Preferred general purpose rifle - barrel length & gas system

[BAC]

Over the last year, I've learned quite a lot about the AR platform as a whole from when I first bought my mutt rifle. After deciding that I wanted to make a general purpose rifle, I couldn't figure out which of the two popular carbine barrel lengths I wanted, nor which gas system should accompany it. I sat down and poured over the various 14.5" vs 16" barrel and "what's your favorite gas system" threads, but none of them really had any direction for the discussions; a middy 16" might be nice for a competition gun, but for home defense a 14.5" w/ carbine gas system might be preferable if an SBR isn't available. Short and sweet of it is, I haven't found any topics that tied together barrel length and gas system based on how the rifle would be used.

This prompted me to post this poll in an effort to compile all of the scattered information comparing barrel lengths and gas systems into a single, coherent topic: given the options presented, what is your preferred barrel length and gas system for a general-purpose, jack-of-all-trades rifle? Feel free to share your reasoning, too!


*As a side note, I'm not looking for advice on a new build. This poll is purely to gather info on folks' preferences for barrel length & gas system on 'general-purpose' rifles.



-B

[RogerinTPA]

For an all around use carbine (just having only one), I go with the 16 inch or 14.5, with a permanently attached FS, in a mid-length DI gun. I have 2 carbine length and 2 mid-lengths. I prefer the middies. The middies are not as rough on your gun parts as the carbine, and a little more milder on the recoil. The most economical route would be to go with a lower from Grant (G&RTactical), one of his custom BCM Mid-length builds, and BCM FA BCG, comes to mind. Unless you have a real need to go NFA, other than just to have a SBR for shits and giggles, the middy is all you realistically need. Besides, if you ever have to sell it or trade up, you won't lose the money you put in it (because it's engraved with your info). YMMV.

[SeriousStudent]

I agree with rharris2163. Get Grant to build you up a blem Noveske lower, or maybe a Charles Daly lower. He can put his LPK in it, and a Noveske QD endplate. Should not run much over $350. Or you can get a BCM lower as well.

Put a BCM middie topside. Buy either the Aimpoint C3 or H1, with an American defense mount, and save a bunch of money. Unless you happen to be walking off the back ramp of a C-130 for a living, that optic will do all you ever need.

I'm a big fan of the 16' middie uppers. With a Smith Vortex, there is very little flash. A FSC556 is louder, but has almost no muzzle rise.

Rob_s had a good post on his site for a basic "do-all" carbine, and it was pretty well reasoned.

[Thomas M-4]

14.5'' carbine gas system
16'' mid length gas system

For the same reason rharris2163 states.

[Failure2Stop]

While I have a preference for a mid-length gas system on Gp guns that are identaically equipped, I would bear in mind that balance and comfort of carry will mean a lot more than anything else for a true GP carbine.

[a1fabweld]

I don't like the fact that a 14.5 has to be SBR or permanent FH to remain legal. It limits options with a pinned FH. A 16" middy will fill just about all roles IMO.

[BAC]

Just to be clear, I'm not asking for advice on a rifle to build (I'll edit this into the original post). I'm trying to figure out what the vast body of M4C members prefer strictly in terms of barrel length and gas system for a general purpose rifle. As I've said, this last year's been an educational one for me, but I don't believe I've seen any topic that's tried to tie together the "what gas system do you prefer" and "what barrel length do you prefer" into a unified subject.



While I have a preference for a mid-length gas system on Gp guns that are identaically equipped, I would bear in mind that balance and comfort of carry will mean a lot more than anything else for a true GP carbine.

Should I interpret this to mean that even, say, a 20" barrel w/ rifle-length gas system can be a GP gun, if properly balanced and comfortable to carry?


