View Full Version : the problem with chest rigs
calicojack
07-09-09, 15:02
It doesn't seem to matter which manufacturer you get your chest rig from, be it Tactical Tailor (http://www.tacticaltailor.com), HSGI (http://www.highspeedgearinc.com), Eagle (http://www.eagleindustries.com/home.php), OSOE (http://www.originalsoegear.com) or countless others, The stock shoulder straps are pieces of 1-2 inch pieces of webbing that form an X on your back.
Tactical Tailor Mini-Mav
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff298/arolfsen/reviews/tt%20mini%20mav/DSCN1278.jpg
OSOE Micro Rig(s)
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff298/arolfsen/reviews/micro%20ak%20rig/DSCN1271.jpg
HSGI Warlord series
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff298/arolfsen/reviews/warlord/DSCN1283.jpg
That is to say that they criss cross each other to stabilize the chest rig. There are a few methods to correct this, but each piece of kit is designed for a specific chest rig. For example: Tactical Tailor has produced the "x-harness" which fits the one and two piece "MAVS", however it does not fit the mini-mav. HSGI has an entire back piece upgrade for their dach and warlord series chest rigs.
After finding this picture on GOTX, I emailed John Willis at OSOE for more information about it.
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d165/emagdnima/Gear/OSOE.jpg
This is the OSOE H-Harness..... and it can be made to fit ANY chest rig currently on the market. Just let John know what rig you have, what size buckles it has attached to it, and he can make it up for you. So as I have his Micro Ak chest rig and his Micro Rig Pals(which came stock with the criss crossing shoulder straps), I ordered one. Just to see how much more comfortable it was, and whether it worked well. within a couple of days I had it in.
If you will, please forgive my mannequin. i haven't had a chance to order a proper one yet.
The Front interfaces just like any other strap setup would. one buckle on each side at the top, and one buckle under each arm.
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff298/arolfsen/reviews/osoe%20h%20harness/DSCN1317.jpg
The Big Difference, however, is in the back. instead of the straps intersecting and forming an X, OSOE has bridged the two with a cross bar, thus forming an X. I have been asked already, and posed the question to john. The H-harness does not come with pals on it. the way it works is the h-bar is actually two pieces held together with hook and loop. You run the straps from your hydration carrier through that, and then attach it at the waist belt.
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff298/arolfsen/reviews/osoe%20h%20harness/DSCN1319.jpg
Should you so choose to add a hydration pouch, the rig comes standard with a tube retention loops
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff298/arolfsen/reviews/osoe%20h%20harness/DSCN1318.jpg
Another great feature, that i wasn't aware of prior to ordering it, is that the shoulder straps are padded. Personally I find this setup a great deal more comfortable than the criss crossed straps, as those tend to irritate my neck; the h bar sits a tad below the neck line.
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff298/arolfsen/reviews/osoe%20h%20harness/DSCN1316.jpg
so there it is. an easy, comfortable fix to anyone wanting to ditch the stock straps from their chest rigs.
anyways. you know the drill. i don't work for the man. i just love his stuff. by now you should know how to get in touch with him, he has several online vendors, and his own website.
its always good to have options but i missed the part where the x was the problem?
its always good to have options but i missed the part where the x was the problem?
I know an LCD or three that were positively confounded by which straps to put their head and arms through. Of course, these are the same types that are similarly confused by three point slings.
I have found that the H-straps need less to no adjustment when moving back and forth between bulky and less-so clothing.
I'm not saying there isn't anything wrong with the x, though there was not problem explained that this is a solution too is all.
When in an X configuration, the straps rub the sides of the neck. Lots of us hate that. I run mine as an H unless I'm wearing it over armor w/collar, but even than it's less of a pain to just leave it as an H. He mentioned it immediately above he last photo in the OP, you just didn't catch it.
For me, it's a problem solved by the use of some simple shock cord tied to the straps across the shoulder blades, but it's a free-market economy and a nice piece of work.
When in an X configuration, the straps rub the sides of the neck. Lots of us hate that. I run mine as an H unless I'm wearing it over armor w/collar, but even than it's less of a pain to just leave it as an H. He mentioned it immediately above he last photo in the OP, you just didn't catch it.
