View Full Version : Sling questions
RancidSumo
07-08-09, 11:30
I am looking to get a good sling for my first AR. Up to this point I only have experience with web slings and 1907 slings. I want to get similar use to those two slings but since nobody here seems to use those I figured that I would ask about the other types. Could someone please give me a breakdown of the different types of slings and the advantages and disadvantages of each. Also, I need to know what I need to get in order to attach the slings to my rifle, I don't have it yet (waiting forever for that $47 I paid for shipping to make a difference) so I don't know what type of attachment points it has on it if any. It is a BCM carbine upper and BCM lower with M4 handguards.
Thanks and please don't tell me to use the search function because it doesn't seem to work on this site.
Try these guys: http://www.blueforcegear.com/ . Call them up and talk to them as they are very knowledgeable about their complete product line and will help you understand your needs.
RancidSumo
07-08-09, 13:19
Can I use that Vickers Combat Applications sling like a loop sling if I want to (thinking along the lines of appleseed shoots and the like)? Also, are there sling attachment points on the front and back of a BCM carbine? If not, which ones should I buy?
Good help on sling choice
http://vickerstactical.com/tactical-tips/carbine-slings/
I had a VCAS on my old AR and it was a great sling. Very adjustable and easy to operate.
I have since moved to a Magpul MS2 and ASAP plate. Can go from single point to two point quickly. Takes a little bit of doing, at least for me, to quickly adjust the sling when it is in a two point setup.
Both of the slings are great slings and I don't recommend one over the other.
RancidSumo
07-08-09, 22:16
I can't find anything on how the VCAS is used. Could someone please explain its uses to me?
I can't find anything on how the VCAS is used. Could someone please explain its uses to me?
The VCAS has a slider with a tab on it, that allows you to make a quick adjustment to the length while shooting to add slack to transition the gun over to your weak-side shoulder (or tighten it up to sling it on your back).
RancidSumo
07-08-09, 23:30
I got that, I want to know how it is used to stabilize the rifle while shooting.
I can't find anything on how the VCAS is used. Could someone please explain its uses to me?
http://www.blueforcegear.com/product.cfm?type=cat&cat_id=5&prod_id=79
There is a video on thebottom left.
I got that, I want to know how it is used to stabilize the rifle while shooting.
If you got it adjusted to the correct length, you could wrap your forearm like you would a traditional sling?
As an aside,
If I remember correctly --- this will take some searching to verify or de-bunk, but it might give you something to look for -- Viking Tactics sells a similar quick-adjust sling, and I seem to remember also seeing a "Long range cuff" for sale by them that was a cuff for your arm with a clip on it to attach to their sling and provide some stabilization when desired. You might do some searching for that...
Telecomtodd
07-09-09, 08:58
For those experienced riflemen out there, hold up. He's got a good question.
For shooting applications, slings are used for three positions: prone (lying down on your front), sitting, and kneeling. They are not used for offhand shooting, although there are some specialty slings used to assist for certain tactical offhand shooting applications. There's a couple of ways of shooting offhand - one using your arm as a brace against your body, and the other way is the easiest - grab that handguard and point it. If you have time and want to hit something specifically, use a sling or the first offhand method. Otherwise, let it rip and hope you hit whatever you are aiming for.
The sling is used stabilize the rifle with your skeleton, specifically your opposite arm (if you're a righty, it's on your left).
Other slings are more for carrying applications. Currently I'm looking for the "right" attachment for a neck sling to carry my M4 hands-free when I want to.
I coach/teach precision shooting to smallbore juniors and Boy Scouts. It's a very important matter to get the simple basics mastered before trying anything else. I've taught Gulf war vets and active-duty police officers how to shoot - people who should have gotten all of the basics of shooting, but couldn't hit a paper target offhand at 50 yards.
I'm not joking - met the #3 in command from our local Sheriff's office at our county range, and he picked up an Anschutz 1913 .22 with aperture sights and tried to shoot it like an AR with an ACOG. Missed the paper. 30 seconds of coaching and he was actually hitting black on the paper. Not bad for a $3500 rifle and 20 years on the force - he had a lot of respect for those "damn kids" taking up space on his range.
