View Full Version : M&P15 OR BUSHMASTER.
A freind of mine wants to buy an AR but is stuck between the M&P15 and the BUSHMASTER which one would be a good rifle for him. I have a M&P15 and love it but he wants more opinions.
RancidSumo
07-09-09, 21:32
I just joined and I already know the unanimous response you are going to get here. (don't even ask about BM)
Just a simple question between two rifles. All i want is a simple answer. BUSHMASTER OR SMITH.
SwatDawg15
07-09-09, 21:35
Considering what you get, and the price, I would say the M&P for whatever use he has. However there are even better options out there for not very much more money.
Why exactly does he think that the Bushmaster is going to give him more options?
Neither.
I'm pretty sure we've talked about all caps thread titles, right?
Considering what you get, and the price, I would say the M&P for whatever use he has. However there are even better options out there for not very much more money.
Yup, or he could build a BCM for barely over a grand. That's what I did. ;)
Why all the hostility ROADKING? Did you buy a BM?:p
The_War_Wagon
07-09-09, 21:47
:D
http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc305/The_War_Wagon/100_4737.jpg
Cagemonkey
07-09-09, 21:50
All due respect. If you want opinions why don't you include DPMS, Olympic etc. Its a no brainer. S&W M&P15 gets my vote over Bushmaster. You should try to get him to look @ Colt, Daniel Defense, Charles Daly and Bravo Co. also.
Parabellum9x19mm
07-09-09, 21:51
Why all the hostility ROADKING? Did you buy a BM?:p
i'm not certain, but he sure as shit bought an AIMPOINT :D
i'm not certain, but he sure as shit bought an AIMPOINT :D
Dam right and love it too.
Neither.
I'm pretty sure we've talked about all caps thread titles, right?
I havent posted on here in a couple months i forgot. again habit.
Just a simple question between two rifles. All i want is a simple answer. BUSHMASTER OR SMITH.
Then take the time and do some research like everybody else does. There's this thing called "the chart" for a reason. Didn't you buy a S&W? Why did you choose your rifle?
Why do you need others to tell you what to tell your friend...? This isn't junior high!
Outlander Systems
07-09-09, 22:56
Here's the deal, Home Chicken:
I've got two smokewagons, one is an M&P15, the other is a Bushmaster Modular Carbine.
The M&P came from the factory as basic as it could get. The Bushmaster came "hooked up".
The Bushmaster had a joke of a stake job on the castle nut/gas keys.
The S&W had a great job done on both, from the factory.
The S&W was almost $600 cheaper, and is all-around a much better firearm.
The S&W doesn't really need any "fixes" other than a RIS instead of a standard handguard.
The Bushmaster needed a lot of work just to get it to where the S&W already was from the factory.
I had to try my damndest not to reply as a smartass, but if your buddy really wants to know, that's whatchya should tell him.
If I was startin' all over again I wouldn't have touched the BM with a 10' pole. I ain't getting rid of it, but life is more simple when you don't have to fix factory fudge-ups.
P.S.
The BM's BUIS, on the ModCar, totally and completely suck goat ass.
M&P would be my choice also. But you may want to consider a BCM upper and any forged lower.
Slugger
M&P would be my choice also. But you may want to consider a BCM upper and any forged lower.
Slugger
Yep, easy answer... M&P15 over BM.
Put together a lower. Then buy a BCM upper, BCG and charging handle and for just a bit more you have a top self rifle.
But, just buy an AR and get more of you friends interested in them too.
A freind of mine..SNIP..which one would be a good rifle for him.
Ummm, We dont know your friend, so how should we know what specifically he is looking for???
Roadking,
Here's my recommendation. Tell your friend about the site and have him join up. Explain to him the rules of the road and the purpose of M4C. I would also tell you to encourage him to think outside of the box. There are other options out there. I believe that with the market making some headway one could build a carbine for about $975.00 which would give you a quality no BS 5.56 barrel and a good BCG.
You can't make a truly informed decision if you aren't truly informed.
QuickStrike
07-10-09, 02:51
Why is he stuck with only these two choices? :confused:
He only wants one of the 2 name brands. and he doesnt want to build one.
Roadking,
Since he is your friend you should encourage him to open his mind a little more to other options. When I say "build" you realize that we are talking about dropping an upper onto a lower, pushing in some pins and slapping in the BCG and handguards, right? Personally, I think I would respectfully "bow out" and let him make his own decision on the matter. My guess is that if he buys either one and has problems or is unhappy he won't let you forget about it.
I still encourage you to show him this site and convince him to make an informed choice.
CaptainDooley
07-10-09, 07:56
For the money he'd put into either... DDXV.
RogerinTPA
07-10-09, 10:35
Roadking,
Here's my recommendation. Tell your friend about the site and have him join up. Explain to him the rules of the road and the purpose of M4C. I would also tell you to encourage him to think outside of the box. There are other options out there. I believe that with the market making some headway one could build a carbine for about $975.00 which would give you a quality no BS 5.56 barrel and a good BCG.
You can't make a truly informed decision if you aren't truly informed.
Well said Iraqgunz. You can further point him to the chart, have him read all three pages and hopefully, he will become self aware. If limited to ONLY those choices, go with the Smith. Sounds like your friend needs to proceed with more of an open mind and perform some research, disregarding the majority of opinions (which are based on personal bias instead of fact) he has "heard" about the AR.
PRGGodfather
07-10-09, 11:05
Yes, if it is really between those two brands, Smith wins hands down -- for better attention to detail as to reliability-related construction; staking, gas orifice, etc.
Still, at this relative price point, I would purchase a Daniel Defense XV.
The DDXV is likely the BEST value rifle available at the moment: Compliant with the TDP and very affordable. I encouraged my civilian business partner to purchase one and it came in yesterday -- and this rifle is perfectly assembled with exceptional attention to reliability details. It is practically a Colt -- just missing the rollmark and price tag. I developed a spread sheet for purchasing TDP compliant parts from various vendors for a build -- and the price difference was under $100 for all the parts (not including shipping costs), and the going price for a DDXV.
Grant also has M4C member pricing for DDXVs at G&R Tactical.
There really isn't a question, IMHO. If one could purchase a Colt and a Bushy for the same price -- who would consider the Bushy?
Slightly OT -- I had an outstanding interaction with John Holland at Daniel Defense yesterday. I was looking to exchange a DD product for work, and the customer service was exceptional.
Friends don't let friends by Bushmasters when S&Ws and DDs are available. If Bushies are all we got -- we'll find a way to make 'em work!
