Mob / Multiple Threat Tactics & Strategies [Archive]

senorlinc

07-17-09, 22:58

John_Wayne777

07-17-09, 23:14

what are some thoughts on how to be best prepared and to deal with a situation where i get "bum rushed" ie jumped by multiple attackers simultaneously.

My 2 cents:

Even though it's obvious and you already mentioned it, the first step is situational awareness. Take note when a group of people starts to surround you. Don't allow yourself to get cornered. The minute you feel uncomfortable, beat feet. That little "I don't like this" instinct is an evolutionary carryover/God's little way of telling you something (depending on your philosophical persuasion) and you should listen to it. People who fail to listen to it often find themselves in trouble.

As for what to do when the attack is underway...well....if you kill 2 or 3 the rest of the mob will most likely scatter like the vermin that they are. The problem now is that you potentially have X number of hostile witnesses who will tell the cops that they were having a nice game of stickball when this crazy white dude just started shooting at them.

...that they were intending on ramming the stick up your rectum and making you into a puppet will somehow escape their recollection.

Thomas M-4

07-17-09, 23:17

How does one address a situation when they are confronted by a large group of assailants simultaneously? I realise that avoiding such situations and awareness/vigilance are the best methods however, lets say that is not practical to consistently avoid an area that is high risk .

what i mean is that my neighborhood has been a subject of 3 "flash mob" incidents in the past 7 weeks
an example of whats going on is found here...
http://cbs3.com/topstories/Teens.Destrucitve.Rampage.2.1025684.html

what are some thoughts on how to be best prepared and to deal with a situation where i get "bum rushed" ie jumped by multiple attackers simultaneously.

Man what is it with Philly? If it was me and I had to pull the gun out I would aim it at the biggest meanest MotherF#cker in the group If I had to use deadly force start with the most immediate danger who ever you fear the most. Most mobs lose there back bone once the instigator or 2 are are bleeding out on the ground. Just my 2 bits;)

+ What ever John Wayne says he alway has good advice.

geminidglocker

07-17-09, 23:49

BETA-C Mag. Tracers help disperse mobs readily as well. It's one thing for them to hear you shooting, but when they can see the tracers doing through-and throughs, they tend to scatter at amazing velocity. My crowd control tactic nowadays is that I live out in the sticks.

ColdDeadHands

07-28-09, 23:32

My crowd control tactic nowadays is that I live out in the sticks.
+1:cool:

VooDoo6Actual

07-29-09, 08:01

Don't project VICTIM and have the correct weapon(s) at yuor immediate disposal to deal w/ threat and furtive movements.

Have a PLAN B as well.....

Jay Cunningham

07-29-09, 08:20

This is a good question because it it a scenario that the average everyday dude could be faced with.

Awareness is number one, of course. Condition Yellow, as they say. Avoidance is the natural next step, but as you said sometimes we cannot avoid the situation. Retreat is an option, but we must be able to *safely retreat* i.e. the act of attempting to retreat does not in fact make us more vulnerable.

Keep eyes open for exit paths and for cover - at least something to put between you and some of these people.

A group of angry people is very dangerous - my personal threshold for entering Condition Orange and subsequently Condition Red would be lower than dealing with one individual. My personal opinion is that your best chance of getting out of a situation like that is your commitment to the maximum amount of violence in the smallest time frame.

A crowd whipped up into a frenzy - for whatever reason - can quickly have their enthusiasm deflated when their two most vocal and aggressive suddenly receive multiple gunshot wounds. A mob of people is no time to go wobbly - you could easily end up with life-threatening injuries if you don't resolve yourself up front to overwhelming violence.

Just my $.02.

Gutshot John

07-29-09, 10:03

Just watch the Outlaw Josey Wales. :)

Seriously this is an excellent question, I had a similar situation in EMS about 10 years ago. We beat feet until PD arrived as mobs are notoriously hard to anticipate.

Things can go South quickly and your only advantage is to act first, this however can have legal ramifications unless you're a cop and read the riot act.

One thing to consider is that your flanks and rear are as important as the front. Multiple persons can get behind you quickly and without you knowing. Keep your head on a swivel.

