View Full Version : Brand snobs, forge marks, and other thoughts.
My goal here is to provoke an honest discussion not a pissing contest, so no hurt feelings........
These are opinions, random thoughts and observations only.
1. Since a lot of companies get their components from the same foundries, what justifies the snobbery for one rollmark over another?
2. Again since there are shared sources for other components (LPK,stocks,etc) what's the difference?
3a. The TDP and milspec are minimum standards and we all agree on that, however commercial specs which there are more competitors using has driven the AR platform to where it is now. I have been around enough to know that just because the government specifies standards and purchases an item by the ton doesn't mean it is always a good thing.
3b. Just like in the training forum people need to realize that their personal opinion is just "a way, not THE way".
4. If you are looking for a plinker and not a battle rifle then any AR platform that cycles reliably and is well maintained will do the trick.
There are some truly fine weapons out there by Noveske, LMT, some Colt's and others, but your average joe isn't going to shoot them hard enough to realize any gain from the price differences. Why waste the extra cash you could spend on ammo. Isn't the #1 rule to gunfighting have a gun, not argue over which flavor to have.
My point is, that instead of some of the absolute cork sniffer attitudes that sometimes get thrown about, why not help get the most out of the particular platform that someone presents with, not give them 50,000 reasons why they should have bought brand X,Y,Z.
I don't see why this needs to keep being brought up. Search the forums and get your answers there. Mil spec goes beyond what the government wants, MPI and HP testing are also key aspects to someone that wants a quality weapon. If someone wants something for plinking, buy a Ruger 10/22 and save in every aspect from buying the weapons, putting whatever you want on it, and ammo.
Your observations are not unreasonable. While I've bought a lot of high dollar stuff, I'm helping a buddy squeak into a new AR just under $700 w/a M1S upper and a Doublestar lower. I'll go over it and it'll be just fine for him. It won't poke out a squirrel's eye at 300 yards, but it'll give zombies tummyaches at HD ranges.
MM- that's exactly what I am talking about, help em out not discourage or berate.
As far as the 10/22 remark above, everyone should have a 10/22, it's almost more fun to shoot than the AR platform.
Again not looking for a fight here, just some honest thoughts and discussions.
For example- guy logs on here with a new DPMS rifle.
Instead of the typical why did you buy that crap responses, it should be more geared to helping them get the most out of the gun (upgrades, etc.) not just wholesale knee jerk responses.
I'm not entirely opposed to having them, I started off with a DPMS/CMMG gun. I am apposed to the arguments of ignorance of people saying they are just as good. Some things such as staking are a must in my opinion. I would agree that it's good to help everyone out and educate them.
citizensoldier16
07-19-09, 14:05
For example- guy logs on here with a new DPMS rifle.
Instead of the typical why did you buy that crap responses, it should be more geared to helping them get the most out of the gun (upgrades, etc.) not just wholesale knee jerk responses.
I agree completely. We should be helping our members up, not putting them down for not being able to afford a $1500 Colt with a $1200 Nightforce scope and 300 $20 PMAGs full of Black Hills ammo.
Instead of the typical why did you buy that crap responses, it should be more geared to helping them get the most out of the gun (upgrades, etc.) not just wholesale knee jerk responses.
this isnt how it happens.
there's a million threads where someone with a pantherolybush came in and said "i bought this piece of shit, now i'm stuck with it, please help," and all they get is lots of great help.
the "snobs" don't get snobbish until someone posts "colt is a name" or "just as good as" or "you guys are snobs" or some other remark that gets peoples backs up.
as can be expected.
it's been stated a million times- we focus on FIGHTING GUNS, therefor reliability is the number one concern, not cost. if you want to buy a gun for plinking, go talk about it on www.thehighroad.com. why should we change what we do here for sake of someone who is stubbornly ignorant or too cheap to buy quality?
this isn't the place for pantherolybushes that are "just as good."
Seems like we keep having to go over this every other week.
The military TDP is the minimum baseline that is deemed acceptable....when Bushmaster, Stag, DPMS, Rock River, Olympic, etc. can't even make that, then yes, you won't see serious guys endorsing them.
Yes, there are brands out there that are above and beyond the TDP milspec.
Instead of flogging a dead horse, I'd recommend taking some time to read these stuck threads here where all of this has been gone over ad nauseum.
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=7355
Particuarly this one>>>>
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=7376
bkb summed up my argument.
not debating the content of previous threads, just some attitudes.
Some people come here with questions and get bombarded, therefore turning them off to the whole affair.
