View Full Version : 9x19mm FMJ advantages?
Is there any possible advantage that FMJ features over quality JHP loads in any ballistic comparison?
For example: superior metal penetration, deeper penetration for hunting hogs, windshields?
Note: this is not an excuse to discredit JHP loads. I was simply wondering if only a handgun were available, if it would be a good idea to have a mag of FMJ 124 or 115gr +P 9mm in the car.
Regular carry/protection loads will be quality JHP loads -- Speer Gold Dot or Federal HST.
I searched and aside from loads of penetration, there did not appear to much on the sides of comparison that I could find about 9x19 FMJ.
Additionally, does .45ACP have ideal penetration characterstics to 9x19?
Cagemonkey
07-12-09, 11:56
Hey Doc. Are there any FMJ variations that would be more effective and create a larger permanent wound channel. For example FMJ SWC
Not really, unless you count Federal's EFMJ.
Wow thanks Doc.
My interest is piqued...how could good JHP loads like 124 or 147gr Gold Dot do better in penetration of windsheilds and car doors against hot 124gr 9mm?
Forgive me for asking, I like to know why things are the way they are. Finding data on the issue isn't easy either. :)
Cagemonkey
07-12-09, 15:40
Not really, unless you count Federal's EFMJ.Thanks Doc. I guess that means the Military is SOL. I don't see the M9/9mm combination going anywhere soon.
Wow thanks Doc.
My interest is piqued...how could good JHP loads like 124 or 147gr Gold Dot do better in penetration of windsheilds and car doors against hot 124gr 9mm?
What "hot 124 gr 9mm" FMJ load, specifically, are you referring to?
This 124gr FMJ +P. (http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=504905)
Looking into subgun loads for a 9mm carbine too. Probably not a lot of 9mm carbines/subguns that are rated for +P+ are there?
This 124gr FMJ +P. (http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=504905)
Ok, for starters, the ad copy for the ammo that you linked to is bogus. Winchester doesn’t make a +P 124 grain FMJ load. If you zoom in on the end-flap of the box in the picture, you can see that the ammo is actually Winchester’s 9mm NATO 124 grain FMJ load (RA9124N), which can hardly be considered “hot.” 9mm 124 grain NATO loads are not any faster than a modern standard pressure 124 grain hollow point load, such as the 124 grain Speer Gold Dot.
Secondly, most 9mm FMJ bullets are of traditional construction, meaning they are not bonded. Testing by Dr. Roberts and others has shown that bonded bullets, such as the Speer Gold Dots, perform better through barriers than bullets of traditional construction.
Here’s a close-up of the end-flap from the ad.
http://www.box.net/shared/static/n51v7qfk7s.jpg
Hah -- how I would have never caught that.
We have a pair of pistol caliber carbines, one in 9mm and the other in .40.
Probably should use 9mm 124 or 147gr +P+ hollow points for those I take it? Would be interesting to try some IMI UZI subgun ammo. Compared to even light intermediate rounds like the 5.56 there is no comparison in accuracy, range and penetration.
If you zoom in on the end-flap of the box in the picture, you can see that the ammo is actually Winchester’s 9mm NATO 124 grain FMJ load (RA9124N), which can hardly be considered “hot.” 9mm 124 grain NATO loads are not any faster than a modern standard pressure 124 grain hollow point load, such as the 124 grain Speer Gold Dot.
Actually, the 124gr NATO ammunition is at or just above the 9mm Luger SAAMI pressure specification. You can't draw too close of a conclusion about pressure from velocities alone, but FWIW the WW NATO load's velocity falls almost exactly in between the standard 124gr Gold Dot and the +p Gold Dot.
It's definitely hotter than most commercial 9mm FMJ practice ammo.
FWIW the WW NATO load's velocity falls almost exactly in between the standard 124gr Gold Dot and the +p Gold Dot.