Zhurdan

07-29-09, 10:18

In the few times I've been around a small mob of arseholes (not directly involved in most, but watching from a ways off), it was pretty easy to pick out the so called "leader" of the mob. If it came down to it, I'd say take him out first. Often times, taking the loud mouth out of the equation will go a long way to stopping further escalation. The incidents I've seen and been involved in didn't involve firearms, but a loud mouth is a loud mouth. Stop that guy first and people quickly lose interest.

Zhur

PS. Colorado State University football fans take their team just a little bit to seriously sometimes.:D

PPS. As an aside, I think violence and speed of action would have a lot to do with it, as Katar said. "Are you the one that killed our friend?" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lq3zjTmVLbM&feature=PlayList&p=7E07F058682D768A&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=8)

The_War_Wagon

07-29-09, 10:35

YOUR neighborhood sounds like what's moving closer to MY neighborhood, over here in PA's other 'blue anchor.' :rolleyes:

Much as I'd LOVE to get back to the countryside, I don't foresee it happening anytime soon (not by my OWN choosing anyways - apocalypses have a way of RE-locating people, regardless... :eek:). Therefore, I'd work on turning your home into a castle. Layer your defenses, and make it as impregnable as possible.

If you're in an apartment, well... it's been good knowin' ya'. :(

Gutshot John

07-29-09, 10:42

One more reason to give Philly to NJ. Overnight PA would turn Red.

I f$*(king hate that town.

30 cal slut

07-29-09, 11:35

My personal opinion is that your best chance of getting out of a situation like that is your commitment to the maximum amount of violence in the smallest time frame.

;)

***Start Practicing ...Cough*** (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVGPEgRZwIw)

Buck

07-29-09, 11:41

Nuke them from space... It's the only way to be sure....

ToddG

07-29-09, 11:53

As with most "what if" internet discussions, the devil is in the details.

Are the mobs armed or unarmed?
Are they targeting you specifically or just "others" in general?
Why, exactly, is it "not practical to consistently avoid an area that is high risk?"

It's all well and good to say you'd blast the leader and hope the rest scatter, but the danger there is that you will blast the leader and the rest will then be witnesses to you murdering their buddy (the word of everyone in the mob versus just you).

Get on the cell phone with 911 as early in the confrontation (or pre-confrontation) as possible. Do not try to sound brave/tough to the 911 operator. If you are scared you're about to get rushed by a violent mob, it is appropriate and acceptable to sound scared shitless as long as you don't sound lack your judgment is questionable.

Remain non-threatening without acting like a victim until you can no longer remain non-threatening. Then skip the 'threatening' phase and take immediate, decisive action. Call 911 immediately after the incident (if they're not on the line already) to report exactly what happened and TELL THEM TO SEND HELP. This will help make it clear you're the one on the side of law & order.

But really, I'd seriously assess just what makes it necessary for you to go through that area alone during "mob" times. There is no simple 100% solution ... you're going into a danger place alone. Bad things may happen. Such is life.

DarrinD

07-29-09, 17:37

As with most "what if" internet discussions, the devil is in the details.

Call 911 immediately after the incident (if they're not on the line already) to report exactly what happened.

Remember that you have the right to remain silent. Therefore, I suggest that you do not tell the 911 operator exactly what happened. Even LEO's can incorrectly describe a shooting incident in an AAR immediately after it takes place. Telling the operator to send an ambulance immediately and simply hanging up might be a better practice to think about. I agree with everything else Todd said so I won't be redundant as to those points.

senorlinc

07-29-09, 17:57

As with most "what if" internet discussions, the devil is in the details.

