View Full Version : lmt or lwrc
carnage0014
07-23-09, 01:13
Hello all I'm in need of some serious help. I am wanting a piston system AR and cannot decide between the LMT or the LWRC. I have ready extensive details on both and read articles on m4c.net but cannot decide which one is best. I'm looking for something low maintence and easy to mantain as this is will be my first AR, I would like reviews with people who actually own these systems and please be unbiased as possible. thank you for your wealth of info....
RetreatHell
07-23-09, 02:27
Hello all I'm in need of some serious help. I am wanting a piston system AR and cannot decide between the LMT or the LWRC. I have ready extensive details on both and read articles on m4c.net but cannot decide which one is best. I'm looking for something low maintence and easy to mantain as this is will be my first AR, I would like reviews with people who actually own these systems and please be unbiased as possible. thank you for your wealth of info....
I just sent you a PM, brother.
-Paul
OldNavyGuy
07-23-09, 08:17
i have the LWRCI carbines, i like them because of the free float forearm quad rail and it's ease of removing for the rare maintenance of the piston system, for further detailed info please PM me.
what's with the PM's? is this something that is not allowed for open discussion?
I wouldn't buy either because the piston AR is stupid in my opinion.
But if you insist on it, support LMT.
1. Their guns will probably not break.
2. They won't blame their suppliers if they do. and..
3. They don't "astro turf" the forums with fake positive reviews.
You can read some of the AARs and find out for yourself a lot about the problems with LWRC. They apparently point the finger at their suppliers. What good that does for the end user I have no idea. :rolleyes:
Either will serve you well. I know that doesn't answer your question but I wouldn't turn around for the difference in the two. I would probably go with the one you can better the best deal on. Check SGC if you decide to go with LWRC as they have been offering some pretty good deals on them.
RogerinTPA
07-23-09, 09:17
As Markm stated, a piston gun is not really necessary. The gun was originally designed by HK, for a certain Tier 1 military unit. As far as I'm concerned, most gun companies who build them, are still in the developmental stage. Out of all the piston guys out there, besides HK, I would consider the LMT piston, to be the most reliable. You will never run the gun as hard as the unit guys, or enough to appreciate the piston design. Most want it thinking it's more reliable and less maintenance. It's not a self cleaning oven. Debris still builds up in the chamber area and the carbon is deposited in the other end of the weapon. Carrier tilt, is an issue with pistons, but it is being addressed. Many of the companies, still have too many issues with their product, to offer any significant advantage over a DI gun.
I wouldn't buy either because the piston AR is stupid in my opinion.
But if you insist on it, support LMT.
1. Their guns will probably not break.
2. They won't blame their suppliers if they do. and..
3. They don't "astro turf" the forums with fake positive reviews.
You can read some of the AARs and find out for yourself a lot about the problems with LWRC. They apparently point the finger at their suppliers. What good that does for the end user I have no idea. :rolleyes:
+1 I'm not a fan of piston AR's - I sold both my Hk416's
IMHO DI's guns are a better system.
My two "shill-ings" for what it's worth. I purchased a piston upper last year because I wanted something different. Though the fit, finish and quality was great I wasn't able to put enough rounds through it to make a real judgement. When I fired the HK 416 back in 2006 I liked it and was impressed when it came time clean it. It was significantly faster than a DI gun considering the amount of rounds that were poured through it.
YMMV. As a first time buyer I would stick with a DI gun.
Hello all I'm in need of some serious help. I am wanting a piston system AR and cannot decide between the LMT or the LWRC. I have ready extensive details on both and read articles on m4c.net but cannot decide which one is best. I'm looking for something low maintence and easy to mantain as this is will be my first AR, I would like reviews with people who actually own these systems and please be unbiased as possible. thank you for your wealth of info....
Of those two, I personally would go with the LMT.
Now, the next question is, why do you believe that you need a piston system?
C4
As has been stated by Doc Roberts and many others, piston ARs are only really "necessary" if you're shooting a full-auto suppressed SBR. And even for these guns, the piston is there to impart that last percentage of reliability under very harsh conditions and firing schedules. Most AR owners will not visit this part of the AR performance envelope, let alone live there.
And in terms of cleaning, it is not necessary to get a DI gun to "white glove" condition. Wiping down the BCG and running a couple of patches down the bore are pretty much all you need to do. The bigger issue is making sure you use plenty of lube, which is not rocket science.