Basics!
Failure2Stop
07-09-09, 10:26
The way that slings are employed to be a method of retention pretty much eliminate their use as a marksmanship support. The preferred mounting location alone makes them sub-optimal as a stabilization aid.
You have to understand the concept behind theses types of slings- they are made to allow a user a method of retaining the weapon when needing hands for other things, whether than be drawing a pistol, breaching a door, trauma management, etc. The ability to do these things quickly while retaining the weapon on the body is much more important than slinging up and assuming a classic sling supported kneeling position to shoot somebody 500 meters away.
That is not the say that there is no need for the use of a sling as a stabilization aid, simply that most users have found that they can get comparable accuracy with a magazine rested prone a lot faster.
Some precision marksmen use other types of detachable cuff slings. Some that have been recommended to me are:
Quick Cuff (http://www.tacticalintervention.com/quickcuffslingmodeltwo.html)
TAB Gear Sling (http://www.riflesonly.com/store/TAB/sling.html)
I don't have sufficient experience with them to get into any kind of detail about them.
I've used the Vickers sling with moderate success as a marksmanship aide by wrapping it around my forearm. It isn't ideal, but it will work.
RancidSumo
07-09-09, 20:58
Ok, then can anyone please tell me what I need to add to my rifle (if anything) in order to mount a Turner sling? I really like this type of sling and I want to be able to put one on my AR. I may also get one of these VCAS slings for different types of shooting (like a carbine class or something) but for the most part I want to put a Turner sling on it and use it as a marksmanship aid.
i just wanted to give you a heads up, there is a sticky at the top of this page called knowledge based threads. if you read those, you probably wont ever have to visit this site again, though i hope you come back everyday and tell your friends. good luck i went with a blue force padded sling with quick swivels and love it.
If you're unsure of the tactical two point sling, try a boonie packer sling. They cost about $16 w/ free shipping I believe. This is the sling the VCAS is based on. I just ordered one for a spare rifle, so I will test it and compare it to my VCAS. I will try to post a review on it soon.
The VCAS has a slider with a tab on it, that allows you to make a quick adjustment to the length while shooting to add slack to transition the gun over to your weak-side shoulder (or tighten it up to sling it on your back).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXs_3jGejxs
QuietShootr
07-10-09, 00:44
Ok, then can anyone please tell me what I need to add to my rifle (if anything) in order to mount a Turner sling? I really like this type of sling and I want to be able to put one on my AR. I may also get one of these VCAS slings for different types of shooting (like a carbine class or something) but for the most part I want to put a Turner sling on it and use it as a marksmanship aid.
Nevermind.
RancidSumo
07-10-09, 01:06
Huh? Does the reason for editing imply that nobody here uses a sling as a marksmanship aid?
I can see the use of a tactical sling in some applications and I will probably pick one up for those uses but I like to use them for marksmanship as well. My question regarding mounting points comes from the fact that I have never handled a carbine so I don't know what sling points come on it and my rifle is not here yet so I can't just go look at it.
What sling swivels/attachment points do you have on your AR now?
If you've got standard swivels, then attaching a Turner or a 1907 type should be pretty straight forward.
Edit....I just read your above post.
Without knowing how your attachment points are set up, it's going to be hard to tell you how to set your sling up.
RancidSumo
07-10-09, 01:25
Edit: I saw your edit
I guess on the most basic level what I am getting at is what type of attachment point is on a standard M4 stock? If none, what can I get to add one?
Edit: I saw your edit
I guess on the most basic level what I am getting at is what type of attachment point is on a standard M4 stock? If none, what can I get to add one?
This is my Colt 6520, which is stock except for the TA44R-4 Compact ACOG.