Are the mobs armed or unarmed?
Are they targeting you specifically or just "others" in general?
Why, exactly, is it "not practical to consistently avoid an area that is high risk?"

i live 2 blocks south of a major "party" strip (imagine a bourbon street type area though the denizens are much more urban-ie drunk/high disrespectful teens and young adults with little consideration for anything). the strip runs about 12 blocks east and west and a block or 2 north and south (and the drunks stumble around in an area a bit larger than that to park, pee on the street, vandalise and grafitti). it would be possible to avoid much of the strip to the north (my usual route) however i must biscet the strip at some point.

my fear is not so much an all out riot. i envision a real scenario where a group of 4-12 of these folks either attack at very close range (perhaps while walking by them or while waiting in the shadows for a target to appear). i think both are realistic possibilities where i am. while i can try to do as much as i can to be prepared and aware of my situation as well as minimising my travel time in a "threat" area, i am unsure how i would handle a "flash" group attack that could originate from the shadows/alley or simply walking by a group and getting dropped by a sucker punch.

yes i realise that if it is that big of a concern to me, perhaps it is time to move. i will say that other than this strip, my neighborhood is beautiful and the location is very convenient and offers alot

DarrinD

07-29-09, 18:29

i am unsure how i would handle a "flash" group attack that could originate from the shadows/alley or simply walking by a group and getting dropped by a sucker punch.

I am also unsure how I would handle a "flash" group attack from multiple BG's, despite taking some outstanding tactical training through the years. The situation, if it occurs, would likely be so dynamic and fast paced that you can not plan for every contingency before it occurs - at least not on paper. I would suggest that in additional to some professional pistol training that you spend some time in a high quality simulator so that you can test your shoot-don't shoot skills. Such training will prepare you better than thinking about it and getting boring responses like the one I am now writing. Escape and Evade if possible, unholster if you reasonably believe you are about to be killed or seriously injured (AZ law).

ZDL

07-29-09, 21:23

***********

Zhurdan

07-29-09, 21:51

The flip side to that is you are now going to have armed LEOs headed your direction without any details. This could prove bad. Surviving now v. surviving later needs to weighed sure, but I would attempt to be as detailed as possible about what is going on.

I've written out what my wife is to say if she needed to call 911 because of me or her.

"My husband (name) is deputy (id #) for (agency). He just ________ and needs backup and/or medical sent to _____________. He is a white male, 6'1", wearing _____________ located _____________ (location at location ie: NW corner of building etc). I will stay on the line until I can't."

The description of the good guy holding the gun is key.

It's a plan at least. You can get with a dispatcher and/or leo and ask them what they would like to know in a situation like that then write your own.

Other than that. It's been covered. Situational awareness etc. I'll just reiterate the importance of swiftness and violence of motion. If you are going to make a move, not matter what it is, from stabbing someone with you ink pen to running away, to drawing and shooting, do it with purpose and finality. End the issue, don't exacerbate it.

SPOT ON! The incident I was involved in, I told my brother to get on the huge cell phone (yeah, I was a little behind the times) and call the police, to tell them what I was wearing and that I'm a good guy with a gun. I'd practiced that over and over in my head. Glad I did. They still put me on the pavement (as they should have) and hooked me and the bad guy up. Speaking to the authorities is more about measuring what you say. Practice it if you feel you'll lose it under pressure.

senorlinc

07-29-09, 21:54

I appreciate all the replies guys though i feel like we are straying a bit off track.

I am neither a lawyer nor ninja, nor will i ever be. I have taken a couple CCW classes to learn the legality of using deadly force as well as the proper deployment of a concealed handgun. While the legal and moral implications of using deadly force weigh in my mind every time i walk out the door with my pistol, i dont think they will be the first things to come to mind once a situation such as the one i have described becomes violent. i would think that the type of confrontation that i am trying to describe would go from green to red in a few seconds or less.

I will never be superman or some commando nor do i want to be. while i think that part of the skills needed for this type of encounter can be trained for so that reaction becomes kinestetic , there remains a part that i feel cant be learned-a type of instinctual 6th sense.
i can attempt to use the smarts i have to stay prepared, remain vigilant and minimise any possibility of this type of situation happening. i can continue to train to make my reactions automatic. i would like to strive to be perfect however i realise that this is an impossibility for me.

i started this thread to look for tips on how to negotiate a situation that is possible for me to encounter. i would rather be prepared and never need it than face the consequences. obviously, i would prefer to avoid it altogether. i'm neither looking for a fight nor do i need the invariable headaches (legal, monetary and moral) that would be involved in the aftermath. i can train all i want but i would never know what my instinctual reaction would be unless challenged in real life.

