View Full Version : About shotguns... honestly.
I know "just racking the slide of a pump 12 will scare them away!" Buckshot, or even birdshot, will "ruin someone's day!". We have all heard them all. And then some, (dumb things you hear in a gunshop" threads etc. , which I love reading, btw!
But honestly, I have about had it with SOME shotgun people. They act like fudds and then they "tacticool" their shotguns and for some reason this seems to make their weapon so much more "deadly".
I respect the shotgun. I like shotguns. I will always own a shotgun. But for the End of the World scenarios? Nope. Hell no!
With all options, the "gauge" is in the mix. With one option, I choose the rifle. AR, AK, M1A1 etc.
Am I a gun racist? :p
What are your thoughts?
dOg
I really like them & wish more people would consider them for the home if they aren't going to practice with the pistol and combat rifle regularly. To me, they are a little more idiot proof for the novice & folks who have no intention of range time and just want one gun that will never leave the home.
For an all around gun guy who likes them all....I'm happy with whatever is closest. I won't pass a 1911 or 12ga just to grab an ar.
K.L. Davis
07-18-09, 21:59
I won't pass a 1911 or 12ga just to grab an ar.
Well said... I am a big fan of the shotgun and believe that the tactical versions are quite well suited for certain tasks -- I can honestly say that there are times when I have picked the shotgun over all the usual suspects, as it was the best choice.
I am with both responses. I guess the "other types" who will never save money or try to get a good battle rifle have just gotten on my nerves. The same old arguments (though true, to some degree, just get.. well. Older. Kind of a cop out from so many people. My sg can do anything your ar can do, hyuk, hyuk!)
Like I said, I will always have a SG. At least one. But... well, you know. I guess I am a rifleman.
dog
CryingWolf
07-19-09, 04:54
Yeah, Almost as bad as the AR guys! :rolleyes:
I always pick the weapon for the purpose. Bump in the night, 1911 on the night stand along with a flashlight and a shotgun in the corner. The AR along with my plinking 22s etc are locked in the safe. Why you might ask? Well lets see could be because my neighbors house is only 30 feet from my house. Could be the longest unobstructed shot I could ever take on my property is say 40 yards. Why I would ever shoot someone jumping the fence while standing on the corner of my property I do not know. Sounds like I would have some explaining to do after that one.
The shotgun has proved itself in battle many times, from the trenches in WW1 to the jungles in WW2 to the jungles in Vietnam to the house to house searches in Iraq. I don't think people need to defend the shotgun anymore then people need to defend the AR15 or the 1911.
OK lets give a end of the world scenario a little though; what kind of EOTWAWKI scenario are we talking about? Are we talking a Katrina disaster or LA riots? Or are we talking "Patriots (http://www.amazon.com/Patriots-Novel-Survival-Coming-Collapse/dp/156975599X/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1247997690&sr=8-2)" disaster? Are you fighting or opposing a military unit or just running off gangs from burning your house down? What are you going to do about the police wanting to take your guns in the aftermath of a flood? Are you going to shoot them to keep them? Then what happens after the waters recede?
Maybe, if you have some property like a few acres. You may want to be prepared for a varmint attack? In that case I think I would want an good quality AR15 and a shit load of ammo if the raccoons, coyotes, squirrels, and pdogs ever organize into a group to mount an offensive on my house.
Although, I have not seen every shotgun post out there and I am sure there are the nuts saying, "I will use my shotgun when the end of the world comes", the ones I have read mainly deal with a bump in the night scenario, were as the AR people have a tendency to run the EOTWAWKI scenario. For close quarter a shotgun is a perfectly respectable weapon.
I am all for being prepared and thinking about such things; if we are talking a end of the world "Patriots" then yeah I would like to have my AR and a shit load of ammo with me, but in that end I think it will be a lowly old 22LR and a few bricks of ammo that will help me survive more then any AR could.
Also, so I don't offend any LEOs or Military contractors etc. whos end of the world scenario is LA shoot out or I am going to Iraq and I do not know what is going to happen, then hell yeah, a good quality AR is what you want and need.
P.S. Me and a buddy always talk end of the world shit and what we need to do to be prepared. Passes the time and is fun. Also from a sniper stand point "a 300 win mag from a hunting rifle is going to ruin your day when you are busy trying to snipe back with your AR", from a recent discussion. :D
I'm a big fan of the 12 ga shotgun. I would go so far as to say it's probably the epitome of the multipurpose firearm.
I've never seen anyone get up after being shot with 1 oz of lead. Not true with some other calibers.
With rifle or ghost ring sights I'm good out to ~150 yards with various slugs. You can get alot of lead on target with a good shotgun.
Sidewinder6
07-19-09, 15:10
I'm a big fan of the 12 ga shotgun. I would go so far as to say it's probably the epitome of the multipurpose firearm.
I've never seen anyone get up after being shot with 1 oz of lead. Not true with some other calibers.
With rifle or ghost ring sights I'm good out to ~150 yards with various slugs. You can get alot of lead on target with a good shotgun.
I agree. I think it is a very reliable and versitile firearm. Great gun to bring to a pistol fight. I can understand the comfort that comes from being able to have a higher round capacity but there is something about a .72 cal round that commands respect.
Just like any home project - Get the right tool and practice with it!
The shotgun, the carbine and the handgun all have a place / role in my personal project. Each has it's own learning curve and they do not fit every individauls needs. If you have choices, use them - have the best tool available for the job if you can.
Assuming that you hit them with the slug you are probably right. But, there are also documented cases of people being shot with 00 buck, .357 magnum etc.. multiple times who survived and continued to fight.
I have a tool box. In my toolbox I have alot of different tools and they all serve a purpose. That's how I see it. I confronted someone about 13 years ago with a Remington 870 w/ Surefire set up and he just about crapped himself when I lit him up and jacked a round in the chamber.
Would he have done the same with my AR or AK? I know I would.
I'm a big fan of the 12 ga shotgun. I would go so far as to say it's probably the epitome of the multipurpose firearm.
I've never seen anyone get up after being shot with 1 oz of lead. Not true with some other calibers.
With rifle or ghost ring sights I'm good out to ~150 yards with various slugs. You can get alot of lead on target with a good shotgun.
Failure2Stop
07-20-09, 04:07
There are examples of people continuing to fight after being hit with anything.
As IG said, I have a tool-box, a foundation of solid simple skills through advanced techniques that allow me to efficiently remove a threat. The AR allows me maximum use of my tool-box. The Shotgun, while effective within it's employment envelope, it not as easy to use bilaterally, in unconventional positions, with advanced optics and aiming devices, or white-light without a dedicated fore-end. Most require the use of two hands for mainpulations and operation, though of curse there are methods to get them working, it is inarguably much easier with an AR. The AR offers me a level of precision unmatched by most other semi-auto rifles, let alone shotguns- which can make a big difference in many situations. I also know that I can stuff 5 shots from an M4 into the A zone of an IPSC target in the time it takes most SG users to get 2 slugs off at 25 meters. I also know that I can get a T-Box hit on demand at 50 meters in about 1 second with an AR- I know that I can't with a 1014.
A shotgun can most certainly be applied to many situations and perform as well as an AR, but I think that the raw performance at close range is missing the point.
Mr.Goodtimes
07-20-09, 04:39
A combat shotgun is on my list of things to acquire. I think that in a situation where there are a very limited number of threats, at very close range (0-15yds), where absolute precision isn't paramount, an 18in shot gun is king in firepower.
What Failure2Stop said with the condition being the AR's user regularly practices/trains.
Sidewinder6
07-20-09, 11:29
A shotgun can most certainly be applied to many situations and perform as well as an AR, but I think that the raw performance at close range is missing the point.
Another thing is the 'footprint' of carrying more ammo.
We have come a long way in gun fighting and technology that emphasize the point you made.
For me, the shotgun is nostalgic as much as reliable. Old School so I apoligize for my bias. You can trust shotguns.
Back then, rifles were mainly used on rooftops. Our SG tactical training uncluded 'bouncing bullets' (if any of you remember those days) and a heck of a lot less concern for Rule 4/ collateral damage than today.
We used them on entries along with pistol caliber sub guns if were were expecting force on force.
I have witnessed the damage caused by the .12ga at several distances and loads including vehicles. I respect the round when used properly.
Now all that said, Ive got 3 a piece. Carbines and 12ga. :D
I am not diminishing the value of the M4. But I will say I service my M4's more than my shotguns for reliability.
personally, i love shotguns! especially since, as cryingwolf pointed out, an AR is difficult to use when you might get bullet penetration on your neighbor's house. and nothing says hello like 00 buck.:D i should know, treated my own fair share of shotgun injuries in the E.R. where i work, especially in residency.
but am now thinking of getting a pistol caliber carbine, or maybe a high capacity 22LR, like the GSG, or a ruger1022, for my wife to use. she's an ophthalmologist, with the delicate, surgeon's hands that go with that profession. she hates the bruising her hands get from the shotgun.
i am also thinking of getting an AR soon, but for the use on our farm. at least there, got over 800 yards between me and my nearest neighbor. then, there's the fact that there are communist terrorists i have to worry about.
Uhmm, don't get me wrong. i live in the Philippines, and we do have to worry about such a thing as a 40 year old insurgency in some of the provinces. there are communists, muslim separatists in the far south, and even the Al Qaeda aligned Abu Sayyaf. at the ranges mentioned, AR rules, but for the city, where all i have to worry is the run of the mill criminal, shotguns rule.
Although I wouldn't grab my Anschutz 1411 to investigate a bump in the night, I don't consider myself as having a "toolbox", I'm a recreational shooter. I think most gunowners are as well.
Most real world engagements take place inside of 75 yards. That is well within the range of a shotgun with at least a bead sight, provided the shooter is proficient with it.
As a mulitpurpose/multifacetted weapon I think you'd be hard pressed to beat a modern 12 ga shotgun.
As for ammo "footprint", I'm not in a combat zone. Again, most real world gunfights are over in a few seconds. I'm not looking to pack a couple of ammo cans worth of ammo.
i agree hags. there's a place for each type of firearm, and shotguns will always have a place.
CryingWolf
08-06-09, 19:22
Most real world engagements take place inside of 75 yards. That is well within the range of a shotgun with at least a bead sight, provided the shooter is proficient with it.
As a mulitpurpose/multifacetted weapon I think you'd be hard pressed to beat a modern 12 ga shotgun.
As for ammo "footprint", I'm not in a combat zone. Again, most real world gunfights are over in a few seconds. I'm not looking to pack a couple of ammo cans worth of ammo.
I won't bore you with my "Pete Show" stories but lets just say;
it is 2am
I am in my boxers
and flip flops
holding my shotgun
fumbling with my flashlight
tripping over the lawn mower
Stubbing my toe
in my garage
wondering why I am chasing a "burglar"
which somehow turned into a cat,
when my wife woke me up
from a perfectly good dream
in a nice cozy bed
because she heard a "noise"
This is me in my combat gear yelling at the bad guys come get some.
it's 2:15am
I put my shotgun in the corner
set my flashlight on the night stand
sit on the bed and rub my foot
wife asks "you left the garage open again huh?"