While the focus here is on fighting guns, I can almost guarantee there are only a handful of us that have or ever will use them in direct combat, so for most it is just a theoretical exercise "If I buy something that has been used by others in battle............." .
Basing my life on weapons I carry and use that I might have to use to protect myself or someone else is not a theoretical exercise. It's carrying something made by a quality manufacturer that took the time to do it right the first time because they realize that people's lives depend on those weapons. I am not a fan of companies that claim one thing, but do not produce a product that backs up their claims.
Well, I like my Noveske lower and it's rollmark because of the rollmark itself. It's also nice that the coolest "picture" used for a logo comes out of a factory that makes some pretty nice uppers, barrels and rifles. It's a Win-Win.
this isnt how it happens.
there's a million threads where someone with a pantherolybush came in and said "i bought this piece of shit, now i'm stuck with it, please help," and all they get is lots of great help.
the "snobs" don't get snobbish until someone posts "colt is a name" or "just as good as" or "you guys are snobs" or some other remark that gets peoples backs up.
as can be expected.
it's been stated a million times- we focus on FIGHTING GUNS, therefor reliability is the number one concern, not cost. if you want to buy a gun for plinking, go talk about it on www.thehighroad.com. why should we change what we do here for sake of someone who is stubbornly ignorant or too cheap to buy quality?
this isn't the place for pantherolybushes that are "just as good."
Well said.
citizensoldier16
07-19-09, 14:36
bkb0000 - I think you're wrong, sir. While you may focus entirely on fighting guns, I truly believe many members of M4C are here for information regarding the entirety of the M4/M16 experience...ie, what will suit their needs without getting them evicted from their home because they spent the mortgage money on a barrel.
To think that everyone on this site has an unlimited supply of $$ to spend buying the most expensive rifle and/or parts on the market is arrogant. Many members, including myself, wish to have a servicable rifle that fills many roles from HD all the way down to punching holes in paper.
I don't own a Colt, or a Noveske, or a Nightforce scope. I simply can't afford one. I bought a Bushy. True, it had its faults, but I've spent what money I can fixing those faults and improving on an adequate platform. I don't live in Zombieville, and I don't have to fight off corrupt government agents every day, but I like to think that I am at least ready to put up a fight. True, my rifle doesn't have that shnazzy little pony etched into the side, nor does it have 4 car payments worth of scope attached to the top. My stock rattles a tiny bit on it's commercial buffer tube. I carry my rifle to the range in a duffle bag instead of some high-speed low-drag sniper's bag that doubles as an invisible flotation device. My bug out bag is a blue American Eagle postal bag I bought at the mall for $35. I only own three Surefire lights.
My rifle does, however, go bang every time I pull the trigger and my rounds strike true. I'm humble with my Bushy/Eotech/duffle bag/Amerian Eagle combination. I don't suffer from M4 envy.
I've read in many places on this site that "we" (M4C members) do not take stock in the "tacticool" aspects of things.
You've stated that you do not trust lower tier rifles to perform. Do you drive a Ferrari to the grocery store? God knows you may one day have to fight off hordes of housewives in minivans in order to secure that tactical jar of pickles.
I hope you, and others, see my point. True, we all want the best out of our equipment. I just don't see the point of belittling our members in order to put ourselves on a pedestal.
Isn't the #1 rule to gunfighting have a gun, not argue over which flavor to have.
What good is a gun in a gun fight, that when you go to use it and it malfunctions to the point of not functioning at all? Or having that question in the back of your head asking if your weapon will work as intended through the fight without any hic cups? I dont know about you but i would rather spend the extra money buy a quality weapon to learn and love and not have to worry about any 2nd guess questions running through my head about that particular brand of weapon.
If you guys are thinking that there is class warfare here at M4C, you're mistaken.
I make a very moderate income, but I learned a long time ago that you end up spending less money in the long run if you scrimp and save and eat ramen noodles for a while to buy right the first time than it is to buy what's immediately affordable and then spend money to upgrade.
I ran a stock Colt 6920 for a long time with irons and no rail system, but I was patient and waited until I saw deals on the upgrades I wanted to make.
In any case, I don't see any overt beligerance coming from anyone except the "my OlyBushyPantherRock is good enough" crowd.
If you ask questions, you'll get responses from people who's lives ARE dependent on their equipment, and if you don't like the answers, there's not a lot we can do for you.
If you read the stuck threads here at the top of the forum, especially the one I posted that RobS wrote about what kind of upgrades you can make on an existing rifle and not just throw the baby out with the bathwater, it would go a long way towards answering questions people might have.
So, with that, I'm closing this thread down.
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