I'm going to play devil's advocate a bit here....
He only wants one of the 2 name brands. and he doesnt want to build one.
Just tell him to buy whichever one is cheaper or has cooler accessories. I don't think it will matter for him. Sounds to me like the kind of guy who'll be happy with whatever he gets.
If he really had a vested interest in finding the "better" one, he'd try a little harder than asking one friend to recommend one of rifles based solely on the name brands.
;)
Disclaimer: Unless he's planning on using it for a LE duty rifle or something, then the horse needs to be led to water (even if he doesn't drink).
woodandsteel
07-10-09, 11:55
I'll offer my two cents.
Since your friend is set on either the Bushmaster or the Smith and Wesson, I would vote for the Smith..
I carry a Bushmaster (Department Issued) as a patrol rifle. During my carbine class it went belly up due to the gas key coming loose. The gas key wasn't staked. The replacement one isn't staked either. Although, this is a do it yourself project, I won't because i don't own the rifle. I am, however, building a patrol rifle.
According to the chart that everyone is talking about, it looks like the Smith does a few more thing to their rifles than waht Bushmaster does, including staking the gas key. http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pwswheghNQsEuEhjFwPrgTA&hl=en
I don't have any experience with Bushmaster customer service, but I have heard good things about the customer service at Smith and Wesson.
Granted, there are better options out there for your friend. But, if this is what he has narrowed his choices down to, then I would have to say Smith and Wesson. Although, the Colt LE6920 has been coming down in price.:) I am tempted to abandon my build and just buy one of those.
I don't think your friend would be disappointed with the S&W. I just picked up my 2nd, a MP15X, my first was the MP15T which had no issues and was bolt gun accurate.
I have owned in the past a Colt and Stag arms. No problems with either but the M&P is a better deal IMHO. Add the Troy rail and flip up sights to the Colt and you are about $500 more than I paid for the MP15X ( $912 ).
Why not tweak the Bushmaster? Everyone customizes their rifles anyway. This forum as well as magazines, etc. is flooded with tips and recommendations from armorers on what to check and fix on any M4 clone. I've had my Bushy for a couple of years and hundreds of rounds of all type of 5.56 thru it and it has yet to give me so much as a hiccup! Maybe I'm just lucky, but all I've done to the guts of it is just stake the carrier key properly. I only did that after initial inspection, not because of failure. And yes, I own 2 Colts ( Delta Elite and a HBAR Tactical Carbine ) , so I can honestly say my Bushmaster has been as reliable as either of my Colts.
I say either choice would suit your friend just fine. I don't like that huge dorky S&W logo on the magwell. Put a Redi-Mag over it and it'll look less like a billboard.
Parabellum9x19mm
07-10-09, 21:06
Why not tweak the Bushmaster? Everyone customizes their rifles anyway. This forum as well as magazines, etc. is flooded with tips and recommendations from armorers on what to check and fix on any M4 clone. I've had my Bushy for a couple of years and hundreds of rounds of all type of 5.56 thru it and it has yet to give me so much as a hiccup! Maybe I'm just lucky, but all I've done to the guts of it is just stake the carrier key properly. I only did that after initial inspection, not because of failure. And yes, I own 2 Colts ( Delta Elite and a HBAR Tactical Carbine ) , so I can honestly say my Bushmaster has been as reliable as either of my Colts.
I say either choice would suit your friend just fine. I don't like that huge dorky S&W logo on the magwell. Put a Redi-Mag over it and it'll look less like a billboard.
don't take this the wrong way, but hundreds of rounds over the course of a couple years is nothing at all. i'm glad you haven't experienced any issues thus far with your Bushmaster, but it doesn't really mean too much, either. such performance should be expected of any firearm.
for people who only shoot hundreds of rounds in a year, a Bushmaster is probably more than adequate and will suit their purposes just fine.
don't take this the wrong way, but hundreds of rounds over the course of a couple years is nothing at all. i'm glad you haven't experienced any issues thus far with your Bushmaster, but it doesn't really mean too much, either. such performance should be expected of any firearm.
for people who only shoot hundreds of rounds in a year, a Bushmaster is probably more than adequate and will suit their purposes just fine.
Thanks for the lesson in reliability and let me correct myself after checking my logbook. It is more like 2,000. I'll try to shoot more if ammo ever becomes available. Guess I'm just waiting on a breakdown.
Parabellum9x19mm
07-10-09, 21:22
Thanks for the lesson in reliability and let me correct myself after checking my logbook. It is more like 2,000. I'll try to shoot more if ammo ever becomes available. Guess I'm just waiting on a breakdown.
if you're keeping a logbook you're way ahead of the game on being able to predict parts failures.
its also good that you lucked out with your chamber and can use a wide variety of ammo without issue. i've had and seen issues with Bushmaster and stuck Wolf cases, but then there are other people who have Bushmasters who have never had a malfunction and all they shoot is Wolf.
just comes down the luck of the draw i guess. glad you got a good one & you're happy with it :cool:
if you're keeping a logbook you're way ahead of the game on being able to predict parts failures.
its also good that you lucked out with your chamber and can use a wide variety of ammo without issue. i've had and seen issues with Bushmaster and stuck Wolf cases, but then there are other people who have Bushmasters who have never had a malfunction and all they shoot is Wolf.
just comes down the luck of the draw i guess. glad you got a good one & you're happy with it :cool:
I appreciate you wishing me well and I hope you have many happy trigger pulls as well! :D
thespyhunter
07-10-09, 21:33
Between the two ~ Smith wins.
Better option ~ build for not much more.
Get the smith and wesson, they are better rifles than the BM's. I recently bought a SW MP15X, very happy with it and the quality.
Not my first choice for a carbine, but this is a lot of gun for $850 IMHO.
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=311002&reference=/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi%3Fsearch%3Daction%26keywords%3D%26searchstart%3D9%26template%3DPDGCommTemplates/FullNav/SearchResult.html%26category%3DSMWE
Not my first choice for a carbine, but this is a lot of gun for $850 IMHO.
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=311002&reference=/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi%3Fsearch%3Daction%26keywords%3D%26searchstart%3D9%26template%3DPDGCommTemplates/FullNav/SearchResult.html%26category%3DSMWE
That should settle it! Now can we close this thread:rolleyes:
That should settle it! Now can we close this thread:rolleyes:
I'm with you on that. Good advice has already been given. Please people, stop responding to this thread. Let this one die---it has too many responses with the same answer. The OP has been on this site long enough to know the answer he would have received from this forum had he not asked the question.