Im a rifleman but If I could only have 1 longarm Im pretty sure itd be a shotgun
I won't bore you with my "Pete Show" stories but lets just say;
it is 2am
I am in my boxers
and flip flops
holding my shotgun
fumbling with my flashlight
tripping over the lawn mower
Stubbing my toe
in my garage
wondering why I am chasing a "burglar"
which somehow turned into a cat,
when my wife woke me up
from a perfectly good dream
in a nice cozy bed
because she heard a "noise"
This is me in my combat gear yelling at the bad guys come get some.
it's 2:15am
I put my shotgun in the corner
set my flashlight on the night stand
sit on the bed and rub my foot
wife asks "you left the garage open again huh?"
:D nice one cryingwolf
I would consider a shotgun viable for home defense if I didnt have to comply with a 18.5" barrel law. Cut that in half then we can discuss a shotgun for home defense.:D
I would consider a shotgun viable for home defense if I didnt have to comply with a 18.5" barrel law. Cut that in half then we can discuss a shotgun for home defense.:D
fortunately, the law here is lax on how long a barrel should be:) well, i guess they should be lax, as officially only long arms allowed for sale to civilians from gun stores here is restricted to 22LR and 12 gauge.
only LE and Military are allowed to buy any other calibers. but then of course, there's no law prohibiting these guys from selling their guns second hand to everybody else.....:) and, if you have a gun club certificate, you could get ARs for 3-gun competitions
lanceriley
08-08-09, 09:05
Id go for my pistol... and fight my way to my shotgun.
the Ar in my opinion would come out when there is a direct threat. 4-5 people banging on your gate. but for bump in the night. shotgun will do.
I'll just repeat what I said in the last shotgun thread: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=23296
As many of the previous posts note, there are multiple factors that will play a role in determining which weapon might be the best choice for home defense.
From a pure wound trauma standpoint on a shot against unarmored soft tissue, a close range hit from a 12 ga shotgun using buckshot will create more damage than any 5.56 mm projectile; it is for this reason that Dr. Fackler has expressed his preference for 12 ga buckshot over 5.56 mm for close range defensive use. Compared to pistol caliber weapons, virtually any shoulder fired carbine caliber weapon or 12 ga shotgun will prove superior from a wound ballistic standpoint. Below are the wound profiles comparing several weapons that might be used for home defense:
http://i459.photobucket.com/albums/qq319/DocGKR/HomecarbineWP.jpg?t=1232698319
Note that the M1 carbine, 16” barrel AR15, 18” barrel shotgun with a “youth” stock, and 16” barrel lever action carbine are all approximately the same length and offer the equivalent ease of maneuvering, so bickering about weapon size is a somewhat moot point when comparing weapons of this type. From an ergonomic and weapon manipulation standpoint, the AR15 is far superior to the other weapons, followed by the M1 carbine, and then distantly trailed by the shotgun and lever action carbine. Likewise, the AR15 is the most modular and allows the easiest mounting of various accessories. Unfortunately, AR15’s are also usually more expensive. In addition, in some locales, AR15’s are more highly regulated and/or feared than other less “scary” looking weapons; in those areas, an AR15’s “military” appearance may prejudice some LE officers who respond to a lethal force incident, as well as the DA and jury… If living in a state with asinine legal restrictions on firearms regulations or a liberal “weapon phobic” region, a PC, plain-jane appearing shoulder fired weapon that does not scare the metaphorical sheep might be prudent…
In an indoors static defensive role against a single violent assailant who was advancing on me, a 12 ga. shotgun would be my first choice. However, if there are multiple criminals assaulting me or in a time of domestic unrest and upheaval with potentially large crowds of hostile individuals roaming about, or in situations that would require movement outdoors, then I would far prefer a magazine fed shoulder fired weapon capable of greater range, faster reloading, and greater ammunition capacity than a shotgun.
Finally, there is the matter of weapon familiarity and training. In 20+ years of military and LE use, I have fired far more rounds of ammunition, had more training with, and greater experience using AR15 based rifles than any other type of shoulder fired weapon. And while I have also trained with and used other shoulder fired weapons including MP5’s, M14’s/M1A’s, shotguns, bolt guns, and the odd M1 Garand, M1 carbine, and lever gun—baring legal restrictions, in a chaotic, stress filled situation, I would feel most comfortable and confident using an AR15 based weapon due to my previous training and experience.
I would consider a shotgun viable for home defense if I didnt have to comply with a 18.5" barrel law. Cut that in half then we can discuss a shotgun for home defense.:D
Yeah, on my to get list is an SBRd Shotgun, A 14" scattergun is perfect IMO
thanks docGKR for the visuals:) now boys and girls, you know that you should be kind to Mr. Shotgun....:D
Regarding the "rack" sound of a shotgun, or the visual appearance of a SG as a deterrent . . .
Realistically, most SG users store the shotgun in Cond 3 and will make it Cond 1 promptly upon retrieving the SG.
After all, confronting a threat with a empty chamber is a bad idea.
So, if the "rack" occurs out of the presence (or hearing range) of the threat, there is no audible deterrent effect.
Further, in a low light scenario, what is the likelihood the threat can see that you have a SG, and thus be visually deterred?
FWIW, in many non-low light situations when I have used a M4 type carbine vs situations when I have used a SG, the M4 produces many more fear driven comments from both onlookers and bad guys than the SG has, leading me to strongly believe that the visual deterrent of the M4 is much more than the SG.
And lastly, I recently put an experienced, though average skill level co-worker (LEO) through two moderate stress scenarios in full light, involving a suprise scenario (active shooter response), first using a M16A1 (converted to semi only) , and then after re-arranging the targets, a bead sighted 870.
Care was taken to keep the targets at a similar level of difficulty.
I would argue that the stress level was higher in the first scenario (employing the rifle), as in the 2d scenario, the student had a very good idea of what to expect.
This student is a full time LEO and has about 5 yrs experience with the 870, and about 2 yrs experience with the M16/AR15 system. In addition to basic user level courses with both, he's completed annual refresher training with both. This person particularly likes the 870 and considers himself good with it. He has the option to carry both long guns.
Rifle ammo was 55 grn ball. Shotgun ammo was Hornady Low-Recoil 1 oz slugs.
4 threat targets, 4 non threat targets (IPSC cardboard). Ranges varied from 20 yds to 5 yds.
The non-threats were in close proximity to the threats.
Results with the rifle: 1 nonthreat target hit (he fired very quickly at 20 yds, at angle). All threat targets neutralized with multiple good hits each (A, B, D zone).
Results with SG: all 4 nonthreat targets hit. Misses and peripheral hits on the threat targets.
As this 870 holds only 6 rounds in the magazine, the shooter of course ran dry. He chose to reload the SG rather than transition to the HG, and while attempting to reload the SG from the side saddle, dropped several slugs on the ground. Further, reloading the SG (due to the dropped slugs, and fine motor skills degredation in general) took a long time and exposed him to potentially getting shot by the threat(s).
(in prior such training, I've seen students load slugs or buck into the ejection port and the magazine backwards, which renders the SG inoperable until I can take it apart to get the backwards catrdidge out of the magazine. Students will also induce stoppages by short-stroking the SG)
In an active shooter situation like VA Tech, on average, every 3 seconds an additional victim is shot. Time matters.
Note that I didn't provide him with a low light scenario. Working a shotgun with a handheld light is of course much more difficult than a rifle with a handheld light (yes, mounted lights are preferred, but are not always the reality).
As a result of his recent experience, this student has decided to use the rifle as his only long gun.
YMMV
I'll just repeat what I said in the last shotgun thread:
Doc, thanks for your always informative posts. I am curious about the shotgun visual. Why is there no temporary cavity? I would have thought each pellet would create its own. :confused:
Kevin
FWIW, in many non-low light situations when I have used a M4 type carbine vs situations when I have used a SG, the M4 produces many more fear driven comments from both onlookers and bad guys than the SG has, leading me to strongly believe that the visual deterrent of the M4 is much more than the SG.
I've noticed that the M-4 and MP-5 get the same response from badguys that the SG does, but like you said, responses will vary wherever you go. On a funny note, we arrested a fugitive a few weeks back at night. He later told us he didn't have any idea there was an M-4 pointed at him. Seems the X-300 did its job quite well. He might also have been distracted by the large bite dog straining its leash nearby. ;)
"He might also have been distracted by the large bite dog straining its leash nearby"
That usually gets the point across in a way even a mope can understand. :)
DocGKR has very eloquently described the philosophy that I follow. The only problem I see is that in many scenarios, one doesn't know how many and what type of adversary they will face. If I am pretty confident that I'm only facing one or two amateur garden variety shitbags breaking into my house, the 870 is probably what I'd want. If it's an unknown threat, unknown number situation, the carbine might be a better choice.
ColdDeadHands
08-12-09, 23:02
I like shotguns and always will own at least one.
Don't forget about the Zombies, as proven in resident evil and other zombie movies, a shotgun is the best tool to kill them by blowing of their head. :D
Each pellet is pretty much just crushing tissue and are generally going too slowly to create much temporary stretch effects.
Each pellet is pretty much just crushing tissue and are generally going too slowly to create much temporary stretch effects.
true, DocGKR. i would like to point out to our fellow enthusiasts here that in a shotgun's case, since your getting hit by more than 1 pellet, your getting a lot of damage! i have seen corpses without livers, kidneys- hell! i had one without the heart!- all because they tangled with a guy with a shotgun.....
BLACK LION
08-19-09, 14:44
Lots of good points made here...
The "tactical trio" includes the shotgun and I believe no good man or woman alike should forsake themselves the many benefits of owning one.
No need to get into its merits or lack thereof as that horse gets beat fat too often...
I have no preference as to "which" rig to choose as there are only 3 choices and I am confident in my proficiency in all of them... I do rotate thier use and carry as I dont believe in favoring one to carry or one to have in the car or next to the bed... they all get to play regardless....
I own and use 1 shotgun in the form of a Benelli supernova "tactical" ... It is set up for a multi purpose role since it now holds 9 standard size shells and 13 mini shells as well as a set of asdjustable ghost ring sights, a pistol grip/stock combo and an 18" smooth bore barrel... I understand where it is useful and the minute instances where it is not "optimal".... I chose a pump action for many reasons than dont need any elaboration.
I am set up to bug out with all 3 of my rigs and the shotgun has a scabbard that is attached to the back right shoulder of my plate carrier ... if not there, then it is in the drag bag with my .50 upper.....
Regardless, nothing says lovin like 100 pellets on target @ 1300 fps all with a chance to win... likewise nothing says loving like 500+ grains of destruction on target at 1600+ fps.....
I personally, wont be without my 12ga shotgun in any event...
