Ammo 38 Special 4" Barrel

[BillORights]

I believe that I should have defensive ammo for all large bore handguns that I own. This includes a S&W Combat Masterpiece in 38 Special that I inherited. I have been able to find information for 38 Special used in 2" BUGs. However, I have been unable to find much regarding 38 Special ammo for a 4" barrel. There does appear to be a general consensus that the "FBI" load of a 158 grain LSWCHP is a viable round, but I have not found supporting data. I suspect that since the 38 Special is no longer being used by law enforcement (I did see some federal rent a cops still packing S&W M&P Model 10s) that nobody is doing any meaningful testing or development for more traditional barrel lengths.

[JHC]

I'm 99% certain DocGKR has advised that the Speer 135 +P grain Gold Dot would still be a good load for 4" barrels. It's my load of choice in my 4" Model 10.

[TOrrock]

I'm 99% certain DocGKR has advised that the Speer 135 +P grain Gold Dot would still be a good load for 4" barrels. It's my load of choice in my 4" Model 10.


The 135 gr. Speer Gold Dot +P is indeed king of the hill......and if I couldn't get any of that, then yes, the old FBI 158 gr. LSWC +P would be what I'd go with.

[Sam]

I also use the Gold Dot 135 +P.

[Glock17JHP]

I like the Winchester 158 grain 'FBI load' in a 4 inch barreled .38 Special...
Winchester 148 grain HBWC in anything shorter than that...

[awm14hp]

The 135 gr. Speer Gold Dot +P is indeed king of the hill......and if I couldn't get any of that, then yes, the old FBI 158 gr. LSWC +P would be what I'd go with.


This is what I do for my 38's same two loads

[tpd223]

135gr Gold Dot or DPX, then the LSWCHP "FBI" loadings by one of the big three, then whatever I can get my hands on in a pinch.

That's my preference list for .38 ammo.

[BillORights]

I appreciate all the responses. They pretty much match what I had gleaned from digging through this forum. However, all due respect, nobody has cited any data to back up the consensus.

There seems to be evidence that the 135 grain gold dot and the DPX do well from 2" barrel. It probably is reasonable to conclude that they will perform well with the nominal increase in velocity from a 4 inch barrel.

But I have not found any data, other than anecdote, about the "FBI" load. Although my personal prejudice towards heavier bullets tends to make me receptive to that premise.

Generally, for example, Speer does well in developing good performing defensive ammunition with its Gold Dot. So, I wonder about the performance say of their 125 grain +P 38 special ammunition, but I cannot find any data.

Again much obliged for all the people that have taken the time to respond with their considered thoughts.

[tpd223]

There is tons of info available on the LSWCHPs, it's just most of what I have seen has been from the FBI.

It's also been used for a very long time in various venues where bad guys get shot often, Chicago and St. Louis come to mind.

These loadings are very much a known quantity, hence my answer.

[Glock17JHP]

Winchester's FBI load has been around since about 1972-73... the load number is X38SPD, the 'SPD' stands for St. Louis Police Department... the original customer for the load. This load was used by at least one agent in the Miami Shootout of 1986. The final shots used were this load, in fact. Expansion is about .57-.60", penetration is about 13.5". This is an extremely consistent performer.

[tpd223]

A quibble, but every agent in the Miami shoot-out with a revolver used this load, from information I have seen presented.

Edmundo Mireles did indeed end that fight with shots from his K frame to the bad guy's heads and necks.

I was honored to attend a class by SA Mireles, excellent training, humble guy.

[Glock17JHP]

I often write my replies here from memory if the details are not real important...
That was why I carefully worded my response the way I did when the comment in question said:
"This load was used by at least one agent in the Miami Shootout of 1986."
No problem whatsoever with your response... you added the details I left out...
I envy that you met SA Ed Mireles...

[Wayne Dobbs]

I also was privileged to meet and listen to SA Mireles while attending an Officer Survival Instructor Course at Metro Dade back in 1996. He was clearly the real deal, but seemed uncomfortable with the attention he had received. He had clearly refused to quit fighting on a terrible day and had carried the fight to the killer(s). I found him to be very down to earth and almost gentle in his personality.

As for the LSWCHP load, I favor the Remingon version over all the others based on chronographing results and the tweaks that RP has done to their version: a semi-hollow base to obtain better bullet obturation (resulting in higher velocity with better accuracy and less leading), a larger hollow point and cavity and a softer alloy (nearly pure lead). From more than one of my J-frames, velocities have run 840-850 fps and expansion to about .55-.58" is the norm (with about half expanding after the four layers of denim test into water).

The WW load was the first of this genre of load, but their version has shown lots of variability due to differing levels of antimony in the bullets from one lot to the next. I've never seen a WW load expand from a 2", although they usually do from a 4" or longer barrel. All of these loads are sorry performers against hard barriers (steel or glass), but against an unprotected antagonist they made the .38 revolver an effective weapon. The actual performance we noted in the Dallas area in dozens of shootings was full torso penetration (12-15") with bullets stopped under the skin on the off side (or in the clothing) and expansion to about .60-.65 caliber. MANY bad guys were dispatched with that load here (and in St. Louis, Chicago, Miami, etc.) from both 2" and 4" guns.

While the 135 GDHP seems to be poised to take its place, I think that the Remingon version still has lots of life left in it, especially when you note the erratic results that Doc Roberts recently noted with the GDHP in follow up testing.

[Glock17JHP]

Had never heard anything bad about the WW 'FBI load' performance... this is a new one on me... I did know, though, that the Remington 'equivilent' had a softer bullet.

[tpd223]

Glock17, no worries, your post was accurate, I just took it from there with the info I had.

Ditto what Wayne said, both on SA Mireles, and the Remigton LSWCHP loading.

[DocGKR]

The Remington 158 gr +P LSWCHP was the best we tested.

[DMR]

Doc,

After your e-mail I'm surprised to see you here "working". God speed.

[DocGKR]

I am having a few minutes of clarity between sleep...