I believe there are better options but between the 2 I would definitely go with the S&W.
OK I'm sick of hearing there are better choices.....for the money I don't think so.
The S&W hits most all the points on our comparison charts.....except 1:9 v 1:7 , I'd rather have 1:9 more versatile. they don't meet bbl specs because S&W makes their own and they are probably better than Colts as TC is making them, TC bbls are known for their accuracy. And as to dbl heat shield handguards who cares I'll be changing them out for a rail system ala M73 anyways.........
So besides LMT which will cost way more and a COLT again cost way higher what are these better choices? And why are they better?? Sure as heck IS NOT a NOVESKE.........................
Enlighten me........
I think RK just wants to hear how SW is better than a BM ;)
I own a M&P15x and it is a great rifle that I purchased during the frenzy. If I could do it over it would be either a Colt 6920 or now also the choice of the Daniel Defense XV.
Bad Karma 556
07-11-09, 16:29
I own a Bushmaster.I've no complaints, it works.They were a good value for the money HOWEVER......I am planning on upgrading the BCG,buffer, and possibly the barrel to a 1:7".I bought this rifle with the accessories I wanted already there for a good price.IMHO I think the Bushmasters are a little underrated.
That being said (and before everybody gets too pissed off) THE S&W's ARE A BETTER RIFLE.
The quality control on some early ones was a little off, but that's over.Better fit, finish, and materiels for the cost make it a way better buy.Bushmasters are overpriced these days.Plus, the S&W's have a reputation for reliability that does exceed Bushmaster's.I like my Bushmaster, but I can't honestly say it's a better rifle.
oldgrunt,
Rather than us try and "enlighten" you how about you read the threads around here and do a little research.
OK I'm sick of hearing there are better choices.....for the money I don't think so.
The S&W hits most all the points on our comparison charts.....except 1:9 v 1:7 , I'd rather have 1:9 more versatile. they don't meet bbl specs because S&W makes their own and they are probably better than Colts as TC is making them, TC bbls are known for their accuracy. And as to dbl heat shield handguards who cares I'll be changing them out for a rail system ala M73 anyways.........
So besides LMT which will cost way more and a COLT again cost way higher what are these better choices? And why are they better?? Sure as heck IS NOT a NOVESKE.........................
Enlighten me........
Pat Rogers seems to like S&W ARs. May 2008 issue of S.W.A.T. and I believe he has stated it at other times also.
Other than the barrel not being mil-spec what is the problem with M&P15s? If they used a mil-spec barrel they would be near the top of the chart. The barrels S&W uses are very accurate and from what I have read get a good round count and keep up that accuracy.
If were were taliking equal money I could see why Colt would be better but with the same standard equipment the Colt is 50%+ more.
I just burned my BM in a funeral pyre.It served me well.But alot of people said it was crap so I believe it.Right now I am walking across lake Erie with my 6920.No problems.The BM,check the staking...if it's not right....get a MOACKS.Oh.... I'm starting to sink.....I chant ....Colt,LMT,Noveske....thank GOD I'm walking on water again...better get back to shore.Whew....made it.
Bottom line...does BM make a POS rifle...No.
Actually they make some of the best barrel's.
Are they TDP?Nope.
Will a Bm ever let you down?Maybe.
Will a Colt,Lmt,Noveske ever let you down?Maybe
Does BM make a gun comparable to the BIG 3 in quality?Nope
My 1st AR was a BM...it has served me well...just check it out when you get it.
Alright...As Johnny Torch used to say......FLAME ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You're not understanding the point of the chart. It's ok, I didn't at one time either.
Colts are expensive. More so now. Supply and demand sorta works that way. Most BM SW etc. can be "fixed" in the critical areas. If the end user has knowledge, tools, and decent skills they can handle that stuff themselves. If the difference between SW and Colt or LMT is great enough to cause a pause; buy the cheap one and get it as close to spec as possible.
The chart does not place one rifle over the other. It is COMPLETELY without opinion. It's a data sheet. That's all.
If the S&W had a mil spec barrel it would be up with the big boys on the chart. Would that make the chart's data misleading?
What needs to be fixed on the new production M&P15s?
I doubt there will be much flaming. Just a few things.
1. How did you arrive at the fact that BM makes some of the best barrels? From what I have seen they are average.
2. Why limit yourself buy buying a 1/9 twist which will preclude you from using more heavier effective rounds?
3. Will it fail you? Absolutely if you do not make the minimum upgrades and you actually shoot the weapon.
4. Take the cost of the BM+ a MOACKS tool, plus the other misc. items and where are you at? I dare say the same price as the DD XV or a BCM build and very close to a Colt 6920.
5. Does it truly make fiscal sense to buy xxx or xxxx when you can get it right the first time with just a couple hundred dollars more investment?
I just burned my BM in a funeral pyre.It served me well.But alot of people said it was crap so I believe it.Right now I am walking across lake Erie with my 6920.No problems.The BM,check the staking...if it's not right....get a MOACKS.Oh.... I'm starting to sink.....I chant ....Colt,LMT,Noveske....thank GOD I'm walking on water again...better get back to shore.Whew....made it.
Bottom line...does BM make a POS rifle...No.
Actually they make some of the best barrel's.
Are they TDP?Nope.
Will a Bm ever let you down?Maybe.
Will a Colt,Lmt,Noveske ever let you down?Maybe
Does BM make a gun comparable to the BIG 3 in quality?Nope
My 1st AR was a BM...it has served me well...just check it out when you get it.
Alright...As Johnny Torch used to say......FLAME ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Parabellum9x19mm
07-12-09, 19:15
I just burned my BM in a funeral pyre.It served me well.But alot of people said it was crap so I believe it.Right now I am walking across lake Erie with my 6920.No problems.The BM,check the staking...if it's not right....get a MOACKS.Oh.... I'm starting to sink.....I chant ....Colt,LMT,Noveske....thank GOD I'm walking on water again...better get back to shore.Whew....made it.
Bottom line...does BM make a POS rifle...No.
Actually they make some of the best barrel's.
Are they TDP?Nope.
Will a Bm ever let you down?Maybe.
Will a Colt,Lmt,Noveske ever let you down?Maybe
Does BM make a gun comparable to the BIG 3 in quality?Nope
My 1st AR was a BM...it has served me well...just check it out when you get it.