Alaskapopo
08-20-09, 00:07
I really like them & wish more people would consider them for the home if they aren't going to practice with the pistol and combat rifle regularly. To me, they are a little more idiot proof for the novice & folks who have no intention of range time and just want one gun that will never leave the home.
For an all around gun guy who likes them all....I'm happy with whatever is closest. I won't pass a 1911 or 12ga just to grab an ar.
I disagree. As an instructor I have found that officers have a far harder time qualficing with the shotgun vs rifles and pistols. You have more manipulations to do with a shotgun, more recoil and less ammo.
Pat
Alaskapopo
08-20-09, 00:08
true, DocGKR. i would like to point out to our fellow enthusiasts here that in a shotgun's case, since your getting hit by more than 1 pellet, your getting a lot of damage! i have seen corpses without livers, kidneys- hell! i had one without the heart!- all because they tangled with a guy with a shotgun.....
Same can be said of any one hit in the heart, kidney or liver with a good .223 round.
pat
I disagree. As an instructor I have found that officers have a far harder time qualficing with the shotgun vs rifles and pistols. You have more manipulations to do with a shotgun, more recoil and less ammo.
Pat
I like SGs but my experience (as a LE trainer) squares with Pat's.
Every time we get guys/gals on the range with a SG, there is a relearing curve. These same shooters, have far fewer problems with handguns and ARs.
SGs are MORE complicated to operate than a carbine (loading/reloading/unloading steps).
SGs have MORE user induced stoppages than carbines (short stroking).
SGs are prone to user confusion regarding ammo (cases of shooters confusing buck for slug, less lethal for lethal, buck/slug for breaching rounds, etc.)
SGs require users employing buck to guess distances and apply knowledge of how their SG patterns (you did pattern your SG, right?) at various distances, in real time during fluid, rapidly changing events.
SGs loaded with buck are slow to perform slug select drill
SGs are slow to fire multiple shots from prone position
SGs are slow to engage multiple threats
SG users can load the shells BACKWARDS, especially under stress and even more so in low light. Requires the weapon be disassembled to fix it
SG shells are often fumbled/dropped in a non-stress environment, and even more so when under stress, even more so if the user is wearing gloves, and even more so in low light.
SGs are extremely slow to shoot and/or reload 1 handed
SGs (870 type) are slower to disengage the safety and fire than a AR type rifle/carbine
SGs have "healthy" recoil, which causes shooters to tense the support hand, causing projectiles to often miss the target left (for a RH shooter)
A SG is extremely difficult to shoot when using a handheld white light. A AR is is not very difficult, at all. (Yes, everyone should have mounted white lights, but not everyone does)
SGs users had best hope that their bad guys are not wearing body armor
SG users, should the threat not be squared up to them, will have a narrow target, which many of their pellets are not going to hit.
SG users have to consider that barrier penetration with buck is not good.
If a SG turns you on, then by all means, rock on, and train hard to develop a high degree of skill.
But know that very similar to revolvers, there are some serious drawbacks to the SG.
I see SGs as best employed in the roles of breaching, beanbags, or XREP.
YMMV
I disagree. As an instructor I have found that officers have a far harder time qualficing with the shotgun vs rifles and pistols. You have more manipulations to do with a shotgun, more recoil and less ammo.
Pat
i agree with Alaskapopo. have seen many novices make the mistake of thinking the shotgun is similar to a rifle....then the recoil gets them:)
Same can be said of any one hit in the heart, kidney or liver with a good .223 round.
pat
there i disagree with you, alaskapopo. have been a trauma doc for more than 10 years now. there wasn't a week that went by during my training that i wouldn't field a gunshot wound. true, at long range, the 223 is king. but close and dirty, shotguns are nasty!
at short range, with a 223, you would still be able to recognize the tissue of an internal organ- or even repair the said organ. with shotgun blasts, the tissue is macerated into terrible shape. good luck in treating the guy!
Alaskapopo
08-20-09, 06:18
there i disagree with you, alaskapopo. have been a trauma doc for more than 10 years now. there wasn't a week that went by during my training that i wouldn't field a gunshot wound. true, at long range, the 223 is king. but close and dirty, shotguns are nasty!
at short range, with a 223, you would still be able to recognize the tissue of an internal organ- or even repair the said organ. with shotgun blasts, the tissue is macerated into terrible shape. good luck in treating the guy!
I have not seen that many gun shot wounds in person other than suicide head wounds. So you have me there.
Pat
ColdDeadHands
08-20-09, 06:34
I like SGs but my experience (as a LE trainer) squares with Pat's.
Every time we get guys/gals on the range with a SG, there is a relearing curve. These same shooters, have far fewer problems with handguns and ARs.
SGs are MORE complicated to operate than a carbine (loading/reloading/unloading steps).
SGs have MORE user induced stoppages than carbines (short stroking).
SGs are prone to user confusion regarding ammo (cases of shooters confusing buck for slug, less lethal for lethal, buck/slug for breaching rounds, etc.) N/A for Home Defense Users
SGs require users employing buck to guess distances and apply knowledge of how their SG patterns (you did pattern your SG, right?) at various distances, in real time during fluid, rapidly changing events.
SGs loaded with buck are slow to perform slug select drill N/A for Home Defense Users
SGs are slow to fire multiple shots from prone position N/A for Home Defense Users
SGs are slow to engage multiple threats
SG users can load the shells BACKWARDS, especially under stress and even more so in low light. Requires the weapon be disassembled to fix it N/A for Home Defense Users
SG shells are often fumbled/dropped in a non-stress environment, and even more so when under stress, even more so if the user is wearing gloves, and even more so in low light. N/A for Home Defense Users
SGs are extremely slow to shoot and/or reload 1 handed
SGs (870 type) are slower to disengage the safety and fire than a AR type rifle/carbine
SGs have "healthy" recoil, which causes shooters to tense the support hand, causing projectiles to often miss the target left (for a RH shooter)
A SG is extremely difficult to shoot when using a handheld white light. A AR is is not very difficult, at all. (Yes, everyone should have mounted white lights, but not everyone does)
SGs users had best hope that their bad guys are not wearing body armor Depends on where you aim at
SG users, should the threat not be squared up to them, will have a narrow target, which many of their pellets are not going to hit.
SG users have to consider that barrier penetration with buck is not good.
If a SG turns you on, then by all means, rock on, and train hard to develop a high degree of skill.
But know that very similar to revolvers, there are some serious drawbacks to the SG.
I see SGs as best employed in the roles of breaching, beanbags, or XREP.
YMMV
There, fixed it for you...most of these points are not applicable for the regular Joe. I can see your point but for HD use somebody will pick up a shotgun ( hopefully loaded with a good load like Federal 00 with Flite Control) take the safety off and maybe fire 3 or 4 shots. Most likely there isn't a need to reload.
Now in a LE situation it can be very different...
Alaskapopo
08-20-09, 06:48
There, fixed it for you...most of these points are not applicable for the regular Joe. I can see your point but for HD use somebody will pick up a shotgun ( hopefully loaded with a good load like Federal 00 with Flite Control) take the safety off and maybe fire 3 or 4 shots. Most likely there isn't a need to reload.
Now in a LE situation it can be very different...
You are planning on the home defense situation being a very simple easy to fix problem. But its not always the case. You may be the victim of a home invasion and need a lot more than 3 or 4 rounds. Plan for the worst hope for the best and deal with what you get. Reloading is not a NA for home defense. Nor is prone shooting. Heck its also good to have slugs handy where I live as bears are a real issue.
Pat
ColdDeadHands
08-20-09, 07:06
You are planning on the home defense situation being a very simple easy to fix problem. But its not always the case. You may be the victim of a home invasion and need a lot more than 3 or 4 rounds. Plan for the worst hope for the best and deal with what you get. Reloading is not a NA for home defense. Nor is prone shooting. Heck its also good to have slugs handy where I live as bears are a real issue.
Pat
When I take my 870 out to shoot I train reloading on the move, also have some slugs in my stock. I'm a gun guy & I like to be as proficient as I can with the ones I own but I still think that for most people, if they know how to manipulate the action, the safety and the trigger, the SG is an excellent HD Weapon.
I disagree. As an instructor I have found that officers have a far harder time qualficing with the shotgun vs rifles and pistols. You have more manipulations to do with a shotgun, more recoil and less ammo.
Pat
Guys, read my post....it was not about qualifying or passing a test for an leo...If you want to debate the merits of the 'dedicated gun enthusiest' and what weapon is best, that is another story.
Shotguns are not rocket science to operate....good grief, pull the bolt back and shoot.
My wife just doesn't give a rats ass about that nonsense and wants something available when I'm not home and you do not want to face her benelli. A shotgun imo is the best do it all at home gun for someone who is 'not' going to take the time to head to the range and get familiar with a bunch of options. Scatterguns with clay loads / birdshot can be handled by anyone with minimal effort. Studies show for the average home invasion you have 3 shots fired. She can't hit crap with a pistol but don't screw with her if the scatter gun is available.
You really think a 20ga or 12ga with a 1oz load and 2 3/4 dram is going to knock the shooter to a point where no 2nd shot can get on tartget?? Quit making your opinion fact for all of us who have gone through the drill....it's getting old.
The benelli's holds the same # of rounds as my 1911. Guess I better get a glock?? Gotta get past the alarm and two big dogs too.....she's not worried about reloading but does have a 442 if the belly gun is needed.
carry on :rolleyes:
My wife just doesn't give a rats ass about that nonsense and wants something available when I'm not home and you do not want to face her benelli.
I'm a "gun guy" and not even I want to deal with the Benelli manual of arms.
Running a pump gun is simple in theory, but if you've ever taken a shotgun class you'll see people screwing the simplest things up, left and right. I mean really basic shit like not running the bolt after a shot and then trying to shoot again.
I don't think there's one "right answer" for the best gun for a non-dedicated user, and likewise I'm not convinced that an 870 or similar is a hands down favorite. I think a good argument could be made for a simple pistol like a Glock, or even a full size revolver.
my benelli is an m1 field with the majic bolt & an extension I can put on in the off season....pull it back and go bang & it cannot jam if you hit the mag release.
Wifey hunts doves and whitewings at times, so it's 2nd nature and what is best for her particular siutation. Maybe cuz I grew up and shoot more scatterguns year round, but I find them more idiot proof for the person who is not going to get into what we do with a variety of guns and do a lot of shooting.
I still recomend them for the one gun at home type person.
For the rest of us who like all guns, it really doesn't matter to me which one I grab in the middle of the night. I'm an average joe and not going to have the scarface attack.
I think we are on different pages when classes are involved. Most people who want one gun for the home will not even break the damn thing in and I think certain shotguns are best for these folks. Hell, they would be luck to have more than 2 boxes of shells. I understand opinions vary.
BLACK LION
08-20-09, 12:02
Some good points... definately some things to chew on...