The Colt collapsable stocks have both a bottom attachment point that mimics the position found on a M16A1 or A2 fixed stock, as well as a slot cut in the back that allows you to thread a sling through at a horizontal level.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Colt%20Rifles/P1000204.jpg
Failure2Stop
07-10-09, 01:32
The mounting points will look the same as a full sized rifle- one behind the bayonet lug and one at the toe of the stock.
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/v/vspfiles/photos/BCM-URG-M4-16-4.jpg
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/v/vspfiles/photos/Stock%20Only%20M4%20Black%20-%20GEN2-3.jpg
That being said- sticking on a Turner Sling is kinda like putting racing slicks on a rally car. It works, but is counter to the purpose. But hey, do whatever pleases you.
Huh? Does the reason for editing imply that nobody here uses a sling as a marksmanship aid?
I can see the use of a tactical sling in some applications and I will probably pick one up for those uses but I like to use them for marksmanship as well. My question regarding mounting points comes from the fact that I have never handled a carbine so I don't know what sling points come on it and my rifle is not here yet so I can't just go look at it.
FWIW this site is or was primarily made up of individuals that use tactical slings for most applications. M4's are not necessarily something you would expect to have superior accuracy as perhaps a "SPR" though they are depended on for better accuracy then say a "SBR". It's a rifle and sure you want to be able to depend on its accuracy but this particular weapon is designed more for high capacity as well as high mobility for use in a fight. I use my sling as you describe in longer range applications though what I am getting from your question is "what kind of sling would you use for a marksmanship aid" I don't think you'll get a great response here, maybe from the 3 gun competitors. It's possible most readers just aren't understanding why you would have a carbine and be asking what kind of sling you should get, anyone answering with a sling suggestion that would keep this rifle close to you need not answer? Perhaps the edit was due to the fact he realized he couldn't help you. As far as sling points, go to the manufacturers webpage and look at your model, there should be sling points listed, then you can decided if you need different or more sling points. Again I would bet the majority here have wrapped their arm around their sling a second time to stabilize their weapon, that said I doubt they were shopping for a sling for that primary use. A single point sling cannot even be used in that fashion unless you remove it from your chest and attach it to the front of your rifle. A two point can be used, almost any two point. A three point for me personally fails to substantiate its existence
The way that slings are employed to be a method of retention pretty much eliminate their use as a marksmanship support. The preferred mounting location alone makes them sub-optimal as a stabilization aid.
You have to understand the concept behind theses types of slings- they are made to allow a user a method of retaining the weapon when needing hands for other things, whether than be drawing a pistol, breaching a door, trauma management, etc. The ability to do these things quickly while retaining the weapon on the body is much more important than slinging up and assuming a classic sling supported kneeling position to shoot somebody 500 meters away.
That is not the say that there is no need for the use of a sling as a stabilization aid, simply that most users have found that they can get comparable accuracy with a magazine rested prone a lot faster.
Some precision marksmen use other types of detachable cuff slings. Some that have been recommended to me are:
Quick Cuff (http://www.tacticalintervention.com/quickcuffslingmodeltwo.html)
TAB Gear Sling (http://www.riflesonly.com/store/TAB/sling.html)
I don't have sufficient experience with them to get into any kind of detail about them.
I would like to retract my post and re-direct you to this answer. This is a perfect answer to your question considering your base membership of this site and their need or use of a sling IMO. I will still leave my post so no one assumes I bashed anyone :D thank you F2S this answer put mine to shame :D You are in fact a subject matter expert and I for one appreciate your replies to the OP this will no doubt be helpful to someone.
I tend to use the slot that Templar mentioned rather than the metal attachment point, and actually remove that attachment point from my M4 stocks. I find that the metal sling attachment tends to jab into me at times and that removing it makes things much more comfortable.
RancidSumo
07-10-09, 08:25
I understand that this isn't the type of sling that most of you use but I was serious when I said that this rifle would be used for everything. I plan on going and getting some training with it but at the same time I will be using it as a range toy, plinker, praire dig hunter, you name it. A sling like the VCAS is good for some of those applications but not others which is why I want the option to mount both.