For me, it's a problem solved by the use of some simple shock cord tied to the straps across the shoulder blades, but it's a free-market economy and a nice piece of work.
i see it now, thanks for pointing it out, i was only curious, it seamed there was a solution though no problem except maybe personal preference.
I used to think padded was the way to go, then Eagle changed their FB chest rig from padded to wider non-padded. I was trying to find one of the old versions and broke down and picked up the newer one, and am glad that I did. I couldn't sell off that old padded version fast enough.
I'd be interested in trying out an H if it had non-padded straps. I've worn my x through more than a couple 3-day classes and while the neck-rubbing has occurred it hasn't been catastrophic.
Check out the ATS Modular M4 Chest Rig, mine works great, easy on/ easy off. http://www.atstacticalgear.com/cgi/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=ST-3197
I hated the neck rub, three patrols a day. Wake up - maybe eat - patrol - get back and clean gear and prep for next patrol - eat - patrol - get back and clean gear and prep for next patrol - go to gym - eat - get a couple hours of z's - twilight patrol - get back and prep, go back to sleep. And that was when we had a base to operate out of and garrison down a little.
A lot of donning X straps and a lot of rubbing. Most of us went with quick release plate carriers and pouches instead, but I liked having the small rig on top of the carrier. Wish that strap set was available at the time. We had to do small mods ourselves, which were OK. That, though, looks great.
calicojack
07-10-09, 10:18
Check out the ATS Modular M4 Chest Rig, mine works great, easy on/ easy off. http://www.atstacticalgear.com/cgi/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=ST-3197
did i mention that the OSOE rig can be made to fit ANY chest rig? The ats h harness only fits their stuff right?
yellow visor dude, i'm working on getting you an answer on that non-padded version.
Follow up question...
Is it possible to adjust the size of the cross strap? I'm a pretty scrawny dude and at first glance that strap appears too wide for me.
Website or contact info for the maker?
calicojack
07-10-09, 10:30
it is. i'm off to wally world to buy a battery for the nikon. i'll have some pics of that specific item for you when i get back.
John does great work, but I am curious as to how his solution is any better or different than buying the solution from the original manufacturer, unless John's rig can be RE-configured for any other rig.
calicojack
07-10-09, 12:20
John does great work, but I am curious as to how his solution is any better or different than buying the solution from the original manufacturer, unless John's rig can be RE-configured for any other rig.
that's what i said. it can fit anything from the TT mini-mav to the hsgi warlord to the eagle universal rig. and as of yet, eagle has not made a different harness for their rigs, and the TT x-harness doesn't fit the mini-mav
that's what i said. it can fit anything from the TT mini-mav to the hsgi warlord to the eagle universal rig. and as of yet, eagle has not made a different harness for their rigs, and the TT x-harness doesn't fit the mini-mav
So, you buy one of them, and you can fit it across the multiple chest rigs that folks tend to own, or do you have to buy one for each chest rig? That's the question I was asking regarding RE-configuration.
"Just let John know what rig you have, what size buckles it has attached to it, and he can make it up for you. "
That seems to imply one rig per chest rig.
Just making sure I understand correctly.
calicojack
07-10-09, 13:31
So, you buy one of them, and you can fit it across the multiple chest rigs that folks tend to own, or do you have to buy one for each chest rig? That's the question I was asking regarding RE-configuration.
"Just let John know what rig you have, what size buckles it has attached to it, and he can make it up for you. "
That seems to imply one rig per chest rig.
Just making sure I understand correctly.
oh. right. now i get what you are saying. the answer is kinda not really complicated but it's going to be easy to confuse. The rig is compatible with chest rigs with simular sized buckles. IE: if you order a harness that uses 1" buckles, it will fit ANY chest rig that uses 1" buckles. If you order a harness with 1.5" buckles, likewise it will only fit rigs that use that size buckle.