I for one, should not need to empty 9 full size shells into a threat(s)... If I was ever in a situation where I needed to it would most likely be a secondary or tertiary rig and my primary should be up or back up before it goes "click" ...
Also, urban/roll over prone or supine would be more ideal over prone when using a shotgun.
Follow up shots and shooting multiple targets is not difficult if you train to do it... I see some of the things mentioned may have more to do with the person not being squared away behind thier rig and thier gear wether its joe schmoe or joe socom....
Trigger time helps and so does dry time... I expect mistakes from people who keep thier rig in the trunk or in the safe or under the bed... But people who actually train to fight and kill if necessary with thier shotguns are more likely to be successful when put to the test...
There is also more gear out there to aide in success and cut down on mistakes...
It also depends on how realistic and practical you are...
I like SGs but my experience (as a LE trainer) squares with Pat's.
Every time we get guys/gals on the range with a SG, there is a relearing curve. These same shooters, have far fewer problems with handguns and ARs.
SGs are MORE complicated to operate than a carbine (loading/reloading/unloading steps).
SGs have MORE user induced stoppages than carbines (short stroking).
SGs are prone to user confusion regarding ammo (cases of shooters confusing buck for slug, less lethal for lethal, buck/slug for breaching rounds, etc.)
SGs require users employing buck to guess distances and apply knowledge of how their SG patterns (you did pattern your SG, right?) at various distances, in real time during fluid, rapidly changing events.
SGs loaded with buck are slow to perform slug select drill
SGs are slow to fire multiple shots from prone position
SGs are slow to engage multiple threats
SG users can load the shells BACKWARDS, especially under stress and even more so in low light. Requires the weapon be disassembled to fix it
SG shells are often fumbled/dropped in a non-stress environment, and even more so when under stress, even more so if the user is wearing gloves, and even more so in low light.
SGs are extremely slow to shoot and/or reload 1 handed
SGs (870 type) are slower to disengage the safety and fire than a AR type rifle/carbine
SGs have "healthy" recoil, which causes shooters to tense the support hand, causing projectiles to often miss the target left (for a RH shooter)
A SG is extremely difficult to shoot when using a handheld white light. A AR is is not very difficult, at all. (Yes, everyone should have mounted white lights, but not everyone does)
SGs users had best hope that their bad guys are not wearing body armor
SG users, should the threat not be squared up to them, will have a narrow target, which many of their pellets are not going to hit.
SG users have to consider that barrier penetration with buck is not good.
If a SG turns you on, then by all means, rock on, and train hard to develop a high degree of skill.
But know that very similar to revolvers, there are some serious drawbacks to the SG.
I see SGs as best employed in the roles of breaching, beanbags, or XREP.
YMMV
Let's face it, most LEOs aren't "shooters". Most LEOs I run into simply qualify and that's it. I've seen ARs stowed incorrectly in specially built trunk racks so I would expect the SG to be alien to those LEOs.
The SG is loud, big, obnoxious, and most are heavier than sidearms or carbines. Most people don't commit to the disipline, time and practice it takes to become proficient with SGs.
One last thing, they aren't very PC anymore. The sight of a big black SG is intimidating and not good for community PR. I know that's why a few local departments have gone to a carbine of one sort or another.
Whether it's less than lethal or lethal I am a big fan of the SG.
Let's face it, most LEOs aren't "shooters". Most LEOs I run into simply qualify and that's it. I've seen ARs stowed incorrectly in specially built trunk racks so I would expect the SG to be alien to those LEOs.
The SG is loud, big, obnoxious, and most are heavier than sidearms or carbines. Most people don't commit to the disipline, time and practice it takes to become proficient with SGs.
One last thing, they aren't very PC anymore. The sight of a big black SG is intimidating and not good for community PR. I know that's why a few local departments have gone to a carbine of one sort or another.
Whether it's less than lethal or lethal I am a big fan of the SG.
About LEOS not being shooters, its sad, but true. here, the government just ran an evaluation course for LEOs in cooperation with the Philippine Practical Shooting Association. 85% of cops and NBI agents FAILED the course! those who passed were usually SWAT or had previously been assigned to SWAT. it seems that once they qualified, they just strapped on the gun and never practiced even just simple marksmanship.
although a few police precincts still have shotguns in their armories, there are fewer of them. i once asked my wife's cousin, himself a highly decorated colonel/senior superintendent of the PNP about why they don't use more shotguns. his answer was that it was more due to 'collateral damage'. he cited a bank heist done in the late eighties in manila. a group of bank robbers tried to hit one of the largest banks here just when the monthly salaries and yearly bonuses of over 1000 employees of the largest mall in manila were being placed in the vault. this led to a dramatic shootout between 12 guards( 5 in the bank, 4 of the armored van, and 3 of the mall) and about a similar number of suspects. the guards had shotguns vs ARs and Uzis for the suspects. the guards were able to hold off the robbers, but in the end, over 30 passers-by had been hit in the exchange, mostly by 12G buckshot. it was this encounter, plus several more like it, as well as criminals getting longer arms, that led to the cops here deciding to get ARs and SMGs.
i don't know whether i posted this here or on another thread under the shotgun topic, but just last year, my parents where a victim of a home invasion on their farm last year. it turned out into one hell of a fight.
they have an aquaculture farm in another province several hours away from the capital. they grow fish, crabs, and shrimps/prawns. its an isolated place, and the cops have to get a boat and trundle 15-20 minutes down river to get to the farm. no roads there, and if your on foot, you have to go through a swamp. the robbers decided to hit them the night after they had just sold the harvest. dad has a mossberg 500, and the farm's guard had an armscor shotgun. from the evidence gathered, there were 5 men trying to get in. in the end, my dad and the guard each shot out 6 shots, and were using a jericho 941 and an armscor 38spl revolver, respectively. mom backed them as best she could with her lady smith, as well as screaming for help on her cellphone.
all in all, the encounter lasted maybe 2-3 minutes. at the end, dad killed one of them, and there were blood trails leading away from the house. the cops arrived about 10minutes after the firefight started.
it was hard to hear my mom screaming for help on my cellphone in the middle of the night, and know i couldn't do anything about it. i was at my own home, 3 hours away. by the time i got there, the CSI had already done their job and mom and our help were hosing the ground outside the house. in the end, my dad got another shotgun (for my mom), and decided to get a third magazine for his jericho.
in this case, Alsakapopo is right. sometimes, shit happens.......and you should be prepared
Alaskapopo
08-21-09, 15:51
Guys, read my post....it was not about qualifying or passing a test for an leo...If you want to debate the merits of the 'dedicated gun enthusiest' and what weapon is best, that is another story.
Shotguns are not rocket science to operate....good grief, pull the bolt back and shoot.
My wife just doesn't give a rats ass about that nonsense and wants something available when I'm not home and you do not want to face her benelli. A shotgun imo is the best do it all at home gun for someone who is 'not' going to take the time to head to the range and get familiar with a bunch of options. Scatterguns with clay loads / birdshot can be handled by anyone with minimal effort. Studies show for the average home invasion you have 3 shots fired. She can't hit crap with a pistol but don't screw with her if the scatter gun is available.
You really think a 20ga or 12ga with a 1oz load and 2 3/4 dram is going to knock the shooter to a point where no 2nd shot can get on tartget?? Quit making your opinion fact for all of us who have gone through the drill....it's getting old.
The benelli's holds the same # of rounds as my 1911. Guess I better get a glock?? Gotta get past the alarm and two big dogs too.....she's not worried about reloading but does have a 442 if the belly gun is needed.
carry on :rolleyes:
With respect. Recoil does affect how well a shooter will perform. You can dismiss it if you want but it is a factor. Capacity is also an issue. The 1911 is a great sidearm but I never carry one without spare ammo. In the home a spare magazine is always next to my 1911. I never said my opinion was fact anymore than you did.
Pat
With respect. Recoil does affect how well a shooter will perform. You can dismiss it if you want but it is a factor. Capacity is also an issue. The 1911 is a great sidearm but I never carry one without spare ammo. In the home a spare magazine is always next to my 1911. I never said my opinion was fact anymore than you did.
Pat
your posts were on classes...mine were on ding-gongs finding the pointy end and pray for life over the bad guys.... get the wifey to a gun class and i got your back.;)
ps: super cozy with the officers and one mag too.
Alaskapopo
08-22-09, 04:58
I'm a "gun guy" and not even I want to deal with the Benelli manual of arms.
Running a pump gun is simple in theory, but if you've ever taken a shotgun class you'll see people screwing the simplest things up, left and right. I mean really basic shit like not running the bolt after a shot and then trying to shoot again.
I don't think there's one "right answer" for the best gun for a non-dedicated user, and likewise I'm not convinced that an 870 or similar is a hands down favorite. I think a good argument could be made for a simple pistol like a Glock, or even a full size revolver.
I feel that a handgun should be the last choice for home defense. A rifle or a shotgun should be considered a first choice due to greater terminal performance and greater hit probability.
Pat
personally, i think its more shock and awe. finding out your up against a shotgun makes people think twice.
Alaskapopo
08-24-09, 05:31
personally, i think its more shock and awe. finding out your up against a shotgun makes people think twice.
I don't think that bad guys give a crap what you are armed with so long as you are armed.
Pat
hahaha...that may be true. i know that would make me think twice:)
It's nice to read that many of you guys are thinking the same way I am.
My Smitty AR is a fine gun but there is basically no direction that I can shoot that I wouldn't have my neighbors as a background. 9mm handguns are the same problem. Hence my interest in SG's.
In another thread over in AR Technical Discussion I asked about overpenetration and perhaps my double barrel would be better for HD. Of cource I was thoroughly flame'd. That convinced me to look at Remmy 870 tacticals with #4 buckshot and a mounted Surefire G2L light. So that's where my head is at the moment on the issue of home defense.
For a SHTF situation, another 3 mile Island, or race riot, or post flood looting then the AR becomes a valuable tool. But for bump in the night things I think an 870 might be the answer.
What do you all think of Remmy 1100's? The 3 gun folks seem to like them. Yes I know they're more expensive.
kaiservontexas
08-25-09, 18:03
I own an 1100. It is fun to shoot. I had to replace the O-rings. I had fun shooting it when they were corroded. It let me practice malfunction drills as sometimes it would cycle and sometimes it won't. Needless to say I am good at clearing it. They can be ammo picky depending, but mine has no problem with anything as of yet, including low recoil Federal 00 buckshot.
My 870 is my go to shotgun. I am not going to wait to wrack the slide when I see the perp(s). I am going to wrack it the second I think there is a problem. No sense is getting popped by a handgun because I had not gotten the shotgun ready. Thankfully, I have not had to go through this and hope I never will, but it is nice to have the tools in the toolbox.
Alaskapopo
08-25-09, 18:30
It's nice to read that many of you guys are thinking the same way I am.
My Smitty AR is a fine gun but there is basically no direction that I can shoot that I wouldn't have my neighbors as a background. 9mm handguns are the same problem. Hence my interest in SG's.