-B

[bkb0000]

i've never been all that clear on the term "general purpose" to begin with. my vote was for 14.5 with carbine gas, however- if we're talking about a weapon that's gonna be for home-defense, truck gun, drilling, CQB in general.. then i think that's the best configuration available if we can't SBR.

middy gas on 14.5's is a lot smoother recoil, beats up the gun less, and looks really cool- but i have reservations (still haven't tried it for myself yet, so take with a grain of margarita salt) about reliability issues. the dirtier and drier a gun gets, the more its gonna bog down. add fine sand, other contaminates, perhaps poor loob selection, etc, and a mid 14.5 will not operate as long as a carbine 14.5. for this reason alone, i say a true SHTF gun should be as gassed as you can get it- especially with the more duty-oriented manufacters that have smaller gas ports.

also, a middy adds weight to fore AND pushes weight forward, which you may or may not like (i actually like that part of it).

the 14.5 vs 16" debate had been had a few times... and as i've argued in those threads, 16" barrels serve very limited purposes in my opinion- Recce-style guns. I can turn around in the hallway in my house with my carbine (14.5) at-ready without touching the wall with my back or muzzle.. with my recce (16), i have to squeeze my back against the wall and carefully bring the muzzle around. This, specifically, doesn't matter that much- when does a guy need to about-face with a weapon at-ready in a hallway? just drop the muz and turn around. but it illustrates the difference between the two- one will "fit" in more situations that the other. since you don't gain any significant velocity between the two, and don't gain any accuracy between 14.5 and 16" CMV CL barrels, why would you ever get a 16 for carbine use?

my take, take it or leave it.

[Failure2Stop]

Should I interpret this to mean that even, say, a 20" barrel w/ rifle-length gas system can be a GP gun, if properly balanced and comfortable to carry?


I guess it comes down to your definition of "GP Gun".
To me it means an outdoorsy type rifle to be used in various situations from popping vermin to mid-range precision, would be appliable to hunting boars or SHTF. While caipable of being used inside, it is more of a precision urban piece. Big guns can be used inside with decent effect, sub-optimal certainly, but possible if pressed. I draw a distinction between a GP Carbine and an HD Carbine- the GP is intended for use from 5 to 600 yards, whereas the HD is from 0 to 100 yards.

Anyway, I figure that a GP gun will be carried a lot and shot a little. It's the kind of gun I would walk the back field with to find vermin. A properly balanced gun carries much better than an unbalanced gun. The weight distribution should put the center of gravity between the slip-ring and the mag-well. This allows the shooter to position the weapon however he wants and be able to maintain that orientation for a long time without having to fight the gun constantly. Further, a properly balanced gun will integrate with grip to become more natural in the firing platform, driving to target more efficiently and tacking moving targets more smoothly.

I understand your intent, and I see nothing wrong with getting people's opinion on the matter, but I think that anything between 14.5 to 18 inch barrels can be a good GP platform. 20" guns don't balance right with any collapsible stock, and offler little advantage over an 18" barrel, so they are out right away. 14.5 guns are light, easy to carry, and much better than 20" when used indoors, but lack terminal performance at intermediate ranges, even with good ammo. 18" barrels offer very good terminal performance out to longer distances, are more handy than 20" guns, and balance well if the right stock is used- however they are almost as bad as a 20" gun indoors (if that matters to the individual) and are distinctly heavier than a similarly equipped 14.5 gun. As I see it the 16" offers the best balance, the most favorable compromise. They can be extremely accurate, fed good ammo they have decent terminal performance range, they are usable in a wide variety of supported positions, not too bad indoors, are easily balanced due to the wide variety of handguards and stocks on the market, and are only slightly heavier than their 14.5 counterparts.

Choice in optics will also make a huge difference in applicability and employability.

Gas-system, while pertinent to operation, longetivity of parts, and recoil, makes much less difference to me than the above factors. Certainly if afforded the choice I would go with a middie over a CAR gas system in a 16" gun, but not at the expense of quality and balance. Regardless, the barrels that I am interested in for 16" guns all run the "Recce" route, and they are pretty much all middies.

