Which AR-15 Kit?

[Bill Bryant]

I've decided to built my own AR-15 from a kit. I would be grateful for information from those who know, ranking various suppliers of parts, kits, complete barreled uppers, stripped lower receivers, etc. I don't even have a budget yet because I don't know where that sweet spot is before the diminishing returns kick in. I'm handy with small tools and don't feel threatened by the challenges of the actual build. I'm just trying to decide how much to spend for parts and whom to buy them from.

I do want a well-made, reliable weapon, but I do not intend to put 5000 rounds a year through it. I have other rifles I shoot like that, but that's not what I intend to do with the AR-15. My main reason for getting an AR-15 is as a reward/incentive for my son, who has enlisted in the USMC delayed entry program his senior year. He wants to get familiar with 5.56mm before boot camp, so I offered him the AR-15 as a prize if he could score over a 250 on his PFT, put 3000 carefully aimed rounds through paper with a .22, and memorize his ranks, codes, jargon, rules, etc. He's at 247 on the PFT and is close to the other goals.

So on the one hand this isn't an AR-15 just to sit in the safe, nor is it about TEOTWAWKI on the other (though a bit of anti-statism is lurking in there somewhere). I just want something that isn't junk, gives my son a good feel for 5.56mm, and perhaps takes my libertarian 2nd Amendment sentiments to the next level just a bit (I already have a safe full of fun stuff but no evil black rifle yet).

[Boss302]

This is what I would do:

Get these:

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-M16-Government-20-Upper-Receiver-Group-p/bcm-urg-gov-20.htm

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/AR15-Charging-Handle-BCM-p/bcm%20charging%20handle%20ar15.htm

http://www.newriverarms.net/product-info.php?pid110.html

Now all you need is an A2 stock, Lower receiver, and LPK....at least this is the route i'm currently taking. The LPK is going to be the biggest problem, they are out everywhere.

[bkb0000]

ive never seen a "kit" that i would pay any money for. if you want something that's purely an instructional gun that isnt gonna cost a lot of money, Stag (CMT) makes probably the best "cheap" gun, in my own opinion. CMT parts are consistent, and any lack of staking can be fixed with a $10 spring loaded punch from a hardware store.

the only advantage to assembling your own gun is that you get to source your own parts. if you're not interested in personal selection of parts based upon desirable criteria, you might as well just buy something. stag m4geries can be had for under $800

[CaptainDooley]

Look at bravocompanyusa.com and gandrtactical.com and look for parts from BCM, LMT, or the G and R Tactical line... Anything you get from them should be good to go. Depending on options you should easily stay under 1K. Probably the easiest route would be a BCM complete lower and barrelled upper.

[ljlinson1206]

Some other great sights to look for parts at are:

Aim Surplus
Peach State Guns (LBR lower for less than $100)
Brownell's
Del-Ton
Rainier Arms

Just to name a few

[Iraqgunz]

BB,

Here's my thoughts. Right now instead of trying to get the parts to build one I would look for a Colt 6920, Daniel Defense M4 or XV and be done. I believe that the latter is retailing for around 1200.00 or less.

Another option would be the BCM or LMT complete lowers for about 350.00, a 16" Bravo Company upper for approx. 475.00 (when available) and a BCG for about 150.00. Add in the handguards and you are around 1040.00 or so.

[fdxpilot]

BB,

Here's my thoughts. Right now instead of trying to get the parts to build one I would look for a Colt 6920, Daniel Defense M4 or XV and be done. I believe that the latter is retailing for around 1200.00 or less.

Another option would be the BCM or LMT complete lowers for about 350.00, a 16" Bravo Company upper for approx. 475.00 (when available) and a BCG for about 150.00. Add in the handguards and you are around 1040.00 or so.


I have to go along with Iraqgunz on this. As your son is rapidly closing in on your benchmarks, time is a factor. Given the recent market for all things "Black Rifle" related, waiting for the various parts may take a long time (possibly months,) especially if you're going for quality mechandise. A complete rifle might be a better choice for you. A Daniels Defense XV or an LMT Defender, if found in the $1200 range would be an excellent, high-quality, basic M4 carbine.