RAM Engineer
07-10-09, 13:45
I've never had a problem with x-harnesses (padded or unpadded) rubbing my neck. Some people like them, some don't. Some like padding, some don't. I don't think there is a "one-size-fits-all" solution, but options are always a good thing.
calicojack
07-10-09, 14:10
Follow up question...
Is it possible to adjust the size of the cross strap? I'm a pretty scrawny dude and at first glance that strap appears too wide for me.
Website or contact info for the maker?
from john
We can but it defeats the purpose. If a guy doesn’t need the padding he is probably running it over armor in which case the x straps work. But yes we can. If a guy want to pay for it we will make it but the cordura will roll to the point of the 1.5 web and be useless.
Hmm,
Maybe that's why Eagle uses 2".
I can tell you absolutely from my experience with the Eagle, 2" unpadded is 10x better than 1.5" padded. At least for me.
I think I'm going to wait and see if ATS comes out with their molle-only rig. They use unpadded straps too.
Failure2Stop
07-10-09, 17:27
This has nothing to do with the OSOE product, but rather with the thread title-
the problem with chest rigs
From my perspective, the real "problem" is that people think they need chest rigs, and set them up to carry their entire ammo stack and a kitchen sink.
Anyway, back to your regularly scheduled program. . .
In some cases, depending on the class, you do need them. It's in how you use them that makes the difference.
I agree with Rob. It depends what your application is. Are you on your feet the entire time? In and out of vehicles? What's your load? Do you need low profile for your application? So many variables that chest rigs ranging from the basic Blackhawk 5.56mm Pouches to the HSGI Denali make sense to a particular operator/mission. That being said, there is also a place for a harnessed load bearing system or a straight belt rig. It wouldn't make sense to wear an LBV system if you are conducting mounted ops, nor would it make a whole lot of sense to do a two week foot patrol with a proper fighting load (300 rounds) in just a chest rig.
I do think that some chest rigs are overkill though. I've never used the Denali or Silverthrone, so I can't say from experience, but I imagine all those pouches stacked over your mags will cause problems. $.02
calicojack
07-10-09, 19:14
I agree with Rob. It depends what your application is. Are you on your feet the entire time? In and out of vehicles? What's your load? Do you need low profile for your application? So many variables that chest rigs ranging from the basic Blackhawk 5.56mm Pouches to the HSGI Denali make sense to a particular operator/mission. That being said, there is also a place for a harnessed load bearing system or a straight belt rig. It wouldn't make sense to wear an LBV system if you are conducting mounted ops, nor would it make a whole lot of sense to do a two week foot patrol with a proper fighting load(300 rounds) in just a chest rig.
I do think that some chest rigs are overkill though. I've never used the Denali or Silverthrone, so I can't say from experience, but I imagine all those pouches stacked over your mags will cause problems. $.02
ever see the mookie war rig?
Looks good. I've never had my hands on it, but I like the additional modularity. Thanks for the heads up.
I don't like the way the straps cut into my neck . Changing the strap arrangement may be something I would look into though.
I do like running a good vest/plate carrier over using a chest rig, but in the end unless you are gearing up for a deployment or work in a tactical environment regularly then spending money on high speed gear is all just playing soldier on a bigger budget than you had as a kid.
Backyard guerillas with airsoft guns?
It's in how you use them that makes the difference.
Exactly. Pack and use them smartly, and they are GTG.
Failure2Stop
07-13-09, 04:39
Sorry for interjecting a hijack into an endorsement without explaination, as I meant it more as a thought point than a deliberate discussion.
My point is that a properly setup belt kit will out-perform a chest-rig in pretty much all circumstances. I won't say that it is the solution for everyone, but you really have to think about it for a bit before you reject it. If you are basing your traning primarily around a concealed pistol with the long-gun as an unsupported platform, it does make sense to train with your concealed piece and wear an ammo bearing platform of some kind (chest rig or go-bag). To be clear, this is not my training path, so my opinon is not necessarily the last word on the matter :o.
However, since I dont see too many people wearing a chest-rig over a concealment garment it seems a bit moot to me anyway. A simple kydex holster stuck to the belt, while not the exact same as a concealed draw, can be a viable training method.