To me it's one of those things where the end result is greater than the sum of the parts if all is done with an eye toward harmony.

[Beat Trash]

I've been using 16" guns for "all around usage" for alot of years.

When I was in the Marines n the early 1980's, M16 came in one barrel length, 20". So I have no experience with true 14.5" M4's.

The 16" guns balance well for me. I like the extra few FPS I can get out of the 1.5" of barrel. If I could legally own a 14.5" gun w/o having to register it as a SBR, or adding the longer flash suppressor, then I might think about it. But once I step outside of my home, then it's a non-issue for me.

I prefer the carbine gas system as it's what I know. I've been using it for so many years without any issues, that I'm not in any hurry to "fix what's not broken".

I'm not saying the carbine system is better than the mid-lengths. The mid-length system could very well be better for 16" guns. I hear alot of positive things on the internet about middies.

But what I am saying is I've been using the 16" carbine length guns long before the internet was around, much less people discussing the mid-length systems on the net.

I don't have the time or the money to experiment. I've got a Colt 6920 for each member of the household, an old 6520 that saw me through some interesting times, and has earned it's retirement in the back of my safe, and one 20" gun for when I feel like playing around in the Navy matches. Might not be the most current systems, but it works for me, and for my needs.

[BAC]

F2S, thank you for the explanation. I hadn't thought to include 18" barrels with middy or rifle systems as part of the 'general purpose' equation. Your description of 'general purpose' is basically what I had in mind, put into better words than I could.

Interesting responses so far; more than 80% favor 16" barrels, and most of those are middy's. Given F2S's description, I can't say I'm surprised.


-B

[markm]

14.5 carbean gas system is my most often shot gun. It's great for everything out to 400 yards. It balances well, and it has a mount for my silencer.

For whatever reason, it's the gun I'm most often shooting... even over of my SBRs.

[SkiDevil]

I would have to say that the best all-around rifle may just be the 16" Mid-Length barreled carbine.

SkiDevil

http://i757.photobucket.com/albums/xx220/SkiDevil01/NoveskePhotos0191.jpg

[vicious_cb]

I would have to say that the best all-around rifle may just be the 16" Mid-Length barreled carbine.

SkiDevil

http://i757.photobucket.com/albums/xx220/SkiDevil01/NoveskePhotos0191.jpg

I had a recce once much like the one pictured above as a GP carbine, Ive since got rid of it as it didnt balance well and it was a bitch to carry around, Im sorry but I cant seem to find a use for a 9+ lbs CARBINE. I have since moved on to a 14.5" carbine gas with a gov't profile barrel and an aimpoint. This will handle everything I would realistically encounter and then some.

[SkiDevil]

I had a recce once much like the one pictured above as a GP carbine, Ive since got rid of it as it didnt balance well and it was a bitch to carry around, Im sorry but I cant seem to find a use for a 9+ lbs CARBINE. I have since moved on to a 14.5" carbine gas with a gov't profile barrel and an aimpoint. This will handle everything I would realistically encounter and then some.

I haven't weighed the rifle but it probably does weigh around 9 Lbs. or more. :eek: I personally don't find the rifle to be heavy at all. Then again I weigh 255 Lbs. and bench press about twice my body weight.

Plus, the Noveske Recon SS 16" barrel is one of the most accurate I have EVER used.

-I have a Noveske N4 too. Yes, I agree the shorter rifles are handy. ;)
But, for a general purpose rifle I prefer a 16" carbine with an optic. Just one person's opinion.

Glad to hear your new rifle works better for you.

SkiDevil

[rob_s]

Give me this, maybe in a 6.8, and with an Aimpoint T-1 in place of the C3 and factory magnifier in place of the PoBoy and a belt-pouch to stow the magnifier in. 7.5 lbs unloaded as is without the light and magnifier, so the T-1 should put it just a hair over 7.

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/BCM/BCMwithpoboyweight-1.jpg