I went the LMT route, myself.

[vaglocker]

Don't think the Colt 6920 is out of reach. Deals can be found. I just picked one up for $1175 :D.

[Bill Bryant]

As best I can Google it, y'all are recommending guns at the top of the food chain. For my purposes is this really necessary?

If I "settle" for something like Stag or CMMG or Bushmaster, do I get a truly dog of a gun, or is it like settling for a Remington 700 instead of a Dakota Arms?

[vaglocker]

As best I can Google it, y'all are recommending guns at the top of the food chain. For my purposes is this really necessary?

If I "settle" for something like Stag or CMMG or Bushmaster, do I get a truly dog of a gun, or is it like settling for a Remington 700 instead of a Dakota Arms?


I think you'll find that most here don't buy into the "just as good as a..." concept when it comes to fighting rifles. If your willing to spend $800-900 on a rifle then there is no excuse not to save up a little more and get something as close to the TDP as possible (i.e. Colt, LMT, BCM). In the end it is up to you. If it's just going to be a plinker then by all means get the Stag or a Bushy. If you envision ever having to depend on it to save your life then spend the extra coin.

[Bill Bryant]

I think you'll find that most here don't buy into the "just as good as a..." concept when it comes to fighting rifles. If your willing to spend $800-900 on a rifle then there is no excuse not to save up a little more and get something as close to the TDP as possible (i.e. Colt, LMT, BCM). In the end it is up to you. If it's just going to be a plinker then by all means get the Stag or a Bushy. If you envision ever having to depend on it to save your life then spend the extra coin.
I don't buy into the "just as good as" idea either.

I think I'm hearing you say that the difference between an $800 AR-15 and a $1500 one is about always going bang rather than about fit and finish. I think you're saying that buying a Colt or LMT is about buying a "real" AR-15, not an over and beyond one, and that $800 versions are in fact sub-standard, corners cutting, examples of the blueprint.

My Remington 700 always goes bang, never mis-feeds, and shoots sub MOA with good ammo. It's been on many hunts and never lets me down in the field. True enough, it isn't a Dakota Arms or Cooper, but it is still a "real" rifle, made to blueprint and cutting no corners with regard to the fulfillment of its design. I think you're saying that no one makes a Cooper-level AR-15: that a Colt or LMT AR-15 is just a "real" AR-15, and Stag, etc. are sub-blueprint.

[tylerw02]

As best I can Google it, y'all are recommending guns at the top of the food chain. For my purposes is this really necessary?

If I "settle" for something like Stag or CMMG or Bushmaster, do I get a truly dog of a gun, or is it like settling for a Remington 700 instead of a Dakota Arms?

If you aren't going to spend the money for a tier one gun and cheap out and buy the Stag, Bushmaster, etc plan on making investments in the future:

-gas key will need staked

-you may have to upgrade the extractor with a new kit (many will tell you to just ditch the whole bolt because it isn't MPI, etc. but if nobody's life is on the line with it, keep it and replace it WHEN it fails)

-after-market stocks aren't going to fit the commercial buffer-tubes so you may have to replace it if you want a different stock

-your chamber may or may not be 5.56 NATO and you may not be able to run 5.56 ammo through it. The remedy is to have the chamber reamed by a competent smith so that you will be able to run both kinds of ammunition.



From what I've seen, CMMG makes some of the better second tier AR15s. Their barrels are good and have NATO chambers. I've seen several BCGs from them that have been staked properly and some that haven't. I do believe they give you the option of an M16 BCG that has a black insert. CMMG also allows you to somewhat customize the gun on ordering. You can get middy gas systems, different stocks/grips, and have quad rails installed. For the price of a factory CMMG, though, you can add $200 and get a Colt 6920.

If you do want to put it together yourself, I highly recommend buying whatever lower you can find, a quality LPK, a Bravo Company stock kit, LMT rear sight, and waiting for Bravo to get F/A BCGs and BCM uppers in stock. You'll end up with a GREAT carbine and have a few hundred less than the Colt in it.