Now, I am not saying that everyone should throw out their chest-rigs and buy Crye Blast Belts, but rather that sometimes people jump head-first into the chest-rig solution simply because that is all they see as an option. If you use a chest-harness and you are happy with it, rock on.
The belt-rig can be an economical and applicable method of carriage. By moving the magazines from the chest to the belt-line reloads are more efficient. The belt-line gives more linear real-estate for necessary items- it is easy to fit 2-4 pistol mags, 2-4 rifle mags, a dump pouch, bleeder kit, multi-tool, pistol holster, and a small necessaries pouch, all comfortably and efficiently carried. They are very easy to don or ditch, and without all that crap on your chest you can get into a nice prone (spread-leg or cocked-leg), wear a pack without screwing up stock placement, and bear the weight in the most comfortable location on the body. You could easily wear a minimalist belt-rig with a small pack without looking like you are reenacting BlackHawk Down.
For an example- the ATS War Belt is $40, and a decent liner belt will run about $20. $60 and you are ready to start mounting stuff. There are certainly other options that are more expensive and potentially more comfortable or adjustable, but mine does everything I want it to do at a price that is easy on the wallet.
To me, if I am putting stuff on my chest, it needs to be a distinct benefit that cannot be gained another way or to add to a necessity. If I am wearing something on my chest I want it to stop bullets. Just because I have it stuck to my chest does not necessarily mean that I need to cover it in mags. I will use it to increase load carriage if necessary, but not out of hand unless the circumstance dictates otherwise.
Unfortunately, there are extremely limited options for morale patches on the belt-rig, so it may be difficult to let people know how cool you are without telling them directly (I'm lookin at you, SeALs) ;).
Anyway, just my thought on the matter since I poked the ant-hill.
Similarly, from my frame of reference, I think the belt is a bad idea. My take, as a non-professional, is that everything I do should work with my concealed carry setup. That means that adding a gear belt over the top is a bad idea. Ironically I see some people poopoo the chest rig as being "tacticool" (or choose your derogatory term), when in fact it's typically a better option for those in my shoes than a load carrying belt and a drop holster.
Which brings up a point that if the chest rig in question requires you to also strap on a drop holster, you're probably doing it wrong or doing yourself a disservice.
I understand most people choose a particular setup for a tactical class.
In a true SHTF situation, skills learned and honed in a class are viable and relavent, but having kit that is meant to make the user more comfortable or effective in a class isn't necessarily going to be the most practical in battle.
I like belt rigs, and I like chest rigs and plate carriers, etc, as well as any combination of. It is important to keep in mind that in an urban environment, the probability of fighting from a vehicle is very high. If you run kit solely mounted on a belt rig, you're not effective. A go-bag should only act as a ditch bag or be used when you're not properly outfitted with your normal kit.
If you don't own a car, wear a belt rig - haha! J/K
Failure2Stop
07-13-09, 11:58
I understand most people choose a particular setup for a tactical class.
I am not sure what you are referring to here, but there are very good reasons to choose either a belt or chest rig. If you look at Rob_s' employment of a chest rig it is to carry sufficient ammo to the line to continue training. In this aspect I see no fault, as he had stated that he is primarily concerned with solid concealed pistol skills with the long gun as a weapon of opportunity. If you look at it from an average grunt perspective it makes more sense to go fully jocked up, since that is what you will be operating in all the time. If you look at it from the more variable mission profile, a belt makes perfect sense.
In a true SHTF situation, skills learned and honed in a class are viable and relavent, but having kit that is meant to make the user more comfortable or effective in a class isn't necessarily going to be the most practical in battle.
I absolutely agree, but once again I am unsure of how you are directing you criticism. Using a chest harness as a method of keeping a gun running in a fixed format course makes sense if the user is giving priority to the concealed pistol. You have to remember that most people that attend these kinds of training events are not preparing for military operations, but rather trying to gather skills for unlikely but dire circumstances in which they may need to protect their themselves and/or their families.
