View Full Version : Why do people do this?
In the last couple of weeks, I have been noticing a lot of "BCM" threads. Most of them are on TOS, but there has been some on here as well.
These threads tend to be about someone having an "issue."
Example A: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=451476
If you read the title of the thread, the OP is asking if people would "accept" this BCG. He then added, that he has been in touch with the manufacturer.
The OP then advises the "hive" that he is not going to name the company until they have "made it right."
Once the OP gets what he wants, he announces who the company was. Then everyone dog piles on that Paul's QC is slipping.
My question is, what if the "hive" said that it is fine and just shoot it? What would the OP do then? Keep it? People are pretending to ask questions about whether or not they should keep something, but in reality are basically lying as they have already DEMANDED that the manufacturer refund their shipping and get them a new one out.
Example B: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=451618&page=2
In this thread, Paul is not even aware of it and people start to ASSume that he is hiding from the issue because he has not responded.
Paul provides a detailed response based on what the TDP allows and everyone just melts away. No further discussion by the "herd."
So here is my question. What do people believe that they are gaining by doing these types of threads? Do they believe that the manufacturer will be interested in helping them faster? Do they believe that they will endear themselves to the dealer? Do they think that they are doing the "community" a service with these threads? If so, what service did they accomplish?
In the first thread, the marks on top of the carrier can barely be seen by the naked eye and has zero to do with the functionality of the BCG. In the second thread, the BCG's are 100% in spec with the TDP and so there is nothing wrong with them in the least.
What people (that know next to nothing about AR's) will get from threads like the above two is that Paul is doing poor QC, and that there are "flaws" in their BCG.
In actuality, what people SHOULD take from the thread is that Paul does NOT personally inspect each BCG that leaves the shop (has employees for that) and they can make mistakes. That the BCG's are 100% in spec with the US Govt issued TDP and are as good as it gets.
I apologize up front for the rant, but have had a rash of customers doing, saying and threatening us with REALLY stupid BS and if we do not do it their way, they will "trash us" on the net. :rolleyes: Couple this with the recent "BCM sucks threads" and I am just about over it.
C4
Why do people do this?
Uuummmmm...because they're idiots?
The term 'hive' implies that nobody can think for themselves and that the 'hive' is the priority and the individuals are expendable.
Sounds about right for that place.
Uuummmmm...because they're idiots?
The term 'hive' implies that nobody can think for themselves and that the 'hive' is the priority and the individuals are expendable.
Sounds about right for that place.
Well, I really want to believe that people have a real purpose for doing this type of stuff and that their motives are sincere.
I think I am wrong in my assumptions though.
C4
... and I am just about over it.
Clearly. ;)
First, let's take knowledge, experience, maturity, and professionalism out of the equation. You've simply got Customer A who buys a product and doesn't get exactly what he expected.
He then rushes to the forums to crow loudly about it, possibly under the guise of "gee is this ok?" I think there are two reasons for this. One, it's accepted, perhaps even expected behavior at this point ... if you have a problem, you should tell everyone else. Two, consumers have an unrealistic belief that one complaint on the internet could be the undoing of a company and thus they hope to leverage their "power" by creating these threads.
The basic concept is, "I posted on Forum-X that your product has a problem. Either replace it so I can tell everyone you're a great company that stands behind its products, or I'll tell everyone you threatened to rape me with a chainsaw."
That's one of the things that separates M4C ... people aren't allowed to post random "hey I think this is frakked up" threads until they've contacted the manufacturer and at least attempted resolution. In many cases -- such as the one you referenced in your post -- this would probably have led to zero drama when the customer was told his gear was perfectly ok.
The other thing is that some folks are just plain stupid about how guns work. If I order a G&R LPK and a non-bearing part has a surface scratch on it, what the hell do I care? It's an internal part. Either it works well or it doesn't. Unless I'm buying the LPK to display the individual parts over my mantle -- nothing personal, Grant, but I'm not -- then who gives a flying <expletives followed by more expletives>.
Saw this all the time at Beretta & SIG. Customer would complain about a scratch on the inside of the slide or, my favorite, "wear on the frame rails." A substantial percentage of the gun-owning public really would be better prepared and better satisfied with some nicely painted rocks.
rubberneck
07-18-09, 10:28
IMHO Ted Yost has the best approach to this phenomenon. If you have a problem with any work done in his shop or any of the products he sells he will do what ever it takes to make it right if you go to him first. If your first instinct is to run to the web before talking to him than your done as a customer.
Agree with your comments Todd. Let me also state that the customer should ALWAYS get what they paid for (which is an operational item).
In both of the above threads, the OP was going to get what they wanted from Paul WITHOUT EVER having to mention anything on the net. So it wasn't like they had to hold him to the fire in order to get a return.
C4
It's really a shame that these people ignore the many, many good reviews about BCM, GRT, Brownell's, Magpul, and others products and customer service and focus on the 1% of transactions that have had an issue. They then conveniently forget that these issues are almost always resolved with the customer being happy. They are worried about the exception, not the rule.
Grant,
My feeling is people who take this approach before exhausting a more professional avenue simply have a character flaw and it's probably seen in their daily life and attitude. I also think the internet can make this flaw come out tenfold. Airing dirty laundry on a public forum almost always comes across as classless and those that jump on the hate waggon probably have no intention of doing biz with the accused company anyway. :rolleyes: It's really hard to ruin a reputation that has been established and the whiners end up looking like the asses they are.
