View Full Version : Nashville restaurateur to fight state gun law
Nashville restaurateur to fight state gun law
Suit will challenge measure's constitutionality
A well-known Nashville restaurant and bar owner plans to sue today to stop the state's new guns-in-bars law from taking effect later this month.
The case will center on claims that the law would create a public nuisance that threatens the safety of the public, and violates the constitutional rights of restaurant/bar owners, patrons and employees.
Randy Rayburn, owner of the Sunset Grill, Midtown Cafe and Cabana, said advocates pushing the law falsely claimed that nearly 40 other states had similar laws. He said the law creates increased liability for him and other owners and is a matter of public safety.
"They've told more fairy tales than the Brothers Grimm," Rayburn said. "Tennessee is the only state that has a law that specifically authorizes gun permit carriers to carry their weapons into establishments that serve 50 percent or more alcohol."
John Harris, the executive director of the Tennessee Firearms Association, which pushed for the law, said those pursuing the lawsuit are misguided and are trying to derail a legislative initiative that has been contemplated and discussed for more than a decade.
Harris said the idea that the legislature was not fully informed when it enacted the law last month after years of debate "borders on insanity." He said those pushing the suit had ample opportunity through the legislative process to make their arguments and to turn to the courts is an effort to derail the General Assembly's action.
"The problem is they don't get the opportunity to argue, particularly in a circumstance like this, that the legislature was somehow misled in making a policy decision," Harris said. "If no other state had this rule, Tennessee could adopt it and be the first. … The only real remedy they have is to go back to the legislature next year and persuade them they've made a bad policy decision and to change it."
New Set Of Burdens
The lawsuit, to be filed in chancery court in Davidson County, will be the latest turn in one of the most controversial pieces of legislation from the most recent session. The law allows more than 200,000 handgun carry permit owners to bring their weapons into bars and restaurants. One provision of the new law is that any patron carrying a handgun can't consume alcohol.
Technically, in Tennessee, places that serve liquor are classified as restaurants because they also must serve food under the law. Owners of the establishments can place signs barring gun permit holders from bringing their weapons inside, but Rayburn's attorney said the law creates a new set of burdens for owners.
His attorney, David Randolph Smith, said the lack of legal distinction in Tennessee between restaurants and bars means that it is the first state to affirmatively say it is OK to bring guns in bars.
The law is set to take effect July 14, and the suit seeks a temporary restraining order until the case can go to trial to determine the law's constitutionality.
Smith said in this case the state would be aiding and abetting a public nuisance by allowing guns in bars.
"Courts have historically shut down bars with guns in them or where shootings occurred," Smith said. "It's called a nuisance bar. If a bar has shootings in it, it normally gets shut down. But in Tennessee we apparently are going to have 225,000 vigilantes shooting in bars."
http://www.sunsetgrill.com/aboutus
Randy Rayburn
Owner
Sunset Grill, Midtown Cafe, Cabana
2001 Belcourt Avenue
Nashville, TN 37212
615-386-3663
1-866-496-FOOD
Why not give him a call tell him how you are voting with your wallet.
I will definitely eat according to postings. This guy (and area) is super lib. I will consider discrimination suits against these establishments if they are posted but do not have metal detectors or wands at the door. They prohibit legal carry but allow illegal possession inside? If they think that weapons are not entering their establishments illegally, they are totally brain dead!
i'm pretty sure most states simply don't bother to make gay-ass laws to begin with- in Oregon, there are no laws regarding carrying anywhere... bars, hospitals, schools, state buildings, courthouses (not in court rooms, but the lobby and other areas are often fair game).... the only places you cant carry are federal buildings, very specific state places, and privately owned property that's clearly posted at all entrances.
and that's exactly how it ought to be. nobody needs a damn law to tell him where he CAN carry.
But in Tennessee we apparently are going to have 225,000 vigilantes shooting in bars."
I love how anti-gunners always trot a statement like this out. As if there is some magical thing that occurs when someone carries legally into an establishment and they suddenly have an overwhelming urge to shoot someone. It's the whole "concealed carry will lead us back to the wild west" argument over and over and over ad nauseum. Same argument used to protest carry in national parks, wherever. Law-abiding gun owners won't be able to control themselves and are just going to start shooting.