In another thread over in AR Technical Discussion I asked about overpenetration and perhaps my double barrel would be better for HD. Of cource I was thoroughly flame'd. That convinced me to look at Remmy 870 tacticals with #4 buckshot and a mounted Surefire G2L light. So that's where my head is at the moment on the issue of home defense.
For a SHTF situation, another 3 mile Island, or race riot, or post flood looting then the AR becomes a valuable tool. But for bump in the night things I think an 870 might be the answer.
What do you all think of Remmy 1100's? The 3 gun folks seem to like them. Yes I know they're more expensive.
You neighbors are safer if you use the AR it has less penetration in common building materials than pistol rounds do and about the same as buckshot.
Pat
I keep my .45 (FBI load) on a little table by the bed. She has a J-frame .357. The plan is that we'll wait for them to come to us, by which time I should have my 1954 M-97 loaded with #4 buckshot and she'll have the M4 with a beta c-mag. Should we fail, no body can say we didn't try. The 97 is a very fast gun-just stroke hard and slam-fire away. As a take-down model (with a pistol grip made from another stock ,it makes a wonderful travel gun - carried it many tens of thousands of miles when I was driving OTR. I think the next addition to the home defense kit will be an 1100 with a magazine extension. They've been around a long time and are pretty reliable. With a 10million cp searchlight plugged in, intruders will find their way to the party well lit.
There are pro's and con's to all invasion scenarios. and good solid doors with Medeco locks are the easiest places to start as prevention points. Windows are "iffier", but 3/8" plexiglass will take quite a beating. As to "resistance tools". my preference would be a SAW for her and me, but Iowa doesn't allow full autos except for class 3 dealers and LE. Those who have any constructive comments to offer me will find their advice much appreciated. Oh, I also have 2 .44 mag's for backup too. And no, I don't count on hearing anything for a while if the worst should come, which hopefully it never will.
Alaskapopo
08-25-09, 20:13
I keep my .45 (FBI load)
The FBI has used a few different 45 acp loads in its history including the Golden Saber and the Hydra Shock. Which do you speak of?
I own an 1100. It is fun to shoot. I had to replace the O-rings. I had fun shooting it when they were corroded. It let me practice malfunction drills as sometimes it would cycle and sometimes it won't. Needless to say I am good at clearing it. They can be ammo picky depending, but mine has no problem with anything as of yet, including low recoil Federal 00 buckshot.
My 870 is my go to shotgun. I am not going to wait to wrack the slide when I see the perp(s). I am going to wrack it the second I think there is a problem. No sense is getting popped by a handgun because I had not gotten the shotgun ready. Thankfully, I have not had to go through this and hope I never will, but it is nice to have the tools in the toolbox.
I can say with confidence that the Beretta 390 is the gun you want for taking abuse. Now, this is from several guides who do nothing but shoot birds all day, every day in mexico and argentina. They say the original self cleaning 390 is without a doubt the most reliable after trying them all with multiple chances....i have no idea if any accessories will work for the combat class application, but the design / action is the nutz.
I'm still a benelli man cuz it's never let me down and the 1100 lt 20ga is a must shoot for any scattergun guy before you croak.
I would take a SBS over an AR for home defense any day.
Alaskapopo
08-26-09, 12:41
I prefer a carbine. Its a lot more versatile in a gun fight than a shotgun. But both are good tools.
Pat
The SxS is a good throw away gun for the first two shots, and I keep one loaded in the safe along with the 97 Win 12 gauge. One would think that would drive off the worst of scum, but you just never know. So with an M4 with a c-mag, I can control the entry and hallway for quite a while. To each his own and whatever he's comfortable with. The only fair fight is the one you win. As Bill Jordan said--there ain't no second place winners in a gunfight.
Alaskapopo
09-07-09, 14:56
My favorite saying is. If you find yourself in a fair fight your tactics suck.
Pat
goodoleboy
09-08-09, 20:54
I'll tell you, there aren't too many shoulder-fired weapons that can rival a 12 gauge with an open choke at 15 yards (unless it's a 10 gauge). In my home, the weapons that remain loaded and within one-arms length are a 870 Remington riot gun and a .45 acp pistol.
I figure that if I'm half asleep in a dark house, I want something that I can aim in the direction of the noise (North, South, East, West), pump off a few rounds, and feel confident that the threat has been eliminated.
The ultimate test is: "If I had to be shot with any common weapon, what would I have as my absolute, last choice if my goal were to survive?" For me, that is a shotgun with buck-shot.
That pretty much sums it up (at distances less than 25 yards).
Dan Goodwin
09-08-09, 22:11
Same basic choices for my HD battery, GoodOleBoy, but from a legal standpoint you might be better off:
Trying to WAKE all the way up,
Using a white light to SEE what's making the noise,
Servicing as necessary with AIMED fire,
Then BE confident the "treat" has been stopped.
Just sayin'...
SGT D USMC
10-03-09, 15:05
I don't like shotguns, so I've spent my time with other weapons, However being old I have certian stubborn opinions about shot guns.
1. shotguns were meant to get on target fast and are some of the most natural weapons to point. ( try hitting quail with a slow pointing weapon)
However when modified for defense one of the first things done is often adding rifle sights. Even with a ghost ring appature this is slower than just a front bead. (how could you possiblely aline the target, the front sight, (if you are a trained marksman at all you will take time at this point to get a sharp focus on the front sight) and the rear site. This is never as fast as just alineing the target, and the bead. when I explain this to shotgunners they look at me kind of strange and say that they have to have the rifle sights to make long shots with slugs.
2. Then comes ammo capacity, or add the extended tube, maybe add the extra rounds via a stock elastic ammo holder, then maybe after seeing how great the weapon is becoming , add the sling with belt loops to hold even more ammo. More weight equal slower on target.
3. loading, with few exceptions shot guns are loaded 1 round at a time this means that most people will have to take their eyes out of the fight when loading.
I was a young Marine radio operator in Vietnam. We had some rem. 870s with metal upper hand guards and normal length magazine tubes. our ammo was 00buck in brass cases, Not a mag load, but I think 9 pellets and equivalent to a high brass load.
We ran into about 30 VC in arvn uniforms in relative dense cover, easy to walk thru but vison was limited to usualy 50 ft or so. the point squad had practicaly merged with them thinking they were arvns when they begain firing. The second squad ran straight into fight and the third squad flanked from the right and it was over real quick. We did take several casualtys. I had called for a medicac and was waiting for their approch to mark the LZ and the plt. leader a young Lt. (who was with the point squad when they made contact) was standing next to me holding a 12 ga.
I ask him how he liked it, He said that he would never carry it again. I said that I thought that it would have been good at close range? He said that it was fast but he said at one VC went down and came up again and there were some that did not go down, but he said that the reason that he didn't like it was reloading. He said that he thought that he was almost empty and it only held 2 more rounds and he later thought that he was almost full and it ran dry, he said that was his fault. but the worst part was getting one round out and taking his eyes out of the game while loading it with lots of action real close all around him.
I think that shot guns have their place, and thats up close and fast, and against not more than 2 or 3 targets. Any modifications that detract from close and fast,
ruin it. If you need the range of slugs and their sights, then get a rifle. If you want to add more weight, you might come in second.
I may not be right and like I said I don't know much about shot guns. I do know that while I was in vietnam, I was extreamly alert and worried about contact at very short ranges (don't even get me started on putting gadgets on an AR15/m16. ) If I used a shotgun It would be bare. At close range I would run it dry then drop it on the ground and draw a hand gun. Not a new thought one of the movies of Wyatt Earp shows Doc. Holliday do this at the O.K. corral.
_____________________________________
he went into younder village and never returned
LanceOregon
10-05-09, 04:34
Like I said, I will always have a SG. At least one. But... well, you know. I guess I am a rifleman.
dog
But why do you own a shotgun? Do you really need one? What do you use yours for? You don't provide us with any real context to judge where you are coming from regarding shotguns.
If you don't bird hunt or shoot clays, then there is really no pressing need for you to own a shotgun at all.
If a person doesn't bird hunt or shoot clays, then they are definitely not a shotgunner.
--
Alaskapopo
10-05-09, 04:52
But why do you own a shotgun? Do you really need one? What do you use yours for? You don't provide us with any real context to judge where you are coming from regarding shotguns.
If you don't bird hunt or shoot clays, then there is really no pressing need for you to own a shotgun at all.
If a person doesn't bird hunt or shoot clays, then they are definitely not a shotgunner.
--
I use my shotgun for animal calls at work. Its loaded with slugs for bear and moose. So its more of a big bore rifle. I also use shotguns for three gun competition.
Pat
i use a shotgun, mossberg 590, for home defense on the nightstand is my cellphone. if i think someone is in the house 911 is called first thing after i have secured my shotgun and the wife and i stay in the bedroom with door locked until they arrive. if the badguy presses the issue... first four rounds are 00buckshot. after that its all slugs. i am pretty good with pistols and rifles but middle of the night and being sleepy woken by suspicious noises a shotgun is much easier to use in the dark than a pistol. rifles can over penetrate walls much easier and put the neighbors in unneccessary danger. if the badguy has armour slugs will take care of that. pistols can be taken away a lot easier in a scuffle and are very difficult to use accurately in the dark. top it off with stress and inability to see the sights well at nite regardless of glow in the dark sights. it all adds up to shotguns being best for home defense. glow in the dark sights are more gimmick than anything else i have actually tired using a pistol at night with such sights and they are less than useful. i found them actually more a detractant than a help for firing at nite. if you must use sights on a pistol at nite keeping high vis white sights are far better than glowing sights or funky designs that glow.
anyway
if there is a need to use the weapon i will keep firing until the badguy is no longer a threat.
ColdDeadHands
10-06-09, 10:42
But why do you own a shotgun? Do you really need one? --
because it's my God given right to own whatever gun i want to. btw; shotguns work awesome on snakes...
If I could have just one, it would be a shotgun. With slugs, buckshot and birdshot it can just about do it all.
Alaskapopo
10-06-09, 13:09
i use a shotgun, mossberg 590, for home defense on the nightstand is my cellphone. if i think someone is in the house 911 is called first thing after i have secured my shotgun and the wife and i stay in the bedroom with door locked until they arrive. if the badguy presses the issue... first four rounds are 00buckshot. after that its all slugs. i am pretty good with pistols and rifles but middle of the night and being sleepy woken by suspicious noises a shotgun is much easier to use in the dark than a pistol. rifles can over penetrate walls much easier and put the neighbors in unneccessary danger. if the badguy has armour slugs will take care of that. pistols can be taken away a lot easier in a scuffle and are very difficult to use accurately in the dark. top it off with stress and inability to see the sights well at nite regardless of glow in the dark sights. it all adds up to shotguns being best for home defense. glow in the dark sights are more gimmick than anything else i have actually tired using a pistol at night with such sights and they are less than useful. i found them actually more a detractant than a help for firing at nite. if you must use sights on a pistol at nite keeping high vis white sights are far better than glowing sights or funky designs that glow.
anyway
if there is a need to use the weapon i will keep firing until the badguy is no longer a threat.
