overwhelmed with ACOG choices

[mtdawg169]

OK, I'm interested in getting an ACOG, but know nothing about them. I'm astounded at the number of models and could use a little advice / direction.

I think I'd like something in the 3 - 4X range with a crosshair and BDC reticle. I've been thinking about one of the NSN models, but the long eye releif compact has me curious too. Essentially, I'm looking for something that would work well from CQB ranges out to 200 meters or so. I don't get to shoot much beyond that.

Question 1: what is the Bindon Aiming Concept really? Do I need it?

#2: How does the chevron reticle work for precision shooting? or, what's your favorite reticle and why?

Thanks for any help you can offer.

[shark31]

-I like the TA31 with a donut for speed up close and long distance accuracy past 300m
-The TA11 is really heavy for what it is, but better eye relief and slightly quicker than the TA31 with a donut
-The compact 1.5 is really quick, lightweight, with great eye relief, but not that precise and hardly any magnification (I would rather have a Tripower). The other compacts I feel either have too poor eye relief or have a reticle that's too big for the magnification
-The NSN has the most precise aiming, but no BAC and is slightly slower than those listed above
-The chevron is a good comprimise between the speed of the donut and the finer crosshairs of the NSN, but the "precision" part of the reticle (chevron) is for shots inside of 300m and I personally don't need much precision in that range, I would rather have speed



While I haven't shot it, the new TA33 R8 would be my choice based on your wanting more accuaracy. I played with it extensively at SHOT and was very impressed. It had all the good features:
-long eye relief
-3x
-BDC
-lightweight
-chevron reticle

If they ever make one with a donut, I'll be all over it like a fat kid on a bicycle seat.

How the BAC works:
When you shoot with both eyes open, the glowing reticle distracts your aiming eye, working like an OEG when the weapon is moving from target to target. When you stop the weapon on the target, your aiming eye focuses and you are on target. It will take some practice to get used to, but your brain does it automatically.

[rob_s]

While I haven't shot it, the new TA33 R8 would be my choice based on your wanting more accuaracy. I played with it extensively at SHOT and was very impressed. It had all the good features:
-long eye relief
-3x
-BDC
-lightweight
-chevron reticle

If they ever make one with a donut, I'll be all over it like a fat kid on a bicycle seat.

If I didn't already have my 1.5x I'd be the proud owner of one of these new ones ASAP. As it is I'm trying to decide if I want to sell my 1.5 and get the new one, but I haven't seen the new one for sale anywhere and am unsure of what they are actually retailing for.

Oh yeah, and they already make the reticle of my choice, the triangle.:D

[jmart]

If I didn't already have my 1.5x I'd be the proud owner of one of these new ones ASAP. As it is I'm trying to decide if I want to sell my 1.5 and get the new one, but I haven't seen the new one for sale anywhere and am unsure of what they are actually retailing for.

Oh yeah, and they already make the reticle of my choice, the triangle.:D

I saw someone post a review on it. Very favorable. They paid $850 for the ACOG and a mini-ACOG LaRue mount.

[shark31]

If I didn't already have my 1.5x I'd be the proud owner of one of these new ones ASAP. As it is I'm trying to decide if I want to sell my 1.5 and get the new one, but I haven't seen the new one for sale anywhere and am unsure of what they are actually retailing for.

Oh yeah, and they already make the reticle of my choice, the triangle.:D


I never saw one with a triangle. The only ones I saw had the chevron.:confused:

[rob_s]

I saw someone post a review on it. Very favorable. They paid $850 for the ACOG and a mini-ACOG LaRue mount.
Any idea where?

[rob_s]

Isn't this the model we're talking about?
http://trijicon.com/user/parts/products1.cfm?PartID=557&back_row=2&categoryID=3
The Trijicon site says it's only 1.9" eye relief, which is about 1/2-1/3 of what the one that I saw was.

[jmart]

Big Dawg Tactical (https://www.bigdawgtactical.com/splashPage.hg)

Never heard of them, went to their website. They don't list any ACOGs, but they do list LaRue mounts. Give them a call if you are interested, the poster stated BDT hooked him up with both the optic and the mount.

We are talking about the 3x30mm mini-ACOG. Not sure what you looked at, but if it was the 3x30mm, that's the eye relief Trijicon advertises. Maybe there's an eye relief window and 1.9 is the min.