This guy is a total liberal hack. His bar in in the Belcourt area of Trashville, for those of you who don't know Trashville well, think Haight Ashbury district of San Francisco.
I run this zone on duty and I can't even begin to count the number of folks I pop underage, underage PI, and underage DUI who tell me this is where they came from.
Its a stones toss from Vandy and Belmont so plenty of young money about. ABC hammers him about once a year doing underage alcohol buys.
Pisses me off.
:mad:
If the law forced restauranteurs to let people with permits on their premises, I could see an argument. But since he can easily post a sign that says "NO GUNS ... violators will be prosecuted for trespassing" then ... what's the problem, again?
He designates one percent of all sales from his restaurants to non-profit and community organizations. In the last five years alone that has totaled more than $300,000.
he's making $6,000,000 a year with a restaurant?
I'm just going to say this (and yes I haven't read everyone's replies).
If you walk up to my bar and I'm working the door, or behind the bar, and I see any indication that you have a concealed carry on you, I will ask you to see it. If you refuse to show me, you will not come in or be asked to leave. If you show me, and I see a gun, a large knife, a baton, ext, you will be asked to leave and return to your vehicle to remove the weapon, and then you can return. If you refuse, fine your trespassing. Bye Bye to you and your entire party, and you can go in one of two ways both of which are no fun.
This is our right as a property owner, and my right as the person in charge of the security of my patrons. Do I think that every concealed carrier (or any) for that matter are going to cause violence automatically because of their weapon? Absolutely not! But I don't know that person, and I know my bar, and any weapon is a liability in my bar, and I wont have someone loose control of a CC'd gun while i am working.
So there you go. Come to my little bar in Upstate NY with a concealed carry and your leaving law or no law. Alcohol and guns don't mix unless you are among just friends!
BUT I take issue with these insane laws that our government creates that take more and more power away from individuals and property owners, and place them in the hands of the state. In this case it is in reverse, but talking about this like it is some sort of liberal vs conservative battle is a bit off the mark. This is about guns and alcohol mixed together in a small space.
Heavy Metal
07-01-09, 23:38
I'm just going to say this (and yes I haven't read everyone's replies).
If you walk up to my bar and I'm working the door, or behind the bar, and I see any indication that you have a concealed carry on you, I will ask you to see it. If you refuse to show me, you will not come in or be asked to leave. If you show me, and I see a gun, a large knife, a baton, ext, you will be asked to leave and return to your vehicle to remove the weapon, and then you can return. If you refuse, fine your trespassing. Bye Bye to you and your entire party, and you can go in one of two ways both of which are no fun.
This is our right as a property owner, and my right as the person in charge of the security of my patrons. Do I think that every concealed carrier (or any) for that matter are going to cause violence automatically because of their weapon? Absolutely not! But I don't know that person, and I know my bar, and any weapon is a liability in my bar, and I wont have someone loose control of a CC'd gun while i am working.
So there you go. Come to my little bar in Upstate NY with a concealed carry and your leaving law or no law. Alcohol and guns don't mix unless you are among just friends!
BUT I take issue with these insane laws that our government creates that take more and more power away from individuals and property owners, and place them in the hands of the state. In this case it is in reverse, but talking about this like it is some sort of liberal vs conservative battle is a bit off the mark. This is about guns and alcohol mixed together in a small space.
This isn't about bars, it's about resturants that serve alcohol like Applebee's. And anyone who CCW's there cannot themselves drink.
No not if all "bars" need to be listed as restaurants by state law. Which in this case it sounds like the majority do.
Also the carrier not drinking doesn't matter, it doesn't change the fact that there is a weapon in a bar full of drunk people. I've heard that argument before, doesn't fly. Plus it's my job to provide security not my patrons. If they don't feel safe without their gun, they can go home.
