View Full Version : Superior Barrels' - "Hard Blue" Process
Is anyone familiar with Superior Barrels' product (i.e., Lothar Walther barrels with Superior Barrels proprietary processing).
Their website is http://www.superiorbarrels.com and they are featured in the current issue of Small Arms Review.
constructor
07-10-09, 22:29
I can tell you it is so damn hard carbide bits will not touch it, or will a grinding wheel. It is also very corrosion resistant.
I don't think they come up with the process, there are several companies in the midwest that do that treatment. It is a type of Nitro-Carburizing.
Proprietary Hard Blue treated with an estimated 20+K rounds accurate barrel life.
is the bore "hard blue?"
constructor
07-11-09, 01:39
Yes it is blued inside and out, we tested 2 -6.8 versions in Texas last Aug.
they were part of the 6.8 performance test but they were so hard and slick the pressure trace strain gages would not adhere to the barrel.
The "Blue" is for stainless and I think Superior may be the only ones that use it.
They are both Ferritic Nitro Carburizing processes but different purge, rinse and quench sequences.
The 4150 CM black barrels are used by LWRC, POF, some military contractors and US at the moment, could be others.
The same treatment is used on the minigun barrels and some of the newer VMMGs.
how does hard blue compare to CL for durability?
sniperfrog
07-11-09, 14:01
how does hard blue compare to CL for durability?
I'm not sure anyone has enough rounds through one of their barrels to say for sure. John and Matt of Superior Barrels are great guys and John is a former rocket scientist. I think all of their "hard blue" barrels are now chrome moly. They have found that there is no benefit to stainless when using the hard blue treatment. They even say that their testing showed the CM is more corrosion resistant than the SS when both are hard blued. I have one of there 20" barrels but havn't put it together yet. One thing about their barrels is that they're not really designed to be tactical. They're more for accuracy minded individuals like highpower and varmint shooters. They don't offer pinned on FSBs or gasblocks either.
I'm not sure anyone has enough rounds through one of their barrels to say for sure. John and Matt of Superior Barrels are great guys and John is a former rocket scientist. I think all of their "hard blue" barrels are now chrome moly. They have found that there is no benefit to stainless when using the hard blue treatment. They even say that their testing showed the CM is more corrosion resistant than the SS when both are hard blued. I have one of there 20" barrels but havn't put it together yet. One thing about their barrels is that they're not really designed to be tactical. They're more for accuracy minded individuals like highpower and varmint shooters. They don't offer pinned on FSBs or gasblocks either.
that's actually just fine with me- i've come to the conclusion that i'd rather pin my own FSB anyway, due to recent issues.
the site says they expect they'll do 15-20k before "accuracy loss." if that's true, and you get precision accuracy with that, and it's as corrosion resistant as CL, it'll kind of dodo-bird chrome-lining.
I can tell you it is so damn hard carbide bits will not touch it, or will a grinding wheel. It is also very corrosion resistant.
I don't think they come up with the process, there are several companies in the midwest that do that treatment. It is a type of Nitro-Carburizing.
The "Blue" is for stainless and I think Superior may be the only ones that use it.
They are both Ferritic Nitro Carburizing processes but different purge, rinse and quench sequences.
The 4150 CM black barrels are used by LWRC, POF, some military contractors and US at the moment, could be others.
The same treatment is used on the minigun barrels and some of the newer VMMGs.
Love ya, constructor! I was having this conversation with a fellow materials guy and I concluded that the "blue" referred to "salts" as in "salt bath" and I BELIEVED the process to be an 'advanced' ferritic nitrocarburization process which probably involved super polishing PRIOR to the process.
You are correct about CM vs. SS. With the SS ferritic nitrocarburization is softer than and less corrosion resistant than a CM sample with the same process.
I noticed that they were out of barrels (that i'd be interested in) at the moment and I do believe I'd like a Rock Creek Barrels bolt gun barrel with their process. I need to phone someone at Superior Barrels to have this discussion.
