View Full Version : Do I really need an optic?
Bread is People
07-12-09, 11:14
Well, to sum it up, I can't afford to buy a quality optic for my carbine setup. I'd like something in the future, but realistically, it would probably be next summer before I actually commit to one. I was thinking maybe some kind of eotech, but I don't know.
My question is: If I've got a good set of iron sights, do I really need an optic for me to perform any better?
I'd like to hear from guys on both sides of the issue, so any input is appreciated.
Optics greatly increase the speed of getting on target(magnification or no magnification). I believe that you should learn your irons first and move up to an optic when you get the extra cash. Spend some time getting to know your rifle and your irons, but I suggest eventually adding an optic.
The VORTEX Strike Fire is only about $150, and comes with a mount...
From the searches I did here, it appears to be a decent optic for the price...
If you want a battery life that will outlast our current presidents term in office, or you want to play catch over the Grand Canyon, get a Aimpoint. :D
Look on the forum here, sometimes there is good deals on used ones.
I have no idea what type of musket you have. Having said that my first issued weapon was an M16A1 rifle and I had no problem making hits out to 300M with the standard iron sights. I say learn the irons first and when you have some money saved up then get that optic that you want. Don't buy some Chinese knock off POS or other optic just because you feel you need one.
yallknowho
07-12-09, 12:01
Not being able to afford one for a year allows you some good time to practice with your irons. you might not have the money, but consider taking a class with just your irons too, before you get the optic.
As others have stated, stay with irons until you can afford a decent optic.
Do not cheap out and buy a Chinese airsoft knockoff......that's just wasting money you could have put towards the real deal.
I'm a big proponent of learning irons first, then you can take advantage of a red dot.
In low light, red dots rule, period.
CryingWolf
07-12-09, 13:02
Like a few have said; "Stick with the irons until you can afford a good optic." Optics are just faster and more accurate but anything can go wrong; Murphy's law and all that crap. I think because optics can fail, brings up the importance of learning irons.
With all that said; look around for deals, I won't get into the Aimpoint vs EOTech debate. I got my EOTech 517 at Cabela's for $429 they have the 512 for $409. I am sure there maybe killer deals on the internet for both Aimpoint and EOTech. You can also look around for a used Aimpoint or EOTech.
i love iron sights, but for me anything over 100 yards becomes work using them. i bought an eotech because i wanted a red dot for work. it's nice and i can easily have fun @ 200+ yards with it. so really it comes down to how you plan on using your rifle. a weekend plinker? iron sights are enough. precision target? at least a 1-3x scope.
mine is used for weekend shooting and a patrol rifle with the possibility of cqb so the eotech was a must for me. it's hard to beat a good rear sight though. i have the troy folding on mine.
SWATcop556
07-12-09, 14:39
Iron sights have been killing people since before any of us were born. Nothing wrong with using irons only. One of my rifles is a bone stock, nothing added, carry handle 6920. I use it when I just want to work on irons and refresh my skills.
A RDS will make you get on target faster, followup shots will be more accurate, and in low-light I feel damn near mandatory in this day in age.
When it comes to optics buy cheap, buy twice. And to quickly touch on the EO v AP debate, you can get a used M2/M3 for mid $300+$100 or so for a good mount. Beats the shit out of an EO any day.
SwatDawg15
07-12-09, 14:48
Iron sights have been killing people since before any of us were born. Nothing wrong with using irons only. One of my rifles is a bone stock, nothing added, carry handle 6920. I use it when I just want to work on irons and refresh my skills.
A RDS will make you get on target faster, followup shots will be more accurate, and in low-light I feel damn near mandatory in this day in age.
When it comes to optics buy cheap, buy twice. And to quickly touch on the EO v AP debate, you can get a used M2/M3 for mid $300+$100 or so for a good mount. Beats the shit out of an EO any day.
Well said
Since you don't have the funds for an optic at this time, in the meantime, utilize the time to become competent with iron sights as well as doing research on the optics that will suit your needs. There are many different optics available for different situations. Keep in mind, optics can fail for a variety of reason(s) and you will end up utilizing your iron sight. As you mentioned you have limited fund, choose wisely, buy quality and buy once as you do get what you pay for.