Those that march to the sound of the guns should know exactly what their base-line equipment is. For many of them, it is a belt-rig supported by different levels of upper-body armor and degrees of overtness. The knowledgable and experienced shooter will know that training the core equipment profile is the most efficient method. If every time you reload your primary (which is the long-gun) you draw from the 9:00 mag pouch the more efficient and habitual that motion will become. If you train to reload off the chest 1/3 of the time, off the belt 1/3 of the time, and out of a go-bag 1/3 of the time, you are only 1/3 as good as you could be. Now that is a simplified explaination, as each user should be able to reload from every pouch, but the process and cycle remain consistent. Experience teaches that the belt is the default setting due to it's efficiency and simplicity. The steps from pistol rig to a fighting rifle support are not that excessive. It is called "first line" for a reason; it is the first thing you put on to be able to adequately perform your duty, the bare minimum. Everything after that is a plus- more armor, more med, more ammo, more comm, more boom.
I agree with enthusiasm that training must support use- but training can also indicate how use might be improved. We do not just train to become better at that which we already know and do, but to learn and develop better ways to do that which must be done, and what to use when doing it. If in training we find that a certain setup provides significant benefit over the traditional method, and there is no tactical shortfall because of it, why would one not choose that route? As armor becomes more and more refined it becomes cut higher and higher away from the waist to permit movement and flexibility. This higher cut makes access to items on the armor more inefficient. This is where the belt-system really steps in for shooters- permitting rapid access without the impediment of armor cut as it was in years past. My BALCS/SPEAR armor basically covers from my clavicle to my navel- more than enough room to fit a minimalsit belt rig. If wearing concealment cut armor and plates, the sides are completely available for a full belt setup.
I personally know now that should I find myself in some kind of need for big guns I can strap on a belt system with everything I could reasonably want in about the same amount of time it takes me to stick my G19 into a VMII without putting a bullet through my ass. I would have to reasonably say that if I don't have that much time I am probably not going to have enough time to do much more than grab my rifle and go and fight with whatever is in the gun and on my body.
Just as one should remember that what is comfortable is not always applicable, just because the way you are familiar with worked for you does not mean that it is the most efficient or evolved.
It is important to keep in mind that in an urban environment, the probability of fighting from a vehicle is very high.
If you ride around in a hostile urban environment in vehicles, the probability of fighting from a vehicle is very high. If you intend on getting into a fight from your vehicle, I would certainly hope that you are wearing a full armor package. If you are in any kind of hostile urban environment I would expect to be wearin no less than a full armor package and a helmet. If your duties dictate that that is your standard operating environment I would expect that all training be conducted in that level of protection and the load that the situation demands.
If you run kit solely mounted on a belt rig, you're not effective.
Well then you and I, and a bunch of well-established, proven, very proficient guys are going to have to disagree. Now just in case there is a communication shortfall, I am not saying that the only way to operate is to carry everything on a belt. It is certainly reasonable, if not expected, to increase ammo carriage when increasing protection levels due to mission profile by adding chest/armor mounted items.
A go-bag should only act as a ditch bag or be used when you're not properly outfitted with your normal kit.
What if you work in a semi-permissive environment and it is considered socially unacceptable to run around in a CIRAS with 12 magazines and 4 frags hanging off of you? What if you happen to be one of the thousands of people that fit in that category? What if the only time you will be able to employ your rifle is when you are nose to nose with an ambush and your vehicle is immobile?
I would say that there are some very good reasons to train with a go-bag. I would also say that if you covertly wore a pistol, pistol mags and a rifle mag on a concealable belt setup you would be another step ahead.
If you don't own a car, wear a belt rig - haha! J/K
I have done more than one counter-ambush from a vehicle wearing a belt-rig. Properly set up, it works just fine, thank-you.
I find that when discussing gear and training it is imperitive to not fall into thinking that one perspective is the only relevant perspective. It is also inadvisable to make absolute statements, as invariably someone will come along to point out the exception that never came to mind because of one's limited perspective.