Alright...As Johnny Torch used to say......FLAME ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!
it really seems like you want to get flamed. you make flame-bait comments, like the whole sarcastic walking on water thing, burning your BFI and then say, "FLAME ON" like you really are trying to get some sort of shit started.
nobody on this forum is going to think less of someone else, or flame them based on their choice of rifle.
the only issues like that are when someone tries to explain why a person's BFI/DPMS/RRA isn't the equal of a Colt/LMT/Noveske and that guy gets all defensive and butthurt and starts crying how buying a Colt or LMT is only "paying for a name" or some such shit.
i agree with you on most of the actual points that you made...the non sarcastic ones :D however, i have to side with IraqGunz on the barrel issue.
BFI barrels are nothing special. no, they're not bad, but i don't see how you can say they make "the best" barrels. that is just a ridiculous claim. just to name a few, Noveske, Sabre, BCM all make chrome lined barrels that are much better than BFI...so no BFI barrels are very far from being "the best barrels"....but yeah, they are better than DPMS, RRA, DTI & Oly barrels
From the chart it's off TDP by the following:
M16 bcg
Barrel Steel
MPI Barrel
HPT
1:7 twist
Double shield handguards
H buffer
A little more than just a barrel issue. Only you can decide what is important. Double shield handguards might not matter to someone going with a rail etc.
To me, at basically the same price point stock vs stock why would you even bother with buying a SW or BM? Then, when you factor in the costs involved just to get it to TDP you have more than closed the small gap in original price and probably exceeded it. Just doesn't make sense to me. But, it's your money. You could blow it all on double cheeseburgers for all I care. :p
If you want to gather all the new information from a new production M&P 15, go for it. Rob does what he can but he can't be looking at every new production rifle. That's why DD isn't up their yet, KAC, Larue etc.
It's not misleading at all. The first things you do when handed information is figure out:
1. Where is it coming from
2. Who is it meant for
3. What is the date on the information
4. What is its purpose.
Rob provided the TDP for you. Why not print it out, take it with you, and compare the rifle in question. If you don't know how to tell certain things, learn. If you need direct, from the horses mouth info, call the manufacture.
It's kinda like arguing that the earth is round. It just is. It's a fact. This is the military specifications. No big secret. This is how other rifles compare to the military specifications. The information isn't offensive and if someone makes it so, their a bozo.
Would't the Mil Spec barrel that I asked about take care of 4 items on the list and put it above LMT on the chart?
Barrel Steel
MPI Barrel
HPT
1:7 twist
As for the handguards it seems most want to go rail anyway.
Reading this thread you would think S&W was rebadged Century Arms. Going by the Pat Rogers write up on three S&Ws ( and since those rifles S&W has made some improvements) and the "chart" the M&Ps are pretty nice rifles and only lower than the "upper tier" rifles because of the barrel.
The cost difference stated about the M&P and 6920s are also misleading. MP15X with Troy sights and Troy rail goes for $912 add those two items to the Colt and you are at $1400 ( $1099 +149 + $140 )
CaptainDooley
07-13-09, 07:23
Don't forget the cost of a barrel to bring it up to the Colt's level... Now you've just eaten up the cost difference... And if you can't install it yourself you've just exceeded it...
Don't forget the cost of a barrel to bring it up to the Colt's level... Now you've just eaten up the cost difference... And if you can't install it yourself you've just exceeded it...
That really wasn't my point. My point is there really isn't much seperating the S&W from the Colt and it is not like the M&P uses junk barrels, from my experience and from reviews the S&W M&ps are very accurate.
As for the M&P15's being good only if you are going to shoot a few hundred rds a year that is just silly.
Where are you seeing an MP15x for 912? I'm seeing 1300-1500 in a quick search... I think you might have the wrong model in mind.
I think he is referring to Grant's price at http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=311008&reference=/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi%3Fsearch%3Daction%26keywords%3D%26searchstart%3D18%26template%3DPDGCommTemplates/FullNav/SearchResult.html
I was going to purchase one of those until I found out his member price for the DD XV.
Where are you seeing an MP15x for 912? I'm seeing 1300-1500 in a quick search... I think you might have the wrong model in mind.
New barrel
Barrel install
H-buffer
M16 BCG
Even going by the 912 (which I think is way off) the gap is still covered if not exceeded.
Look, whatever floats your boat. If you have no need for the parts/specs listed in TDP then don't worry about it. No one here has called SW crap. Like I've said a few times already..... The chart is without opinion.
I just bought the MP15X from grtactical.com for $912( $931 shipped) just last week. http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=311008&reference=/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi%3Fsearch%3Daction%26keywords%3D%26searchstart%3D9%26template%3DPDGCommTemplates/FullNav/SearchResult.html%26category%3DSMWE
My question is still is it just the barrel that keeps the M&P from being recommended along with LMT rifles?
I am not upset. Just trying to get a direct answer.
Again, the mil-spec barrel would take care of 4 items on your list and would put the S&W higher on the chart than the LMT. Is this correct? Yes or no? That is all I was trying to find out?
That wasn't your question
As far as your new question is concerned.... What are you driving at. It's a math issue and simple one at that. Yes, the right barrel would fix 4 of the 7 missing TDP specs. I can't imagine that you wanted me to do simple math for you so what is your point?
I'm not angry, just some misunderstanding going on here and I want to clear it up.
I honestly didn't know if it was more than the barrel and carrier. I didn't know if it was going to come up that the receivers or LPK that S&W used were suspect.
Glad to know it is just the non mil spec barrel and carrier.
Thanks for your time ZDL. Hopefully you didn't pull too much hair out:D
Why limit yourself buy buying a 1/9 twist which will preclude you from using more heavier effective rounds?
From my experience, the 1:9" will handle 55-70 gr bullets as good or even BETTER than a 1:7". Most guys are running 55gr or 62 gr ammo. If that is going to be the majority of what you shoot, 1:9" is not a bad thing. If you're going to shoot heavier exclusively, then 1:7" is a significant advantage.
I am well aware that a 1/9" will shoot 55-69gr. ammo. However, many will not shoot the 75gr. TAP or the Mk262 MOD 1 77gr. ammo. As far as I know those rounds are preferred for anti-social situations.
From my experience, the 1:9" will handle 55-70 gr bullets as good or even BETTER than a 1:7". Most guys are running 55gr or 62 gr ammo. If that is going to be the majority of what you shoot, 1:9" is not a bad thing. If you're going to shoot heavier exclusively, then 1:7" is a significant advantage.