While the internet is a great place to get eduacated, it certainly can bring out the worst in some folks.
beaker1013
07-18-09, 11:44
I think you have to look at the site in general. Most of the people on there seem to be more concerned with the "fit and finish" of something than if it is a quality part or the functionality of said parts.
Semper Fi,
Dave
Grant,
My feeling is people who take this approach before exhausting a more professional avenue simply have a character flaw and it's probably seen in their daily life and attitude. I also think the internet can make this flaw come out tenfold. Airing dirty laundry on a public forum almost always comes across as classless and those that jump on the hate waggon probably have no intention of doing biz with the accused company anyway. :rolleyes: It's really hard to ruin a reputation that has been established and the whiners end up looking like the asses they are.
While the internet is a great place to get eduacated, it certainly can bring out the worst in some folks.
Yes.
What commonly happens, is that people just scanning thread titles will see something like this:
"What is wrong with my BCM/KAC/NOVESKE???"
If people would pop in to read the 4th page of the thread, they would find out that there is actually NOTHING wrong and the issue was caused by a stupid user trick or do not understand the specs called out by the TDP.
So the lurker know believes that the above companies mentioned are crap, just by scanning the thread title. :mad:
C4
There are a lot of good observations here. I also think the internet - in general - allows people to post their negative experiences. It seems to me that I see a lot more negative posts and reviews than I see positive ones.
Spooky
ETA: let everyone at barfcom go on and on about BCM and how "bad" their "fit and finish" is. More for folks who will actually use their BCMs and not complain about minor issues.
Yep, it does look like an 'oops' in the QA department. However, the way a Man would handle this would be to contact the manufacture/retailer and send them the pick. If they are doing good business, they will rush ship you a new one with a return shipping slip for the bad one.
All the same, this is one of my concerns about what is currently going on in the industry. How is the current high demand impacting QC?
Phil Hirsh
07-18-09, 11:58
I sent my GSG 5 to the shop three times and it never functioned as it should. Jams, FTFs... the customer service was good, but the design was just too complex. Would I be allowed to post this comment?
MOB RULES:D.they feel the need to have others pat them on the back and tell them "all is well "or "You got hosed ".instead of trying to contact the Dealer to make sure it is in spec and will function.
sort of like the thread where they attacked you on TOS ,just a bunch of guys with nothing better to do but sit around bad mouthing a company, without even giving them a call first to fix it .
childish :rolleyes:
I sent my GSG 5 to the shop three times and it never functioned as it should. Jams, FTFs... the customer service was good, but the design was just too complex. Would I be allowed to post this comment?
I would say Yes if they try and fix it ,but it is in the design than that is a big problem
Yep, it does look like an 'oops' in the QA department. However, the way a Man would handle this would be to contact the manufacture/retailer and send them the pick. If they are doing good business, they will rush ship you a new one with a return shipping slip for the bad one.
All the same, this is one of my concerns about what is currently going on in the industry. How is the current high demand impacting QC?
Most companies do not do ANY QC at all. They expect/assume that the ACTUAL manufacturer of the barrel, receiver, etc does the QC. Only a handful of companies that assemble AR's have someone that pays attention to QC (FYI).
With that said, the first thread with the teeth marks on top of the carrier are actually hard to see I am told.
The power of high end camera lens and a big computer screen makes things much worse than they are.
Case in point. See the tool marks on my 1911? My super expensive MACRO lens brought those out. If you were looking at it with the naked eye, they cannot be seen.
C4
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/GR%201911/Checkering%20on%20rear%20of%20slide.jpg
rubberneck
07-18-09, 12:14
I sent my GSG 5 to the shop three times and it never functioned as it should. Jams, FTFs... the customer service was good, but the design was just too complex. Would I be allowed to post this comment?
Why mention the shop? It seems to me that you got a defective product from the manufacturer and in good faith the shop tried to help you out. I hope I read your post correctly but it wasn't clear if you gave the manufacturer the chance to fix it or replace it. IMHO if the manufacturer wasn't given the chance to fix it it doesn't seem fair to mention it in public until they had. Everyone screws up. It's how they respond to a screw up that is important.
I sent my GSG 5 to the shop three times and it never functioned as it should. Jams, FTFs... the customer service was good, but the design was just too complex. Would I be allowed to post this comment?
You can post any comment you like. It would be wise though to realize that many on top of many people have no issues with that weapon. So I am not sure what benefit your post would be to people.
C4
As a dealer AND consumer of guns, gear and training this is how I handle things if a problem is encountered:
1. Attempt to figure out if the problem is my fault or the manufacturers. If I do not have the knowledge to do this, I call people that know more than I and ask them. I do NOT post on the net and ask the "hive" if this is "normal".
2. If the problem is not the result of me doing something stupid, then I will attempt to see if I can fix the problem myself. It is important to note here that you can make the problem MUCH worse than it is so be prepared to accept the fact that you may void the warrantly.
3. If I cannot fix it, I then call or e-mail the manufacturer for assistance. I am polite, I do not yell at them and do not advise them that their products sucks or that I am disapointed with it or their company.
I ask for them to examine the item and to let me know what happened. If they offer to cover my shipping, then I will accept. If they do not offer to cover my shipping, I do not get pissed about $5-$15 dollars.
I also give the manufacturer time to respond and no, 2 days is not enough time for some of these companies.
4. If they fix and or replace the item, I do not say word one about what happened on ANY forum and thank them for their excellent CS.
5. If they tell me to go away and I am just hosed, I still do not post anything on the net & attempt to go back door through a friend of a friend and see if I can get some help. The reason why I do not throw the company under the bus is because I might have gotten a $7 dollar an hour guy that hates his job.
