PDA

View Full Version : FN 5.7



UNIT 6639
01-26-07, 07:06
Anybody here have one? I think I want to make that my next hand gun purchase.

I fingered one at my local shop, it is the lightest pistol I have ever laid fingers on!

What do you guys think about it?

Robb Jensen
01-26-07, 07:11
I've shot the pistol, it's a neat toy. It's not something I would use for self defense. It's like shooting a .22 Magnum but it's ammo is usually 2.5 times the cost of .22 Magnum.

I'll stick with 9 sillymeter, .357SIG, 10mm and .45ACP :p

UNIT 6639
01-26-07, 07:33
I've shot the pistol, it's a neat toy. It's not something I would use for self defense. It's like shooting a .22 Magnum just a lot more expensive for ammo.

I'll stick with 9 sillymeter, .357SIG, 10mm and .45ACP :p

I actually fingered the one you guys have in the shop :D , you were on your lunch break when i came in. Thanks for responding.

I have been reading up on it this morning and was brought to a screeching halt when i saw how much the ammo costs.

Plus at a little under $1000, i would rather pick up another 1911 with a bunch of bells and whistles on it.

I still wanted to get you guy's opinion on it. the descriptions on the net are exactly what you compared it to, a .22 mag.

Designed to defeat body armour, I doubt I will ever have a need to "Defeat" body armour.

I dont like to class my weapons as toys, if i cant carry it for SD its kind of a waste.

As far as a range toy, average barrel life was said to be 20,000 rounds, I think there are glocks that have had thrice that number through them and are still in service.

I guess you can chalk this up as a waste of space thread

John_Wayne777
01-26-07, 07:47
It's not something I would use for self defense.


You remember what the Jacksonville SWAT guys said about it at our carbine course, right?

Robb Jensen
01-26-07, 07:51
You remember what the Jacksonville SWAT guys said about it at our carbine course, right?

Oh yeah. "stop shooting me with that!"--bad guy

It's very weak and an answer in search of a problem. Might be good like USSS uses it, up close and personal for executive protection w/selective-fire. But for that I'd rather have a 10" AR w/75gr or 77gr ammo any day.

mark5pt56
01-26-07, 07:54
I had two, had the ps90, as mentioned, neat toy.

Dport
01-26-07, 08:26
I shoot my guns far more often for fun than I do for self-defense. So it makes a nice change of pace. That and it drives people nuts. "Whatcha need that thing fer?" "Is that fer killin' cops?"

UNIT 6639
01-26-07, 09:59
I shoot my guns far more often for fun than I do for self-defense. So it makes a nice change of pace. That and it drives people nuts. "Whatcha need that thing fer?" "Is that fer killin' cops?"


And I am just that type of guy to get one for that reason only :D , If I could only use it for double duty :( .

Dport
01-26-07, 10:19
I have an IOM pistol and the PS90. I've thought about modifying them, but why waste the money when they are just guns to be different? I have an Egyptian Hakim and a Russian SKS that I have, not for serious use, but because they struck me as being interesting somewhere along the way.

This site has a defensive tool mindset when it comes to guns, and I respect that. However, I wonder if some of us don't take ourselves too seriously sometimes.

John_Wayne777
01-26-07, 10:48
This site has a defensive tool mindset when it comes to guns, and I respect that. However, I wonder if some of us don't take ourselves too seriously sometimes.

No.

I have toys too:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/jwayne_777/junior25.jpg?t=1169829117
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/jwayne_777/Colt1903.jpg?t=1169829152

I own some guns for pure collector's interest. I own some guns just because I think they are neat. I have a particular fetish for mouseguns....

But I rightly understand owning them to be more about fun and enjoyment than about self defense. When it comes to carry, the mouseguns stay at home and I pack reliable weapons I have trained with extensively loaded with the best ammo I can find:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/jwayne_777/IMGP0033.jpg?t=1169829246

I am in favor of people buying and owning whatever they want. If it tickles your fancy, enjoy the heck out of it.

Unfortunately when it comes to the 5.7 there is always a group of mouth breathing troglodytes who insist that it is the hammer of Thor and start a pissing match about it. I have personally been set upon by these people who seem to confuse their favorite little buzz gun with particular pieces of their anatomy for daring to mention that it isn't the Hammer of DEATH...

When I first saw the cartridge I had my doubts about its efficacy. When I first saw the P90's magazine arrangement I had my doubts about its reliability. When the first series of tests came in it confirmed my previous fears about its performance.

...And then after having the chance to train with a group of people who have more operational experience with the P90 than any other LE entity in the United States and who have been in MULTIPLE firefights with the P90 and seeing them give the weapon a big thumbs down because the bad guys were saying "Stop that!" when you shoot them with it....

Well....I formed a less than favorable opinion about the weapon and the 5.7 cartridge.

As a toy, it is a fairly neat (though very expensive) one. As a tactical tool, there are much better options out there.

As long as people keep that straight, they will be fine. Internet fanboys, however, don't leave it at that. Thankfully there aren't many of those types infecting this site.

Dport
01-26-07, 10:56
No.

Unfortunately when it comes to the 5.7 there is always a group of mouth breathing troglodytes who insist that it is the hammer of Thor and start a pissing match about it. I have personally been set upon by these people who seem to confuse their favorite little buzz gun with particular pieces of their anatomy for daring to mention that it isn't the Hammer of DEATH...
And none of them are here, so move on.


When I first saw the cartridge I had my doubts about its efficacy. When I first saw the P90's magazine arrangement I had my doubts about its reliability. When the first series of tests came in it confirmed my previous fears about its performance.
weapon a big thumbs down because the bad guys were saying "Stop that!" when you shoot them with it....

Well....I formed a less than favorable opinion about the weapon and the 5.7 cartridge.

As a toy, it is a fairly neat (though very expensive) one. As a tactical tool, there are much better options out there.

As long as people keep that straight, they will be fine. Internet fanboys, however, don't leave it at that. Thankfully there aren't many of those types infecting this site.
And even though no one here is advocating using the system for anything more than entertainment, you continue to deride it. And you never miss a chance to tell us all of your second-hand stories.:rolleyes:

John_Wayne777
01-26-07, 11:58
And none of them are here, so move on.


????



And even though no one here is advocating using the system for anything more than entertainment, you continue to deride it. And you never miss a chance to tell us all of your second-hand stories.:rolleyes:

"second hand stories"???

What exactly is your malfunction?

I didn't attack you, or attack the decision of anyone to own a 5.7 if that's what they want to do. I merely explained why lots of people on this site are quick to mention it's problems as a defensive tool. It makes perfect sense given the amount of misinformation there is about the system out there in the various forums and given that this site is primarily known for its excellent information about defensive tools.

Why you are offended by any of that is beyond me.

Business_Casual
01-26-07, 12:38
Gentlemen, please. You are talking past each other I think.

As to the IOM, I had one. Great toy, fun to shoot, expensive as heck and ammo is hard to come by. Go for it, but be aware it is really expensive paperweight.

M_P

Dport
01-26-07, 13:49
????



"second hand stories"???

What exactly is your malfunction?

I didn't attack you, or attack the decision of anyone to own a 5.7 if that's what they want to do. I merely explained why lots of people on this site are quick to mention it's problems as a defensive tool. It makes perfect sense given the amount of misinformation there is about the system out there in the various forums and given that this site is primarily known for its excellent information about defensive tools.

Why you are offended by any of that is beyond me.

You're offering anecdotal evidence. I've heard stories of .45 ACP and .357 Magnum not doing the job. How many of us read about how poor performing the M855 round was? The point is that in testing the experts don't think it is a good round for defensive purposes. Anecdotal evidence means very little. You rail against those who advocate the round because their evidence is anecdotal and then present the same evidence in rebuttal.


For the OP, I've had an IOM for two years now, actually a bit more than that.
Pros:
-It is the most accurate production gun I've seen. I fired an entire magazine at 15 yards as fast as the sights would align. All 20 rounds grouped in an inch.
-High magazine capacity.
-Low recoil
Cons:
-The grip is LONG. There is one hell of a trigger reach going on.
-Try finding night sights.
-The 5.7 round. High capacity and low recoil don't mean much when the round doesn't do much damage.

I personally like the location of the safety. I think it is a natural location, but many don't like it. The trigger isn't a 1911's, but it is sufficient. I personally don't like the silhouette of the pistol as viewed from the rear. It looks abnormally wide and IMO detracts from the front sight.

Ammo price. No there isn't any discount ammo. Truth be told you're lucky when you can find it for $15/50. Normal prices are around $20/50.

I personally find it a fascinating solution to the requirements that were put to FN. I'd buy the equally poor performing H&K MP7, if they offered it. The cool thing is FN actually marketed their solution to the American public.

Obiwan
01-26-07, 13:53
JW777

That was quite possibly the most comprehensive statement on the 5.7 I have ever seen

Bravo!

John_Wayne777
01-26-07, 15:14
You're offering anecdotal evidence. I've heard stories of .45 ACP and .357 Magnum not doing the job. How many of us read about how poor performing the M855 round was? The point is that in testing the experts don't think it is a good round for defensive purposes. Anecdotal evidence means very little. You rail against those who advocate the round because their evidence is anecdotal and then present the same evidence in rebuttal.


*Verifiable* anecdotal evidence which demonstrates the same concerns that were found in scientific testing is certainly a valid factor to consider. Professional testing was done showing that SS190 offered the ability to penetrate soft armor, but aside from that offered lackluster terminal ballistics which will diminish the chance of the weapon stopping the hostile actions of an attacker.

Then add to that *verifiable* reports of OIS where the weapon was used and demonstrated in real life shootings what was foreshadowed by the scientific testing....namely poor penetration and terminal ballistics which added up to bad people who posed a threat not just failing to be stopped, but remarkably unaffected by the experience of being engaged with the P90 and the 5.7...

And what you have is a pretty convincing basis upon which to make a judgment about the efficacy of the package.

It is enormously more valid than posting a listing of different agencies and departments who "use" the P90 platform and thusly proclaiming it to be awesome because if it wasn't awesome these guys wouldn't be using it, which is the majority of the static I see when the 5.7 is mentioned on the various boards.

The *verifiable*OIS events I mentioned (and that Rob heard about from the same folks I did) are especially useful in combating the notion that the 5.7 does poorly in gel tests but performs wonderfully in real life...so useful that even IWBA guys relate the stories to clear up misinformation:


Posted by Doc Roberts on TacticalForums:
You might want to read the info in the link below, paying particular attention to the info posted by XXX, as his large agency has used and now stopped using the P90 because of its POOR terminal effectiveness in actual OIS incidents.


It is true that no weapon/ammo combination is a death ray...Not even an M4 carbine loaded with heavy OTM bullets. We cannot predict what any single round will do in any given situation, but we do have enough knowledge and testing to make some broad statements, namely that lightweight high velocity rounds which offer shallow penetration and a small permanent crush cavity are not as likely to stop the hostile actions of a bad guy as other more conventional rounds that are on the market in other weapons platforms.

An M4 loaded with heavy OTM rounds is not a death ray...but in scientific testing it shows some of the best performance that can be squeezed out of the 5.56 cartridge and in *verifiable* shooting incidents both in LE and in the SF community it has provided very good results. Taken together those two facts make it a wise choice for the defense minded individual.

That is, I submit, much different than the vast majority of internet lore (which is usually is thin enough to not even qualify as anecdotal evidence...)that surrounds the performance of the 5.7.

Groups like the Secret Service and SWAT teams choose weapons for various reasons and purposes. They are constantly weighing different trade-offs in their selections because of the environment they face. The previously mentioned SWAT team, for instance, does not use the heavy 5.56 rounds that offer such good performance for others. They instead use a 40 grain hollowpoint round in their 10" carbines because they often do dual entries and are concerned about accidental blue on blue fire if a gunfight erupts. They have done extensive testing and concluded that the 40 grain HP round offers them the best compromise of ballistic performance and officer safety.

It would be a mistake for the defense minded individual to thusly assume that because this SWAT team uses that 40 grain JHP round that it is the hammer of Thor...It plainly isn't. There are better performing 5.56 rounds on the market and since I as an individual don't have to worry about making dual entry on some crack dealer's crib, the calculation that determines my choice should be much different.

That is the piece of thinking that the 5.7 fanboys miss, and that is why the message needs to be repeated when questions are asked about the 5.7.

As a toy, if it tickles your fancy then buy one and enjoy the heck out of it. The FiveseveN pistol and the P90/PS90 are neat looking weapons. They offer very little recoil and if you put a better sight on the P90/PS90 than the built in reflex sight you can have some (expensive) fun with them. I think it is neat that FN sells these things to civilians as opposed to doing the PC "LE/Mil ONLY" thing with them that some other companies would do.

As a defensive tool, however, there are better options out there and I would encourage making different choices.

Dport
01-26-07, 17:03
That is the piece of thinking that the 5.7 fanboys miss, and that is why the message needs to be repeated when questions are asked about the 5.7.
I would agree if there were 5.7 fanboys present. However, there are none about.


As a defensive tool, however, there are better options out there and I would encourage making different choices.
I agree with you.

I'm still trying to figure out why you felt the need to go on a diatribe about the 5.7 round when I said:

I have an IOM pistol and the PS90. I've thought about modifying them, but why waste the money when they are just guns to be different? I have an Egyptian Hakim and a Russian SKS that I have, not for serious use, but because they struck me as being interesting somewhere along the way.

This site has a defensive tool mindset when it comes to guns, and I respect that. However, I wonder if some of us don't take ourselves too seriously sometimes.
I wasn't referring to anyone in particular. However, you seemed the need to both defend yourself and then go on and on about the lack of merit of the 5.7 round.

And in your latest post you still go on and on. You asked what my malfunction was, but I have to wonder what your malfunction is when you keep going on and on about a point when everyone here agrees with your point?

To educate 5.7 fanboys who aren't on this site?

ETA: I don't want to go down the anecdotal evidence road again. I believe the ground was covered in the bolt failure thread a couple of weeks ago. Even verifiable anecdotal evidence is just that, anecdotal. Good statistical data is very hard to come by and often unreliable. Anecdotal evidence doesn't meet any scientific standard, unless you were able to do surveys IAW proper research methods. So, we are left with gelatin testing to judge the relative performance of rounds. Five point seven has been found lacking in those tests and that's all that really needs to be said.

Striker5
01-26-07, 20:16
But...but...the terrs drop like bricks when I shoot 'em with the 5.7 in Counterstrike:D .

John_Wayne777
01-26-07, 20:57
I'm still trying to figure out why you felt the need to go on a diatribe about the 5.7 round when I said:


While you may know the entire 5.7 backstory, the OP may not. I used your last line as a basis to show that I own toys too, and I really enjoy them despite the fact that I have much "better" weapons available to me.

When it comes to serious purposes, however, I pick the better options.



I wasn't referring to anyone in particular.


Neither was I. You weren't included in the "mouth breathing troglodyte" group. Other people out there in internetland (some of which will find their way here sooner or later...) are.



However, you seemed the need to both defend yourself and then go on and on about the lack of merit of the 5.7 round.


I wasn't "defending"....I was informing. The OP asked what people thought of the FN 5.7. I said what I thought and why I thought it, attempted to explain some of the misinformation that is out in internetland about it, and attempted to explain that even if he ultimately concluded that he didn't want to carry one as a primary defensive arm if he had the money and inclination for a new toy that he should go for it if that's what he really wanted to do, because even some of us defensive tool minded folks have a healthy taste for toys too...

That's it.

No malice aimed at anybody....which is why I was surprised to see someone react as if they were offended....

Dport
01-27-07, 07:45
Nevermind, I really just don't give a shit.

UNIT 6639
02-01-07, 06:38
Thanks everyone who replied, I started this thread with the intention of getting reviews both negative and positive.

I got both, this forum and a little research helped me to decide that this particular pistol is not for me, just something I was attracted to.

If I had money to burn, I would buy one, I dont so I wont. I didnt intend to cause us to argue over the pro's and cons of this pistol.

Thank you guys for responding, alot of great info was given from all!

SinnFéinM1911
02-01-07, 07:32
If you have any questions feel free to email me or call. Ill try and give you what we know and let you make the call.

Brett

ShipWreck
03-04-07, 17:52
U can find them in the $700-something range if U look around hard enough. I think if they were $500 or so, I'd get one for sure. For now, I'll just be happy w/ my PS90.

Shihan
03-05-07, 02:34
I have both a 5.7 and a PS90, when I got the 5.7 it had a cracked barrell right under the FN inspection stamp(aint that a bitch!) they put a new barrel on it and sent it back with a broken extractor. So after some calculated bitiching to FN's VP they sent me a case of free ammo. Since then I have had ZERO failures of any kind with either weapon and it is fun as hell to shoot. Ammo can be had for 17.50 a box of 50 if you look hard enough, which equates to what we are paying for 5.56/.223 these days. Im no balistics expert but I dont think anypne wants to get hit by one of the rounds and there are some very high profile units around the world using the 5.7 round. Some say its just a .22, but that is what was said of the M-16 when it came out.
Would I carry the round for self defense? YES, but I prefer a 1911 chambered in .45 and a M4. ONe other thing I would much prefer to carry the restricted ball round than the hollowpoint and would nerver carry the sporting tip.

trio
03-05-07, 06:48
i had one, and it was really, really fun to shoot....it just wasnt as financially as feasible as it could have been...plus the profile of the gun and sights made it less feasible for carry....still....very, very fun

MerQ
03-11-07, 21:29
I have one as well and it's a fun pistol to shoot. As someone else stated you can mostly like put shots on target faster than most pistols. It's great if you live somewhere where ammo is always readily available and have the funds to support the 5.7 habit. It's not one of the guns I primarily carry (USP 45C/ USP 40C) but if it was the closest thing between me and an intruder you can believe I would use it. Sometimes shot placement is just as important as round size. I'm sure somewhere in a grave is someone dead by .22 LR.

In the end if you like it then buy it. In reality it is a really expensive pistol and you could get a decent AR style weapon for the same money.