[mtdawg169]

Guys

Thanks for the info so far. I stopped by my local shop on the way home tonight b/c I knew they had a couple in stock. They were NSN models, one with the irons on top & one without. The guy in the store was not much help beyond knowing tha they had tritium in them. He informed me that ALL ACOGs had the BAC feature. I didn't bite based on the little bit I have gathered so far. I do like the fine crosshairs, I guess it feels familiar to me. The did not have any BAC models to check out.

Any more input from other users out there? I'd love to see a review on the new 3X model. BTW, what's the difference between a compact and standard ACOG? I mean functionally, not dimensionally.

[rob_s]

Found the review on TOS.
http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=18&t=312124&page=1

mtdawg169, all ACOGs work on the BAC principal, it's just that some work better than others. I would stay away from any of the crosshair models personally, depending on what you're wanting to do with the optic. If you're truly looking for an all-purpose optic, the ACOGs are a fantastic choice. If you're just looking for a 200 yard+ optic I would choose something else.

Stick to the donut, chevron, or triangle (my personal favorite) if you want to really get all the potential performance out of any ACOG you choose.

[Razorhunter]

I too am stuck with the same dilemma, and cannot decide on an ACOG to buy.
I would like to ask everyone or anyone who knows, HOW MANY ACOGS are considered to be "NSN" models, that the military uses?
So far, in all my research, I have only seen ONE model with an "NSN" designation, and that is the TA01-NSN with AMBER colored cross hair reticle.

I just am scratching my head wondering why everyone on the forums says to stay away from the cross hair reticle, but the military is only ordering these models, so something has got to be up.
Either I'm misunderstanding something, or the military is solely using ACOGS for long distance precision shooting.
I guess my question would be: Is the military using the chevron and donut reticles too???
Just curious.
Thanks to all who have responded.

I too thought I ONLY could shoot the cross hair reticle, but the more I think about it, and the more research I do, the more the chevron and donut reticles are growing on me...

Still can't decide if I want a 3 or 4 power though???

[mtdawg169]

Found the review on TOS.
http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=18&t=312124&page=1

mtdawg169, all ACOGs work on the BAC principal, it's just that some work better than others. I would stay away from any of the crosshair models personally, depending on what you're wanting to do with the optic. If you're truly looking for an all-purpose optic, the ACOGs are a fantastic choice. If you're just looking for a 200 yard+ optic I would choose something else.

Stick to the donut, chevron, or triangle (my personal favorite) if you want to really get all the potential performance out of any ACOG you choose.

Thanks Rob, that's good advice. I definitely want an all pupose optic. I hadn't thought about it like that. Mostly because I have not gotten my hands on a model with anything but a crosshair. I'm familiar with standard scope reticles, so it's easier to gravitate towards what you're familiar with. I'm on the hunt for a chevron or triangle.

Question, how precise can you be with one of those? How do find yourself using it? Do you use the point for precision at longer distances and just use the whole triangle to get hits up close & fast?

[jmart]

I too am stuck with the same dilemma, and cannot decide on an ACOG to buy.
I would like to ask everyone or anyone who knows, HOW MANY ACOGS are considered to be "NSN" models, that the military uses?
So far, in all my research, I have only seen ONE model with an "NSN" designation, and that is the TA01-NSN with AMBER colored cross hair reticle.

I just am scratching my head wondering why everyone on the forums says to stay away from the cross hair reticle, but the military is only ordering these models, so something has got to be up.
Either I'm misunderstanding something, or the military is solely using ACOGS for long distance precision shooting.
I guess my question would be: Is the military using the chevron and donut reticles too???
Just curious.
Thanks to all who have responded.

I too thought I ONLY could shoot the cross hair reticle, but the more I think about it, and the more research I do, the more the chevron and donut reticles are growing on me...

Still can't decide if I want a 3 or 4 power though???

Note that some of the newer models that the Mil is ordering include provisions for mounting a Doctor Optik up top to take care of the CQB scenario. It's an attempt, but mounting it as high as they do, I still think and Eotech or Aimpoint is better for that role.

The new 4x (TA31RCO??? IIRC) has a quasi-milling type reticle, at least on the horizontal scale. Probbaly useful if you are working in a team.