No, it doesn't. As an example, the chronograph printout shown below is from the Speer 124 grain Gold Dot (standard pressure load) fired from a Beretta 92. The instrumental velocity at 21 feet is 1114 fps.
http://www.box.net/shared/static/cp3y2jeqay.jpg
Now take a look at the next chronograph printout. This printout is from the Winchester 9mm 124 grain NATO load fired from the same Beretta 92, fired immediately after the Gold Dot load was fired. The instrumental velocity at 21 feet is 1108 fps; 6 fps less than the standard pressure Gold Dot load.
http://www.box.net/shared/static/l7tg7c45k0.jpg
Here is some additional data comparing the 9mm NATO load (Federal's this time) to several other service loads. All loads were fired from a SIG Sauer P229 with a 3.8" barrel.
http://www.box.net/shared/static/z6hxojqjjm.jpg
All I can tell you is that both from my experience, the results of testing I've seen at two manufacturers, and the information from a federal agency I used to deal with very closely that shot both the NATO ammo and standard-pressure HydraShok, the NATO ammo was hotter. If you got chrono data contrary to that, ok.
I've seen what Todd describes. Perhaps ammo lot and individual gun/barrel variations explain this.
Anyway, when all I could get was 115gr JHPs for my 9mms (speaking about back in the day) I carried a back-up magazine of ball ammo.
Now-a-days I carry strictly duty type JHP ammo.
FWIW, in my experience the DPX penetrates hard objects like car doors far better than ball, and it still expands.
Unless you need a bullet to shoot completely through a gelatin block there is no advantage to carrying ball ammo.
If I remember this ammo is hot and NYPD did some extensive testing with it.
All I can tell you is that both from my experience, the results of testing I've seen at two manufacturers, and the information from a federal agency I used to deal with very closely that shot both the NATO ammo and standard-pressure HydraShok, the NATO ammo was hotter. If you got chrono data contrary to that, ok.
Hydra-Shok??? That’s what you’re basing your comparison on? http://www.box.net/shared/static/s112hu8p8e.gif My grandmother runs faster than Hydra-Shok. The standard pressure Hydra-Shok is some of the slowest duty ammo on the market. The 124 grain +P+ Hydra-Shok is hardly faster than the standard pressure 124 grain Gold Dot.
http://www.box.net/shared/static/05k0v7x6ij.jpg
Is there any possible advantage that FMJ features over quality JHP loads in any ballistic comparison?
For example: superior metal penetration, deeper penetration for hunting hogs, windshields?
Note: this is not an excuse to discredit JHP loads. I was simply wondering if only a handgun were available, if it would be a good idea to have a mag of FMJ 124 or 115gr +P 9mm in the car.
124gr+P Gold Dots penetrated car doors better than 115gr and 124FMJ that I tested IIRC.
Regular carry/protection loads will be quality JHP loads -- Speer Gold Dot or Federal HST.
I really REALLY like 115gr DPX in a 9mm. THAT will penetrate your car!
I searched and aside from loads of penetration, there did not appear to much on the sides of comparison that I could find about 9x19 FMJ.
In pine boards IIRC it penetrated around 3.5 boards, .45ACP penetrated around 2, and 357SIG around 4.5. In hard targets like car doors, it was about the same in comparison of effectiveness.
Additionally, does .45ACP have ideal penetration characterstics to 9x19?
.45ACP will do better (less deflection) through windshields, 9mm will go through more sheet metal.
I have a 500rnd lot of GDHP +P on the way so I should be set on that.
Are there any -hot- SMG loads in JSP or JHP that ya'll know of? That Hirtenberger and the IMI SMG stuff is all FMJ. L7A1 would likely be way too hot anyways.
What would that 127gr Win Ranger T +P+ be like in a 9mm carbine?
What about SMG 10x22mm loads?
EDIT: oh, and does that 9mm 124gr +P GD go through both car doors or just one? I know it will go through one door and into the BG behind it but what about both doors?
Always good to know pragmatic limitations of ammo -- part of the mindset, tactics, skillset and gear order ;)
What pistol was those loads launched from? I'm getting noticeably higher velocity from the same loads from my G17 and G34.
The whole SMG "hot" ammo thing is a myth in my experience. Everything that I have seen marketed has SMG ammo isn't loaded any hotter than regular 9mm ammo, and often clocks slower than various +p JHP rounds that I have checked.
If you think about the operation of a blowback operated SMG, it doesn't make sense to load ammo any hotter for them.
For what it's worth when we've shot cars extensively with FMJs the ground was LITTERED with jacket fragments.
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