Thanks for the insight, my friend. I'll keep everyone posted on the progress.
Today is a GOOD day!
sniperfrog
07-13-09, 15:59
Love ya, constructor! I was having this conversation with a fellow materials guy and I concluded that the "blue" referred to "salts" as in "salt bath" and I BELIEVED the process to be an 'advanced' ferritic nitrocarburization process which probably involved super polishing PRIOR to the process.
You are correct about CM vs. SS. With the SS ferritic nitrocarburization is softer than and less corrosion resistant than a CM sample with the same process.
I noticed that they were out of barrels (that i'd be interested in) at the moment and I do believe I'd like a Rock Creek Barrels bolt gun barrel with their process. I need to phone someone at Superior Barrels to have this discussion.
Thanks for the insight, my friend. I'll keep everyone posted on the progress.
Today is a GOOD day!
I know Superior won't treat customer supplied barrels. Other people have asked about this, including myself, and they stated they won't do it. If your looking for a melonite treatment which is similar, take a look at hefusa.net. They have been treating barrels for benchrest shooters at a cost of $100 a barrel. Look in the bottom left corner of their homepage for info.
I know Superior won't treat customer supplied barrels. Other people have asked about this, including myself, and they stated they won't do it. If your looking for a melonite treatment which is similar, take a look at hefusa.net. They have been treating barrels for benchrest shooters at a cost of $100 a barrel. Look in the bottom left corner of their homepage for info.
Thanks, sniperfrog. I looked on their website and they stated they would not process other barrels. I understand the complexities & potential risks of doing so. I'd love to have a "match" chromoly barrel from them but they are out at the moment.
I just spoke with Mike Rock of Rock Creek Barrels (helluva guy, btw and he's a Metallurgist which I don't think any other barrel makers are). He's familiar with Lothar Walther Barrels and Superior Barrels - he has access to equipment needed to do metallurgical analysis - and the "melonite"/"tuftride"/"tennifer"/ ferritic nitrocarburization process is quietly being done by several companies including your reference. He and I were discussing the different types of nitrocarburization and I had to grab my Metallurgy text and go to LSU to obtain a Molybdenum-Oxygen phase diagram today to follow where he was going. The man's a true walking, talking, barrel making encyclopedia of knowledge! And I'm a practicing engineer who loves metallurgy but his knowledge surpasses mine.
Long story short: Stainless or Cromoly, fully stress relieved, 5R cut rifling, nitrocarburize is his belief which I share, too, though I like cold hammer forging. If the latter isn't properly stress relieved - and most aren't as they are forged very, very close to final geometry - there can be issues. I advocate cryogenic treating ANY cold hammer forged barrel anyway so it's not an issue to me. Since I don't cut on barrels I've no tools to prematurely wear out due to the CHF grain structure. :p
I'll call Superior Barrels tomorrow.
sniperfrog
07-15-09, 17:01
Thanks, sniperfrog. I looked on their website and they stated they would not process other barrels. I understand the complexities & potential risks of doing so. I'd love to have a "match" chromoly barrel from them but they are out at the moment.
I just spoke with Mike Rock of Rock Creek Barrels (helluva guy, btw and he's a Metallurgist which I don't think any other barrel makers are). He's familiar with Lothar Walther Barrels and Superior Barrels - he has access to equipment needed to do metallurgical analysis - and the "melonite"/"tuftride"/"tennifer"/ ferritic nitrocarburization process is quietly being done by several companies including your reference. He and I were discussing the different types of nitrocarburization and I had to grab my Metallurgy text and go to LSU to obtain a Molybdenum-Oxygen phase diagram today to follow where he was going. The man's a true walking, talking, barrel making encyclopedia of knowledge! And I'm a practicing engineer who loves metallurgy but his knowledge surpasses mine.