With respect sir a shotgun is not easier to hit with at close range than a rifle. These are shot patterns at 7 yards with a standard 20 inch 870 and one with a 18 inch Vanged 870.
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/Shotgun%20patterns/7yards20inch870.jpg
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/Shotgun%20patterns/7yardsvang.jpg
Further more slugs will not penetrate armor. Also .223 carbines are less likely to over penetrate inside a home vs a pistol and are about equal to buckshot loads. Lastly its not a good idea to stagger loads inside your shotgun magazine. All that will happen is you will lose track of where you are at during the fight. Its best to load with all buck or all slugs and select a different type of ammo from the side saddle and chamber port load it if you need it.
Pat
LanceOregon
10-06-09, 17:05
but middle of the night and being sleepy woken by suspicious noises a shotgun is much easier to use in the dark than a pistol.
Why would a shotgun be easier to use? You provide no arguments of any kind to back that claim up.
A shotgun would certainly be harder to get access to quickly. Or do you sleep with your shotgun? A handgun can more easily be secured near your bed than any long gun.
rifles can over penetrate walls much easier and put the neighbors in unneccessary danger.
As has already been pointed out, that is false, especially if you have a 223 carbine. Just load the gun up with some good varmint ammo, and the rifle will have poor penetrating ability.
if the badguy has armour slugs will take care of that.
You have a far greater chance of being killed by a bolt of lightning.
pistols can be taken away a lot easier in a scuffle
Irrelevant, for if an intruder is that close to you, you are probably already dead.
and ( pistols ) are very difficult to use accurately in the dark. top it off with stress and inability to see the sights well at nite regardless of glow in the dark sights.
That is why people are now putting lasers on their handguns for night time use. They make accurate shooting in the dark very easy.
And has already been very clearly illustrated, shotguns also have to be aimed in order to hit anything.
I would have to say that virtually all of your advice and recommendations here are flawed.
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LanceOregon
10-06-09, 17:11
I use my shotgun for animal calls at work. Its loaded with slugs for bear and moose. So its more of a big bore rifle. I also use shotguns for three gun competition.
Pat
My question was directed at the original poster thedog, to try to better understand why he started this thread.
It does not sound to me like he has any real need at all to own a shotgun.
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The Dumb Gun Collector
10-06-09, 23:49
In my experience a shotgun is certainly easier to hit something quickly from 21 feet to 30 yards.
Wouldn't buckshot or slug be much more lethal than any non-big game rifle?
As far as armored targets, I have always wondered what buckshot would do to the arms and hands of an armored person who has a weapon in their hands. I have a hard time believing that a center mass shot wouldn't usually end the usefulness of the guy on the other end--armored or not. Now I guess if he is wearing military armor with crotch shield and is keeping his arms, head and legs behind him you need a rifle--preferably some sort of 30-06 ap or greater.
It seems that a shotgun is much more flexible for civilian/police use. Buckshot, as far as I can tell, is about as lethal as a a firearm gets at close ranges. Slugs are not too much harder to hit with than a rifle from 70-125 yards. I have a set of ghost rings on my 870 and I have a little white band painted for 200 yard shots (just put the target behind the line). But 200 is dicey to say the least. But 200 yard shots are at the extreme end of civilian/police encounters.
A shotgun is also useful against birds, and other small animals and has a vast selection of various specialty rounds.
Just wondering.
Alaskapopo
10-07-09, 00:59
In my experience a shotgun is certainly easier to hit something quickly from 21 feet to 30 yards.
Wouldn't buckshot or slug be much more lethal than any non-big game rifle?
As far as armored targets, I have always wondered what buckshot would do to the arms and hands of an armored person who has a weapon in their hands. I have a hard time believing that a center mass shot wouldn't usually end the usefulness of the guy on the other end--armored or not. Now I guess if he is wearing military armor with crotch shield and is keeping his arms, head and legs behind him you need a rifle--preferably some sort of 30-06 ap or greater.
It seems that a shotgun is much more flexible for civilian/police use. Buckshot, as far as I can tell, is about as lethal as a a firearm gets at close ranges. Slugs are not too much harder to hit with than a rifle from 70-125 yards. I have a set of ghost rings on my 870 and I have a little white band painted for 200 yard shots (just put the target behind the line). But 200 is dicey to say the least. But 200 yard shots are at the extreme end of civilian/police encounters.
A shotgun is also useful against birds, and other small animals and has a vast selection of various specialty rounds.
Just wondering.
I remember from shotgun training that taught us the A B and C zone concept. In the A zone less than 7 yards the shotgun is no easier to hit with. From 7 yards to 25 yards the pattern spread does help a bit. After 25 its harder to make reliable fight stopping hits. I personally believe that inside of 7 yards that buck shot is more effective than the best assault rifle rounds (.223, 2.62 ext) past that range I think the rifle rounds have the edge as the patterns spread gets too wide. But that is just my opinon.
As for slugs you can hit with them at 100 yards if you are a good shotgunner and know your gun and ammo. But hitting with a rifle at that range is far easier and faster.
Pat
ColdDeadHands
10-07-09, 08:51
I personally believe that inside of 7 yards that buck shot is more effective than the best assault rifle rounds (.223, 2.62 ext) past that range I think the rifle rounds have the edge as the patterns spread gets too wide.
Pat
I would say it depends on the Ammo...my Remington 870 with modified choke, loaded with Federal Tactical 00 Buck w/ Flite control shoots a fairly small group of 7" @ 25 yards. I'm just saying if one decides to use a Shotgun they should know about its limits and find a good load.
The Dumb Gun Collector
10-07-09, 11:18
I don't know, I think the shotgun is starting to get an unnecessarily negative rap in tactical circles. I think the focus for a lot of people leans more towards military-type encounters than is really productive. If I was going to go shoot something or someone in my yard (about .75 acre) I would take my 870 over any rifle I have (OK, I would probably take my M16 if there were zombies).
On the other hand, some shotgun folks exaggerate the powers of the shotgun to almost magical levels. And I can understand why folks might react against that kind of dumbness.
Why would a shotgun be easier to use? You provide no arguments of any kind to back that claim up.
A shotgun would certainly be harder to get access to quickly. Or do you sleep with your shotgun? A handgun can more easily be secured near your bed than any long gun.
As has already been pointed out, that is false, especially if you have a 223 carbine. Just load the gun up with some good varmint ammo, and the rifle will have poor penetrating ability.
You have a far greater chance of being killed by a bolt of lightning.
Irrelevant, for if an intruder is that close to you, you are probably already dead.
That is why people are now putting lasers on their handguns for night time use. They make accurate shooting in the dark very easy.
And has already been very clearly illustrated, shotguns also have to be aimed in order to hit anything.
I would have to say that virtually all of your advice and recommendations here are flawed.
--
shotguns are longer weapons than pistols. a longer weapon is easier to keep aligned under stress and under low vis situations. pistols are not as good manstoppers as hollywood makes them out to be. under stress and adrenalin unless person is hit in the head or spine they may go for a bit before even realizing they are shot. a shotgun allows a much wider wound channel and more oppurtunity for catastrophic damage to occur. a shotgun or other long arm is easier to use at longrange even just across a room.
go try it yourself sometime: go do 40 push ups 40 situps and run in place for a bit then do a few more pushups so you got a good bloodrush going and immediatly fire your pistol at a target for the full magazine then repeat with a long arm. there is a distinct difference in accuracy form a longarm to a pistol under stress.
unless you have ever been shot at you do not realize what an actual adrenaline rush can do to your body and even doing massive amount of calastenics(sp) doesnt properly simulate the effect. under stress especially for folks that have never had to operate with massive amounts of survival chemicals running through their systems most people cannot use pistols effectively at extremely short ranges.
a lot of police wounded by firearms are wounded by their own pistols which are taken away from them in scuffles or accidently go off during a struggle. a longarm is a LOT harder to twist around and discharge in your own gut than a pistol is.
varmint ammo is very powerful and has a LOT of energy if you need to fire through walls you better be sure whats on the other side. go try your favorite rounds and do some experimenting on various building materials. there is little diff tween a "varmint" round and a military 5.56 other than varmint rounds tend to be heavier bullets with more foot lbs of energy and better ballistics. not sure what you mean by that.
body armour doesnt mean just bullet proof vests. body armour can be just the normal clothing that people wear commiting a robbery. really thick jackets or coats stolen goods in a person's arms or just about anything that can be imagined that someone is carrying or wearing.
as for lasers they are a nice toy how often do you check the batteries in yours?? ever use it in the dark under stress?? ever try to find where that little red dot is at when your under stress?? another piece of technology to depend on and make sure is all working under stress.
figured logic would have some effect and i wouldnt have to explain each sentence. but young folks these days *shrug* i was just giving my opinion. until you have been i n a life and death situation and know what its like its totally different than doing a what if. shotguns i wouldnt take to war. for home defense they are a must have. the ease of use the ease of pointing at targets and the ease of operation under stress really cant be beat.
your entitled to your opinions. leave me to mine.
SGT D USMC
10-07-09, 14:43
I think all weapons have their limitations and their strenths, Have a basic understanding and make a reasonable choice for the expected situation.
When faced with the sitution be the first with a reasonable shot with what is at hand. In that split second forget about all consiterations except for actually having a friendly in your sites. Almost all the details we have discussed should not be clogging your mind when its time to shot or you may lose. I also like to one up people on choosing the exactly perfect weapon and the perfect tactics. But that does not make you a serviver.
The winner is usualy the one that gets a reasonably good hit with a reasonably good round. Practice that. And yes I servived several fire fights, also they were a long time ago. And alot of what I learned from it was after alot of years of thinking about it and mostly from listening to others and not agreeing with all their long envolved tactics and gadgets. number 1 is still get the first hit.
_______________________________
he went into younder village and never returned
LanceOregon
10-17-09, 12:49
your entitled to your opinions. leave me to mine.
So you are saying that you cannot take someone else disagreeing with your assertions?? If so, then you should simply just not post them in the first place.
Your comments about 223 ammo are a bit hypocritical and contradictory too. First you complain that 223 ammo has too much penetration. And now you complain that less fragile 223 loads have too little penetration. You can't have it BOTH ways, and maintain a consistent standpoint.
And these remarks by you:
figured logic would have some effect and i wouldnt have to explain each sentence. but young folks these days *shrug* i was just giving my opinion. until you have been i n a life and death situation and know what its like its totally different than doing a what if.
are extremely condescending in nature. You have absolutely no idea how old I am, or how many years I have been using firearms, or under what circumstances. So in making these assumptions, you are actually now speaking from total ignorance.
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The Dumb Gun Collector
10-17-09, 12:56
Hey guys, let's be civil. This is a silly thing to be getting hot about.