Bread is People
07-12-09, 18:15
Great stuff guys, thanks! I guess I'm on the right track already.
Now for another question. If I'm going to be optic-less for a while now, should I bother to invest in some night sight retrofits for my irons? I've been using just a detachable carry handle so far and I just got my hands on an LMT rear buis; they are basically the same thing anyways and from my limited experience thus far, low light shooting is tough (it gets dark fast here in the woods) so night sights might not be such a bad idea.
I've got a pretty good selection with meprolight and ameriglo from where I work ( http://www.topgunsupply.com/ameriglo-tritum-night-sight-set-ar-15-front_post_peep-rear.html and http://www.topgunsupply.com/meprolight-tritium-sights-with-2-dot_peep-rear-ar-15.html ), but on the other hand, it's $$$ that could be put towards a good optic. Anyone have any experience with night sights on an AR?
There are are back-up tritium front sights on the HD carbines at my house. IME , the tritium rears are a waste of time and money , but the glow dot or bar fronts are worthwhile. Even with Aimpoints as primaries , I still like to keep a night front sight back-up mounted. I installed a new XS stripe last week because the older Trig was getting dim.
I suggest looking at several different brands/types to see which work best for you.
Jay Cunningham
07-12-09, 19:13
Great stuff guys, thanks! I guess I'm on the right track already.
Now for another question. If I'm going to be optic-less for a while now, should I bother to invest in some night sight retrofits for my irons? I've been using just a detachable carry handle so far and I just got my hands on an LMT rear buis; they are basically the same thing anyways and from my limited experience thus far, low light shooting is tough (it gets dark fast here in the woods) so night sights might not be such a bad idea.
I've got a pretty good selection with meprolight and ameriglo from where I work ( http://www.topgunsupply.com/ameriglo-tritum-night-sight-set-ar-15-front_post_peep-rear.html and http://www.topgunsupply.com/meprolight-tritium-sights-with-2-dot_peep-rear-ar-15.html ), but on the other hand, it's $$$ that could be put towards a good optic. Anyone have any experience with night sights on an AR?
Save the cabbage for the optic! You'll have enough before you know it if you don't fritter it away on other junk!
I'm also saving up to buy a quality optic. I'm going to be patient this time. I'd rather buy one and get it right the first time.
As others have said, save your money instead of buying junk. I was in the same boat as you, and just found an amazing deal on an M2.
I may have missed it, but do you have a dedicated light for your carbine? If you have $100 burning a hole in your pocket, get a Surefire package from Grant. It will help your low-light issues, and you will eventually buy one anyways.
I have a jar with "Aimpoint" written on it.I drop money in it every pay day ,sometimes its just change but it adds up.think of it this way the first thing the Military does in BRM is train you on the Irons.then later comes the RDS.so just train with the Irons until you save the Money Buy a good sight that will fit the task you want your rifle for.use the time you have saving to read up on which sight will be best for you.
SWATcop556
07-12-09, 21:48
Great stuff guys, thanks! I guess I'm on the right track already.
Now for another question. If I'm going to be optic-less for a while now, should I bother to invest in some night sight retrofits for my irons? I've been using just a detachable carry handle so far and I just got my hands on an LMT rear buis; they are basically the same thing anyways and from my limited experience thus far, low light shooting is tough (it gets dark fast here in the woods) so night sights might not be such a bad idea.
I've got a pretty good selection with meprolight and ameriglo from where I work ( http://www.topgunsupply.com/ameriglo-tritum-night-sight-set-ar-15-front_post_peep-rear.html and http://www.topgunsupply.com/meprolight-tritium-sights-with-2-dot_peep-rear-ar-15.html ), but on the other hand, it's $$$ that could be put towards a good optic. Anyone have any experience with night sights on an AR?
IMHO the tritium irons for the AR are just a good way of parting money from someone who has to have the best wiz-bang shit on their gun. Are they completely worthless, no, but just damn near.