I am sill in school and don't have the finds to buy a differnt rifle for each thing I want to do with one so I have to make this one work. I am not LEO or military and I don't ever plan on being in a gun fight so that is not my primary concern; I will take it into consideration but I am not going to base my entire rifle off of it.
If this forum isn't the place for people like me then I will leave, just let me know.
RancidSumo
07-10-09, 09:19
That being said, Templar and Failure2Stop have both answered my main question.
Thanks.
I understand that this isn't the type of sling that most of you use but I was serious when I said that this rifle would be used for everything. I plan on going and getting some training with it but at the same time I will be using it as a range toy, plinker, praire dig hunter, you name it. A sling like the VCAS is good for some of those applications but not others which is why I want the option to mount both.
I am sill in school and don't have the finds to buy a differnt rifle for each thing I want to do with one so I have to make this one work. I am not LEO or military and I don't ever plan on being in a gun fight so that is not my primary concern; I will take it into consideration but I am not going to base my entire rifle off of it.
If this forum isn't the place for people like me then I will leave, just let me know.
Dude we don't want to run you off, it just took a couple of iterations of questions to really get to us understanding what you were wanting, and then, honestly, it didn't make a lot of sense from our point of reference. By all means, it's your rifle and you're welcome to accessorize as you see fit :) And even if we all went "huh?" at your goals, I promise that we're all much happier to see you trying to practice marksmanship fundamentals, vs. taking your carbine out to bumpfire into the dirt :D
Do stick around!
Dude we don't want to run you off, it just took a couple of iterations of questions to really get to us understanding what you were wanting, and then, honestly, it didn't make a lot of sense from our point of reference. By all means, it's your rifle and you're welcome to accessorize as you see fit :) And even if we all went "huh?" at your goals, I promise that we're all much happier to see you trying to practice marksmanship fundamentals, vs. taking your carbine out to bumpfire into the dirt :D
Do stick around!
Well said. No worries man, it was just different frames of reference. I still routinely pull slings off of one carbine and put it on another when I need an adjustable 2pt. for something I don't have one on.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Colt%20Rifles/P1000204.jpg
I hope you laid it down easy before taking the photo.
I'm just getting used to the VCAS on my 6920 before I head to the range for the first time. As a leftie, I had to get the front sling side swivel moved to the other side. Since it attached with roll pins, it took a week in the hands of a gunsmith.
RancidSumo
08-04-09, 15:36
I've got one more question so it will probably be better to revive this thread than to start a new one.
I'm ordering a VCAS today but need to know about the front attachment point. I have the one under the barrel so do I need to get a side swivel? If so, where can I get one (not a rail attachment) and will I be able to attach it myself? Will the BFG UWL work or is it not as good as the standard type?
Thomas M-4
08-04-09, 16:09
I have a VCAS push button sling in the mail right now waiting for it to arrive. With a DD rail mounted pb sling attachment point and will mount the other end to my ctr butt stock.
You can get a genuine Colt side swivel here: http://www.specializedarmament.com/products/SWIVEL_KIT_COLT_M4_M4A1_SIDE_MOUNTING_SLING_4PCS-349-4.html .
While you can put it on yourself, I am told it takes some understanding of how to do so. I bet a search here or on Google will yield useful results...
RancidSumo
08-04-09, 20:52
Can I use it with the bottom swivel if I don't have any other attachments hanging off my rifle? It would be temporary until I get a side rail attachment to go on the MOE grip I will be ordering along with the sling.
RancidSumo
08-04-09, 21:27
Sorry if it is a dumb question it's just that I have only seen them being used with attachment points on the side and never on the bottom. This made me want to know if there is a problem with using that attachment point.
Sorry if it is a dumb question it's just that I have only seen them being used with attachment points on the side and never on the bottom. This made me want to know if there is a problem with using that attachment point.
You may want to look into the Blue Force Universal Wire Loop - with it, you can even move the forward attach point of your VCAS back to between the delta nut and the handguard. Check out this thread (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=24352).
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