Also the carrier not drinking doesn't matter, it doesn't change the fact that there is a weapon in a bar full of drunk people. I've heard that argument before, doesn't fly. Plus it's my job to provide security not my patrons. If they don't feel safe without their gun, they can go home.
hopefully you only admit people that arrived via public transportation or taxi cab as well....
in Virginia there are no "bars"....every place is a restaurant....we currently are only allowed to open carry into an establishment that serves alcohol...
the idea that I can't conceal carry while taking my wife and 2 sons to, say, the aforementioned Applebee's (although, yuck, applebee's), is absolutely ludicrous...
do you have metal detectors at your bar? hope so, because I'm quite certain that the illegal carriers of firearms have no intention of showing you their firearm...
all attitudes like yours ensure is that the only armed people in a given place are the criminals....that doesn't generally seem to work so well for the rest of us...
so thanks for the invitation, but I will graciously stay out of your bar
This is not about the criminal trespass statutes that exist already and give property owners the legal right to refuse admittance to anyone for basically any reason. Its about liberal anti-gun bliss ninnies who can't stand the idea that you and I have a right to carry a weapon for self defense.
trio
Sounds like you want to pick a fight...;) LOL (please don't take that seriously, it's a joke).
First I would say stay out of every bar if that's your attitude. Seriously. Even with your CC, if your that unsure of those around you, a bar is the last place you want to be. Your gun "may" not "will" keep you safe.
Second we have a free service that we provide to our patrons that drives them home at the end of the night. If it is out of a ten mile radius it costs 4 dollars. The town is also walkable for 98% of the towns late night patrons.
Third like I said if you don't trust us, that's fine, leave, we don't need your money. It's not about "illegal" or "legal" in this case, it's about the gun! I could care if it's legal or not, it's on our property, and it's not ours, therefore it leaves. Also did you fail to read the part about if you refuse to do what I ask you leave no matter what we see, ie, the "criminal" I ask that refuses leaves to. Get it? I don't do background checks, or asked to see CC permits, you just walk. Period. It's as black and white of an issue as your opinions seem to be.
This is not about the criminal trespass statutes that exist already and give property owners the legal right to refuse admittance to anyone for basically any reason. Its about liberal anti-gun bliss ninnies who can't stand the idea that you and I have a right to carry a weapon for self defense.
Fair. But don't you think that the National Parks issue is more logical in regards to potentially educating the general public about this right to bare arms? I see where you are coming from, and I think this guy is a bit of a looser (I wont use the word I want to use), because he is crying to the state to pass a law against something that he himself can deal with on his own. He sucks. Fair. I got that!
But I don't see this lawsuit as something that is seriously threatening your rights. In fact, even just by reading what you posted, it sounds pretty much dead in the water.
Sounds like you want to pick a fight...;) LOL (please don't take that seriously, it's a joke).
First I would say stay out of every bar if that's your attitude. Seriously. Even with your CC, if your that unsure of those around you, a bar is the last place you want to be. Your gun "may" not "will" keep you safe.
Second we have a free service that we provide to our patrons that drives them home at the end of the night. If it is out of a ten mile radius it costs 4 dollars. The town is also walkable for 98% of the towns late night patrons.
Third like I said if you don't trust us, that's fine, leave, we don't need your money. It's not about "illegal" or "legal" in this case, it's about the gun! I could care if it's legal or not, it's on our property, and it's not ours, therefore it leaves. I don't do background checks, or asked to see CC permits, you just walk. Period. It's as black and white of an issue as your opinions seem to be.
again, although I disagree with you, I think you are failing to see an important distinction that many of us are trying to make...
if I stayed out of every "bar" in Virginia because I couldn't carry, my restaurant choices would be limited to burger king, mcdonalds, etc...the idea that I should have to disarm myself to enjoy a dinner that doesn't bring with it the chance of a coronary is, personally, unbelievable to me...in those instances now I simply open carry my firearm, but only because that is the law as it is...I would much prefer the ability to CCW
secondly, and I am really not trying to pick a fight, but the only place I am "sure" of those around me is when I am in my house....and I don't think thats paranoid...the kids in VA Tech probably felt "sure" of their surroundings...as did the people in the immigration classes in NY...and the list goes on and on...there is never a time when it isn't my responsibility to ensure my safety and the safety of my family...i'm not sure if thats what you meant, but I find your proposal extremely naive....of course, you probably see mine as extremely paranoid...