[illumina]

If you do want to put it together yourself, I highly recommend buying whatever lower you can find, a quality LPK, a Bravo Company stock kit, LMT rear sight, and waiting for Bravo to get F/A BCGs and BCM uppers in stock. You'll end up with a GREAT carbine and have a few hundred less than the Colt in it.I'm obviously no expert(first post), but after months of reading about ARs, this is exactly what I'm planning on doing. Bill, you mention the difference of $800 and $1500, but in reality, if you go the way tyler mentioned, it's really more like a difference of $800 and $950. I'd definitely spend the little bit extra and get the tier 1(BCM).

[rmecapn]

To the best of my knowledge, the USMC does not issue M4's. If you're going to be giving it to him so he can familiarize himself with the weapon he will be issued, then you need to put together a M16A4gery and not an M4gery. I'm just sayin' ...

[Bill Bryant]

To the best of my knowledge, the USMC does not issue M4's. If you're going to be giving it to him so he can familiarize himself with the weapon he will be issued, then you need to put together a M16A4gery and not an M4gery. I'm just sayin' ...Thanks. Good heads up.

[tango-papa]

The cost difference between a "substandard" AR and one that meets/exceeds the requirements of the military is quite a bit less than you might think.

You don't need to settle for anything less.

Since you are a member here, I suggest the following course of action:

1. Contact Grant at http://www.gandrtactical.com/
2. Ask him for the member pricing on the Daniel Defense XV M-4 carbine.
3. Send him your $ and wait for package to arrive at FFL.
4. Enjoy new rifle that meets/exceeds the military requirements.

I am a very loyal and satisfied G&R Tactical customer and recommend them with no reservations whatsoever.

~tp

[rmecapn]

I think you'll find that most here don't buy into the "just as good as a..." concept when it comes to fighting rifles.

I do believe the OP was specific that his criteria was not for a "fighting" carbine/rifle. The problem is that we have become so "snooty" here on M4C we can't seem to assist someone with purchasing a reasonable quality firearm that meets a budget. Like it or not, Noveske isn't the answer to everything.

For the OP's stated needs, he will be looking for a 20" barrelled flattop upper, since his son is going into the Marines. This negates many of the issues associated with the M4, such as buffer weight, carrier type, extractor tension, and castle nut staking. The carrier key needs to be staked properly, of course. For a young man going into the Marines, I'd be happy to do it, if it doesn't come properly done. I have a MOACKS.

Any stripped lower from a well-known manufacturer will work. The CMT and RRA LPK's are reasonably priced and will meet your requirements. I have no clue where to tell you to get your buttstock, as all of mine are collapsible, but I'll bet you could find some good used ones for a reasonable price on the 'net. As for the upper, I would suggest going with a complete upper, if possible. Stay with the upper end of the tier 2 manufacturers such as Superior Arms, RRA, Stag, or CMMG. 4140 steel for the barrel will suffice, as will a 1/9 twist rate. Although, if possible, I would go with a 1/7 twist. Your optics will be another story. I don't know of anyone who makes a decent TA31 ACOG clone. But then, I don't know if the USMC teaches the use of the ACOG right off the bat, so a decent quality removable carry handle may be in order. You can find reasonably priced used Colt handles on the 'net. My local dealer even got a bunch in stock.

All that being said, BCM is an excellent value for the dollar. However, I have had good luck with RRA. I have four of their uppers and have never had any issues running M193 or M855 ball through any of them. I even put Mk262 Mod1 through one of them and it was quite accurate and no pressure issues. They are all M4gery's however, which I did the standard staking of the carrier key, replaced the extractor spring, and staked the castle nut. I have shot as much as 300 rounds in under an hour through my RRA's, without issues, so for the purposes of the OP, it would be a reasonable choice.

I hope that helps.

[tango-papa]

... Like it or not, Noveske isn't the answer to everything.

FYI - the word Noveske was not in this thread until you put it here.;)

[tango-papa]

To the best of my knowledge, the USMC does not issue M4's. If you're going to be giving it to him so he can familiarize himself with the weapon he will be issued, then you need to put together a M16A4gery and not an M4gery. I'm just sayin' ...