Here's a test I have people do that say they "need" the tritium on their rifles. Take them to the range when its low-light/ no-light (you can even do this in your house using dryfire techniques). Have them get at bad breath HD distances to 15 yards. Utilizing a good white light your are able to easily see the outline of your irons in the light as you focus on your front sight and target. Once the target is illuminated you can't even see the tritium anyways, same as on a handgun with a weapon mounted light.
Then there are people that say "What if I don't want to give away my position with light before I take a shot." I say if you are taking a shot where you have not properly identified your target as a threat by illumination, then you are a ****ing idiot.
Just my .02
You'd be surprised how accurate iron sights can be if you learn to use them properly. However, they'll never match the speed of a high quality optical sight.
Smuckatelli
07-12-09, 22:13
My 2 cents worth. As many have said, get comfortable with your iron sights first. You have time to figure out which optiv=cs you need.
Something to keep in mind, my daughter has been having no problems hitting targets for score from 600 yards using the 6920.
I feel the need to point out that the increased speed provided by using an RDS is fractions of a second, not like 1.7 seconds to hit with an Aimpoint and 10 seconds to hit with iron sights. It can certainly make a difference, but, as others have stated, becoming proficient with irons first is a wise move.
Save your money for a real Acog. I got a new TA31RCO-M4CP last week for $900. You just got to wait for the good deals.
But if your money is tight and wanted a optic for cheap then get a Primary Arms M3 clone with a 5X magnify for $200. Like the Votex sight, they are well design and held zero even after many rounds fired. Chinese made but not a POS.
Link: http://www.primaryarms.com/product.sc;jsessionid=C7C63722CEF7AD8E3D5DE7748CD4B3EA.qscstrfrnt03?categoryId=5&productId=66
This is what I was able to do with this sight today(18 rounds) after firing 200.
http://i707.photobucket.com/albums/ww75/getchevyn/PrimaryArmsSightin.jpg
SWATcop556
07-12-09, 23:40
Save the $$$ you would spend on the chinese shit and the tritium sights and you've got a used M2/M3 and a Larue/ADM mount. There was one for sale here for about $350.
Why get something "until you have the money to buy what you want."
Just use the irons. Chinese shit stays on airsoft and TOS DPMS!
As others have said, save the money until you're ready for the optic that you want. Don't buy cheap unless you want it to perform cheap.
Until then, learn your zero with your point of aim/point of impact and the rise/fall of your round at distances closer to your target than your zero distance and beyond your zero distance.
The RDS does add some advantages, especially in low light, but as mentioned if you don't ID your target then you don't have a need to press the trigger.
I am one of the ones that enjoys working out with iron sights and enjoy them very much.
I have a Springfield SOCOM 16 that came with a tritium front dot and that's the only reason I have the sight - because it came with it. I wouldn't spend the money on one personally.
kihnspiracy
07-13-09, 04:58
Practice with your irons first. Then save your pennies and buy either an Aimpoint or ACOG.:D
Failure2Stop
07-13-09, 06:04
As SAWTcop1911 pointed out earlier, the 0-2 sight and a white light are a viable solution to close-range work. In fact, using the white-light will generally make the tritium irrelevant, as you will have a stark contrast between the front-lit irons and the illuminated target.
This solution does not work all that well if shooting at distances past about 50 to 100 meters (depending on light), and is a bit of a tactical error. In these situations the tritium sights will enable more efficient sight alignment, however, sight picture and target ID will be quite difficult.
People get wound up in RDSs thinking that they enable some huge "speed" increase. There are some very distinct benefits in a quality RDS over irons, but flat-range, daylight, low-stress, conventional employment times will not be all that drastic in difference. This is not at all to say that irons are just as good as a RDS, but rather that their real benefit lies elsewhere.
If you are proficient with irons, you will understand the benefits of the quality RDS when you switch over.
For those that may have missed it, let me reiterate. DO NOT BUY CHINESE KNOCK OFF BULLSHIT. For one thing they are ripping off the hard work and R/D that companies put into building a quality product. Second they may work but at some point they will fail. Save your money and buy a quality optic.