Long story short: Stainless or Cromoly, fully stress relieved, 5R cut rifling, nitrocarburize is his belief which I share, too, though I like cold hammer forging. If the latter isn't properly stress relieved - and most aren't as they are forged very, very close to final geometry - there can be issues. I advocate cryogenic treating ANY cold hammer forged barrel anyway so it's not an issue to me. Since I don't cut on barrels I've no tools to prematurely wear out due to the CHF grain structure. :p
I'll call Superior Barrels tomorrow.
I have heard Mike is a great guy to talk to. I've also heard that Mike was looking into melonite type treatments. I'd like to see Mike offer a cut-rifled barrel from the CMV mil-spec steel already finished for an AR, 16" middy with melonite. I'd buy two.
I have four rifles with Superior Barrels on them.
I was thinking about selling my carbine version.
Based on the Melonite history, I'm skeptical to say the least. Not so much on the process, but the miss-application and/or half ass mediocrity in implementing the process.
We all saw the issues with melonite and the AR barrel extension AND drilling the gas port after treatment. And we had a total failure with a shit Faxon barrel with improper treatment that Faxon did not take care of.
Any new miracle solution has an uphill battle to be proven for my disgruntled ass.
Have not had a problem with any of mine as they were assembled at Superior.
Doesn't even look like this company is still in business.
**NECRO POST**
Doesn't even look like this company is still in business.
**NECRO POST**
:jester: WTF??? LOL. Well my necro prediction was right! :laugh:
Superior was somewhere in North Georgia and sourced their very good barrels from Lothar-Walther (somewhere close to Atlanta). I think they were one of the first businesses to offer a nitrided/treated barrel.
Precision Shooting carried some very flattering long-term reviews.
I think any decent shop that can turn and chamber a blank true, then nitride and stress-relieve correctly will get the same result.
:jester: WTF??? LOL. Well my necro prediction was right! :laugh:
To be fair, it wasn't your fault, you clearly were a "victim." (I hate it when I do that) I think "Humpty" may have some splaining to do.........
Thanks for the data points sinister, I'd never heard of them until this thread popped out of the depths of M4C. Your point is probably why they're no longer in business, if that is indeed the case, I didn't look too hard for them.
I have four rifles with Superior Barrels on them.
I was thinking about selling my carbine version.
Jeeezuzzzzzz.... thanks for digging up a 13 year old thread...
Superior closed a number of years ago, maybe more. One of the owners sold off the ones he kept about 3 1/2 years ago. I am glad I got the ones I did but I need to thin down my collection as I have more than I could ever shoot.
Insofar as barrels being drilled for gas ports after treatment I know that did not happen insofar as far as Superior was concerned. How do I know this? They had no machinery. The barrel blanks went to a top AR builder in Florida (can't remember his name but his specialty was match ARs) and he did all the machining to them IN THE WHITE. All Superior did was to fire them 100 rounds to break the barrels in, then the uppers were disassembled and barrels sent for the treatment. When they returned they were reassembled and sent out.
I know others treated barrels and I have no information on them but insofar as Superior messing up barrels I have never heard of.
Superior closed about 3 1/2 years ago. I am glad I got the ones I did but I need to thin down my collection as I have more than I could ever shoot.
So you dug it up to pump up the interest in your upcoming sale?
Superior was somewhere in North Georgia and sourced their very good barrels from Lothar-Walther (somewhere close to Atlanta). I think they were one of the first businesses to offer a nitrided/treated barrel.
Precision Shooting carried some very flattering long-term reviews.
I think any decent shop that can turn and chamber a blank true, then nitride and stress-relieve correctly will get the same result.
I have a Superior Lothar Walther "Dexa" barrel that did not have their Hard Blue treatment, but used LW50 steel. It likes monolithics and whitetail. I've always wondered if LW50 is something like 17-4, or maybe the Criterion "SS410" BCM advertises, DD's "special" steel they used in their Mk12 18" stainless barrels.. lately we've seen Bartlein 400MODBB. Would be nice for someone to demystify all that.
I also remember Superior's youtube videos of "Hard Blue" barrels not taking a scratch from a rasp. Allegedly. Can't say I've been brave enough to try that on a nitrided barrel.
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