My only piston gun is an LWRCi PSD in 6.8. It has an 8" barrel and almost no barrel past the gas block, so the piston does help to impart reliability across a wider range of ammo. Other than that, even my other SBRs with 11.5" and 12.5" barrels are DI.
decodeddiesel
07-23-09, 11:38
I will echo the question of the need for a piston AR, as well as the support of LMT.
CarlosDJackal
07-23-09, 11:38
I have an LWRC 10.5" upper that has over 10k in rounds. I just ordered the newer 12.7" M6A3 upper with the adjustable gas system.
IMHO, the only real advantage to a piston system is its ease of cleaning. I was seriously considering another DI upper until I decided to clean three of my DI guns. That convinced me to get another LWRC - mostly because I have had a lot of great Customer Service from those guys and they were available.
A friend of mine recently bought an LMT MRP 16" piston gun. It's a lot smoother shooting than my 10.5" piston gun. I do recommend that you decide if you really want or need a piston gun because they are pretty costly. IMHO, you can't go wrong with either LMT or LWRC. I own products that are made by both companies.
Good luck!!
i have an m6a2 upper for my sins, it's ok, 3 moa at best, not my go-to gun, i've seen the lmt piston guns and they look very well made but i've never had a chance to fire one.
the m6a2 cleans up very quickly after use, but if you want to get into the operating system to clean that, i find it a real pain removing the two side rail covers in order to get the top rail off. when i timed the whole thing it actually took longer than cleaning my colt
In my humble opinion, I consider the latest LWRC weapons to be among the best AR15 platforms out there.
Extremely well made with all high end parts. Exceptional accuracy and as relaible as any AR out there.
LWRC had a few growing pains in the beginning but the weapon that they put out today is impressive.
I own 2 M6a2'S and just got an M6A3.
Very satisfied.
http://http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p226/SRT-M4/P7060047.jpg
militarymoron
07-23-09, 22:13
Now, the next question is, why do you believe that you need a piston system?
C4
technical curiosity. but it's a 'want', not a 'need'.
by owning and shooting both systems, i can base my opinion on my own observations and limited experience with the two systems. i like finding stuff out for myself, whenever possible.
Another advantage to the LWRC M6A3 is that you have an adjustabel gas regulator. If using a silencer you can adjust gas port size and then go back to normal when the can is off. Solves a lot of over/under pressure issues when using the same gun as a supressed weapon and without. You dont have to tune the gun specifically for one or the other.
Also you can raise your gas port size when the gun is shooting cheap low powered ammo.
You can even close the gas port completely off and have a single shot rifle.
There are many high end ARs out there that one can buy. Direct gas or Piston. Im sure that you would be happy with most of them including LMT.
LMT DI stop screwing around and spend the rest of the cash on ammo and training/competing.
Cameron
As by looking at my screen name you might find a little bias----only because LMT made my first AR----
I think LWRC is a great company, however if you're going with a removeable top rail vs. LMTs mono-rail, get the LMT. The last LWRC's top rail I saw did not line up with the receiver. In my experience, 1/16" difference in rails can cause havoc if you're bridging optics or forward mounting. I do not have an MRP or LWRC, however, I think you'll definitely love the system from LMT. Apparently LMT's piston system is extremely smooth in cycling, not harsh like others.
The new LWRC guns run, and they run well. They have CHF barrels, and after an 800 round a day class, they not cleaner but are easier to clean. This is due to the carbon not being baked on the bolt and carrier.
DI guns are a completely proven system. LMT is a tier 1 company. Actual milspec and quality throughout. No batch testing of parts like some other manufactures. I have read an interview with John Noveske where he makes a strong case for DI being a superior system. His Switchblock answers the concerns of shooting suppressed.
At this point if you go with a quality manufacturer and properly maintain the system I would happily run with either.
+1 I'm not a fan of piston AR's - I sold both my Hk416's
IMHO DI's guns are a better system.
Any details on why you sold both HK416s?
Anything happen to change your mind about piston guns, since obviously you once invested in 2 HK416s?
thanks
I am currently running a Novekse N4 and the LWRCI M6A2. I love them both. The only thing I dont like about the M6A2 is the "Fat" quad rail.
carnage0014
07-24-09, 18:47
Hey thanks for all the input it is greatly appreciated. I did a little emailing to LMT and they responded telling me a few questions I needed answered mainly, one was with the tilt issue and they said that there would be some scratching of the tube but nothing that would hurt service life or operation of the weapon. The only downer is that they are saying shipping may not be until October 2010. My friend just received his LWRC and I was checking it out today, I must say that it was well built and and felt very comfortable. He ordered it about 6 weeks ago so I think they are all caught up on their backorders. So as of now I'm leaning toward LWRC and maybe in the future get a DI LMT or maybe save up a little more and get me a sweet noveske. THANK YOU ALL AGAIN FOR YOU INPUT THIS IS DEF THE BEST PLACE FOR INFO.