Agree with the above that say don't bother with the Chinese crap. An Aimpoint C3 in Aimpoint mount is $450+/-. Buy a cheap knockoff and you'll only be setting yourself backwards since eventually you'll wind up with no money AND no optic, and have to start saving from scratch again.
I like Tritium fronts , but the mounted light would be ( and has been ) the first thing that I would get on a limited budget.
I have two lights mounted on my personal carbine -- which might help to clarify my position on white light.
ETA: And a mounted light is not a substitute for a hand held.
Beat Trash
07-13-09, 09:43
You'd be surprised how accurate iron sights can be if you learn to use them properly. However, they'll never match the speed of a high quality optical sight.
This pretty much sums it up.
I too started life as a young Marine, way back when dinosaurs roamed the earth, and the issued rifle was an M16A1. I learned how to use the sights.
Please listen to those who tell you to save until you get the quality optic you want, and not to waste time and money on cheap Chinese knock-offs. The guy with an "Aimpoint Jar" is on the right track. He'll have his aimpoint before he knows it, without having to take a hit on a credit card.
As for putting trittium sights on, well, to each his own, but I don't. My personal carbine is used for home defense, and occasionally for self defense going to and from work as an LEO (when I find that I have managed to piss off some of our "Customers").
I wanted a white light on my gun to ID the threat, especially for HD, as I have a family. I mounted a Surefire G2L light on the side of the front sight base using a Midwest Industries FSB rail mount. I have found that the light illuminates the front sight base enough to get a clear sight picture w/o going to trittium.
Try it some time. Take your empty carbine and hold/rubber band, ect. a small light such as a G2 to the front sight base. Go into a dark room and shoulder the carbine, then activate the light.
Good Luck
You'd be surprised how accurate iron sights can be if you learn to use them properly. However, they'll never match the speed of a high quality optical sight.
I can match the speed of an optic all day long. That's the myth... Anyone willing to put a little effort in practicing his irons, understanding hold over, and employing the front sight only method for contact distance shooting can be just as fast, if not FASTER with irons.
I, to this day still have not put an RDS on any of my ARs. I have one on my 10/22 for the hell of it, but not on my fighting guns.
In about all of the carbean classes I've taken, the instructor has asked that the students take off or at least turn off the dot for a portion of the class. And none of my instructors run dot sights OR have friends at aimpoint who give them sights for free..... so there's less of a bias there in my opinion.
KevinB made the best, legitimate, arguement for an RDS here a while back. Although he admitted that he was equally fast with his irons, the RDS helped out in adverse fighting conditions..... Smoke, dust, etc. The dot sights do offer some benefits, but for an accomplished shooter, speed shouldn't be a factor.
I bought a mount for an aimpoint and was getting really close to picking one up, but now I'm thinking the money can be better spent on other preps.
Smuckatelli
07-13-09, 11:35
Keep in mind, the idea behind the optics is for rapid target engagement by troops that may not have had enough time training with iron sights. With that being said, there are advanced ways to leverage optics that make them worth every penny that you spend on them....after you have mastered the iron sights.
Target Movement
Lighting
Weather
Shooter Movement
If you can eliminate those four variables (and others) then Irons sights can do very very well.
Its not until your moving, and/or lighting is less than optimal, that you really notice the advantages of an optic.
As well the maginified sights give great target discrimination and detection at range (not such an issue for civilians in America - Thank God)
The 6 accepted Tier1 units in the world
CAG
DevGru
22 SAS
JTF-2
SASR
GSG-9
All use optics - now given they have the lead in NLI responce that may be a small clue, that optics usage has a grounded need in reality.
All weapons need a light, and you need a handheld as well.
Smuckatelli
07-13-09, 12:11
Target Movement
Lighting
Weather
Shooter Movement
If you can eliminate those four variables (and others) then Irons sights can do very very well.
I wouldn't say eliminate, I would say train to those four variables. The training really breaks down to how much time do you have to train.