6. If I still do not get any assistance, I will advise the company that I am not pleased with what has happened and will leave them negative feedback so that others do not get screwed like I did.
Step 6 is ALWAYS used as an absolute LAST resort.
C4
Phil Hirsh
07-18-09, 13:00
I had my GSG to the dealer three times. Three times it failed within a very short period. I talked with them on the phone, researched other complaints, even demos of the problem posted on YouTube... I am not alone in my criticism. This experience would be beneficial to both M4's membership and the manufacturer. As for my SR 556 problems, I did contact the company and I praised their efforts to fix the problem, but it is a new gun on the market and all kinds of problems are bound to flair up. This is a useful forum for finding out if other people have had the same issues. This is an entirely reasonable use of the site. What seems to be suggested is that the membership never use the site for reference if the investigation is negative.
One more example: CAI products fail all the time. People complain about their products on a huge scale. Since they are so badly reviewed, should I wait until CAI has taken six months to not fix my problem before I complain? Should CAI sucks threads be removed from our forums?
So, if you have a problem with a product:
1. Contact the company
2. Wait for their effort to fix it
3. If the problem is solved don't mention it. If not THEN, you can bring it up.
Going4Broke
07-18-09, 13:11
Because so many people only respond to threads and not start them. They think it is really cool to start a thread and as soon as something happens they throw it out there and feel really important about doing so before thinking about it and realizing how dumb it makes them look. This is my feelings anyway. . . . . just like the person who posts there new KISS rifle pics. It is a KISS rifle that everyone has seen a million times over. . . . who cares! Maybe that is a little harsh, but I have a new KISS rifle I just finished (my first AR) and I am not about to post pics and act like a little school girl because it happens everyday. . . on TOS at least.;)
Phil,
I think the procedure has been talked about and explained before. I also believe that it is the way the message is delivered as well. I am willing to bet that if you did the following no one would say a word.
1. Gents. I have a GSG-5 that I am having issues with. The issues are xxxxx xxxxx xxxx.
2. Has anyone else had such a problem?
Then through natural progression you can elaborate by saying that you contacted the manufacturer/ importer xxxx amount if times and the problem has not been solved. My guess is that no one say anything because you asked legitimate questions to an issue, you contacted the manufacturer/ importer first and you got no relief.
More often than not, this is not the way it's being done.
As for the Ruger 556. I think there was sound advice given here given their reputation that being the first on the block might not be the smartest thing to do.
I had my GSG to the dealer three times. Three times it failed within a very short period. I talked with them on the phone, researched other complaints, even demos of the problem posted on YouTube... I am not alone in my criticism. This experience would be beneficial to both M4's membership and the manufacturer. As for my SR 556 problems, I did contact the company and I praised their efforts to fix the problem, but it is a new gun on the market and all kinds of problems are bound to flair up. This is a useful forum for finding out if other people have had the same issues. This is an entirely reasonable use of the site. What seems to be suggested is that the membership never use the site for reference if the investigation is negative.
One more example: CAI products fail all the time. People complain about their products on a huge scale. Since they are so badly reviewed, should I wait until CAI has taken six months to not fix my problem before I complain? Should CAI sucks threads be removed from our forums?
So, if you have a problem with a product:
1. Contact the company
2. Wait for their effort to fix it
3. If the problem is solved don't mention it. If not THEN, you can bring it up.
Dealers DO talk to one another about problem customers and warn each other to stay away from them.
C4
Yikes! :eek::eek::eek:
btw I've found BCM to be most gracious regarding a return.
RogerinTPA
07-18-09, 13:36
Some internet, intergalactic moderator, should just simply "lock" TOS altogether.:p
I think this has more to do with Mob Mentality most of the time rather than trying to be informative or helpful...
One person has a minor issue with a product and wants to be the first to point out what may or may not be a wide spread problem.
So to draw attention to himself...He goes on the the net and shouts the problem to anyone who will listen.
The next guy wants to get in on the conversation so he can "Crow" about how he would address the problem and show the world just how intelligent he is on the paticular subject and in the process stroke his own ego.
Soon you have a group of people who may or may not know what they are talking about running around playing expert...but by this time it doesn't really matter because there are enough of them that if anyone disagrees with them...they all pounce on the nay sayer and procede to berate him to oblivion.
After all we all know that one person may be wrong...but not the entire Mob.
And if you happen to have subject matter expert or industry professional next to your name...many see this as an oppurtunity to dress you down and put you in your place.
I had my GSG to the dealer three times. Three times it failed within a very short period. I talked with them on the phone, researched other complaints, even demos of the problem posted on YouTube... I am not alone in my criticism. This experience would be beneficial to both M4's membership and the manufacturer. As for my SR 556 problems, I did contact the company and I praised their efforts to fix the problem, but it is a new gun on the market and all kinds of problems are bound to flair up. This is a useful forum for finding out if other people have had the same issues. This is an entirely reasonable use of the site. What seems to be suggested is that the membership never use the site for reference if the investigation is negative.
One more example: CAI products fail all the time. People complain about their products on a huge scale. Since they are so badly reviewed, should I wait until CAI has taken six months to not fix my problem before I complain? Should CAI sucks threads be removed from our forums?
So, if you have a problem with a product:
1. Contact the company
2. Wait for their effort to fix it
3. If the problem is solved don't mention it. If not THEN, you can bring it up.
Gun forums can be used to ask if people have had problem with items (no question about it).
