View Full Version : Why I Bought It
On July 1st, bkboooo posted a thread titled "Why'd You Buy It?". He said: I'm interested to hear short stories of why people chose to buy lesser-quality weapons- bush, DPMS, oly, RRA, etc..
That thread is now 16 pages and more than 300 posts long. I've been lurking on M4C for several weeks now, and just joined the forum largely because of that thread. So, please give me some slack; this is my first (and perhaps last!) post.
I only recently learned that it was possible to own a new AR15 in California. I have several handguns, a shotgun, and a Mini-14 SS ranch rifle. I intend to sell the Mini-14 when I have my AR in hand. I've purchased a California-legal off-list lower (OLL) and have ordered a CAR A4 rifle kit (AR4002 - 16" chrome-lined Wilson R-4 barrel, with RRA two-stage trigger kit) from Rock River Arms. I laid out $222 (including FFL, DROS, and CA tax) for the lower, and will pay $695 plus shipping for the RRA carbine kit. So, I'm in for about $950.
It looks like a five or six month wait for the RRA kit...I'm not in a big hurry, but...
I see my current options as staying the course for the RRA kit, or cancelling that order and buying a Tier 1 rifle piece-by-piece, at undoubtedly a higher outlay. I should add that I do want the two-stage trigger, and don't want to lose the OLL investment. What do I want the AR for? Range plinking (90% indoor at 25 yards), home defense, SHTF, and because I want an AR.
Would appreciate your comments, advice, and specific recommendations...
Vista
On July 1st, bkboooo posted a thread titled "Why'd You Buy It?". He said: I'm interested to hear short stories of why people chose to buy lesser-quality weapons- bush, DPMS, oly, RRA, etc..
That thread is now 16 pages and more than 300 posts long. I've been lurking on M4C for several weeks now, and just joined the forum largely because of that thread. So, please give me some slack; this is my first (and perhaps last!) post.
I only recently learned that it was possible to own a new AR15 in California. I have several handguns, a shotgun, and a Mini-14 SS ranch rifle. I intend to sell the Mini-14 when I have my AR in hand. I've purchased a California-legal off-list lower (OLL) and have ordered a CAR A4 rifle kit (AR4002 - 16" chrome-lined Wilson R-4 barrel, with RRA two-stage trigger kit) from Rock River Arms. I laid out $222 (including FFL, DROS, and CA tax) for the lower, and will pay $695 plus shipping for the RRA carbine kit. So, I'm in for about $950.
It looks like a five or six month wait for the RRA kit...I'm not in a big hurry, but...
I see my current options as staying the course for the RRA kit, or cancelling that order and buying a Tier 1 rifle piece-by-piece, at undoubtedly a higher outlay. I should add that I do want the two-stage trigger, and don't want to lose the OLL investment. What do I want the AR for? Range plinking (90% indoor at 25 yards), home defense, SHTF, and because I want an AR.
Would appreciate your comments, advice, and specific recommendations...
Vista
I tier one set up should not really cost you more. I built an AR using an BCM upper and it ran me the same as you.
If you have the lower, just get on Bravo Company USA's e-mail list for when there upper come in.
BCM barreled upper = $475 (not currently in stock, but it won't be 6 months)
BCM, G&R or DD BCG = $160ish (G&R tactical has DD BCG for $152 in stock now)
Charging handle = $25
Handguards = $25
That's $685 plus shipping for a tier one upper and you'll be able to have it in you hands sooner than 6 months, probably MUCH sooner.
Now I'm not saying RRA is total crap, just that BCM is a notch up, about the same cost and will be in you hands sooner.
seem like a win... win... win all around.
Good luck.