I am well aware that a 1/9" will shoot 55-69gr. ammo. However, many will not shoot the 75gr. TAP or the Mk262 MOD 1 77gr. ammo. As far as I know those rounds are preferred for anti-social situations.
I've shot Mk262 MOD 1 from my 1:9, 14.5", RRA R4 barrel. It handled the round well. *However*, it is my understanding that shooting the heaver bullets (over 69gr) from 1:9 is a dangerous practice. I got lucky. I won't do it again, as the information I received indicated it could cause dangerous overpressure conditions.
rmecapn- shooting 75 and 77 grn loads in a 1:9 barrel won't cause overpressure. What you are talking about is if you shoot a Mk 262 5.56 Nato load in a .223 Rem chamber. .223 chambers have less leade and freebore in the throat and could have an overpressure situation if a Mk262 round were fired in it. Also, many 1:9 barrels by 2nd tier manufacturers have .223 Rem chambers, not 5.56 Nato spec chambers.
I've shot Mk262 MOD 1 from my 1:9, 14.5", RRA R4 barrel. It handled the round well. *However*, it is my understanding that shooting the heaver bullets (over 69gr) from 1:9 is a dangerous practice. I got lucky. I won't do it again, as the information I received indicated it could cause dangerous overpressure conditions.
I would think that if pressure would be higher it would be in the tighter twist of the 1:7. ( Obviously not dangerous though )
I would think that if pressure would be higher it would be in the tighter twist of the 1:7. ( Obviously not dangerous though )
Exactly.
rmecapn- shooting 75 and 77 grn loads in a 1:9 barrel won't cause overpressure. What you are talking about is if you shoot a Mk 262 5.56 Nato load in a .223 Rem chamber. .223 chambers have less leade and freebore in the throat and could have an overpressure situation if a Mk262 round were fired in it. Also, many 1:9 barrels by 2nd tier manufacturers have .223 Rem chambers, not 5.56 Nato spec chambers.
So, as long as my particular barrel handled it, then I'm OK?
I am well aware that a 1/9" will shoot 55-69gr. ammo. However, many will not shoot the 75gr. TAP or the Mk262 MOD 1 77gr. ammo. As far as I know those rounds are preferred for anti-social situations.
I suppose if one chose that for their primary load, 1:7" may be superior. I've found that A-Max and V-Max bullets in the 52-60 gr. range have great terminal effect; more so than heavier FMJs. Though, I've actually had pretty good success shooting 75s through 1:9"s. It seems the 1:8" is probably the most effective in that weight. I don't understand the arbitrary decision at the top for 1:7" considering most ammo guys shoot is 55 and 62gr.
Twist rate isn't going to measurably affect chamber pressures. My understanding of why 1:7 was chosen was to stabilize the longer M856 tracer bullet and the M995 AP bullet.
Since the arguement that the 1:9 might not handle 75gr+ rds is used as a negative against the M&P15s I'll ask here
For cilvilian HD the range would have to be room distance or not much more to be considered justifiable, is there any real advantage in the 75gr ammo over the same quality constucted 55-69gr bullet ( say Tap vs Tap ) at these distances?
Now you're getting somewhat off the topic of this thread and into the realm of terminal ballistics. I'd suggest TOS for some of DocGKRs posted information:
http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm
Keep in mind that some 1:9 barrels will shoot 75 Hornadys fine and some won't. That could be due to variations in twist rate between barrels. Also keep in mind that usually the 1:9 barrels won't shoot Sierra 77 Match Kings very well- the 77s are longer than Hornady 75s.
If you never want to shoot 75 gr. or heavier bullets, a 1:9 barrel will do just fine. But if you're buying a rifle and choose what to get, there's no disadvantage of getting a 1:7 barrel and there are some advantages. In my experience, 1:7 barrels will shoot anything from 55gr to 80 gr. bullets just fine. In my opinion, the chatter about 1:7 barrels "overstabilizing bullets" causing them to have poor accuracy or to come apart is mostly BS. If you're shooting a fast, light varmint bullet like a 40 gr. Sierra you might drive that bullet fast enough to come apart, but for the most part with 55gr or heavier, you don't need to consider this.
If your going to load Hornady TAP, all of the loadings work reasonably well for HD use, a 1:9 barrel would be just fine.
Parabellum9x19mm
07-13-09, 20:45
it really doesn't matter what points you guys make.
some people will forever justify and rationalize things for themselves if they don't like what they hear.
saying things like "isn't the chart misleading?" is very telling as to his mindset and thought process and *why* he's asking the questions he chooses to ask.
bottom line: the new M&Ps are very good rifles, but they're not "the best" either. you can either keep arguing that they're just as good, or you can just deal with the facts...all of which are widely available on this site, if you care to look around.
Since the arguement that the 1:9 might not handle 75gr+ rds is used as a negative against the M&P15s I'll ask here
For cilvilian HD the range would have to be room distance or not much more to be considered justifiable, is there any real advantage in the 75gr ammo over the same quality constucted 55-69gr bullet ( say Tap vs Tap ) at these distances?
for the record, i'm a civilian and i use 75 TAP and 77 SMK for home defense.
YMMV
CaptainDooley
07-13-09, 20:51
From what I saw on the ammo site listed above and from nearly every other source I'd trust - if you can use 75 gr and up for personal/home defense, you should. I don't know all the ins and outs of ballistics and terminal performance and whatnot, but if the experts use it and recommend others use it... I would. SO, that means a 1:7 barrel for me...
ztf HITMAN
07-13-09, 21:22
I've had both...a Bushy M4 Patrolman's and a S&W M&P 15....From my experience, the Smith wins by a long shot...Just my $.02
Jay Cunningham
07-13-09, 21:30
Now you're getting somewhat off the topic of this thread and into the realm of terminal ballistics. I'd suggest TOS for some of DocGKRs posted information:
http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm
Why would you tell someone to check out TOS when DocGKR has his own entire forum right here?
http://m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?f=91
The 1:7" will handle 55s fine, but usually the 1:9" of equal quality will handle them better. If you're shooting XM193 or something similar as a primary load, the 1:9" is a good choice. On the flipside, usually a 1:7" is going to be more accurate with 75s given barrels of equal quality.
Accuracy at room distance is a moot point.
The 77 gr SMK is a poor choice. It is designed to buck wind and put bullets on target downrange. It is not designed for maximum terminal performance. The 55 gr V-Max or the 75 gr V-Max both will outperform it. The difference between the 75 gr V-Max and the 55 gr V-Max is penetration. In TAP loads, the 75gr penetrates 20% further. Hornady recommends the 55 to perform optimally in 1:9". Hornady recommends optimal performance of 75s in both 1:7 and 1:9". The 60 gr V-Max penetrates 10% further than 55 gr V-Maxes and retains more weight than either the 55 gr or 75 gr.