The two examples I posted above are how NOT to do it, especially when BCM has some of the best QC going in the industry. If we saw a problem with BCM on a regular basis, then those two threads would have a leg to stand on.
If you have an issue and the company resolves it, I think it is fine to post your experience, but just pay attention to how you word the title.
For instance, you had an issue with a BCM BCG, sent it back to them and they made it all right. Your post would look like this:
Title: Excellent CS from BCM!
Thread: Had an extraction issue with my BCM BCG, contacted Paul and he took care of it right away.
Now take the same situation and start a thread this way:
Title: Is BCM's QC slipping???
Thread: I got a bad one, sent it back to Paul and he took care of me right away!
For the casual lurker that was wanting to buy a BCM BCG and sees thread number two (without reading the thread) would assume that there is now an issue with ALL BCM BCG's.
See how damaging these mis-leading titles can be??? This is what bothers me the most.
C4
Some internet, intergalactic moderator, should just simply "lock" TOS altogether.:p
Lord knows I have tried. I even went as far to tell the entire TOS STAFF where to go. This did not seem to work out in my favor though. :D
C4
I think this has more to do with Mob Mentality most of the time rather than trying to be informative or helpful...
One person has a minor issue with a product and wants to be the first to point out what may or may not be a wide spread problem.
So to draw attention to himself...He goes on the the net and shouts the problem to anyone who will listen.
The next guy wants to get in on the conversation so he can "Crow" about how he would address the problem and show the world just how intelligent he is on the paticular subject and in the process stroke his own ego.
Soon you have a group of people who may or may not know what they are talking about running around playing expert...but by this time it doesn't really matter because there are enough of them that if anyone disagrees with them...they all pounce on the nay sayer and procede to berate him to oblivion.
After all we all know that one person may be wrong...but not the entire Mob.
And if you happen to have subject matter expert or industry professional next to your name...many see this as an oppurtunity to dress you down and put you in your place.
Correct you are. People are always wanting to be the very first to find a mistake with a product and then be the knight in shining armor that saves the peasants from making the same mistake they did. :rolleyes:
I swear I have people that follow me around on this forum so that they can simply correct my grammar, mis-wording of a reply in a technical discussion or the incorrect name of something. Man does that get old real fast.
I see mistakes/incorrect terms used by the IP's and SME's on this forum all the time. If it is a real bad one, I contact them privately and make them aware in a "nice" manner. I find that they appreciate this greatly.
We are all human, which means that we are more than likely going to mess something up (Lord knows I do).
C4
Yikes! :eek::eek::eek:
btw I've found BCM to be most gracious regarding a return.
You should be VERY concerned! Just kidding.
I do keep a tacked "banned" list in my shop of people/companies that I will NOT do business with. I even go to the extent of blocking their IP address so they cannot buy anything from me. :eek:
C4
Jay Cunningham
07-18-09, 14:42
You should be VERY concerned! Just kidding.
I do keep a tacked "banned" list in my shop of people/companies that I will NOT do business with. I even go to the extent of blocking their IP address so they cannot buy anything from me. :eek:
C4
Is Dinger on there?
I swear I have people that follow me around on this forum so that they can simply correct my grammar, mis-wording of a reply in a technical discussion or the incorrect name of something. Man does that get old real fast.C4
I have noticed this type of behaviour from a select few individuals here on M4 Forums...Luckily it seems to be rather infrequent as compared to other Firearm Forums I visit.
I have just gotten in the habit of passing by any and all post, threads and responses from these folks...Theres always a bad apple or two in any bunch and I won't let them ruin the otherwise good information and advice to be had in this Forum.
Is Dinger on there?
Lord yes! Years ago.
C4
As a dealer AND consumer of guns, gear and training this is how I handle things if a problem is encountered:
1. Attempt to figure out if the problem is my fault or the manufacturers. If I do not have the knowledge to do this, I call people that know more than I and ask them. I do NOT post on the net and ask the "hive" if this is "normal".
You happen to be in a position where you know people who are knowledgeable about firearms and have people you can call. Many gun owners are just people who own firearms, not people who have friends and contacts involved in shooting. They don't follow technical discussions about firearms or industry news about firearms. They have no one to rely on for sound advice so they post a thread in an online forum to see what they should do.
Thinking and putting in effort to find a solution on one's own takes skull sweat. A lot of people are not up to the challenge. (How often do people ignore the search function?) Whether they should be limited to having painted rocks is another discussion.
-I'm reminded of Donald Sutherland as Oddball in Kelly's Heroes lounging by his broken tank. When Clint Eastwood asked him why he wasn't helping fix the tank, Oddball replied, "I just drive them. I don't know what makes them work." Replace "drive" with "shoot" and that statement would apply to a very large percentage of gun owners.
I bought a semi-custom 1911 several years ago that had issues with ejection. Rather than posting complaints on web sites I contacted the manufacturer and gave them the opportunity to make it right. They asked me to send it back and offered to pay the shipping both ways. I had it back in less than a week and have never had another problem with it. I later bought another gun form the same manufacturer since I was impressed with their product and customer service.
I have never understood why someone would post an issue on the web before contacting the manufacturer and asking them to resolve the problem. How would they like it if someone started saying negative things about them on the web before giving them a chance to present their side of the story? I think the moderators on web sites should block this type of post unless it can be proved that the OP had contacted the manufacturer and the manufacturer did not respond.
RetreatHell
07-18-09, 15:59
I remember a short while back there was a thread written by a guy who had a problem with his AAC can (can't remember what the problem was, but it doesn't really matter here). The Staff here closed the thread until the OP had a chance to communicate back and forth with AAC and resolve the problem.
Before the problem was resolved, I remember thinking, "Why did they close the thread? That's kinda ****ed up!" But then I read what the Staff (I think it was the Staff who wrote it) posted. They said basically that the internet has a long memory, and that people could very easily find that particular thread ad copy and paste/repost some of the comments all over the place, in effect making AAC look like a "bad" company when they hadn't yet had a real opportunity to even respond to the OP and even begin to resolve the issue.
After reading the Staff's comment it all completely made sense to me at that point. I mean, things could have gotten out of control real quick had the Staff not intervened (although they never did, especially when compared to the threads that Grant has linked to from ARFCOM...wow:rolleyes:). And wouldn't you know it, after the OP got into contact with AAC, everything was resolved and he was happy. AAC even offered to re-finish his silencer in a color of his choice (they had to re-paint it anyways I believe, but still, they didn't technically have to offer anything).
All I know is that I'm happy with my BCM stuff. And if I DID get something from them that I was unsatisfied with, I would simply contact BCM about it and get it resolved. Why be so damn insecure as to have to post your problem with the company in the forums, asking what you should do?? (I'm only referring to the BCM threads, NOT the AAC thread I mentioned earlier) I'll tell you what you should do: contact the manufacturer/company and communicate with them about it! I have a feeling they'd simply say, "Okay sorry about that, buddy. Just ship that one back to us and we'll get you another one out ASAP. Thanks so much for your business and we apologize for this inconvenience, sir."
Is it really that complicated?
-Paul
Threads like those are the reason I start threads like my "Slip did it again" threads. When companies go above and beyond, people should know about it.
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-18-09, 16:34
Lord yes! Years ago.
C4
Lord, yes. It was years ago.
That was too hard to resist. I wish someone actually would help me with my puncuation, particularly; I'm a comma-holic, if you know what I mean.
With TOS, its not so much that there aren't any good posts there, the problem is that there are to many bad ones. Its the ratio that makes anything past the first page worthless to read.
Never had to contact Paul on anything, but a lot of manufacturers are fairly hard to get in touch with, especially in the past months. Dropping a question here or TOS gets you an answer (hopefully correct) pretty quick, and it is public, so if it is bogus people can chime in.
I think what you are seeing Grant, are the people that believe they deserve the best in whatever they purchase, and if it doesn't make the grade, they take it as a personal attack and it turns into a vendetta. Logic, courtesy, fairness, all do not enter into the equation. For many of those people, how they react on the web, is an extension of how they believe life should work. Big part of that is how they were brought up and the examples they learned from. Hard to blame them, when we really should be slapping the s**% out of the parents.
Not to say there aren't some companies out there that don't deserve to be in business. but for every one person that throws a fit and goes mental, there are 500 who are happy content customers. Too bad that we usually hear the whiners, the most. And for the people who listen to the whiners, they don't make good customers, as they will make rushed judgements also, never be happy, and will always blame someone else.
Considering the rep that BCM has on the net and on so many forums, negative stuff just runs off 'em like butter on a hot knife; people know their products too well. Let them purchase an Oly and truly find what issues there can be.
This is what I did . READ my Intro and my response in post #12.I took the blame from BCM and criticized myself for being a little anal about the upper fit.I then proceeded to give Paul and BCM a thumbs up for EXTRAORDINARY Customer Service.Hey Grant, I'm not on your list am I?;)
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=31506
It's really a shame that these people ignore the many, many good reviews about BCM, GRT, Brownell's, Magpul, and others products and customer service and focus on the 1% of transactions that have had an issue. They then conveniently forget that these issues are almost always resolved with the customer being happy. They are worried about the exception, not the rule.
We're talking about the same people who post threads about going shopping for an AR-15 and coming back with a DPMS because the Colt had "poor fit and finish".
Most of the time this is BS - they didn't buy the Colt because it cost more, and they're trying to convince themselves they got the better deal.
It also explains the increasing array of "Prove UTG/Blackthorne/Hesse/Vulcan is bad, but only people who own them are allowed to have an opinion" threads over there the last year or two. Some people simply don't understand that there are minimum costs/materials/standards associated with having an item that isn't crap, and that some companies (Vulcan!) fail that test miserably.
In the last couple of weeks, I have been noticing a lot of "BCM" threads. Most of them are on TOS, but there has been some on here as well.
These threads tend to be about someone having an "issue."
Example A: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=451476
If you read the title of the thread, the OP is asking if people would "accept" this BCG. He then added, that he has been in touch with the manufacturer.
The OP then advises the "hive" that he is not going to name the company until they have "made it right."
Once the OP gets what he wants, he announces who the company was. Then everyone dog piles on that Paul's QC is slipping.
My question is, what if the "hive" said that it is fine and just shoot it? What would the OP do then? Keep it? People are pretending to ask questions about whether or not they should keep something, but in reality are basically lying as they have already DEMANDED that the manufacturer refund their shipping and get them a new one out.
Example B: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=451618&page=2
In this thread, Paul is not even aware of it and people start to ASSume that he is hiding from the issue because he has not responded.
Paul provides a detailed response based on what the TDP allows and everyone just melts away. No further discussion by the "herd."
So here is my question. What do people believe that they are gaining by doing these types of threads? Do they believe that the manufacturer will be interested in helping them faster? Do they believe that they will endear themselves to the dealer? Do they think that they are doing the "community" a service with these threads? If so, what service did they accomplish?