Parabellum9x19mm
07-13-09, 22:56
first off, congrats on getting your first AR in enemy territory.
i am of the mind that AR lowers are all the same, if they are forged and are in-spec. i bought a couple RRA stripped lowers and they are fine.
the quality of LPKs (the lower parts kits that go into the lower receiver) can vary quite a bit from manufacturer to manufacturer...but the couple of RRA kits i've installed were better than i expected.
i've heard some mixed things about the RRA 2-stage. on one hand, i've heard quite a few complaints about doubling with the RRA trigger. on the other hand, i've heard many people swear by the White Oak tuned RRA 2-stage.
personally, i don't have any experience with that trigger....the only 2-stage i have is a Geiselle, so i don't have a verdict on the RRA one....just passing on what i've heard. but going on reputation alone, i would probably buy a LMT 2-stage over the RRA model.
i'm not a big fan of 2-stage triggers in general. i don't think they belong on fighting rifles. however, since your AR will be Cali-legal and will have a bullet button installed, i doubt it will serve the role of a fighting rifle. since you'll probably just be using it as a range toy, i guess it doesn't matter so much.
as far as the upper...yeah, i would cancel that order. don't feel like you're locked in or like you owe them your business, just because you placed an order with them.
even before the election, RRA had quite long lead times on rifles. people would wait months for a special ordered RRA, when they could just buy a Colt, Sabre or LMT off the shelf for not too much more.
granted, things are a little different now, since everything is a lot harder to come by and a bit more expensive....but yeah, i would still cancel the order for the upper.
just get your RRA lower and then keep your eyes peeled for a deal on a quality upper like a BCM, Sabre, Noveske, LMT, etc...or get an upper custom built by Grant or Denny just the way you want it.
just my $0.02. hope it was some help.
I agree. I put together a BCM with Daniel Defense BCG for barely more than that, including a BUIS, in less than one month from start to finish.
90% of your shooting will be done at 25 yards and want a two-stage trigger? :confused: Are you that bad of a marksman? Even for the shots that will be at ranges of 300m or so, a single stage should be all that is needed. And two-stage triggers are typically not recommended for home defense SHTF guns. I would save that money or put it into buying BCM or DD instead of RRA. Regardless of what you end up building, kudos for getting around Cali's bullshit.
Parabellum9x19mm
07-13-09, 23:28
90% of your shooting will be done at 25 yards and want a two-stage trigger? :confused: Are you that bad of a marksman? Even for the shots that will be at ranges of 300m or so, a single stage should be all that is needed. And two-stage triggers are typically not recommended for home defense SHTF guns. I would save that money or put it into buying BCM or DD instead of RRA. Regardless of what you end up building, kudos for getting around Cali's bullshit.
True that.
i missed the part about 90% of his shooting being at 25 yards and under.
once you get your AR, you should really change your shooting habits and find a new blasting locale.
the only time i've ever shot my ARs indoors is when i was zeroing my sights. i don't much like shooting indoors, period....but with ARs and similar rifles it just really not fun at all.
plus with the benches they have in front of each lane, depending how its set up, it makes it hard to shoot from the kneeling position. and people look at you like you're insane if you go prone in an indoor range. "why's dat foo lyin` on the flo`? :confused:"
and that brings me to the crowd who are drawn to indoor ranges. :rolleyes: last time i was at an indoor range, zeroing my optic on an AR15, i overheard the guy on the lane next to me, say to his buddy "Yo, he gots an Aye-Kay".... his friend turned around to look at my "Aye-Kay" and in doing so swept me with his muzzle of his range-rental Cx4 Storm :mad:
to get back on topic, the AR is capable of so much more than indoor plinking. if you just wanna plink indoors @ 25 - a pistol or .22 rifle would probably be better suited to the task. when you do get your AR, do yourself a favor and take it out to a place where you can use your weapon to its full extent.
you'll be a better shooter for it and you'll get much more enjoyment out of your purchase.
SWATcop556
07-13-09, 23:54
BCM all the way. For little to no more money than if you went the RRA route you have a kick-ass rifle that will do everything you need it to.
BCM is quickly replacing a lot of kit that I had in the safe.
Going with lesser quality parts makes even less sense in CA where you may literally only ever own one AR. If you're just going to have one, it makes sense to get the best quality possible (or, in this market, available).