Back to the OPs first post, I dont believe that Racking the shotgun is going to magically scare anyone from my APT, nor do I believe that there is 1 type of ammunition that my SG fires that is the end all of rounds. But I do believe the the shot from Either Bird or Buck will ruin someones day. Hell, I think a .22 in my chest would make me have a bad day, even at 150 yards, would constitute as a bad day. I use 7 1/2 Bird shot, in my Mossy 590, partially because my nieghbors are close and the horsehair plaster would soak up most of it, partially because its the cheapest in my area to train with ($22 for 100). I have 2 tacticool gadgets on my 590, a 5 shot shotshell holder on the stock and yes, the Bayonette on the end - NOT for HD, but because Mass thinks that Bayonetts, pistol grips and collapsable stocks are the evilest thing known to Man. 8+1, +5 in reserve, 1911 with CMC 8 rd Mags (3), and a cell phone makes me feel confident at night that things will be ok.
With 16" barrels and Fixed stocks my ARs and my MP5 clone are no less unwieldly to carry through my APT.
SGT D USMC
10-20-09, 13:03
I would personaly hear the rack of a slide than face some fanatic with a bayonet on his shotgun.
BLACK LION
10-20-09, 16:14
shotguns are longer weapons than pistols. a longer weapon is easier to keep aligned under stress and under low vis situations. pistols are not as good manstoppers as hollywood makes them out to be. under stress and adrenalin unless person is hit in the head or spine they may go for a bit before even realizing they are shot. a shotgun allows a much wider wound channel and more oppurtunity for catastrophic damage to occur. a shotgun or other long arm is easier to use at longrange even just across a room.
go try it yourself sometime: go do 40 push ups 40 situps and run in place for a bit then do a few more pushups so you got a good bloodrush going and immediatly fire your pistol at a target for the full magazine then repeat with a long arm. there is a distinct difference in accuracy form a longarm to a pistol under stress.
unless you have ever been shot at you do not realize what an actual adrenaline rush can do to your body and even doing massive amount of calastenics(sp) doesnt properly simulate the effect. under stress especially for folks that have never had to operate with massive amounts of survival chemicals running through their systems most people cannot use pistols effectively at extremely short ranges.
a lot of police wounded by firearms are wounded by their own pistols which are taken away from them in scuffles or accidently go off during a struggle. a longarm is a LOT harder to twist around and discharge in your own gut than a pistol is.
varmint ammo is very powerful and has a LOT of energy if you need to fire through walls you better be sure whats on the other side. go try your favorite rounds and do some experimenting on various building materials. there is little diff tween a "varmint" round and a military 5.56 other than varmint rounds tend to be heavier bullets with more foot lbs of energy and better ballistics. not sure what you mean by that.
body armour doesnt mean just bullet proof vests. body armour can be just the normal clothing that people wear commiting a robbery. really thick jackets or coats stolen goods in a person's arms or just about anything that can be imagined that someone is carrying or wearing.
as for lasers they are a nice toy how often do you check the batteries in yours?? ever use it in the dark under stress?? ever try to find where that little red dot is at when your under stress?? another piece of technology to depend on and make sure is all working under stress.
figured logic would have some effect and i wouldnt have to explain each sentence. but young folks these days *shrug* i was just giving my opinion. until you have been i n a life and death situation and know what its like its totally different than doing a what if. shotguns i wouldnt take to war. for home defense they are a must have. the ease of use the ease of pointing at targets and the ease of operation under stress really cant be beat.
your entitled to your opinions. leave me to mine.
I may sound somewhat hypocritical but your post is hard to discern. The sentences tend to bleed into each other making it difficult to understand. That is probably why you feel you need to explain each one.
Also, you are not coming off on the right foot here. I am an FNG to these parts but I try to be respectful, tactful and use a little integrity. I may not be the best at it, but I try... I suggest you do the same my friend.
There is a wealth of knowledge overflowing this board and others alike... There are all types of experience and expertise in every background you can think of I am sure. Dont phuck up your opportunity to take part by being a tough guy or a smartass.
Back to our regularly scheduled program.
I am a proponent for using a shotgun whenever I can get my hands on it....same with my pistol and my rifle. I try not to have any bias towards any one of them, in terms of when and when not to use them. Distance shots are a different story so obviously the bias would go in favor of my rifle. You put me up close and personal and I will use whatever I can get my hands on wether its a pistol, shotgun, a knife or a rock....
Shotguns are a wonderful , powerful tool. I will always own and be proficient with one.
I remember from shotgun training that taught us the A B and C zone concept. In the A zone less than 7 yards the shotgun is no easier to hit with. From 7 yards to 25 yards the pattern spread does help a bit. After 25 its harder to make reliable fight stopping hits. I personally believe that inside of 7 yards that buck shot is more effective than the best assault rifle rounds (.223, 2.62 ext) past that range I think the rifle rounds have the edge as the patterns spread gets too wide. But that is just my opinon.
As for slugs you can hit with them at 100 yards if you are a good shotgunner and know your gun and ammo. But hitting with a rifle at that range is far easier and faster.
Pat
For me, out to about 100m I can hit about as well with an M4 Benelli as I can with an AK-47 off-hand.
I think that if you can own only one weapon, the Shotgun is the one to own. The 12 gauge with a 3" chamber, to be specific, in which ever flavor you like. It can take any land animal in the world with merely a change of ammunition. No other weapon can lay claim to that. Truly versatile.
The shotgun would probably be my first choice in a one-gun solution; its a jack of all trades and master at one, that one is taking birds. But it will also, given the right ammo, barrel and distance, do just about whatever you want including some things a rifle cant do (or do very well). Wont be doing any long-range work with one, but inside its envelope it's the best all-around gun IMO.
I don't give a crap about versatility with a home defense gun. In fact I want a gun that's only good at one thing, and that one thing is killing bad guys. For me this is an AR.
I am in the shotgun=win out to 50 yards camp. ALl of my shotguns can put 4+ OOO pellets into a 14" circle out to 50 yards. Noone can argue that OOO will not at LEAST penetrate 14" in a BG, even out at 50 yards. It is my firm opinion that if I puncture both lungs and damage some of the great-vessels or the heart in a single shot, I have done a world of hurt.
What can go wrong?
Only 120ml of fluid (blood) in the pericardial sack will lead to cardiac tamponade and failure of the circulatory system.
Any puncture to the thoracic cavity that opens the pleural space to atmosphere either from the lung, or external to the chest-cavity, will cause a pneumothorax.
Without the pump, and without the lungs to oxygenate the blood that the pump pumps. Fail. Epic resounding fail.
Of course, one of those many pellets might also find part of the CNS on its hi-speed tour of BG.
Inside 50 yards, say, 10-50 yards, with a load it likes, a shotgun ensures the high probability of disruption of both lungs and damage to the heart or great vessels or both. I like the shotgun. It makes a mess. Sure, it may not cause massive wound-channels via individual pellets, but if the aorta, or other great vessels are struck, it really doesn't matter that it's "only" a .30" hole in/out. If the lung is punctured, again, it really isn't that big of a deal whether the hold is .30 or .50. The point is, the system is going down in a hurry, the brain will follow directly.
thedog... you are a racist:cool:
I have reported you to the ACLU for scattergun discrimination:p
Shotguns were my primary for several years and I like them within their practical application
After reading WS6's last post I decided to go on a witch-hunt for some backup that would solidify my argument for a shotgun. I load with 7 1/2 for a few reasons, 1 my neighbors are close, and I know that people argue that a .223 will stop in walls, While I was overseas I was shooting through truck hulls at 2-400m, my horsehair and drywall, and my neighbors walls wouldnt stand a chance! You can believe the stories in the thread or not, my purpose to provide this link is to show 7 1/2 bird in Ballistic Gel, and why I think the SG is a great HD weapon: "Pics are large, beware."
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=381023
I stood against the wall, put my back as flat as I could, and a ruler on the wall. My torso came out 11 inches thick. The Shot from the BG shows 5.5 inches of Penetration. I can hear it, "Leather coat, winter coat, Body armor," and that would be the reason to NOT carry 1 shell in your shotgun, follow on shots. After he is down, you will not just walk away and pretend its over and go back to bed. You will cover him with your muzzle until the police arrive. I think that even if you hit them while they are wearing that coat or BA, they will still go down, maybe not dead, but down, and when you are standing there muzzle pointed at their face, I doubt there will be any more struggle.
After reading WS6's last post I decided to go on a witch-hunt for some backup that would solidify my argument for a shotgun. I load with 7 1/2 for a few reasons, 1 my neighbors are close, and I know that people argue that a .223 will stop in walls, While I was overseas I was shooting through truck hulls at 2-400m, my horsehair and drywall, and my neighbors walls wouldnt stand a chance! You can believe the stories in the thread or not, my purpose to provide this link is to show 7 1/2 bird in Ballistic Gel, and why I think the SG is a great HD weapon: "Pics are large, beware."
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=381023
I stood against the wall, put my back as flat as I could, and a ruler on the wall. My torso came out 11 inches thick. The Shot from the BG shows 5.5 inches of Penetration. I can hear it, "Leather coat, winter coat, Body armor," and that would be the reason to NOT carry 1 shell in your shotgun, follow on shots. After he is down, you will not just walk away and pretend its over and go back to bed. You will cover him with your muzzle until the police arrive. I think that even if you hit them while they are wearing that coat or BA, they will still go down, maybe not dead, but down, and when you are standing there muzzle pointed at their face, I doubt there will be any more struggle.
Pinder, I have long been an advocate of avoiding birdshot for self-defence. Here is why:
The heart and lungs are protected by ribs, the sternum, and the fact that if an "attacker"'s hands are hanging by his side, you have no real NEED to shoot unless he is firing from the hip or something. Likely, his hands will be wielding a weapon and he will be twisted to strike (as with a bat), putting his bicep and brachial and possibly radial and ulnar bones in the way of his chest-cavity, or holding a firearm/aiming it, in which case much the same is between your barrel and his heart/lungs.
In review:
Minimal barriers: Sternum, pectorial muscle, ribs.
Maxmimum barriers: Sternum, pectorial muscle, ribs, ulnar/radial/brachial bones and accompanying tendons/muscle/fat tissue.
You are hoping for a best-case scenario, which is still not the greatest. If you were shooting a heart sitting on a table, sure, birdshot would rock it's world. However, when the good Lord, or evolution, or whatever you ascribe your development to created you, you were created to be tough. To survive.
If you will follow with the next argument that I anticipate you making of taking a head-shot once your COM shot stuns/injures the opponent, I would remind you of the shooting of Officer Decoatsworth, of Philadelphia. Here is a link describing the incident. I hope you re-consider your load of choice based on the pertinent evidence provided you, or support your use of said load with scientific evidence backed by case-studies showing the efficacy of such.
http://www.lawofficer.com/news-and-articles/news/Man_Pleads_Guilty_to-Shooting-Rookie_Officer_in_Face.html
You will note, that for all of the great claims given to the ability of birdshot to "incapacitate, stun, dehabilitate", whatever, the target. A direct blast of it to the face did not stop this man from chasing the shooter for THREE BLOCKS. Now, if this guy can run for three blocks after being hit in the face with it, what's 15 feet to plunge a knife into your chest?