Now, I just typed a lot of words in response to a rather short post, and I am a bit concerned that Jake might take this as a personal attack. Please do not. I have no intention to question your credibility or proficiency, my intent is only to share my knowledge and experience with those wanting it. I do not fancy myself the One True Tactical Guru, but rather a guy that has learned a lot from good dudes that were willing to share with and teach me. Oh how lucky we are, to stand on the shoulders of giants.
militarymoron
07-13-09, 13:17
Just as one should remember that what is comfortable is not always applicable, just because the way you are familiar with worked for you does not mean that it is the most efficient or evolved.
I find that when discussing gear and training it is imperitive to not fall into thinking that one perspective is the only relevant perspective. It is also inadvisable to make absolute statements, as invariably someone will come along to point out the exception that never came to mind because of one's limited perspective.
wise words to take heed of, IMHO - for everyday life in general; not only guns and gear. well said F2S.
F2S,
I like what you say. I feel as though I came off out of context; tongue in cheek doesn't necessarily come off in text - but at the same time, I've been countered with a lot of points that I hadn't addressed.
A go-bag should ABSOLUTELY be trained with, but to make that your primary platform to fight off doesn't make much sense to me. It is a reactionary piece of kit, regardless of whether you are LE/military/civilian. That's all I was conveying, in fewer words.
Running with just a belt rig in a vehicle also doesn't make sense to me. You do it, obviously. I have done it before as well, and found it to be difficult to reach any pouches for reloads. I am not ignorant to the fact that you and others have trained more and found your niche with a belt rig. I rebuked my harness system immediately after my first contact in exchange for a field-rigged 6 mag pouch chestpiece. As soon as that deployment was over, I invested in a basic chest rig and modified it and supplemented it (with belt kits) during subsequent deployments. You like belts in vehicles, I like chest rigs in vehicles. Different strokes for different folks.
I am not from the school of chest rigs being the end-all to kit.
...That being said, there is also a place for a harnessed load bearing system or a straight belt rig. It wouldn't make sense to wear an LBV system if you are conducting mounted ops, nor would it make a whole lot of sense to do a two week foot patrol with a proper fighting load (300 rounds) in just a chest rig.
This would be an interesting conversation to have if we didn't have to wait 24 hours to see a reply. But I enjoy it regardless. And I'm glad you fight counter-ambushes from your belt. I didn't, and I won't.
Failure2Stop
07-13-09, 18:54
Jake- just to be clear, I am approaching this as a conversation, an exchange of ideas and copncepts, not an argument, not an "I'm right, you're wrong" position.
F2S,
I like what you say. I feel as though I came off out of context; tongue in cheek doesn't necessarily come off in text - but at the same time, I've been countered with a lot of points that I hadn't addressed.
Yup, I am guilty of that, I tend to wax eloquent without provocation.
Once again though, none of my discussion was to say that you were wrong, but rather to give my perspective on what works for me and guys I work with and/or train. I have kind of a unique position in life that permits me access to some pretty cool stuff, and I get to see how numerous different concepts pan out and what it takes to get them to work in comparision to each other.
A go-bag should ABSOLUTELY be trained with, but to make that your primary platform to fight off doesn't make much sense to me. It is a reactionary piece of kit, regardless of whether you are LE/military/civilian. That's all I was conveying, in fewer words.
I see your point, but I would ask that you remember that to some, the go-bag is their only source of ammo beside what they try to unobtrusively stick to themselves. I certainly do not think that the go-bag is a spectacular piece of kit, I have been looking for a viable replacement for it for a while.
Running with just a belt rig in a vehicle also doesn't make sense to me. You do it, obviously. I have done it before as well, and found it to be difficult to reach any pouches for reloads.
Ah, I see the disconnect.
We never ever ever reload off our bodies while fighting from the vehicle. Well, frankly, we at least try to avoid it if at all possible, since shit does happen and things do go awry. Having mags, frags, and smoke setup thoughtfully inside the vehicle is a key way to ensure that if you do have to unass the vehicle, you still have a full load-out on your body.
I am not from the school of chest rigs being the end-all to kit.
nor am I from the "belt-kit or die" camp ;).
I really was simply trying to point out that there are other options than a chest rig covered with the entire BlackHawk! catalogue and stuffed to the gills.
And I'm glad you fight counter-ambushes from your belt. I didn't, and I won't.