Finally, dealing with your third issue, we are just going to have to disagree...a gun, by itself, is no different than a hammer or a car...its just a tool....when its misused by someone is when it becomes an issue....these kind of laws, that prevent permit holders from doing things like this, are stopping the good guys that care about the law...its just that simple...the people that don't care about the law won't give a damn about this one either...and will just carry their illegal weapons wherever the hell they please regardless of the law or private property owner rights
in the end, in a way, we completely agree...I think it should be up to the property owner to decide if people can carry in their establishment...I think the state should have no hand in it...
so, whereas I recognize your right to deny my entry, it is also my right to go somewhere else...which is exactly what I do when I encounter "non-gun" friendly places...but thats how it should be...not some douchebag restaurant owner suing the state
again, although I disagree with you, I think you are failing to see an important distinction that many of us are trying to make...
if I stayed out of every "bar" in Virginia because I couldn't carry, my restaurant choices would be limited to burger king, mcdonalds, etc...the idea that I should have to disarm myself to enjoy a dinner that doesn't bring with it the chance of a coronary is, personally, unbelievable to me...in those instances now I simply open carry my firearm, but only because that is the law as it is...I would much prefer the ability to CCW
secondly, and I am really not trying to pick a fight, but the only place I am "sure" of those around me is when I am in my house....and I don't think thats paranoid...the kids in VA Tech probably felt "sure" of their surroundings...as did the people in the immigration classes in NY...and the list goes on and on...there is never a time when it isn't my responsibility to ensure my safety and the safety of my family...i'm not sure if thats what you meant, but I find your proposal extremely naive....of course, you probably see mine as extremely paranoid...
Finally, dealing with your third issue, we are just going to have to disagree...a gun, by itself, is no different than a hammer or a car...its just a tool....when its misused by someone is when it becomes an issue....these kind of laws, that prevent permit holders from doing things like this, are stopping the good guys that care about the law...its just that simple...the people that don't care about the law won't give a damn about this one either...and will just carry their illegal weapons wherever the hell they please regardless of the law or private property owner rights
in the end, in a way, we completely agree...I think it should be up to the property owner to decide if people can carry in their establishment...I think the state should have no hand in it...
so, whereas I recognize your right to deny my entry, it is also my right to go somewhere else...which is exactly what I do when I encounter "non-gun" friendly places...but thats how it should be...not some douchebag restaurant owner suing the state
We do agree completely actually. If you notice in my first post I stated that I don't think it is up to the state, so we're basically talking about issues from a different angle. Regarding not being able to eat at a restaurant I understand, but the legal language of alcohol laws (in most states) require that any bar be a restaurant. For example we serve chips, and microwave food that no one EVER buys, but we're a "restaurant".
But, you are stating a sense of general distrust of all individuals which I understand, I've been around. I'm well aware of the fact that a gun is a tool. I am also aware of the fact that every tool is a weapon if you hold it right... On a crowded night of high energy (which is every night where I work), someone won't be bringing their hammer into my bar either. I have to say that I think this is far from naive, and rather is very realistic.
Your ability to choose where you go is your right. Honestly this argument to me is the same as the no smoking in bars laws. I work in one, and I smoke. And I LOVE the fact that my bar is smoke free. But I think it is horrible that it is the state that passed a law to force us to do something, rather then us choosing what to do with our own establishment.
Business_Casual
07-02-09, 07:42
If the law forced restauranteurs to let people with permits on their premises, I could see an argument. But since he can easily post a sign that says "NO GUNS ... violators will be prosecuted for trespassing" then ... what's the problem, again?
Exactly. And when he posts that sign, does the law give him and exception for, erm, what's the term? Duty of care? In my non-lawyer way of thinking - if he bans guns on his own and then someone shoots someone inside his establishment, does he have any liability because he didn't do a "good enough" or whatever, job of enforcing his own signs? I'm not sure that makes any sense, but I was thinking if you shovel the sidewalk but leave a big patch of ice you have created a nuisance.