In the first thread, the marks on top of the carrier can barely be seen by the naked eye and has zero to do with the functionality of the BCG. In the second thread, the BCG's are 100% in spec with the TDP and so there is nothing wrong with them in the least.
What people (that know next to nothing about AR's) will get from threads like the above two is that Paul is doing poor QC, and that there are "flaws" in their BCG.
In actuality, what people SHOULD take from the thread is that Paul does NOT personally inspect each BCG that leaves the shop (has employees for that) and they can make mistakes. That the BCG's are 100% in spec with the US Govt issued TDP and are as good as it gets.
I apologize up front for the rant, but have had a rash of customers doing, saying and threatening us with REALLY stupid BS and if we do not do it their way, they will "trash us" on the net. :rolleyes: Couple this with the recent "BCM sucks threads" and I am just about over it.
C4
I think that most of the people who post things like that do not know what nice is so thy only have the other people on the forums to tell them.That is were the problems come when the truth is most of the people do not know what it takes to make nice things or what thy are.We are all just people ho are trying to make the best product we can i feel bad for the people who do this kind of thing.
Superior Firearms
5510 Fern Vally RD. Ste 102
Louisville KY. 40228
502-365-2244
I think the assumption that malice is always behind these threads is incorrect, though in some cases I'm sure there is ill intent.
There are lots of folks (especially on a site as big as ar15.com) who are ar15 novices, gun novices, ignorant about gun mechanisms, or any combination of these. Sometimes those guys post just trying to find out if they really have a problem because they don't know better and the web is their only apparent resource.
See how damaging these mis-leading titles can be??? This is what bothers me the most.
Agreed, that can be a problem.
Encourage folks to update/change their titles! I did that here <http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=2&f=138&t=175790>, in a thread that was coincidentally about BCM. The poster was happy to oblige.
ohiorifleman
07-18-09, 21:54
I had an issue with a BCM purchase two months back- got my package from them on a Thursday. On Friday afternoon had a chance to put the parts together- identified a problem, emailed Paul- received a call from him Friday night.
I shipped "bad" parts back on Saturday had new replacements in hand on Tuesday.
Took everything I had not to post the problem and ask questions but I knew Paul would come through so there was no reason to sound the alarms.
Bottom Line- Trust Bravo Company- and probably Grant too- just can't stand that Ohio sales tax so I haven't ordered from him yet!
There are thousands of other companies that aren't doing it right and don't care- send the TOS yokels to pick on them.
You will notice I posted in both of those threads, you will also notice I never said anything bad but instead defended Paul.
You have no idea, I'm one of the most bashed members on that site. I'm a "Colt Kool-aid drinker" and I also vehemently support BCM. It really gets annoying chewing out the same trolls.
Grant,
This has been going on for a long time, it has been made much, much worse by the internet. As a kid growing up I remember people trashing the local sports shop because they didn't get their way. How many times have you heard,"I'm never buying from that hi-way robber again! Turns out I could have gotten the same thing $13.72 cheaper at Joe's Sports".
The internet just allows these people to communicate much faster than before. They can also tell all their internet buddies, most of whom are complete strangers, and receive their 15 minutes of fame.
People also have absolutely NO idea of production methods or inspection techniques. Their idea of inspection is to 100% visually inspect everything that goes out the door. Let me explain, and numbers bear me out:
100% inspection, is only 80% effective.
Grant, don't let these people bother you. If you run a good business, that is a business where you do the absolute best you can, and treat your customers as you would want to be treated, you will be successful.
The cream always rises to the top.
Understand also, that the company mentioned in the threads has undertaken to ramp up his production. In doing so, there will be times when things go out that he would rather not have.
I would doubt that the two threads discussion centers around anything that is unacceptable according to the suppliers print. Unless I'm really missing something, there is nothing here that affects fit, form, or function. What I'm seeing is cosmetic. The company here didn't even draw a full breath before he said he would take care of it.
Paul is showing the world that the cream always rises to the top.
Mark15
I think the assumption that malice is always behind these threads is incorrect, though in some cases I'm sure there is ill intent.
There are lots of folks (especially on a site as big as ar15.com) who are ar15 novices, gun novices, ignorant about gun mechanisms, or any combination of these. Sometimes those guys post just trying to find out if they really have a problem because they don't know better and the web is their only apparent resource.
Agreed, that can be a problem.
Encourage folks to update/change their titles! I did that here <http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=2&f=138&t=175790>, in a thread that was coincidentally about BCM. The poster was happy to oblige.
You are right. Malice might not be their agenda, but it is basically what is happening.
C4
You are right. Malice might not be their agenda, but it is basically what is happening.
I am surprised that you have let them frustrate you to this extent. It is a well traveled, poorly supervised forum where attitude rules over fact. With that come the morons.
Countless baseless opinions posted everyday. We have been aware of this for some time, have we not?
I am surprised that you have let them frustrate you to this extent. It is a well traveled, poorly supervised forum where attitude rules over fact. With that come the morons.
Countless baseless opinions posted everyday. We have been aware of this for some time, have we not?
I feel much better now if that helps.
C4
jaybird210
07-20-09, 17:26
I don't post much because I try to stay in my lane. Based on my background, experience, and overall knowledge, my lane is actually the ditch of the gravel service road that runs along the highway.