Nor have I ;), and I certainly wouldn't tell just anyone how to conduct any tactical operation without a clear understanding of background, need, skill, and an agreed upon monetary compensation number :D.
Sidewinder6
07-18-09, 10:10
Good discussion here.
As a person who does not roll heavy, I have to go with the perspective of F2S but mainly because of the primary issue of your initial profile. Having worked for years in semi & non-permissive environments, I have found your initial status mandates a lighter approach to the way you gear up. Your limitations are your authorities.
I am also a person who thinks lighter and faster beats heavy but again, that is a mission driven thing. Some people like Fords, some Chevys.
Lighter IS faster, every time. What does your AR look like?
Rhetorical. Don't reply to that.
Sidewinder6
07-18-09, 12:08
Rhetorical. Don't reply to that.
At home? :D I dont mind.
It's an N4, 14.5 w/ aac blackout, T1. DDlite 7".
7" DD lite rail, no VFG.
calicojack
09-14-09, 03:57
hey just an update. john has added one more row of webbing on these in order to make his hydration carrier work a bit better with the harness.
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff298/arolfsen/john/DSCF0266.jpg
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff298/arolfsen/john/DSCF0267.jpg
the hydration carrier is going to sit higher or lower depending on where you run your rig. i run mine high on my chest, not down around my belly, so it sits lower on me.
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff298/arolfsen/reviews/osoe%20hydration/DSCF0281.jpg
F2S...could we see some photo examples of your rig and others who work with you? Thanks
Failure2Stop
09-14-09, 13:23
F2S...could we see some photo examples of your rig and others who work with you? Thanks
Right now I am in a "heavy" role- so my kit isn't really how I prefer it.
If you really want I can re-hash pics of vests with soft armor and plates and belts, though what I call "heavy" some might consider light, since I don't have to deal with belt-fed guns.
I will cobble my preferred belt setup together and get a pic of it later, but I don't have the PC with me to illustrate integration.
No hurry...stay safe...just like to see more options and would really enjoy your philosophy on its integration
Failure2Stop
09-22-09, 23:47
Finally got back and sorted out and charged my camera and uploaded a few pics.
Here you can see my belt configured to be a stand-alone support item. As pictured it carries 2 pistol mags, 3 rifle mags, a bleeder kit, a light, a multitool, a pistol, as well as any bits and bobs I stuff into my admin pouch and/or dump pouch.
http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm174/Fail2Stop/Belt-H.jpg
This is a top-down view to show roughly where everything sits on the belt in relation to the body. Yes, the holster is forward of the trouser seam.
http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm174/Fail2Stop/Belt-HTop.jpg
This is the belt setup for use with heavy armor.
It carries 2 pistol mags, 1 frag grenade, dumper, admin, multitool, and pistol.
The pistol pouches have to move slightly toward 9:00 to clear a rifle pouch on my armor. The frag replaces the rifle mag since my vest carries a bunch of rifle mags and the thickness of the cummerbund/armor overlap makes sticking a rifle mag at 9:00 restrictive.
http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm174/Fail2Stop/Belt-L.jpg
Here you can see how everything fits together from the front with me holding my invisible rifle.
http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm174/Fail2Stop/FrontRiflemock.jpg
This is the setup from the right side in the pretend rifle pose.
http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm174/Fail2Stop/Side-RRiflemock.jpg
Notice that the right side of the armor and belt are as free as possible of obstructions to the pistol. It also allows the right arm to tuck in tighter to the body, reducing the target profile and avoiding the elbow from smashing into stuff during entries or dynamic movement (fancy name for running into shit). This is kind of an important one, and it is an amateurish mistake to impede the draw with gear. I see it a lot with first-aid kits. Hint- if you got your gun into the fight faster you wouldn't need so many first aid items to plug your squirters. For some reason this seems to be in vogue with a lot of people that are disconnected from the realities of a gunfight. Kit must first be setup to support your winning the fight, stopping bullets from ruining your chi, and asking for more people to come shoot people with you. After that, in distant second place, it deals with retaining bodily fluids. This advice applies to those whose jobs hinge on the application of kinetic managment to a chaotic situation, and those whoe jobs revolve around sticking bits of gauze into gunshots or driving armored vehicles around will need to follow a different path.