M_P
Also the carrier not drinking doesn't matter, it doesn't change the fact that there is a weapon in a bar full of drunk people. I've heard that argument before, doesn't fly. Plus it's my job to provide security not my patrons. If they don't feel safe without their gun, they can go home.
So it's ok for me or my surviving family to sue the hell out of you if you fail to adequately provide security for me at all times while I am in your establishment and I am injured or killed?
Just want to make sure I understand the logic. I'm to leave one of my means of self-defense in my car, and you'll guarantee my safety at all times, even when I'm in the head taking a leak.
Gotcha.
So much drama.
My approach to businesses like dmcmanus's bar:
Go inside and behave like a polite, unobtrusive patron.
Remember that the first word in "concealed carry permit" is concealed. There's a guy on another board who has a great signature line, "Always carry, never tell."
If for some reason I have failed to conceal my weapon adequately and the bar owner or his designee tells me to leave, offer to settle my bill immediately and then leave without any fanfare.
A property owner has every right to decide who can & cannot stay on his property or patronize his business. If he doesn't want my money when it comes from the same wallet as my CCW permit, that's his choice.
In the interest of total disclosure, step #3 above is purely hypothetical because in all the year's I've been carrying concealed, I have never once been challenged by anyone. Unless the restaurant has metal detectors, you've got to be a flaming moron before someone figures out that you're carrying.
If the law forced restauranteurs to let people with permits on their premises, I could see an argument. But since he can easily post a sign that says "NO GUNS ... violators will be prosecuted for trespassing" then ... what's the problem, again?
Exactly. This restaurant owner is a turd. He's either dumber than a box of rocks and doesn't understand that he can still ban guns at his restaurant, or he's a gun hater with an agenda. So either way he's a turd.
So much drama.
My approach to businesses like dmcmanus's bar:
Go inside and behave like a polite, unobtrusive patron.
Remember that the first word in "concealed carry permit" is concealed. There's a guy on another board who has a great signature line, "Always carry, never tell."
If for some reason I have failed to conceal my weapon adequately and the bar owner or his designee tells me to leave, offer to settle my bill immediately and then leave without any fanfare.
A property owner has every right to decide who can & cannot stay on his property or patronize his business. If he doesn't want my money when it comes from the same wallet as my CCW permit, that's his choice.
In the interest of total disclosure, step #3 above is purely hypothetical because in all the year's I've been carrying concealed, I have never once been challenged by anyone. Unless the restaurant has metal detectors, you've got to be a flaming moron before someone figures out that you're carrying.
Todd this post is perfect, thank you.
whereas I do think that Todd has summed up half of the argument in a fitting manner, his summary ignores the second (and most important to me) part of the argument I was trying to present. Admittedly I did it rather poorly given the early hour of the morning, so I will make one last stab...
the issue is, at least in my state, it is currently illegal for me to do what Todd suggests...
so, I am left with 3 options, which, really, aren't any options at all
1) Break the law, and conceal my weapon
2) Go into said places unarmed
3) Just stay home
Again, as I said earlier, fortunately Virginia allows me the 4th option of open carrying, but I would much, MUCH rather CCW...so we can call that the lesser of 4 evils...
I will watch the Tennessee developments with great interest, since both the gubernatorial candidates in Virginia this fall have supported a similar bill here that has now been vetoed by our resident douchebag 2 years running....
Heavy Metal
07-03-09, 00:09
Also the carrier not drinking doesn't matter, it doesn't change the fact that there is a weapon in a bar full of drunk people. I've heard that argument before, doesn't fly. Plus it's my job to provide security not my patrons. If they don't feel safe without their gun, they can go home.
It seems you do not want to distinguish with a family type resturant that serves some alcohol and a non-family type bar that serves a limited amout of food for legal cover. You seem to be wed to a strawman version of things that do not comport with the word as it actually is.
I think everyone else here understands the difference between Ruby Tuesday's and Moe's Tavern and can behave accordingly.
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