I'd second what everyone else said and get on the notification list for the Bravo Company 16" midlength upper (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-16-Mid-Length-Upper-Receiver-Group-p/bcm-urg-mid-16.htm). I'd also get on the list and add to that the Bravo Company bolt/carrier group (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-Bolt-Carrier-Group-MPI-Auto-M16-p/bcm%20bolt%20carrier%20group%20auto%20mp.htm).
I'm not sure what kind of order you placed with Rock River, but truthfully their lower receiver internal parts are pretty good, if you ditch the two-stage. Another quality supplier of lower internal parts is CMT/Stag (http://www.stagarms.com/product_info.php?cPath=18_31&products_id=231). You'll still need to add a stock and I'd suggest replacing the pistol grip with a Magpul MOE or an A1 grip, and add a gapper (http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=25084/Product/AR_15_GAPPER).
I second the idea of a BCM mid-length.
I have both the BCM 16" carbine length and the mid-length. The mid-length has the fallowing advantages:
1. Longer sight radius.
2. Softer shooting with smoother and less felt recoil.
3. Less heat in the chamber
4. Less violent action for less wear and longer parts life.
all that for no additional cost over a standard carbine gas system.
Note: Saber Defense also make Mid-length uppers, though not always easy to locate one.
Ridge_Runner_5
07-14-09, 14:41
My first build ran me ~$850. Since then, the only parts still on it from that build is the barrelled upper and BCG :)
Thanks for your inputs! I should clarify my original post by adding that I knew little or nothing about Tier 1 vs.Tier 2 (and Tier 3) ARs until AFTER I got my lower and ordered the RRA carbine kit. I have since been reading up on calguns.net and arfcom. I followed links from arfcom to M4Carbine a few weeks ago, and am now hooked.
In regard to my 25 yard indoor range time, that's what's reasonably available to me in North San Diego County. 99% of my shooting is pistols (Glocks, Kahr, P22) and revolvers (S&W) - I spend a lot of time in the desert during the cool season, and intend to join the Palm Springs Gun Club for outdoor work.
I'm leaning heavily toward the BCM option - I figure that if I buy everything I need from them, it would run about $830 (plus shipping, and without the RRA two-stage trigger). Couple more questions: What are (if any) the downsides of a mid-length 16" upper vs. the 16" carbine? Do you heed an H buffer for the mid-length? Is the Stag lower parts kit better than the DPMS parts kit that BCM carries?
Thanks again,
Vista
Couple more questions: What are (if any) the downsides of a mid-length 16" upper vs. the 16" carbine? Do you heed an H buffer for the mid-length? Is the Stag lower parts kit better than the DPMS parts kit that BCM carries?
Thanks again,
Vista
A mid-length upper will require mid-length handguards, and there is no notch for a M203 launcher (not that really matter, as most of us have no use for one). The mid-length might be a tiny bit heavier, aside from that There really isn't a downside.
Most recommend a standard buffer for a mid-length system, as it's less violent. You could use an H buffer, but there is a chance it may not cycle 1000% when dirty or using lower pressure (cheaper) ammo.
Stag is generally considered a better LPK with a better trigger than DPMS.
Another update! Taking ALL your advice, I put in an email bid for the BCM 16" mid-length upper and a BCM BCG. Amazingly enough, the Bolt Carrier Group came into stock today, and is now on its way to me. Now, I've got to wait for the upper, and track down the other pieces I need. Still would appreciate your advice and recommendations...particularly in regard to handguards, stocks, and lower parts kits.
Vista
I have RRA mid-length handguards on my BCM Middy. You could go with a rail, but honestly it just adds weight, and not needed by most of us. Add some Ergo polymer rails to your standard handguard if you need attachment point for for light, Vertical grips and sling mounts.
RRA mid-length handguards:
http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=306
AS for you LPK, Stag or RRA are good and mostly available now. I have several DPMS LPKs on rifles only because a few months back that all that could be found, and even then it took some luck.
D&D Ranch has 9 in stock at the moment:
http://www.ddsranch.com/cart/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=629
What do you already have or have ordered? If you can group them from the same place that has what your looking for in stock you will save on shipping. If you need a charging handle try to add it to the BCM BCG order to same some on shipping. Same goes for you stock.