Here you can see it from the back.
http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm174/Fail2Stop/BackILS.jpg
The thing to remember is that different jobs will require different layouts and armor levels. Different vests will have different features that might reduce the need for pouches. Different duties will determine different layouts. Different body types and skill levels will cause difference in layouts. But the biggest thing is simply time and experience. Not only in setting up one's own gear, but in identifying issues with other's as well. If your gear has 10 issues ranging from mild to critical, guys with sufficient experience should be able to identify 9 of those on an initial look-over, and will probably be able to tell you how to improve 3 other things that won't make a difference until you spend more time sweating into the kit.
Simply OUTSTANDING info and photos! Thanks!
Do you wear the belt as is or with thin suspenders/harness under the armor?
Can you tell us who makes your kit?
Failure2Stop
09-23-09, 07:25
Simply OUTSTANDING info and photos! Thanks!
Do you wear the belt as is or with thin suspenders/harness under the armor?
Can you tell us who makes your kit?
No problem. I wear the belt setup without any additional straps. I have a set of the HSGI suspenders, but I didn't need them and I haven't had a need for any additional stability yet. Should I make a drastic weight increase (as if I were going for classic 782 style) I would probably look into a suspension system such as from the MAV. As it is, the weight is fine and the overbelt seats well.
Inner belt- Specter. I would happily go with pretty much any decent duty belt, the stiffer the better.
Outer Molle Belt- as pictured- Specter. I had an ATS, and the only reason I got the Specter is that I needed a large ATS but had a Med. The Med was fine when worn in conjunction with armor but I wanted a bit more toward the front for use without armor and I needed it right away. The Specter was available but the ATS would take a few days to arrive. The ATS is a bit slimmer and less expensive, but the Specter has adjustable wings (which meant that I could use a Med Specter, which made me feel better about my waist size :rolleyes:). I have no qualms with going back to an ATS, and probably will for a dedicated no-armor setup.
Pistol pouches- Eagle FB.
Rifle Speed Reload- as pictured- Eagle FB. I have also been using the ATS shorty and the Triad Flop-Top. They are all decent, but the Eagle is the easiest to back-fill, so it gets top billing. I want to try the ICE and ITW offerings but haven't gotten around to it. The Gen III ITW Fast-Mag has high potential to replace my Eagle FBs, as the FBs are several years old and getting a bit worn out.
Rifle Double Pouch- ATS Double. It can convert from an open-top to bungee retention to flap retention. For run and gun I use the bungee only on the rear mag with the outer bungee tight enough to prevent the loose mag from escaping.
Frag- Eagle, but I prefer and use a TAG Frag pouch on my armor.
Dump- Emdom. Flatter than the other options that feel like you are walking around with a Basketball hoop sticking out of your ass.
Admin- Emdom. It's called a small utility or some such. Not terribly important- I keep a few necessaries in it at all times- Cr123 batteries (4), lighter, SureFire Ear plugs, lube, Neosporin, and usually a can of Copenhagen which always seems to migrate to the dump pouch for some reason.
Bleeder- HSGI Bleeder Pouch. Fits all that I can reasonably hope to do for myself or another shooter. Anything beyond what I carry is the domain of the hole-pluggers anyway. I have a QuickClot bandage, CAT (tourniquet), ACS, and a pair of shears. I have no intention of doing an NPA in a gunfight or to myself, so that stuff gets pushed to the main first aid kit on my back.
Multi-Tool/Light pouch- I can't remember, not all that sexy anyway. I would prefer one with a buckle though as I am sick of losing multitools.
Holster- The model slips my memory (will check later) but it is a Safariland ALS holster bolted to a 1.5" Safariland drop adaptor. I am about 95% happy with it. I would like it to be a bit more stable laterally (outward from thigh, not front to back), but that has more to do with belt stiffness than the holster.
I don't really place any of the items I named to be the pen-ultimate at what they do. It's more a matter of concept than specific item.
Hope this helps.
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