The CQB teams that use the shoothouse in Northwest Cheasapeake do very well with the iron sights.
RaisinKane
07-13-09, 12:24
Look into the CSAT rear iron sight by XS Sights. It is a very fast iron sight.
Failure2Stop
07-13-09, 12:25
If you have been in similar gunfights with a good RDS and with nothing but a set of irons you will probably develop a preference for a good RDS. I have and do, and all my friends that have, do. In every situation that I know, having an applicable quality optic will enable the shooter to out-perform themself with irons.
Just because irons are workable does not at all mean that they are equal or superior to a quality RDS.
To echo what F2S says but from my side of the fence, the same can be said of competition. We have some guys that shoot with us that do very well with iron sights, and we have some guys that shoot optics and win but would likely STILL win with irons, but when you factor in shooting moving targets on the move in reduced light (our matches are from 18:30 to 21:30) and from unconventional positions and from behind, cover, optics rule the day.
Smuckatelli
07-13-09, 13:04
Guys, I'm not saying that irons are superior to optics......I don't want to throw away my hogstooth.;)
From the op's initial post, without the funds available to purchase good optics now....IMHO, he'd be better off learning the ins & outs of irons until he can get a good optic.
Training to shoot with half a$$ optics will do more damage than training to shoot using iron sights. The minute that the half a$$ goes down and if he isn't comfortable with iron......:eek:
When the trainees in my family get second nature with the irons....the TA31s will be bought.
Just because irons are workable does not at all mean that they are equal or superior to a quality RDS.
I don't think anyone's saying irons are superior. They are superior in some roles as an RDS can be much superior in different roles.
I don't think it's an issue with the majority of shooters on this site, but I get a sense that there's a dependence on technology when it comes to the RDS systems out there. I guess it's no biggie, because those peckerheads probably run shotguns for defense anyway. :p
CarlosDJackal
07-13-09, 13:37
Depends on your purpose. If you don't just plan on using your carbine for self-defense or duty; then spend the money on some quality trigger time. Just buy an optic later on when you're able.
If you think your life will depend on whether or not you can make a hit at low to no-light situations; buy the best optic you can afford (I highly recommend the T-1 or H-1). Good luck!!
Iron sights have been killing people since before any of us were born. Nothing wrong with using irons only. One of my rifles is a bone stock, nothing added, carry handle 6920. I use it when I just want to work on irons and refresh my skills.
A RDS will make you get on target faster, followup shots will be more accurate, and in low-light I feel damn near mandatory in this day in age.
When it comes to optics buy cheap, buy twice. And to quickly touch on the EO v AP debate, you can get a used M2/M3 for mid $300+$100 or so for a good mount. Beats the shit out of an EO any day.
Noobie question: What is RDS? (No stupid question unless not asked)
QuietShootr
07-13-09, 18:51
Well, to sum it up, I can't afford to buy a quality optic for my carbine setup. I'd like something in the future, but realistically, it would probably be next summer before I actually commit to one. I was thinking maybe some kind of eotech, but I don't know.
My question is: If I've got a good set of iron sights, do I really need an optic for me to perform any better?
I'd like to hear from guys on both sides of the issue, so any input is appreciated.
Yes. ANYONE, no matter how skilled, (if they're honestly putting maximum effort into both) will shoot a LOT faster for the same accuracy with an RDS.
Noobie question: What is RDS? (No stupid question unless not asked)
Red Dot Sight
SWATcop556
07-13-09, 19:04
Noobie question: What is RDS? (No stupid question unless not asked)
No worries. You don't know unless you ask. Like was stated earlier it is for Red Dot Sight.
We get in a bad habit of using a lot of acronyms around here and sometims forget that there are people very new to the AR and this site.
Welcome aboard.
I guess one important question to ask that no one brought up yet is how is the rifle going to be used? This should help dictate what kind of optic to get (or if it's even necessary to get one).
For quick shots, the choices mentioned above are superior.