Hey thanks for all the input it is greatly appreciated. I did a little emailing to LMT and they responded telling me a few questions I needed answered mainly, one was with the tilt issue and they said that there would be some scratching of the tube but nothing that would hurt service life or operation of the weapon. The only downer is that they are saying shipping may not be until October 2010. My friend just received his LWRC and I was checking it out today, I must say that it was well built and and felt very comfortable. He ordered it about 6 weeks ago so I think they are all caught up on their backorders. So as of now I'm leaning toward LWRC and maybe in the future get a DI LMT or maybe save up a little more and get me a sweet noveske. THANK YOU ALL AGAIN FOR YOU INPUT THIS IS DEF THE BEST PLACE FOR INFO.
We have LMT 16" Piston uppersin stock.
C4
Mr.Goodtimes
07-24-09, 20:04
fwiw, i shot a LWRC at the range recently and while it was an accurate gun, the thing had a VERY harsh recoil. It had quite a bit more recoil/muzzle climb then my DI gun.
I got a LWRC M6A2 a few weeks ago. Took it to the range for the first time last weekend. I took my POF (P-415-16-P9SX-223) also to compare them. I only put 200 rounds through the LWRC, a mix of XM193, PPM193, PPM885, and Hornady 75gr TAP, but it didn't miss a beat. The trigger is heavier and rougher than I expected, which really stands out when switching back and forth with the POF and its Timney trigger, but I am sure that will improve some as I break it in. The kick is a bit harsher with the LWRC. Nothing severe of course, but I noticed it every time I switched to the LWRC. I don't know if that is due to the LWRC's piston setup, or the POF's brake, or a combination of the two. They both liked the TAP ammo best as far as accuracy goes. The POF was a bit more accurate than the LWRC overall that day, but the LWRC is brand spankin' new. I will do something about the trigger and head back for round two. As of right now though the POF is still my favorite, but it's close!
OldNavyGuy
07-25-09, 00:09
what's with the PM's? is this something that is not allowed for open discussion?
actually sir.., i just want to avoid the BS and flaming so many here want to do, what is so sad is this site is becoming what they say TOS is now.., what freaking shame !
I wouldnt buy a piston LMT, however Ive had two MRP uppers on order since January and last word was shipping around Halloween time. I own a LWRC (M6A2 6.8 SPC) and it is the last gun I would ever sell unless I planned to upgrade to a MRE finished M6A3 in 6.8 with 14.7" barrel.:D
RogerinTPA
07-25-09, 09:14
I wouldnt buy a piston LMT, however Ive had two MRP uppers on order since January and last word was shipping around Halloween time. I own a LWRC (M6A2 6.8 SPC) and it is the last gun I would ever sell unless I planned to upgrade to a MRE finished M6A3 in 6.8 with 14.7" barrel.:D
You should have got on some email notification list. I got on it through rainierarms in Feb, got the available email notification 3 weeks later, ordered that evening, on a sat night, got the MRP upper on the following Wed. They were completely sold out of their shipment of MRPs and Piston uppers within 2 days. I do that with rainierarms and bravo company when I need a certain part or gear.
Gotta roll with LMT........Piston MRP owner.......flawless thus far!
You should have got on some email notification list. I got on it through rainierarms in Feb, got the available email notification 3 weeks later, ordered that evening, on a sat night, got the MRP upper on the following Wed. They were completely sold out of their shipment of MRPs and Piston uppers within 2 days. I do that with rainierarms and bravo company when I need a certain part or gear.
I ordered direct from LMT as I get LEO discount, if a vendor couldve matched the price I got for everything I ordered I wouldve gone that route.
CarlosDJackal
07-26-09, 18:39
i have an m6a2 upper for my sins, it's ok, 3 moa at best, not my go-to gun, i've seen the lmt piston guns and they look very well made but i've never had a chance to fire one.
the m6a2 cleans up very quickly after use, but if you want to get into the operating system to clean that, i find it a real pain removing the two side rail covers in order to get the top rail off. when i timed the whole thing it actually took longer than cleaning my colt
You know you don't have to clean the piston system itself except every 5,000-rounds, right?