FYI - the Marines in Afghanistan are using M4's... lots of them.;)

[Bill Bryant]

FYI - the Marines in Afghanistan are using M4's... lots of them.;)I knew joining this forum would get me in trouble. Now I'm going to have to buy two guns, an A4 and an M4. :p (Now I need to think about how to discuss this with my wife . . . )

[tylerw02]

I knew joining this forum would get me in trouble. Now I'm going to have to buy two guns, an A4 and an M4. :p (Now I need to think about how to discuss this with my wife . . . )

AR15s are a disease....once you get one, it spreads and you end up with half a dozen.

[Failure2Stop]

I hope this doesn't get anybody cranky-

If your son is joining Uncle Sam's Misguided Children, the last thing he needs is a cobbled together M4. The USMC has been teaching people how to use the tools given to them to the greatest effect for over 230 years. He will be taught exactly what he needs to know, and nothing less. It is much better to have someone without training scars show up for instruction. As much as people want to help, they usually just wind up spending money on something that gets frowned at twice a year.

The $800 to $1200 you are looking at spending on an AR would be much better used to buy real stuff a warrior needs to survive and dominate in a rough and imposing country like Afghanistan.

Here's my suggestion, take it or leave it, I really am not going to fight about it- wait until your kid finishes recruit training and the school of infantry and makes it to his first unit. From there he can ask those that have been there and done the job he will be expected to do what kit makes the most difference. I will bet my paycheck they will not say its the AR their Dad bought them before Boot Camp. I recommend you sink that dough into the stuff that will help him win his fight, and leave the weapons and training to the organization he is joining.

[Bill Bryant]

I hope this doesn't get anybody cranky-

If your son is joining Uncle Sam's Misguided Children, the last thing he needs is a cobbled together M4. The USMC has been teaching people how to use the tools given to them to the greatest effect for over 230 years. He will be taught exactly what he needs to know, and nothing less. It is much better to have someone without training scars show up for instruction. As much as people want to help, they usually just wind up spending money on something that gets frowned at twice a year.

The $800 to $1200 you are looking at spending on an AR would be much better used to buy real stuff a warrior needs to survive and dominate in a rough and imposing country like Afghanistan.

Here's my suggestion, take it or leave it, I really am not going to fight about it- wait until your kid finishes recruit training and the school of infantry and makes it to his first unit. From there he can ask those that have been there and done the job he will be expected to do what kit makes the most difference. I will bet my paycheck they will not say its the AR their Dad bought them before Boot Camp. I recommend you sink that dough into the stuff that will help him win his fight, and leave the weapons and training to the organization he is joining.I appreciate your input here, Failure, but I need to put it in a context. Some questions:


1) Are you in the Marines?
2) Do you know what kind of "real stuff" a dad is allowed to buy and send to his son after he gets to Afghanistan?
3) Do you know about the research done after WWII connecting success on the battlefield with expertise with a firearm BEFORE joining the service ("Those country boys sure can shoot!")?
4) Do you think that growing up in the woods with a .22 has helped my son or hindered him? Have his twice-a-week trips to the range and countless hunts with me helped him or hindered him in becoming proficient with his USMC weapons?
5) Do you think growing up in the woods with an AR-15 would have helped him or hindered him?
6) What do you mean by "training scars"?
7) What's the difference betwen a "cobbled together" gun and one put together properly?

[bkb0000]

F2S is refering to the fact that the military has a training method they want recruits to follow, and having to un-learn habits picked up before the military can hinder the proper developement of a recruits BRM skills.

i'd never fired a semi-auto rifle before i joined- it took a loooong time, believe it or not, for me to not pick my face up off the stock and reach for the bolt lever after every shot fired. really screwed me up. for example.

however- there is something to be said for weapon familiarity... i think getting some good field-strip/clean/trigger time on an AR before joining would be really beneficial. just make sure he's doing it all the USMC way.. i imagine you can find a book on marine corps BRM somewhere.

as far as the weapon, my own ranking, using your comparison method:

noveske and KAC are the dakota arms (i'm just using your reference, i dont actually know who dakota arms is) of ARs.. Colt/LMT/sabre are the remington 700 of ARs, and bushmaster/dpms/olyarms are the gun you get for free with an oil change. CMMG is bottom of the "professional grade" category, and stag is at the top of the "home-owner model" category. in my opinion.