Anyway, it late and I have to get to bed!
Another update! Taking ALL your advice, I put in an email bid for the BCM 16" mid-length upper and a BCM BCG. Amazingly enough, the Bolt Carrier Group came into stock today, and is now on its way to me. Now, I've got to wait for the upper, and track down the other pieces I need. Still would appreciate your advice and recommendations...particularly in regard to handguards, stocks, and lower parts kits.
Vista
I am very pleased with my BCM M4 stock kit.
I believe that only two companies currently manufacture mid length handguards, and both seem to be well made. In short, just buy the first ones you see for $30 or under. I got mine from Brownells.
SWATcop556
07-16-09, 02:31
I strongly recommend the BCM mid-length. I didn't know what I was missing until I got my hands on my first middie. If the barrel length is over 14.5 I will take a middie anyday. I still like the carbine for some applications.
For furniture I really look no further than Magpul. The MOE furniture is a great option if you are looking to save a few bucks, although unfortunately there are no MOE handguards for the middie. I have used RRA and Cav Arms and prefer the none-tapered Cav Arms. You can find them for sale here and there on the net.
My latest build consisted of a Noveske lower with Magpul UBR stock, MIAD grip, BCM Mid-length upper and BCM BCG. I needed rails on this build and went with Larue 9.0 and Larue BUIS. Added a FUG and Surefire 6P LED and a Vickers sling and I was done.
I have used many STAG/ CMT LPK's in my builds and I have no complaints. I don't like the DPMS kits as I have seen problems in the past. RRA are ok but I see no reason to have a two stage trigger in a fighting rifle. An SPR sure, but not a fighting rifle.
Yet Another Update!
RojasTKD asked what I have or have ordered in regard to my AR build.
I have a stripped CA-legal OLL (LRB Arms), three C-Products ten-round mags (the California Legislature has promised that any zombie attacks will come from groups of less than ten), a Bullet Button (this converts a mag from being detachable to detachable only with use of a tool), a Magpul MBUS, and about 1300 rounds of 556/223 ammo (I also have a Mini-14 SS Ranch Rifle, so all is not lost).
I have canceled my RRA A4 Carbine Kit order, but I have not heard back from them.
I have a request for notification of availability of a BCM mid-length upper, which I will buy the instant it's available. I also intend to get the BCM charging handle, the RRA slightly tapered mid-length handguards, mil-spec buffer tube assembly, and probably the Ergo grip, whenever all or most of these items come into stock from BCM. I'm also looking at the Magpul MOE stock, though I've seen a few threads that say a mid-length is "front-heavy" with an MOE stock. I need a lower parts kit and am searching the web for an in-stock RRA or CMT/Stag LPK. I will eventually get an optic, and am leaning towards an EoTech, despite the many arguments for an Aimpoint.
I'm heading down to the Del Mar gun show tomorrow to see what's available there, but I suspect most of my buys will be via the internet.
As always, I would appreciate your thoughts and recommendations...
Vista
theres stag/cmt lower parts kits all over gun broker for less than $70
......... I'm not sure what kind of order you placed with Rock River, but truthfully their lower receiver internal parts are pretty good, if you ditch the two-stage. Another quality supplier of lower internal parts is CMT/Stag (http://www.stagarms.com/product_info.php?cPath=18_31&products_id=231). You'll still need to add a stock and I'd suggest replacing the pistol grip with a Magpul MOE or an A1 grip, and add a gapper (http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=25084/Product/AR_15_GAPPER).
ROB - I've heard of the "gap" but still am not sure what people are talking about? Can someone post a pic of this "gap" and where that "gapper" installs on the rifle? I just can't visualize it. Thanks.
OP - I'll give my experience on this also, as I was someone who's shot / hunted / owned guns my whole life - going with Papaw, Dad, Uncles as a kid for as long as I can remember, yet still looked at AR's as something no one really needed or had use for but had every right in the world to own of course. I was doing some 10-22 and got routed over to AR15 website. While in the 10-22 section I thought I'd read a little about AR's and see what all the fuss was about these guns. The more I read the more I realized these are VERY cool rifles. And the more I decided I wanted one.