Many guys want their self-defense ammunition to be crimped over a cannelure. That leaves the 55 gr. V-Max as a good choice and disqualifies 75 gr V-Maxes, but I've never seen a cartridge with good neck-tension (.005-.007") grow in a magazine thought that doesn't mean it can't happen.
If a gun is built right and has a 1:9", it isn't a black mark against the gun. It is possibly even more desirable depending on your intended use. Twist rate is not a critical characteristic to the reliability of a given gun so as long as the twist rate will handle the primary loads, it shouldn't disqualify it from consideration providing it is built right (ie critical components: NATO chamber, MPI, good staking, etc).
Parabellum9x19mm
07-14-09, 19:53
Ac
The 77 gr SMK is a poor choice. It is designed to buck wind and put bullets on target downrange. It is not designed for maximum terminal performance. The 55 gr V-Max or the 75 gr V-Max both will outperform it. The difference between the 75 gr V-Max and the 55 gr V-Max is penetration. In TAP loads, the 75gr penetrates 20% further. Hornady recommends the 55 to perform optimally in 1:9". Hornady recommends optimal performance of 75s in both 1:7 and 1:9". The 60 gr V-Max penetrates 10% further than 55 gr V-Maxes and retains more weight than either the 55 gr or 75 gr.
Many guys want their self-defense ammunition to be crimped over a cannelure. That leaves the 55 gr. V-Max as a good choice and disqualifies 75 gr V-Maxes, but I've never seen a cartridge with good neck-tension (.005-.007") grow in a magazine thought that doesn't mean it can't happen.
i have never seen .223 75 grain V-MAX TAP loaded ammunition
i have seen 75 grain open tip TAP and 55 grain VMAX TAP....but never 75 V-MAX TAP
personally i don't trust ballistic tip ammo for personal defense. i'll leave the varmint bullets for the varmints
like i said in my last post, YMMV
Just a simple question between two rifles. All i want is a simple answer. BUSHMASTER OR SMITH.
I own one of each.
A Bushmaster CQBR carbine and a M&P15 SPR precision rifle.
They are both good.
i've had and seen issues with Bushmaster and stuck Wolf cases, but then there are other people who have Bushmasters who have never had a malfunction and all they shoot is Wolf.
4000+ rounds to date using Wolf ammo, and zero failures.
I don't buy the Bushy/Wolf hate because I know better... first hand.
Parabellum9x19mm
07-14-09, 22:32
4000+ rounds to date using Wolf ammo, and zero failures.
I don't buy the Bushy/Wolf hate because I know better... first hand.
i'm glad to hear that you don't have issues with your BFI.
my first hand experience with my Bushmaster and Wolf was pretty damn shitty.
i have also witnessed first hand other Bushmasters on the firing line get locked up with Wolf
as i previously stated, in the post that you quoted, i've experienced these issues myself
in that same post, i said some other people never have issues and all they shoot is Wolf
apparently your first hand experience counts more than that of other's, because you just "know better".
i'm happier without my old Bushmaster upper. if you're happy with your Bushmaster, more power to you.
i have never seen .223 75 grain V-MAX TAP loaded ammunition
i have seen 75 grain open tip TAP and 55 grain VMAX TAP....but never 75 V-MAX TAP
personally i don't trust ballistic tip ammo for personal defense. i'll leave the varmint bullets for the varmints
like i said in my last post, YMMV
You are right, the 75 is a BTHP, not a V-Max. That was negligent editing on my part. Sorry about the confusion. The 55 and 60 gr are V-Maxes.
To me, home invaders are varmints :D
I'm on the other side of the fence, as I don't trust FMJ BTHP type bullets to expand. I've shot many a deer/coyote with them with poor results. When they slow down, they just don't get the job done. Human vitals aren't that deep, so rapid expansion seems more important to me. Maybe I'm wrong on this, but I've come to the conclusion based on how quick the critters I've shot have gone down.
I have heard great things about running hot loads with the 55 gr. SP W/C and 60 gr SP, but I haven't tried them yet. I may have to make some gel and try it as it would be a good medium between V-Max and BTHP bullets' expansion. Anyway, I suppose we've gotten far enough off topic and I extend my apologies to the OP.
You are citing a sample of one. Some of us can refer to dozens if not hundreds. How long did it take you to reach the 4K mark and how many rounds were fired in one session? Things like that matter. If I shot 4K rounds through a Bushy over a two year period that's only 5.7 rounds per day. I would hardly expect any failures from that.
4000+ rounds to date using Wolf ammo, and zero failures.
I don't buy the Bushy/Wolf hate because I know better... first hand.
flyboy1788
07-15-09, 18:09
4000+ rounds to date using Wolf ammo, and zero failures.
I don't buy the Bushy/Wolf hate because I know better... first hand.
Well, I guess that settles it. Because your bushy fired 4000 rounds of wolf, that is a sure sign that all bushies will never have problems with wolf now.
I shot approximately 1300 rounds thru an M&P15T suppresed with an AAC M4/SPR can at a Pat Rogers course a couple of months ago in Pueblo. The only thing I did the entire time was lube it. To me this is an easy choice, if the M&P puts up with this type of abuse then this is what I will buy.
S/F
Dozer
it really seems like you want to get flamed. you make flame-bait comments, like the whole sarcastic walking on water thing, burning your BFI and then say, "FLAME ON" like you really are trying to get some sort of shit started.
nobody on this forum is going to think less of someone else, or flame them based on their choice of rifle.
the only issues like that are when someone tries to explain why a person's BFI/DPMS/RRA isn't the equal of a Colt/LMT/Noveske and that guy gets all defensive and butthurt and starts crying how buying a Colt or LMT is only "paying for a name" or some such shit.
i agree with you on most of the actual points that you made...the non sarcastic ones :D however, i have to side with IraqGunz on the barrel issue.
BFI barrels are nothing special. no, they're not bad, but i don't see how you can say they make "the best" barrels. that is just a ridiculous claim. just to name a few, Noveske, Sabre, BCM all make chrome lined barrels that are much better than BFI...so no BFI barrels are very far from being "the best barrels"....but yeah, they are better than DPMS, RRA, DTI & Oly barrels
At no time did I make a claim that BM makes THE "best barrel's".YOU stated I said that and I never did.I said "some of the best" and you quoted several mfg's that were inferior.That was just jumping on the "I hate BM bandwagon"
I have a 6920 and I never said that the BM was an equal to that.