If you want to be a cheap ass, avoid Chinese knockoffs. The lowest I would go is the Bushnell Holosight ("Lite" Eotech) made by L3 here in the states, but I don't even know if they're discontinued or not. I have one, but they're not as rugged as the Eotech 5XX series, but for casual shooting/competition, it's sufficient. That said, I wouldn't put that particular optic through hard hard use.
For a serious/work rifle, get the best options you can. You get what you pay for.
No worries. You don't know unless you ask. Like was stated earlier it is for Red Dot Sight.
We get in a bad habit of using a lot of acronyms around here and sometims forget that there are people very new to the AR and this site.
Welcome aboard.
Thanks SWATcop and quietshootr, nice to continue my education... a Texan (Naxet) living in exile in Kansas...
Back when I was a teenager my cousin and I would shoot mice in my dads shed( 15'x20') with airguns. It was full of junk and with the single light bulb in the center there was endless shadowy spaces.
It was fairly fast shooting as when the mouse would stick his head out in the light you only had a split second to shoot. We both were using open sights with equal results.
I talked my mom into getting me a cheap Bushnell 4X scope. There the results changed. Instead of waiting for the mice to come into the light I could see and shoot into the shadows. We ended up having to take turns so my cousin would get a chance to shoot.
I imagine it would be the same for a dimly lit house, the only difference is it wouldn't be mice you were worried about.
Bread is People
07-13-09, 21:53
Can anyone recommend a good light to go with a DD offset mount? I've been looking at surefire, but there are so many of them to choose from. I'm thinking an LED would be more what I'm looking for as I already have a regular light with a built in rail mount.
I have an AIMPOINT and like it very well.
Can anyone recommend a good light to go with a DD offset mount? I've been looking at surefire, but there are so many of them to choose from. I'm thinking an LED would be more what I'm looking for as I already have a regular light with a built in rail mount.
This is what I run in a Vltor mount.
Ask Grant about M4C discount. He's good people to deal with and since you're in Ohio it will be at you door in like a day or so.
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=G2L
Optics greatly increase the speed of getting on target(magnification or no magnification). I believe that you should learn your irons first and move up to an optic when you get the extra cash. Spend some time getting to know your rifle and your irons, but I suggest eventually adding an optic.
I can second this. I attended a carbine course in May and was the only guy running irons. During the drills the other guys were faster on the target and getting shots off before me. When I sped up my pace trying to keep up with the fire my groups opened up as expected. I just relaxed and slowed back down again and the shots came back in where they should have been. That was first hand proof for me that optics help get you on the target quicker. I'll get one sometime down the road for sure but I still want to get good and be good with the irons for the reasons stated already.
.......
SWATcop556
07-13-09, 23:46
Can anyone recommend a good light to go with a DD offset mount? I've been looking at surefire, but there are so many of them to choose from. I'm thinking an LED would be more what I'm looking for as I already have a regular light with a built in rail mount.
I'm running the Surefire 6P LED in Larue mounts on both of my entry rifles as well as my patrol rifle. It is just a little lacking on searching in open fields or huge warehouse-like structures but still sufficient. It is also not so over-powered that you blind yourself why clearing a residence. A good balance.
Someone might have a better choice for outside lights. I'd be interested in some other options as well, I just don't have the coin lying around to try the different Surefire models.
I sincerely wish my eyes still had the capacity to effectively use the irons, but sadly such has not been the case for the past few years now. The front sight is a lollypop that gets fuzzier nearly every time I take the gun to the range.
So yes, I use a red dot ~95% of the time. I lucked out a couple of years ago though, in finding a used Aimpoint Comp ML2 going for something like ~$180. The only problem with it is that in addition to lack of focus with the irons, I also have astigmatism that creates mulitple images with the red dot. They're all in foucs, but I'm not always sure which is the "real" dot. Sometimes it's two dots that look like a little hourglass or dumbell, or three like a little Micky Mouse head. Once or twice I've seen several looking like a bunch of grapes. They will even change as I watch, from my eye deforming under the stresss. Now as an official 50-Something, I guess it's not surprising having vision problems.