[Iraqgunz]

The main issued weapon is the M16A4, but there are quite a few M4's out there as well. The manual of arms is still the same. Though personally I would let him learn it the USMC way rather than picking up some bad habit they will break him of.


To the best of my knowledge, the USMC does not issue M4's. If you're going to be giving it to him so he can familiarize himself with the weapon he will be issued, then you need to put together a M16A4gery and not an M4gery. I'm just sayin' ...

[Bill Bryant]

I would let him learn it the USMC way rather than picking up some bad habit they will break him of.So don't let him shoot any gun at all before boot camp, or just don't let him shoot anything on the AR-15 platform, or what? Has shooting his 10/22 constantly since he was nine years old been a good thing or a bad thing? I understand the issue of having to unlearn bad habits, but I also understand (or think I understand) the advantage of having spent years learning to shoot well. Keep the comments and clarifications coming.

[Iraqgunz]

BB,

If you do your research and read some of what has been posted the cost difference between a BM carbine and some of the others mentioned is not as much as you think. Again, we are talking about a few hundred dollars.

[Iraqgunz]

I would KISS and allow him to learn the field stripping and cycle of operation. Other than that allow the USMC to teach him. JM2CW. YMMV.


So don't let him shoot any gun at all before boot camp, or just don't let him shoot anything on the AR-15 platform, or what? Has shooting his 10/22 constantly since he was nine years old been a good thing or a bad thing? I understand the issue of having to unlearn bad habits, but I also understand (or think I understand) the advantage of having spent years learning to shoot well. Keep the comments and clarifications coming.

[rmecapn]

FWIW, since I've already stepped in it ...

I entered active duty in September of 1974. I purchased an AR-15 in April of 1973. Other than making it difficult to stay awake in the field stripping class, I don't believe owning and shooting an AR prior to entering the military hurt me at all. I wasn't too proud to listen to the instruction given in any class taught on the M16, to include BRM. I still use the techniques taught me in basic to this day. Whatever bad stuff I learned prior to basic was left behind when I learned the good stuff. I guess it depends on the individual.

ETA: Also, I have been shooting since I was 6 years old.

[sholling]

I'm the newbie here but it looks to me like we're getting away from the fact that the OP has found a great excuse to buy an AR15. Yet for some reason he's being told don't do it. Whether or not his son uses it for 3-4 months before going in the Marines every home should have an AR. Two (1x5.56 & 1x6.8 SPC :D) if they can swing it.

Looking at the chart and the number of police agencies buying M&P15s and a street price of right about $1000 I can't see any reason not to chose one for a homeowner rifle. But I also think contacting Grant for a member price on a BCM based "kit" is the Mac Truck solution.

[bkb0000]

But I also think contacting Grant for a member price on a BCM based "kit" is the Cadillac.

we get special pricing from G&R?

[Iraqgunz]

I never said not to do it. I said not to do it for the reasons he wanted as did a few others. S&W M&P15 approx. 1000.00. A BCM build or the DD XV about the same. Pretty easy to me.


I'm the newbie here but it looks to me like we're getting away from the fact that the OP has found a great excuse to buy an AR15. Yet for some reason he's being told don't do it. Whether or not his son uses it for 3-4 months before going in the Marines every home should have an AR. Two (1x5.56 & 1x6.8 SPC :D) if they can swing it.

Looking at the chart and the number of police agencies buying M&P15s and a street price of right about $1000 I can't see any reason not to chose one for a homeowner rifle. But I also think contacting Grant for a member price on a BCM based "kit" is the Cadillac.

[sholling]

we get special pricing from G&R?No clue I'm just going by someone elses post in this thread.

Edit: the referred to post suggested member prices on complete rifles.