My point is a BM is FAR from a POS.
AGAIN...is BM TDP?NO
Will a BM fail you?maybe.
Will a Colt/LMT/Noveske fail?Maybe.
Is a BM likely to fail before the big 3...Maybe.
That's the real issue isn't it?
At no time did I say a BM was as good as the BIG 3..But it is far from junk.
When I said "flame on"...that's what you do when you hear the word "Bushmaster":confused:.
See below. Should answer most of your questions. As has been demonstrated here several times in the past. For a little more than what one pays for a BM, one could get a better mousetrap.
At no time did I make a claim that BM makes THE "best barrel's".YOU stated I said that and I never did.I said "some of the best" and you quoted several mfg's that were inferior.That was just jumping on the "I hate BM bandwagon" Again, what criteria are using to say that they are some of the best? They are average as far as I can see.
I have a 6920 and I never said that the BM was an equal to that.
My point is a BM is FAR from a POS. Define POS?
AGAIN...is BM TDP?NO There are a few guns out there that aren't TDP yet they were built correctly using quality parts and they work. That is what's known as a clue.
Will a BM fail you?maybe. It absolutely will fail you at some point if you do not fix the basics such as the staking. And depending on ammo you will want that chamber reamed.
Will a Colt/LMT/Noveske fail?Maybe. Anything can fail that is made by man or machine. The rates of failure and what type of failure are what's important.
Is a BM likely to fail before the big 3...Maybe. Generally, yes it will.
That's the real issue isn't it? The real issue is why they don't strive to be as good as the others when they clearly have the ability to do so.
At no time did I say a BM was as good as the BIG 3..But it is far from junk.
When I said "flame on"...that's what you do when you hear the word "Bushmaster":confused:.
See below. Should answer most of your questions. As has been demonstrated here several times in the past. For a little more than what one pays for a BM, one could get a better mousetrap.
DEFINE POS: means piece of shit ,duh!!!!;)Just kidding!BM IS WHAT IT IS!TRY not to compare it to the Big 3.BM is the most sold AR.Bottom line.My BM was built correctly using quality parts(What does that MP on my barrel mean?Hmmmm?)
Bottom line...what you say will not stop people from buying stuff that works.
But why should they?
A POS to me is a weapon that requires me to have to tweak it to make it work properly or one where the manufacturer cut corners to make a sale. Someone else may have a different opinion.
No idea how you arrived at the conclusion that BM is the "most sold" AR and it really doesn't matter. Alot of people especially in the last few months have purchased AR's without even knowing how the weapon functions because they were afraid of a ban.
So your Bushmaster had a properly staked bolt carrier key, lower receiver extension, and correct extractor spring assy.?
The MP on your barrel actually means NOTHING since it is common knowledge that they only batch test their barrels and bolts. Maybe yours was tested, maybe not.
Of course it will work if it sits in the safe and is never fired. Or if you only fire a few hundred rounds a year.
I could care less if you buy one BM or 20. I would also care less if your carbine works or not. If you are happy with it then by all means have a nice day. However, IMHO it makes little fiscal sense to buy a weapon that needs to be worked on out of the box in order to be reliable. I will freely admit that I am a NAZI when it comes to weapons and the associated gear. I don't buy crap and I don't buy "just plinkers".
DEFINE POS: means piece of shit ,duh!!!!;)Just kidding!BM IS WHAT IT IS!TRY not to compare it to the Big 3.BM is the most sold AR.Bottom line.My BM was built correctly using quality parts(What does that MP on my barrel mean?Hmmmm?)
Bottom line...what you say will not stop people from buying stuff that works.
But why should they?
Parabellum9x19mm
07-19-09, 00:28
At no time did I make a claim that BM makes THE "best barrel's".YOU stated I said that and I never did.I said "some of the best" and you quoted several mfg's that were inferior.That was just jumping on the "I hate BM bandwagon"
ok you said "one of the best" not "the best". if you want to split hairs that's fine, but either way you're still wrong. they don't make some of the best barrels.
yeah i listed some inferior manufacturers who BM is probably better than...but i also listed some manufactures who make barrels that are worlds better than BM
i'm not jumping on any bandwagon. i made up MY OWN MIND about bushmaster a long time ago, before i was even a member of this site.
i still have a bushmaster factory complete lower. if i was on some sort of bandwagon you'd think i would have ditched it :rolleyes:
When I said "flame on"...that's what you do when you hear the word "Bushmaster":confused:.
you already started off on the defensive before anyone had responded to your comments. the above comment just proves it.
you just misinterpreted other's responses to fall in line with your expectations.
i didn't flame anyone. if you consider what i said flaming, you really need to grow some thicker skin. in fact i agreed with much of what you said.
relax a little. don't be so sensitive.
ok you said "one of the best" not "the best". if you want to split hairs that's fine, but either way you're still wrong. they don't make some of the best barrels.
yeah i listed some inferior manufacturers who BM is probably better than...but i also listed some manufactures who make barrels that are worlds better than BM
i'm not jumping on any bandwagon. i made up MY OWN MIND about bushmaster a long time ago, before i was even a member of this site.
i still have a bushmaster factory complete lower. if i was on some sort of bandwagon you'd think i would have ditched it :rolleyes:
you already started off on the defensive before anyone had responded to your comments. the above comment just proves it.
you just misinterpreted other's responses to fall in line with your expectations.
i didn't flame anyone. if you consider what i said flaming, you really need to grow some thicker skin. in fact i agreed with much of what you said.
relax a little. don't be so sensitive.
I have read other posts,I know what regulars on this site think about BM.I'm not defensive,I prefer the term "prepared".I respect all of the regulars on this,I really do.IRAQ...he is a guy w/ stones.I respect him.And you too Para.I just think everyone comes down hard on BM.It works for me.Like I said before,I have a 6920 w/ an ACOG sitting on top(ashamed to say I have not shot it yet:()A BM may not be up to your standings,but don't frown upon a guy who has one that works.
For shooting on a square range BM is just fine. For two way ranges where most folks will never be reconsider your options. Our agency experienced a 100% failure rate on all 25 of the SRT guns due to the gas key staking issue they refuse to fix. The patrol guns have experienced the same issues but at a slower rate due to an easier course of fire.