I'll still get in some practice with those fuzzy irons, as a matter of principle if nothing else, or from just getting annoyed by the multi-dot.
ETA -- for a light, I have a Surefire G2 on a Viking Tactics mount. Not the most rugged or hi-tech option, but serves my needs and very cost-effective.
don't buy a primary arms, the battery life sucks, the battery last 3 weeks tops even turned off, save for a C3
Beat Trash
07-14-09, 07:59
Can anyone recommend a good light to go with a DD offset mount? I've been looking at surefire, but there are so many of them to choose from. I'm thinking an LED would be more what I'm looking for as I already have a regular light with a built in rail mount.
I like the Surefire G2L. Enough light for my usage while inside, and I prefer the battery life of the LED light.
I'd try to find a used Comp M2, I recently bought one for $300...It isn't the latest and greatest, but its still an effective optic
IMHO the tritium irons for the AR are just a good way of parting money from someone who has to have the best wiz-bang shit on their gun. Are they completely worthless, no, but just damn near.
Here's a test I have people do that say they "need" the tritium on their rifles. Take them to the range when its low-light/ no-light (you can even do this in your house using dryfire techniques). Have them get at bad breath HD distances to 15 yards. Utilizing a good white light your are able to easily see the outline of your irons in the light as you focus on your front sight and target. Once the target is illuminated you can't even see the tritium anyways, same as on a handgun with a weapon mounted light.
Then there are people that say "What if I don't want to give away my position with light before I take a shot." I say if you are taking a shot where you have not properly identified your target as a threat by illumination, then you are a ****ing idiot.
Just my .02
www.vickerstactical.com/tactical-tips/tactical-use-of-white-light/
Ken H. has been teaching short flash for years , although I don't remember him calling it flashbulb back then.
I almost sold out and bought an Aimpoint. I had the Wilcox mount and everything....
That was a close one! :p
Jay Cunningham
08-30-09, 09:05
I almost sold out and bought an Aimpoint. I had the Wilcox mount and everything....
That was a close one! :p
You are un-Tactical!!
CarlosDJackal
08-30-09, 09:25
Well, to sum it up, I can't afford to buy a quality optic for my carbine setup. I'd like something in the future, but realistically, it would probably be next summer before I actually commit to one. I was thinking maybe some kind of eotech, but I don't know.
My question is: If I've got a good set of iron sights, do I really need an optic for me to perform any better?
I'd like to hear from guys on both sides of the issue, so any input is appreciated.
I was a hardcore iron sights person until I got the opportunity to shoot in a 3-gun low light match. The target was a black painted pepper popper at 50-yards which blended against the dark background.
Three magazines later, I realized the advantage of optics. Fast forward many years later and the advantages of optics, specifically RDS, was verified when I attended carbine classes that included night firing.
If you don't plan on using your firestick in lo light (ie: self-defense) then you may not need an optic. Otherwise, I highly recommend looking into it. JM2CW.
I sincerely wish my eyes still had the capacity to effectively use the irons, but sadly such has not been the case for the past few years now. The front sight is a lollypop that gets fuzzier nearly every time I take the gun to the range.
So yes, I use a red dot ~95% of the time. I lucked out a couple of years ago though, in finding a used Aimpoint Comp ML2 going for something like ~$180. The only problem with it is that in addition to lack of focus with the irons, I also have astigmatism that creates mulitple images with the red dot. They're all in foucs, but I'm not always sure which is the "real" dot. Sometimes it's two dots that look like a little hourglass or dumbell, or three like a little Micky Mouse head. Once or twice I've seen several looking like a bunch of grapes. They will even change as I watch, from my eye deforming under the stresss. Now as an official 50-Something, I guess it's not surprising having vision problems.
I'll still get in some practice with those fuzzy irons, as a matter of principle if nothing else, or from just getting annoyed by the multi-dot.
ETA -- for a light, I have a Surefire G2 on a Viking Tactics mount. Not the most rugged or hi-tech option, but serves my needs and very cost-effective.
blackscot.........We have the same problem. I'm soon to be 51 yo and past 25-30 yds iron sights are just too fuzzy for me. Plus, I wear glasses. Specifically bi-focals and the lease bit of head / sight adustment to get on target make things worse.