Anyway, something not mentioned yet, but I think also factors in, is the overall change in the way businesses and customers interact these days. You could call it the Walmartification of the world. Most people will shop around and demand the lowest possible price. This puts pressure on some producers to cut costs. Production short-cuts, materials cut backs, QC cuts, etc. The customer gets home with their widget and discovers that it doesn't work or look the way they thought it should. Instead of, as previously mentioned, using their melons to solve the problem, the first thought through their feeble minds is, "G--damn those cheap Chinese/Japanese/southern/northern/eastern/western b------s!!! They ripped me off! This POS doesn't work!!!" Even if they do try to fix it the right way, their attitude sets up the adversarial situation previously mentioned when you talk to the $7/hr clerk who hates his job.
Sometimes, we are our own worst enemies.
I am surprised that you have let them frustrate you to this extent. It is a well traveled, poorly supervised forum where attitude rules over fact. With that come the morons.
Countless baseless opinions posted everyday. We have been aware of this for some time, have we not?
I feel much better now if that helps.
C4
I feel much better now if that helps.
C4
Think we got that the first time. Glad I was able to help.
:D
Patrick Aherne
07-20-09, 19:56
Why worry about this stuff? If Paul loses enough business, we might be able to get some of his stuff. I stopped worrying about guys sitting in their Mom's basement, in their underwear, eating Cheetos and surfing the internet, long ago. I stick to advice from folks who run their stuff as hard or harder than I do. That's less than ten people I can think of right know.
If the internet makes you mad, go take a yoga class or hug a tree!:D Seriously, life is too short to worry about the wankers.
I would be more than happy to even get a auto BCG from BCM. By the time I get the email they are all gone :(
CarlosDJackal
07-20-09, 21:33
Did you by any chance notice which forum this idiocy came from? :confused:
Why do respected dealers post on M4C about the stupid goings on over at TOS?
Is it to get the "hive" to agree and show similar hate?
I agree it is really silly to bash a vendor like they do sometimes - before they talk to them but.....
Really, i think you are much better than this.
Yes, i have ordered things from you in the past and never had a problem. Even if i had, i would have contacted you first and not felt the need to post on the web. Your reputation as well as BCM's is well documented - so if / when there is a problem i / we know it will be taken care of.
Don't stoop to their level. That is why i joined over here - because it is a lot more professional.
Why do respected dealers post on M4C about the stupid goings on over at TOS?
Is it to get the "hive" to agree and show similar hate?
I agree it is really silly to bash a vendor like they do sometimes - before they talk to them but.....
Really, i think you are much better than this.
Yes, i have ordered things from you in the past and never had a problem. Even if i had, i would have contacted you first and not felt the need to post on the web. Your reputation as well as BCM's is well documented - so if / when there is a problem i / we know it will be taken care of.
Don't stoop to their level. That is why i joined over here - because it is a lot more professional.
If you think that these threads only appear on TOS you would mistaken.
C4
thopkins22
07-20-09, 23:02
There's a lot of silliness(that hurts some of the best companies in the business,) everywhere these days. The one difference is that while these folks thrive with the TOSsers, with a few exceptions they don't seem to stick around here very long. Either due to moderator action or not getting along with the mentality that generally prevails here.
I've received absolutely incredible customer service with a couple of M4C friendly brands, truly went above and beyond the great customer service that I demand. I'm talking Next Day Air of heavy/large packages so that I was able to make it to a class with top notch gear(in the midst of the catastrophism I might add.) I'm taken aback by the help to this day.
I wanted to shout from the rooftops how awesome, efficient, and prompt they were. I didn't post a single word because of this "somebody had a problem, everything they make must be overpriced crap," phenomenon.
If you think that these thread only appear on TOS you would mistaken.
C4
Yes, i am aware of that. You even mentioned about it happening here as well. It just drew my attention because you linked directly to TOS. I just thought it was lingering bad blood.
All i'm saying is that you and others reputation is well established already.
I'm sure it is frustrating when posters drag good dealers names in the mud. Sure every dealer can have a bad egg once in a while but it's how they handle it that separates the good from the bad.
I think there have been lots of points that all hold water on why some people do certain things. I know in the beginning of me checking out this site per your hints one day when I was up at your shop one evening picking up my first EBR a 6920 I was probably somewhat clueless. Since coming here I have gained lots of valuable information that I was truly unaware of.
In my personal experience one of your favorite lines of "I didn't know what I didn't know" really hit home. I will admit that early on before I had ever owned an AR I had lurked at arfcom. To be honest I was just looking for a site where I "thought" I was getting the correct information. I quit surfing there when it seemed to be the same old song and dance so to say.
Even here in one of my first posts I mentioned a question I had about the DD Omega rail that I was putting on my 6920. I think it was Rob who called me out on obeying the rules. I could see how this forum was different. Folks here treat this site the way things should be in a professional manner. Sure there can be disagreements from time to time, but in the end it's a much better place to actually learn things. Rob I'm sure was merely trying to point me in the right direction with how to handle things and how to not get out of my lane quickly.
To be honest I felt my post was out of curiosity. I had not bashed the product and my question/post was worded merely knowing that I had no clue what was wrong. I had a little bit of wobble near the barrel nut and I figured since it was a new rifle it might be due to me putting on the new rail. How wrong I was.
I sent you a few emails with pictures of my dilema. I was wondering if the screws needed to fit around the teeth on the nut. After a quick response you stated that you couldn't tell from my picutres. You were kind enough to allow me to come to your shop and I'm sure bug the hell out of you with tons of questions. I clearly remember you taking the time out of your busy day to help me out and fix the problem which was a loose barrel nut. The customer service I received was first class!