BM batch tests parts. Whats does that "MP" mean on the barrel, it means that the barrel in question was one of a group that a few random samples were tested out of. Colt, LMT, BCM individually test each part.
Round counts are good but don't say much unless there's a course of fire that goes with it. Heat kill parts more then just about anything else. High round counts over a short period of time even on semi auto can cause failures quickly due to the subsequent heat. That is one of the major reasons that hobby guns like BM and DPMS don't make it through a high round count class like Pat's.
Sure you can fix the issues, but they should not be there to begin with. The AR's a proven reliable system, and it's not tough to build a quality gun, it just about the price point.
Rob's chart and the related documentation is one of the best reference tools going for the AR. But I could take all the best parts listed and throw together a crap rifle. I've seen it enough times with folks that don't know what they are doing or have the right tools. My point here is it takes more then just the right parts to build a good firearm and some company's products need to remain on the square, one way range.
Parabellum9x19mm
07-19-09, 02:02
I have read other posts,I know what regulars on this site think about BM.I'm not defensive,I prefer the term "prepared".I respect all of the regulars on this,I really do.IRAQ...he is a guy w/ stones.I respect him.And you too Para.I just think everyone comes down hard on BM.It works for me.Like I said before,I have a 6920 w/ an ACOG sitting on top(ashamed to say I have not shot it yet:()A BM may not be up to your standings,but don't frown upon a guy who has one that works.
i'd never look down on anyone because of what weapon they chose to use. its just too often people have inferiority complexes about a weapon and they go overboard trying to defend their purchase decisions (usually they're just trying to defend it to themselves).
like you said, you don't see your BM as an equal to your 6920, so we're on the same page.
i agreed with much of what you said before, it was just the barrel statement i disagreed with for the most part.
honestly, i'm not even sure why we were arguing to begin with. i think it was largely a misunderstanding on both sides
as far as "respect", i shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as Iraqgunz ;)
i'd never look down on anyone because of what weapon they chose to use. its just too often people have inferiority complexes about a weapon and they go overboard trying to defend their purchase decisions (usually they're just trying to defend it to themselves).
like you said, you don't see your BM as an equal to your 6920, so we're on the same page.
i agreed with much of what you said before, it was just the barrel statement i disagreed with for the most part.
honestly, i'm not even sure why we were arguing to begin with. i think it was largely a misunderstanding on both sides
as far as "respect", i shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as Iraqgunz ;)
We are on the same page....It's like knives ...I own Busse ,Strider.....and Cold Steel.Is CS the same as Busse/Strider....no...but it's not junk (some...lol)
RogerinTPA
07-19-09, 07:27
5 pages? really? wow.
BM/OLY/RRA/Stag owners are like the Borg on Star Trek, "Resistance is Futile" They will defend their choice to the bitter end. God know why.:rolleyes:
BM/OLY/RRA/Stag owners are like the Borg on Star Trek, "Resistance is Futile" They will defend their choice to the bitter end. God know why.:rolleyes:
I believe the reason is simple. Folks paid good money for a product. They should expect it to be everything that it is supposed to be. Way too many gun shops spout the "just as good as" mantra. To them it's all about profit. Add to that the complete lack of any real knowledge of the part of the staff.
Often these brands due just fine in peoples hands because most folks just don't shoot enough or in a compressed time period to make difference. It's only when these brands are placed in a real world use environment, such as one simulated in a high round count class that the differences become apparent.
As has already been stated, with the cost of making them right (not including qualified labor) you could have purchased a tier one brand to begin with. Unfortunately that's one thing you will never hear in most gun shops. Colt's/LMT's/BCM's/Noveske's/Larue's/Etc. are just not as readily available and/or the initial investment for the purchaser is higher so there's less chance of making a sale.
what makes BM as one of his options ?
RogerinTPA
07-20-09, 08:36
I believe the reason is simple. Folks paid good money for a product. They should expect it to be everything that it is supposed to be. Way too many gun shops spout the "just as good as" mantra. To them it's all about profit. Add to that the complete lack of any real knowledge of the part of the staff.
Often these brands due just fine in peoples hands because most folks just don't shoot enough or in a compressed time period to make difference. It's only when these brands are placed in a real world use environment, such as one simulated in a high round count class that the differences become apparent.
As has already been stated, with the cost of making them right (not including qualified labor) you could have purchased a tier one brand to begin with. Unfortunately that's one thing you will never hear in most gun shops. Colt's/LMT's/BCM's/Noveske's/Larue's/Etc. are just not as readily available and/or the initial investment for the purchaser is higher so there's less chance of making a sale.
Agreed. Add to that, gunshops in the real world are still marking up 6920s($1799.00 locally), priced WAY higher that rrastagolybushmaster's, setting in the rack next to them. Folks are going to go for the the inexpensive, cheaper products every time.
That's why they sell more.
recon by fire
07-20-09, 10:29
A freind of mine wants to buy an AR but is stuck between the M&P15 and the BUSHMASTER which one would be a good rifle for him. I have a M&P15 and love it but he wants more opinions.
Ok, here is my opinion. It's real simple. Take a lower made by who ever, DPMS, BM, RRA, Stag, etc. and put a BCM or LMT upper on it. (with a BCM or LMT bolt carrier group).
Ok, here is my opinion. It's real simple. Take a lower made by who ever, DPMS, BM, RRA, Stag, etc. and put a BCM or LMT upper on it. (with a BCM or LMT bolt carrier group).
or rather get a brand that fits your budget and start with it.
recon by fire
07-21-09, 13:44
or rather get a brand that fits your budget and start with it.
The guy is trying to choose between a Bushmaster and a S&W. That means he can atleast afford a BM or a S&W. I just looked at prices, and like I suggested, to take a DPMS complete lower and put an LMT upper on it (with LMT BCG, and including hand guards, charging handle, and BUIS) only costs roughly $100-$200 more than a similar S&W M&P rifle for $1003 delivered from budsgunshop.com. You could nit pick about how I did my math, but the point is, if someone can afford to buy a $1000 rifle, why not save up another $100-$200, and get a better quality rifle?
BushmasterFanBoy
07-21-09, 18:17
A freind of mine wants to buy an AR but is stuck between the M&P15 and the BUSHMASTER which one would be a good rifle for him. I have a M&P15 and love it but he wants more opinions.
Definitely get the MP15, check the chart out, its a much better weapon. Still, there are better weapons out there, but the M&P15 isn't bad, its apparently gotten the nod from the Magpul Dynamics crew as well. ;)
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