Yes, I am sure you would be firing round after round at him and it might do the trick, but I would rather fire round after round of buckshot. Yes Buckshot can fail, but it fails quite a bit less often.
What I think, and I am WAY late in responding, is this was intended as a drama post....Who cares what anyone does with their....yeah, that's THEIR shotgun. I think every weapon has it's own purpose, and if I want to add a white light and a T1 to my benelli, it's my business. I also have my AR for when SHTF.....whatever. If I'm sleeping at 3 Am and have a home invasion, I'm probably grabbing the Benelli m4 with 2 3/4 00 buck, as I'm half asleep and don't need to worry about 3 chest 2 head.
What I think, and I am WAY late in responding, is this was intended as a drama post....Who cares what anyone does with their....yeah, that's THEIR shotgun. I think every weapon has it's own purpose, and if I want to add a white light and a T1 to my benelli, it's my business. I also have my AR for when SHTF.....whatever. If I'm sleeping at 3 Am and have a home invasion, I'm probably grabbing the Benelli m4 with 2 3/4 00 buck, as I'm half asleep and don't need to worry about 3 chest 2 head.
M4 FTW :cool:
GlockMasterG9
11-08-09, 23:09
my go to HD weapons is a mossy 500a.
I use #4 shot. MY son is 2 rooms down the shot only needs to pass through 2 walls to get to him. No matter what I would end up aiming twords his end of the house.
So NO 00 buck shot or ar for me. If I have to shoot the bad guy more than 1 time fine........but I have other lives in the house more valuable than mine to think about.
Middle of the night woke up out of a deep sleep disoriented, yea I may not be at the top of my shooting game at that moment. So there's a good chance a few stray shots may miss the bad guy and got through the walls.
I could live with a lot but not if I shot my own kid cuz I wanted to make sure I did the most damage possible in one shot. The whole point is to defend my family.
That being said every situation is different as is every house environment so everyone's decision will differ.
Of course my little commando here is well trained hopefully he will keep his head down.
http://reecephoto.smugmug.com/Holidays/Holidays/IMG1501/699395430_uYEFz-S.jpg
my go to HD weapons is a mossy 500a.
I use #4 shot. MY son is 2 rooms down the shot only needs to pass through 2 walls to get to him. No matter what I would end up aiming twords his end of the house.
So NO 00 buck shot or ar for me. If I have to shoot the bad guy more than 1 time fine........but I have other lives in the house more valuable than mine to think about.
Middle of the night woke up out of a deep sleep disoriented, yea I may not be at the top of my shooting game at that moment. So there's a good chance a few stray shots may miss the bad guy and got through the walls.
I could live with a lot but not if I shot my own kid cuz I wanted to make sure I did the most damage possible in one shot. The whole point is to defend my family.
That being said every situation is different as is every house environment so everyone's decision will differ.
Of course my little commando here is well trained hopefully he will keep his head down.
http://reecephoto.smugmug.com/Holidays/Holidays/IMG1501/699395430_uYEFz-S.jpg
Why don't you upgrade to #4 buck and install a book-case filled with books between your son's bed and your line of fire? Even if you DON'T go to a more effective projectile, the book-case is a good idea. Tailor your environment to give you the advantage. Also nice to see a parent raising a child who respects firearms instead of fears them.
GlockMasterG9
11-10-09, 08:31
Good suggestion but that just wont work with the way the room is set up.
Why don't you upgrade to #4 buck and install a book-case filled with books between your son's bed and your line of fire? Even if you DON'T go to a more effective projectile, the book-case is a good idea. Tailor your environment to give you the advantage. Also nice to see a parent raising a child who respects firearms instead of fears them.
I've never been impressed with #4. Sub-standard even as a hunting round.
Agree however with your post above about the versatility of a shotgun. Its settles the "if you could only have one gun...." conversation.
Supreme at small game and birds.
Good on big game at reasonable ranges.
Good on baddies at reasonable ranges.
It's no small thing that the overwhelming majority of Western settlers chose shotguns as their "one gun."
That said, I'd still reach for my AK-102 clone first for a home defense situation.
I don't even own a shotgun anymore.
You are all welcome to them.
Moose-Knuckle
12-22-09, 12:00
The first firearm I ever purchased at the age of 18 was a Mossberg 590. IMHO no "tool box" is complete without at least one. They are with out a doubt one of, if not the most versatile firearms. Quick change barrels, different length barrels, smooth bore, rifled bore, various chokes, and more loads than one has use for.
Now if we lowly serfs could only get our hands on the AA12!
In a scenario such as the ones you mentioned, my tool box isnt completed without my precision rifle, carbine, shotgun, and secondary.
For the debate between rifle and carbine, a well trained carbine user can fire 5 - 6 shots at a threat in the same amount of time it takes a shotgun operator to fire, manage recoil, re-acquire a target and put one in the pipe. Its really all a matter of personal preference and situational dictation.
I started on shotguns when I was about 8. I've owned 20 or so since then that ranged anywhere from a bolt action 10ga, to a Citori Gran Lightning to an 8" Tromix Saiga.
I still have an 18" 590A1 and the Tromix. Only the Tromix really gets shot much. I use the 590A1 in the house in condition 1, but I'm going back and forth on it and the AR for HD.
To me the shotgun is pretty much passe' for other than hunting or HD. I'll take the AR and a pistol any day over the shotty, with the HD exception.
For the debate between rifle and carbine, a well trained carbine user can fire 5 - 6 shots at a threat in the same amount of time it takes a shotgun operator to fire, manage recoil, re-acquire a target and put one in the pipe.
Wanna bet...?
Wanna bet...?
I agree. That statement is far from being accurate.
nutnless220
01-08-10, 12:30
.........
SGT D USMC
01-08-10, 14:32
Forget about shotgun vs rifle. But what about shooting 5 or 6 shots from a carbine in the time a shot gun can shot one and get back on target.! Is quanity of this amount come with any quality? with M-14's we had a combat load of 120 rds. Along came the m-16 with a combat load with many more rounds. It was the perfect paper answer for more firepower. In reality I observied M-14's being fired from fairly good shooting positions in combat. Many actual films showed M-16's being fired one handed over or around cover with no sighting, etc
I am from the very old school, but I wonder about training courses with AR's using 1,000 rounds or more. This thread is not m-14 vs AR's but damn only the hits count!!!!
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he went into younder village and never returned
Failure2Stop
01-08-10, 15:16
I am from the very old school, but I wonder about training courses with AR's using 1,000 rounds or more.
Then attend one and find out.
Until then you simply don't know what you don't know.
I am not being condescending, but the reality is that to be fast and accurate for multiple rounds, you need to shoot fast and accurately with multiple round strings in repetative training.
The days of "One shot, one kill", have been replaced with the proven need to put bullets through the vital structures rapidly and until the threat no longer exists.
Concerning multiple shots and the comparision to an AR-
If both are semi-automatic the shotgunner might be able to stay with the AR gunner for a while, but a lot of that will depend on the number of shots, target to target transitions, distance, precision requirements, and range. Once strings of more than 10 rounds come into the picture, well, it's pretty obvious. Make the gun a pump and when it comes to speed with the same precision requirement, the semi-auto rifle is going to come out on top.
There are things that a shotgun can do that a carbine cannot, things that a carbine can do that a shotgun cannot, and a few things that they are essentially tied on. Whether or not those things significantly affect your circumstance will be determined when you are faced with the problem.
I think that it would be a serious error in judgement to claim that there is no application for a shotgun as long as you have a carbine, and vice versa.
SGT D USMC
01-09-10, 03:25
Failure to stop, I appreciate your answering and I will listen well. I am a firm believer that the first person to make a reasonable hit will problably win. I have experenced the rapid movement of firefights at close range , but not inside of buildings. Multiple hits are difficult and I belive that as long as you can get a sight picture (and this term is used loosely but to mean that a hit is possible) and a target is still active then keep shooting.
I should find out more about current training (the bring 1,000 rounds) I visualize it as shooting alot of rounds at the same target.
I train by shooting at multible siliouet targets at various ranges. I shot one shot at each as fast as possible with at lest one reload. I work at trying to deceide if the one shot hit the target and if in doubt I shoot at it again as quick as possible. I don't use double taps or long strings as other targets are waiting. I mostly use a M1a scout that I have built as light as possible. My theory once again is that getting a single hit in combat is an acomplicement and multy hits is usualy not possible.
I do own a few AR 15's even a Colt 6920, but in my crusty old mind thats just like going back to the spanish americian war with the nice light weight fast handling 38. It replaced the 45colt then due to its failure it was replaced by the 45acp.
I would like for you to tell me more about the training with 1,000 rounds, but I warn you I am an old dog and my tricks work. for me
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he went off into younder village and never returned
Alaskapopo
01-09-10, 03:36
Forget about shotgun vs rifle. But what about shooting 5 or 6 shots from a carbine in the time a shot gun can shot one and get back on target.! Is quanity of this amount come with any quality? with M-14's we had a combat load of 120 rds. Along came the m-16 with a combat load with many more rounds. It was the perfect paper answer for more firepower. In reality I observied M-14's being fired from fairly good shooting positions in combat. Many actual films showed M-16's being fired one handed over or around cover with no sighting, etc
I am from the very old school, but I wonder about training courses with AR's using 1,000 rounds or more. This thread is not m-14 vs AR's but damn only the hits count!!!!
________________________________
he went into younder village and never returned
If you go to training and fire a lot of rounds your chances of making hits when the stuff hits the fan are a lot better. The guys firing one handed over or around cover were not trained that well.
Pat
thopkins22
01-09-10, 08:55
I should find out more about current training (the bring 1,000 rounds) I visualize it as shooting alot of rounds at the same target.
Most courses that get the nod from this forum have very stringent accuracy requirements. Not simply pumping rounds into a silhouette.
I train by shooting at multible siliouet targets at various ranges. I shot one shot at each as fast as possible with at lest one reload. I work at trying to deceide if the one shot hit the target and if in doubt I shoot at it again as quick as possible. I don't use double taps or long strings as other targets are waiting. I mostly use a M1a scout that I have built as light as possible. My theory once again is that getting a single hit in combat is an acomplicement and multy hits is usualy not possible.
Getting hits under stress IS difficult. Hence the point of being able to rapidly acquire the same target and reengage.
Failure2Stop
01-09-10, 18:39
Guys, let's keep it on topic- shotguns.
If there is interest in other aspects, head over to Training and Tactics and read and ask. SGT D, this isn't coming down on you, but a reminder for everyone. These are good questions if you haven't been exposed to recent training, but there are better places for it, and if someone is looking for shotgun info, this isn't going to do much for them.
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