[Citpitch02]

I appreciate your input here, Failure, but I need to put it in a context. Some questions:


1) Are you in the Marines?
2) Do you know what kind of "real stuff" a dad is allowed to buy and send to his son after he gets to Afghanistan?
3) Do you know about the research done after WWII connecting success on the battlefield with expertise with a firearm BEFORE joining the service ("Those country boys sure can shoot!")?
4) Do you think that growing up in the woods with a .22 has helped my son or hindered him? Have his twice-a-week trips to the range and countless hunts with me helped him or hindered him in becoming proficient with his USMC weapons?
5) Do you think growing up in the woods with an AR-15 would have helped him or hindered him?
6) What do you mean by "training scars"?
7) What's the difference betwen a "cobbled together" gun and one put together properly?

Bill,

I understand you are trying to do the right thing for your son before he enlists. However when individuals such as F2S comment on your question I would take that advice to heart. In case you didn't notice, F2S is a designated "Subject Matter Expert" on the site.

To quote John Wayne777 (a forum moderator) from a different topic: "M4C gives some individuals the title of Subject Matter Expert because of their extensive real-world experience in elite military and some LE organizations where they lived and breathed combat and preparation for combat. This designation allows posters to have a good grasp of their background when they are reading the contributions of the SME's. If someone doesn't already know where Larry Vickers or Kyle DeFoor used to work, they could recognize by the yellow title that they are hearing from individuals who are eminently qualified to offer authoritative opinions."

I think that is the context you are looking for.

Your idea to reward your son for his hard work and to keep him motivated is well intentioned, however I think he would be better served if you followed F2S' advice!

Maybe wait a little longer, using that time to save for a better M4, and give it to him as a graduation present from boot camp! Then he'll have a quality weapon that he he knows how to use and maintain!

Just my 2 cents, take it for what it's worth!

[Bill Bryant]

Bill,

I understand you are trying to do the right thing for your son before he enlists. However when individuals such as F2S comment on your question I would take that advice to heart. In case you didn't notice, F2S is a designated "Subject Matter Expert" on the site.

To quote John Wayne777 (a forum moderator) from a different topic: "M4C gives some individuals the title of Subject Matter Expert because of their extensive real-world experience in elite military and some LE organizations where they lived and breathed combat and preparation for combat. This designation allows posters to have a good grasp of their background when they are reading the contributions of the SME's. If someone doesn't already know where Larry Vickers or Kyle DeFoor used to work, they could recognize by the yellow title that they are hearing from individuals who are eminently qualified to offer authoritative opinions."

I think that is the context you are looking for.

Your idea to reward your son for his hard work and to keep him motivated is well intentioned, however I think he would be better served if you followed F2S' advice!

Maybe wait a little longer, using that time to save for a better M4, and give it to him as a graduation present from boot camp! Then he'll have a quality weapon that he he knows how to use and maintain!

Just my 2 cents, take it for what it's worth!My apologies for any offense I've tossed out there. I appreciate everybody's help. Give me a few days and I'll figure out what this forum is all about. Let's see, yellow title means listen to this guy. OK got it.

[Citpitch02]

My apologies for any offense I've tossed out there. I appreciate everybody's help. Give me a few days and I'll figure out what this forum is all about. Let's see, yellow title means listen to this guy. OK got it.

No worries Bill!

If you'll notice my join date and relatively low post count, I tend to do a hundred times more reading than posting! That's what is great about this site as compared to others. If you spend some time searching you can find the answers to almost any question you have. And if you do post a question you will generally get honest, well intentioned answers without the usual sniping found on other forums.

You have the right attitude and will do well here!

Keep us posted on your son's progress!

Cheers!

[Failure2Stop]

Bill-
No offense whatsoever. PM inbound.

[Bill Bryant]

I'm the newbie here but it looks to me like we're getting away from the fact that the OP has found a great excuse to buy an AR15. Yet for some reason he's being told don't do it. Whether or not his son uses it for 3-4 months before going in the Marines every home should have an AR. Two (1x5.56 & 1x6.8 SPC :D) if they can swing it.

Looking at the chart and the number of police agencies buying M&P15s and a street price of right about $1000 I can't see any reason not to chose one for a homeowner rifle. But I also think contacting Grant for a member price on a BCM based "kit" is the Mac Truck solution.Who is Grant and how do I contact him?

[bkb0000]

Who is Grant and how do I contact him?

C4IGrant www.gandrtactical.com