You even allowed me first dibs on some pmags in a box that had just come from UPS earlier that day. I got a few other goodies per your advise. I have done quite a few transactions with you and others like Paul who I know are solid people and where I don't mind even paying a few extra dollars (cue in that damn sales tax here that Strickland can't seem to make ends meet with) even.
Even when things may have mistakenly gone wrong, which no one is immune to, I have always had my problems ironed out quickly. My last transaction with Roxanne was very pleasant. She fixed a very easily made slip and went above and beyond. Long story short there was a mix up on an accessory I wanted before I took the MD carbine class. She had the replacement to me the very next day. She told me to put the old item in an envelope and send it back trusting that I would do so. She didn't have to do that and could have very well said that she could only ship it once she got the other item first. Again first class operation and attention to detail with customer service.
In my eyes I will have to agree with others that there will always be dicks out there who try to make themselves feel better at the misfortune or expense of others by any means neccesary. If one does business the correct way and treats their clients the way they would like to be treated they have set themselves up for success. This translates to any business model out there. One will be rewarded for this work ethic.
In the end one should not let the bad apples spoil the good thing you have going. I know it's sometimes hard when you have friends etc in the business and have an emotional attachment or dog in the fight so to say and don't like to see their reputation possibly compromised. Keep up the good work and don't worry about those folks anyway. We need them to be somewhat misguided at times so we can get the good quality products that you and Paul and others provide without seeing them on GB etc and marked up double.
JackOSU, thanks for the post. Helping with questions or AR issues is what we enjoy.
Paul at Bravo and I pretty tight and when I see a "kill BCM" thread, I probably get more pissed off than he does (he has way more patience than I do). He is also much too polite to post a thread like this so I thought I would do it. :D
One of the purposes of this thread was to kind of show people how to go about handling issues with companies. There IS a right way and a wrong way.
C4
It is either an agenda or a character flaw. I've seen it enough now, and it's one of those two things in almost every case I've witnessed to date.
ETA: To be clear, there are a very, very small minority of people who post problems that are genuinely looking for advice, or a possible solution with no agenda whatsoever. It is so rare to be honest, that I almost exclude it as a probable source.
JackOSU, thanks for the post. Helping with questions or AR issues is what we enjoy.
Paul at Bravo and I pretty tight and when I see a "kill BCM" thread, I probably get more pissed off than he does (he has way more patience than I do). He is also much too polite to post a thread like this so I thought I would do it. :D
One of the purposes of this thread was to kind of show people how to go about handling issues with companies. There IS a right way and a wrong way.
C4
Roger that. Keep up the good work and I look forward to getting together hopefully later in the year with the regional group at Jay's to hear some of your scoop on the carbine etc.
That was me with the AAC issue. I actually didn't start that thread with a "was the can borked before it got to me?" kind of question, but rather a situation of "will I make this worse if i keep going"?
I also wasn't fishing for justification to send the can back, but rather what the parameters for "normal" and "acceptable" were, since it was my first can. When I realized that the thread could get out of control without talking to the manufacturer first, I asked the mods to lock it. And they gladly did.
It was unlocked AFTER I received a diagnosis and repair from AAC. In retrospect I should have talked to them first, before posting. Obviously live and learn, in the future I'll go directly to the manufacturer FIRST. But at no point did I ever have it in my mind that AAC wronged me, when they were gracious before and after the repair. My reason for posting in the first place was worry that *I* had screwed up something to begin with.
I had an issue with my SR-15 about 2-3 weeks later, and learned from the AAC experience, and went to KevinB right off the bat, and guess what, it was on its way in for repair less than 12 hours later. I think a lot of these threads in general on AR15 are people wanting to get the popular sentiment to justify their insecurities.
With BCM I'd NEVER worry about getting a part replaced. Never ever. Same goes for Grant, Magpul, KAC, AAC, etc.
I remember a short while back there was a thread written by a guy who had a problem with his AAC can (can't remember what the problem was, but it doesn't really matter here). The Staff here closed the thread until the OP had a chance to communicate back and forth with AAC and resolve the problem.
Before the problem was resolved, I remember thinking, "Why did they close the thread? That's kinda ****ed up!" But then I read what the Staff (I think it was the Staff who wrote it) posted. They said basically that the internet has a long memory, and that people could very easily find that particular thread ad copy and paste/repost some of the comments all over the place, in effect making AAC look like a "bad" company when they hadn't yet had a real opportunity to even respond to the OP and even begin to resolve the issue.
-Paul
"IMHO Ted Yost has the best approach to this phenomenon. If you have a problem with any work done in his shop or any of the products he sells he will do what ever it takes to make it right if you go to him first. If your first instinct is to run to the web before talking to him than your done as a customer."
Sounds like a sweet rule to me. Kind of like ronnie's handling of Cali.
I'm so sick of hearing the words "fit and finish" I almost want to kick a kitten every time I hear them.
I guess no one is immune...
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=452686&page=1
A while back I bought a large number of upper assemblies from a vendor. 2 of those uppers had M4 receivers and non-M4 extensions. I contacted the vendor and their solution was to dremel the shit out of it.
http://www.azbattlerifles.com/images/dremel2.jpg
http://www.azbattlerifles.com/images/dremel.jpg
I then complained to the owner, in person, at a gun show. His comment was "it's no big deal".
So I then went online and posted the pictures above. After a deluge of "OMGWTF" comments from many people, I was contacted by the owner, who offered to fix the problem.
So in that case, I was able to use the internet as leverage against a vendor, who I believe had done a poor job to fix a mistake. That's just me, though.
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