Tell me what you guys think given my situation.
My weapon is a S & W MP15T. Just got it and it has Troy irons on it. They are great sights, I just can't see well.
I live in the country, have some acreage, and have a place to shoot right outside my backdoor. Up to 500 yds if I want. Don't, but can if the notion stikes me or if I got a target (see below). I'll be shooting paper 75-80% of the time from 25 to 200 yds. Just my son and I practicing and having fun.
Home defense is also a consideration. Close quarters / low light. Although I do have other options for this at hand.
My mostly quiet little piece of ground has been invaded by yotes and feral hogs. The yotes kill my wild turkey poults and the hogs are going to destroy my river bottom pasture. I plan on raining hell down on both of them with this MP15 whenever I get the chance. Short or long range distance. Doesn't matter........they are gonna die or at least get shot at. :D
Where I live there are few places where I can go, or have found, (shops) to actually put my hands on any of these optics (EOTech, Aimpoint, Trijicon, etc.) to see what may or may not suit me. The money for me is important, but secondary. I'm like anyone else, I don't want to spend $1,000 dollars on something only to find that I don't like it or it doesn't suit my purpose. I want, and am convinced that I need a quality optic because of my eyesight.
I lurked on this site for a while now prior to buying my rifle and it is obvious that there are alot of expereinced AR folks here. I have learned alot.
I would really like your opinions.
By the way, I do need a dictionary for some of these BUIS, RDS, FBI, CIA abbreviations ya'll use. :D
Scoby
If you have an astigmatism that makes a red dot unworkable, take a hard look at the 1.5x Trijicon Compact ACOG's. They work very well, are lightweight, and damn near bombproof.
I have a TA44-R4 red tritium crosshair reticle and it works very well.
You can typically find some for sale second hand and not have to spring for retail on them.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Colt%20LE%20M4%20MiniACOG/MiniACOGandBones002.jpg
I have a jar with "Aimpoint" written on it.I drop money in it every pay day ,sometimes its just change but it adds up.think of it this way the first thing the Military does in BRM is train you on the Irons.then later comes the RDS.
A company just graduated this weekend from OSUT at Benning, and never once used their iron sights through BRM or ARM.
It was all aimpoint, all the time.
Can't say I agree with it, but it appears times are changing, even in the Army.
If you have an astigmatism that makes a red dot unworkable, take a hard look at the 1.5x Trijicon Compact ACOG's. They work very well, are lightweight, and damn near bombproof.
I agree. I ran the red triangle version for quite a while, first on a 16" and later on an SBR and was quite happy with it overall. There are some washout issues in bright sun (which only wind up affecting precision shooting) and some "where the hell did my dot go" situations in the dark, but otherwise it was a very good solution for me when I was shooting with an uncorrected astigmatism.
I agree. I ran the red triangle version for quite a while, first on a 16" and later on an SBR and was quite happy with it overall. There are some washout issues in bright sun (which only wind up affecting precision shooting) and some "where the hell did my dot go" situations in the dark, but otherwise it was a very good solution for me when I was shooting with an uncorrected astigmatism.
The Tripower also works that way, and is a true 1x.
The Tripower also works that way, and is a true 1x.
I was never remotely impressed with the Tripower once I saw one in person. I think it was tri-crap since it seemed bad at everything it tried to do.
I found it practically impossible to shoot using iron sights with the sun just over the horizon at my 12 o'clock.
No issues with the EOTech.
YMMV.
http://www.545ar.com/sun.jpg
yeah depending on where the sun is it can be near impossible to use iron sights. as far as NEEDING an optic, i mean it depends on how good of a shooter you are. personally, i think its worth it to learn how to use the iron sights well out to 100 yards or so, become proficient with that before spending a ton of money and the next greatest optic out there. theyll improve your shooting most likely, but you want to try to max your potential without it. if you're already to that point, by all means, go optics
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