wow, after all that it would seem that the real answer to my question is how to get my mind and body ready

John_Wayne777

07-29-09, 21:56

Good situational awareness is worth more than a belt-fed machinegun. ;)

senorlinc

07-29-09, 22:06

Good situational awareness is worth more than a belt-fed machinegun. ;)

agreed. so i guess the focus now is how to best accomplish this

DarrinD

07-29-09, 22:15

agreed. so i guess the focus now is how to best accomplish this

I'll pass on a couple of unoriginal games you can play in public to train your mind to more situationally aware:

1. Imagine that you are protecting the President when you are out and about. You will probably look at and notice more things than usual.

2. Count all of the people in public within, say, 100 feet of you. Keep the count running and don't count the same person twice.

3. Log some time on a simulator. I was recently on a 7 screen, 290 degree virtual simulator. It's not the real thing nor a substitute for personal live fire training, but it really opened my eyes and elevated my pulse.

4. Try spending some time with a Simunitions instructor.

BLACK LION

07-30-09, 13:51

I often find myself in these situations especially in high crime urban areas...

I wont get into the whole situational awareness and 360 degree perimeter...

Lets get right to the meat...

Do you carry any tools??? Gun, knife, torch, blunt object, taser etc... ??? Do you carry a combination of these things???

If you do great...
If not...you should. Not becuase its a replacement for hand to hand skill but as a labor saving device.

A group threat should be considered life threatening at all times... Most often there isnt much negotiating with a group threat...if there is it is little and its a prelude to escape or agression...

Never allow yourself to be completely surrounded...stagger thier numbers or funnel them somehow...
Always have an out or an escape...if one is not evident...make it so. If you do escape , be prepared to be followed or chased and be prepared to make examples out of those doing so.

If escape is not an option and there is no negotiating... then agression should be violent and by suprise... You should take the nearest target and injure him...I dont mean punch his face or anything trivial... I mean crush his throat...and grab a handful of testicles... dont forsake yourself the luxury of the "meat shield" or "hostage"...sometimes all they need to see is violence to deter them further...
If the group agresses...line them up and injure them one by one...always rotating and using the threats injured bodies against each other...

STAY OFF THE GROUND... if you get there... GET BACK UP ASAP

just thought I would chime in a bit...

DarrinD

07-30-09, 14:02

I often find myself in these situations especially in high crime urban areas...

A group threat should be considered life threatening at all times... Most often there isnt much negotiating with a group threat...if there is it is little and its a prelude to escape or agression...

. . .

If escape is not an option and there is no negotiating... then agression should be violent and by suprise... You should take the nearest target and injure him...I dont mean punch his face or anything trivial... I mean crush his throat...and grab a handful of testicles... dont forsake yourself the luxury of the "meat shield" or "hostage"...sometimes all they need to see is violence to deter them further...
If the group agresses...line them up and injure them one by one...always rotating and using the threats injured bodies against each other...

just thought I would chime in a bit...

If you are facing a life threatening situation such as you explain, why would you want to either (1) engage in hand to hand combat ("crush his throat") or (2) if you are using a handgun, why shoot to injure? It's pretty well universally accepted that you should never shoot to injure.

Escape and Evade; if you can't and your life is in danger: shoot to stop. This may or may not result in death or an injury, but your intent should be to stop, which most likely will mean repeated shots to COM or one to the CNS.

BLACK LION

07-30-09, 14:09

another thing...

often times the criminal element uses social means to get to an asocial end... dotn fall for the.."hey check this out" or "you have a cigarette" or "you have a quarter"...whatever...

Keep a grimmace and if approched for any reason put both hands up in neutral and continue about your business without conversation...

maybe get a german shephard or doberman.... My red doberman does wonders as a deterrent...

awareness has alot to do with your demeanor...if you are constanlly watching your clock and scanning your area (this means looking up and down too) you are less likely to be conceived as prey...Look people in thier eyes and right through them...give them a downward noda nd continue on... dont stare or "mad-dog" just let them know that you are not the one...silently and politely...
Keep you perimeter sucure... dont let people within 3 feet if you dont have to... always have a fortified position and be prepared for the worst wether you are on the bus, at the restaraunt or in your car at a light... Keep your head out of your arse... dont read..text...listen to mp3s or cds... talk on the cell or anything that can deteriorate your full focus and attention...not even for a second.