I read up on AR's over on TOS and was just overwhelemed by all the lingo and different brands, components, building this and building that. At this time the market was starting to get crazy on everything AR. I went to a local gun shop and they had a wall full of ARs. Mostly DoubleStars with a few other brands strung in as well. I came home and searched on TOS about DoubleStar and they seemed to get great reviews. I went back and bought a DoubleStar DS-4 for $999 (plus tax)
After some time I found this site and was bummed to learn that I could have bought or built a higher quality rifle that IS mil-spec for the same money or just a tad more. I ordered some lowers from Essential Arms $105 (at that time the lower rush was on and everyone had long lead times on them). I then got DoubleStar LPK's $70, RRA BCG's $140 and lucked out and got BCM mid-length uppers $485, BCM M4 stock kits $83 and caught handguards on sale from Cav-Arms for $10ea. At this point I had $893 (plus whatever shipping the orders cost me) in a very nice rifle that was closer to true mil-spec than my DoubleStar.
Just recently I've sold and replaced the RRA BCG's with BCM BCG's $159 and have also sold off the EA lowers and BCM stocks and replaced them with BCM Complete Lowers $350 now that they've come available. Even with that, I've $1,004 in a complete BCM rifle that follows the TDP right up there with Colt and LMT. True, my "mistakes", if you want to call them that (it's not a mistake if you learn, right LOL) have cost me some money in multiple shipping charges and loosing a little money selling items for less than I paid for them. The point is, that one of my BCM rifles cost me a whole $5 more than my original DoubleStar did. I haven't figured it up, but if you compare the tax I paid on the DoubleStar and the shipping I paid on the BCM components it's still prob about the same money, give or take a few bucks.
I now have 3 identical BCM mid-length rifles with consecutive serial #'s (HUGE THANKS TO GRANT FOR THAT) for me and my 2 boys. The 2 for my boys will be safe'd until they get grown (about 18yrs from now) and I had originally planned to keep my BCM safe'd along with theirs and just shoot the DoulbeStar's guts out. However, lately I've been thinking of maybe selling the DoubleStar and wringing the ever living life out of my BCM - cause that's what it was made for and I know it will take it. :D
...............
Update.
Just got an email from BCM saying the 16" mid-length upper is in stock. That's now on the way, along with the BCM charging handle. I've got an Ergo grip and Magpul CTR stock on order from Denny's Guns (no ETA yet) and am still looking for the RRA mid-length black handguards. Assuming all this stuff comes in the near future, I should have an operational AR. Thanks to all for steering me away from the Tier 2/3 ARs to a Tier 1, and from a carbine to the middie. All my research indicates that the mid-length is the way to go, at least for me.
Vista
Update.
Just got an email from BCM saying the 16" mid-length upper is in stock. That's now on the way, along with the BCM charging handle. I've got an Ergo grip and Magpul CTR stock on order from Denny's Guns (no ETA yet) and am still looking for the RRA mid-length black handguards. Assuming all this stuff comes in the near future, I should have an operational AR. Thanks to all for steering me away from the Tier 2/3 ARs to a Tier 1, and from a carbine to the middie. All my research indicates that the mid-length is the way to go, at least for me.
Vista
http://www.ghostrecon.net/forums/style_emoticons/default/cheers.gif
Update.
Just got an email from BCM saying the 16" mid-length upper is in stock. That's now on the way, along with the BCM charging handle. I've got an Ergo grip and Magpul CTR stock on order from Denny's Guns (no ETA yet) and am still looking for the RRA mid-length black handguards. Assuming all this stuff comes in the near future, I should have an operational AR. Thanks to all for steering me away from the Tier 2/3 ARs to a Tier 1, and from a carbine to the middie. All my research indicates that the mid-length is the way to go, at least for me.
Vista
Nicely done. It's about time someone asked for advice before buying! :D
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