The full sized models do cost several hundred doallars more and they are obviously larger. If weight and balance are high on your priority list, a compact will work better.

A .223 shoots pretty flat out to 250 or so, so I don't see much of a disadvantage between the donut or a chevron. A triangle will cover more of the target but it will stand out more for quick, up close targets. Once you attempt to reach out, then you need the finer cross hair reticle and that's where the BDC reticle comes into its own.

[STLRN]

Of common reticles on ACOGS the circle and the dot are the fastest, the chevron and the triangle are almost as fast, but since it is easier to impose a circle on a target, they are a bit slower. I always prefer the open reticle, the circle and the chevron, over the closed the dot and the triangle. As range increases (200-300) prior to the BDC scale taking over I have found the closed can obscure some of the target. If shooting the chest this will not be an issue but if you have to shoot at a head looking over wall, the close reticle will not allow you to see the target.

[Razorhunter]

Of common reticles on ACOGS the circle and the dot are the fastest, the chevron and the triangle are almost as fast, but since it is easier to impose a circle on a target, they are a bit slower. I always prefer the open reticle, the circle and the chevron, over the closed the dot and the triangle. As range increases (200-300) prior to the BDC scale taking over I have found the closed can obscure some of the target. If shooting the chest this will not be an issue but if you have to shoot at a head looking over wall, the close reticle will not allow you to see the target.



Hmm...

Does Trijicon offer a "dot" reticle (as opposed to the open circle of the donut???)


I have not seen a solid dot, I've only seen the open circled donut...

[C4IGrant]

Any idea where?


Yeah, I sell them for that price! ;)


C4

[C4IGrant]

Hmm...

Does Trijicon offer a "dot" reticle (as opposed to the open circle of the donut???)


I have not seen a solid dot, I've only seen the open circled donut...

Yes, in the compact ACOG models, but not in the full size ACOG's.


C4

[Razorhunter]

Guys,
I have looked at this link, to view the TA33-R8, and the Trijicon website shows this unit weighing a full 14oz! Is this correct?
I figured it would weigh less than that. ??? Is 14oz correct for the TA33-R8???

http://trijicon.com/user/parts/products1.cfm?PartID=557&back_row=2&categoryID=3




I think I have figured out the specs I WISH I could get out of a Trijicon.

1. -RED colored Donut or possibly the Chevron reticle.

2. -.223/5.56 M4 BDC for 16" carbine. (some say the 14.5" BDC lines work with a 16" bbl? , but I haven't personally confirmed this)

3. -Must be BAC with tritium at night, and fiber optics during the day.

4. -Must have long eye relief around 2" or so. 2.2" or 2.4" would be nice.

5. -The lighter the better. (I've seen some around 9oz, that were NOT compact versions either!)

6. -Prefer 4x, but might be ok with 3.5x or 3x. Really would like 4x though...

7. -MUST mount on flat top, and NOT carry handle.

8. -Would be nice to have a secondary CQB built-in, iron sight, or ??? (Not sure about the DOC, so not sure if it works)


One last thing, would be that it might be nice to have the option for horizontal stadia lines out ot the left and right of the Donut or Chevron itself. Some companies use them as a means to "lead" running or walking targets...


If anyone knows of an ACOG that meets the above specs, holla at me. I'll buy it right away.
So far, the biggest problem is finding an ACOG with longer eye relief...
I'm headed out today to look at a few ACOG's with the standard 1.5" eye relief. I'm not going to buy, but MAYBE, just MAYBE I'll be able to talk myself into ordering an ACOG with the 1.5" eye relief...
Grant, if you're reading this, help me decide on a model, and I'll order it from you brother...
Any chance GR Tactical will be getting any of the TA33-R8's??? If this was already mentioned in this thread, please forgive. I've just done so much research on ACOG's this morning, ya know??

Keep this thread going guys! It's a great one!

[MaceWindu]

Thanks Rob, that's good advice. I definitely want an all pupose optic.

IMHO the 2X (TA47R-2) is the best all purpose ACOG...it's the compact with a triangle. I have used it both in a CQB environment and hitting a 9 x 9 piece of steeel @ 200 yards. Accuracy is sweet since I have it doped at the very tip of the triangle.