Your personal protection regimen should be layerd in case one fails there is a default...

BLACK LION

07-30-09, 14:21

If you are facing a life threatening situation such as you explain, why would you want to either (1) engage in hand to hand combat ("crush his throat") or (2) if you are using a handgun, why shoot to injure? It's pretty well universally accepted that you should never shoot to injure.

Escape and Evade; if you can't and your life is in danger: shoot to stop. This may or may not result in death or an injury, but your intent should be to stop, which most likely will mean repeated shots to COM or one to the CNS.

Oh no.. I never said shoot to injure... should you make the decision to employ a labor saving device such as a firearm... shoot to incapacitate completely... center of mass... cns or medula...

I was not granted the right to ccw here in san diego ca... I have either a blade or my body... A blade would go into to neck or groin...
For hand to hand against multiple attackers injury has to be the goal out of the gate... crushing a throat or ramming a thumb through the orbital fissures is a start...a neck or knee can be broken as a follow up while proceeding through to his accomplice... you dont have time to beat each one to non-functional one at a time... so whatever is done has to be part of a fluid process that doesnt stop until all have sufferd debilitating injuries... then repeat the process to seal the deal is desired....
You cant always escape and hand to hand does oftten come becuase of this... just dont bring a stand up punch and kick and grapple fight... bring them doom by crushing everything you touch..

ZDL

07-30-09, 16:10

***********

Irish

07-30-09, 16:22

Tony Blauer video explaining... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jk_Ai8qT2s4. Several more in the related videos section. Good sound theory and some great advice in these videos.

BLACK LION

07-30-09, 19:28

I have been assaulted by multiple threats on more than one occassion. All ranging from people I knew to people I had never seen before in my life....I have been jumped by gangs, nazis and marines.
The very last time I found myself in a situation like this I was assaulted by 10 at 1 time and had to go to the hospital for staples from being flogged with a bottle during the process... Yes I have been there... and I will never be there again.

I grew up in Sn Bernardino in the 80s and 90s...I have lived in and commuted many bad areas in California, New Orleans and Chicago... I currently live pretty much in the armpit of one now(City Heights)... crime and murder are rampant and the criminal element is on every corner....

I may sound a bit off or a bit romantical but we are on the internet and I am typing my thoughts... I apologize if I come off a bit lofty but hey... I have been there and I deal with the criminal element daily...

I have been into martial arts for 25 years and I have had good friends and great fighters die under the very same circumstances... My focused changed to more unconventional means of combat over the last 7 years or so becuase of this.

We train gross motor function, which is large muscle groups... I dont train intricate esoteric techniques in h2h...I work the principles and thats it. I understand whats available to us when under duress and it is definately not fine motor skill. There are many misconceptions out there and I make it a point to prove and disprove whats being fed to people.

Taking your body like a truck and using your forearm as the bumper to drive it though a neck is not fine motor skill... trying to expediently land punches and kicks and funky locks and holds is...

I hope I am making more sense...if not... I will continue

DarrinD

07-30-09, 19:44

BLACK LION

07-31-09, 11:20

I wanted to get some clarification. Do you believe you should retreat if possible when faced by a potential confrontation from multiple potential attackers?

Second, why not move out here to Mesa, Arizona and avoid all that criminal element contact. :)

I do believe that escape/egress or negotiation/improvisation are by far the first means of action.

It is rare that its a suprise situation that you could not have avoided... Most often awareness, practical perception,visual deterrents(knife-stick-dog) and being able to communicate in a strict yet neutral manner are enough to keep you out of harms way and out of a potentially dangerous situation. Survival is the key to valor...Avoidance and escape is prime choice. Violence of agression is rarely the answer to conflict but be prepared for when it is the only answer.

I have been trying to convince the woman to move to Az but she is not budging... Its only a matter of time;)