Why was my post deleted?
I wouldn't buy either because the piston AR is stupid in my opinion.
But if you insist on it, support LMT.
1. Their guns will probably not break.
2. They won't blame their suppliers if they do. and..
3. They don't "astro turf" the forums with fake positive reviews.
You can read some of the AARs and find out for yourself a lot about the problems with LWRC. They apparently point the finger at their suppliers. What good that does for the end user I have no idea. :rolleyes:
You're thinking of the wrong company.
Leitner-Wise Defense Inc and LWRCi are two different companies.
www.leitner-wise.com/
www.lwrci.com/
-Vic
LMT DI stop screwing around and spend the rest of the cash on ammo and training/competing.
Cameron
YES !
The LWRCi is the best piston AR currently on the market. I also believe it is probably one of the best ARs period (piston or DI).
Stephen
technical curiosity. but it's a 'want', not a 'need'.
by owning and shooting both systems, i can base my opinion on my own observations and limited experience with the two systems. i like finding stuff out for myself, whenever possible.
I think that some of these guys ACTUALLY believe that they "need" a piston AR.
Generally when some of these guys shoot a piston gun for the first time and see that there is less work in cleaning them, but think that they are the best option. They never take into account all the other issues that ALSO come with a piston AR.
C4
I wouldn't buy either because the piston AR is stupid in my opinion.
But if you insist on it, support LMT.
1. Their guns will probably not break.
2. They won't blame their suppliers if they do. and..
3. They don't "astro turf" the forums with fake positive reviews.
You can read some of the AARs and find out for yourself a lot about the problems with LWRC. They apparently point the finger at their suppliers. What good that does for the end user I have no idea. :rolleyes:
I know the LWRCi hater thing is kind of your "shtick", but let me know if you'd like to meet their staff and shoot one first hand so that you can form some valid, informed opinions. I'd be happy to get you an invite to their SHOT Show demo in 2010.
Stephen
You know you don't have to clean the piston system itself except every 5,000-rounds, right?
no i didn't; my m6 manual states every 2,000 rounds or once weekly under normal conditions
I know the LWRCi hater thing is kind of your "shtick", but let me know if you'd like to meet their staff and shoot one first hand so that you can form some valid, informed opinions. I'd be happy to get you an invite to their SHOT Show demo in 2010.
Stephen
Wow, that's awesome. Mark, if you don't take him up on the offer, there's something wrong with you. :eek:
;)
-Vic
Wow, that's awesome. Mark, if you don't take him up on the offer, there's something wrong with you. :eek:
;)
-Vic
I meant shoot one of their guns, not one of their staff;)
Stephen
The LWRCi is the best piston AR currently on the market. I also believe it is probably one of the best ARs period (piston or DI).
Stephen
My thoughts exactly!
LWRCI is the shit. Dont knock them until you have tried them.
When I bought my first piston AR 4 or so years ago everyone said that it was a fad and that the piston thing would pass.
Wrong Answer.
CarlosDJackal
07-27-09, 21:42
no i didn't; my m6 manual states every 2,000 rounds or once weekly under normal conditions
LOL. I've cleaned my piston system twice since I've owned it. I'll have to ask the LWRCI guys hy they changed this.
LOL. I've cleaned my piston system twice since I've owned it. I'll have to ask the LWRCI guys hy they changed this.
thanks, i'll stick with my current cleaning schedules. out of interest, i've never seen any value in tests where weapons are deliberately not cleaned for extensive round counts as it does not reflect real world usage i.e. no one using that weapon particularly when their life depends upon it would allow it to get into such a condition.
just my opinion
pleaforwar
07-28-09, 14:52
LWRC and LMT both make a solid gas-piston rifle. There are other options out there though. As you can probably guess, I am a fan of the Addax Gas Piston uppers. They utilize the PWS fixed-op rod design, which has a little less felt recoil than some of the other models because the action is more inline. Cool thing with the fixed op-rod is that it is easier to disassemble and can be used with more traditional parts (standard BCG can be used in the short-stroke conversion). If you are looking to save a few bucks I would definitely go this way too.
If you get anything from this, I would hope it is to not limit yourself between two companies. LMT and LWRC make some great stuff, but so does Adam's Arms, POF, Spike's, etc.
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