Close in the magnification does not overwhelm you at all....I bought it from Grant (great customer service BTW and price) with the Larue mount and it's by far my favorite optic...:

http://trijicon.com/user/parts/products1.cfm?partid=197

http://www.mustangrange.jp/shin/DSC_8161r.jpg

Mace

[paulosantos]

Since you like the 4x model and you want BAC and you like the cross hairs, why not just get the TA31DOC? It also comes with the DOC sight on top for CQB and if you don't like the DOC, you can always sell it for a good price. If I was in your shoes that is what I'd get.

http://www.trijicon.com/user/parts/products1.cfm?PartID=501&back_row=4&categoryID=3

[STLRN]

Razorhunter

The reason the BDC will work is that the BDC is designed around averages and good enough for Government work. If you use a COM hold on the target you should be able to place a round into the target, discouting wind.

It assumes that the weapon is shooting at standard muzzle velocity, at a standard atmospheric pressure (sea level), with a standard air temperature (BRL uses 50 degrees F).

Beyond this the auto-ranging feature is designed around an assumed average human torso width, if you are subtending someone wider or narrower it will throw the ranging off.

There are several problems with subtending distance beyond the fact we are dealing with averages already. The accuracy can be thrown off if the target is obscured, standing in the shade, or at any aspect angle. When we subtend for accuracy for artillery we use a 2 meter bar and a surveying instrument we start discounting readings beyond 230 meters because of inaccuracies that start occurring.

[jmart]

Guys,
I have looked at this link, to view the TA33-R8, and the Trijicon website shows this unit weighing a full 14oz! Is this correct?
I figured it would weigh less than that. ??? Is 14oz correct for the TA33-R8???

http://trijicon.com/user/parts/products1.cfm?PartID=557&back_row=2&categoryID=3


That must be with the mount because the .PDF brochure lists the weight at just under 7 oz.



I think I have figured out the specs I WISH I could get out of a Trijicon.

1. -RED colored Donut or possibly the Chevron reticle.

2. -.223/5.56 M4 BDC for 16" carbine. (some say the 14.5" BDC lines work with a 16" bbl? , but I haven't personally confirmed this)

3. -Must be BAC with tritium at night, and fiber optics during the day.

4. -Must have long eye relief around 2" or so. 2.2" or 2.4" would be nice.

5. -The lighter the better. (I've seen some around 9oz, that were NOT compact versions either!)

6. -Prefer 4x, but might be ok with 3.5x or 3x. Really would like 4x though...

7. -MUST mount on flat top, and NOT carry handle.

8. -Would be nice to have a secondary CQB built-in, iron sight, or ??? (Not sure about the DOC, so not sure if it works)


One last thing, would be that it might be nice to have the option for horizontal stadia lines out ot the left and right of the Donut or Chevron itself. Some companies use them as a means to "lead" running or walking targets...


If anyone knows of an ACOG that meets the above specs, holla at me. I'll buy it right away.
So far, the biggest problem is finding an ACOG with longer eye relief...
I'm headed out today to look at a few ACOG's with the standard 1.5" eye relief. I'm not going to buy, but MAYBE, just MAYBE I'll be able to talk myself into ordering an ACOG with the 1.5" eye relief...
Grant, if you're reading this, help me decide on a model, and I'll order it from you brother...
Any chance GR Tactical will be getting any of the TA33-R8's??? If this was already mentioned in this thread, please forgive. I've just done so much research on ACOG's this morning, ya know??

Keep this thread going guys! It's a great one!

Well, the 3x30mm model fits almost all of your criteria, except for 2nd sight built in and horizontal stadia lines.

The RCO has many of the features you list as well. it will be heavier though than the 3x compact.

[rob_s]

Question, how precise can you be with one of those? How do find yourself using it? Do you use the point for precision at longer distances and just use the whole triangle to get hits up close & fast?
I'm as precise as the ammo I shoot (surplus quality) the most. I imagine I could dial in a bit better with my "good" ammo with a traditional reticle, but not much. I mostly use my carbine for matches and training, and have had no issues with it for those purposes. Yes, I have the point zeroed at 50 yards, and I know my hold-overs closer in. Base of the triangle is good for 25 yards, and the base of the post is good for 7 and in.

[rob_s]

Yeah, I sell them for that price! ;)


C4
Should I just change my direct deposit to go into your account, or what?:eek: