View Full Version : what did I do wrong?
Country DeVil
07-23-09, 02:06
I just finished my first AR. I started with a stripped denny's lower and just got my double star upper. my problem is that I cant get the bolt to lock open. I have tried with an empty mag and I have tried with pressing on the bottom of the "ping pong paddle" it catches for a sec. then closes.
I think I messed up when I was putting in the bolt catch spring in by squishing the end of the spring, on accident, and cutting a little off to fix it. I have ordered a replacement spring buffer and roll pin. will replacing the spring fix this or is something else wrong? I have not put a single round through it yet and I wont until it is working perfectly. thanks for the help.
Ill post pics later when I figure out how.
Any chance you might have mixed up your disconnector spring with the bolt catch spring?
Country DeVil
07-23-09, 02:14
yes there is a good chance I did that. how bad is that?
Country DeVil
07-23-09, 02:16
http://i832.photobucket.com/albums/zz250/jabtyler/IMG_6784.jpg
There it is. for some reason I feel like I am missing something, oh wait I cant aim. rear sight should be here tomorrow.
http://i832.photobucket.com/albums/zz250/jabtyler/IMG_6779.jpg
spamsammich
07-23-09, 05:35
yes there is a good chance I did that. how bad is that?
It can be very bad. The conical shaped spring is the disconnector spring.
FYI, and don't take this as harsh criticism, but I don't believe Magpul recommends using their MBUS sights on a gas block like that.
Polymer sight + hot gas block = potential mess.
Nice looking rifle though!
-RD62
FYI, and don't take this as harsh criticism, but I don't believe Magpul recommends using their MBUS sights on a gas block like that.
Polymer sight + hot gas block = potential mess.
Nice looking rifle though!
-RD62
Further, I believe they are rail height, not gas block height. (i.e. won't work)
Yep... MPBUS is rail height and not gas block. That sight will melt on that gas block.
Country DeVil
07-23-09, 12:13
thanks Ill be moving the mbus when I get the chance. anything else on the spring switch up?
yes there is a good chance I did that. how bad is that?
How bad is that? well it could be the cause of your bolt catch problem, and if you decide to go and shoot it it could be the cause of your full auto problem, have you run a function check yet?
Just go ahead and disassemble your bolt catch and order a new spring, you said you trimmed some off so I bet there is just not enough tension to hold the bolt open.
Country DeVil
07-25-09, 01:12
ok so I put a new spring in and its a little better but I am still having a hard time keeping my bolt open without an empty mag in there. could it be that my bolt came lubed up and I just need to clean it?
I ordered a metal front sight that is the correct height for the gas block. thanks for letting me know before I tried to zero.
spamsammich
07-25-09, 01:27
What do you mean by you are having a hard time keeping the bolt open without an empty mag? When you rack the action and keep pressure on the bottom of the bolt catch, does it not lock back all the time? Or is the problem that if you put the gun down, the bolt carrier slams forward? If it is the latter "problem" that is normal. Whatever your problem is, I REALLY doubt it has anything to do with the lubrication of your bolt.
Did you remember to install the detent with the spring in the bolt catch assembly?
Country DeVil
07-25-09, 11:41
I pull back and push down on the bottom of the bolt catch. it holds for a sec then the bolt slams closed. If I hold the top of the bolt catch out and pull back and forth on the charging handle I can feel the bolt catch move farther and catch. it stays open when I do that but I wouldent put my finger in the chamber cause I dont want to lose all the skin on my finger if it decides to slam closed.
yes the pin is in there.
can someone post a pic of the bottom of their bolt carrier where the bolt catch actually grabs the carrier please. I am wondering if mine has something wrong with it. thanks
spamsammich
07-25-09, 13:23
I think YOU are the one that needs to be posting pics. Also, what lower parts kit are you dealing with? You should post a picture of the lower receiver just forward of the hammer where the bolt catch is. I have a feeling your bolt catch is busted or out of spec. Alternatively, the slot that your bolt catch sits in could be out of spec, allowing it to rock forward and disengage from the bolt. Make with some pics or bring it to a gunsmith.
Razorhunter
07-25-09, 14:26
I have tried with pressing on the bottom of the "ping pong paddle" it catches for a sec. then closes.
I think I messed up when I was putting in the bolt catch spring .
Think about the above two statements bro. If you have a "bolt catch" spring, operating your little "ping pong paddle", then that means your little "ping pong paddle" would then be the BOLT CATCH itself.
Just saying...
Country DeVil
07-25-09, 14:35
ok here are a few pics of my carrier. It looks to me that where the bolt catch grabs it is chipped at an angle. should it be a flat surface to grab?
http://i832.photobucket.com/albums/zz250/jabtyler/Unknown-2.jpg
http://i832.photobucket.com/albums/zz250/jabtyler/Unknown-3.jpg
http://i832.photobucket.com/albums/zz250/jabtyler/Unknown-4.jpg
http://i832.photobucket.com/albums/zz250/jabtyler/Unknown.jpg
spamsammich
07-25-09, 14:50
it is a BOLT CATCH. not a bolt carrier catch. There is nothing wrong with your BCG from what I can see, I even gave a suggestion of what to photograph. Help us help you. If you can't pull the BCG back far enough to lock up the bolt face with the bolt catch, you may have the wrong buffer or spring in you receiver extension.
Country DeVil
07-25-09, 15:48
it takes me a little time to take pics I am working on a baby sleep schedule so here are the pics you were talking about earlier.
http://i832.photobucket.com/albums/zz250/jabtyler/IMG_6960.jpg
http://i832.photobucket.com/albums/zz250/jabtyler/IMG_6961.jpg
http://i832.photobucket.com/albums/zz250/jabtyler/IMG_6962.jpg
http://i832.photobucket.com/albums/zz250/jabtyler/IMG_6963.jpg
Razorhunter
07-25-09, 15:55
If you will step outside in all that light I see you have outside, (but get in the shade, out of DIRECT sunlight), your pics will actually show up REALLY well, and not super dark like that. I'm no pic expert either, but I have found that outdoors is SO much easier, unless you really know your cameras settings well...
Country DeVil
07-25-09, 16:39
here are better pics of the carrier where I think the problem is.
http://i832.photobucket.com/albums/zz250/jabtyler/IMG_6964.jpg
http://i832.photobucket.com/albums/zz250/jabtyler/IMG_6965.jpg
The carrier in my rifle has the same angled cut along the front of the carrier you show in your photographs. I don't think this is the source of your problem.
The bolt catch should engage across the bottom of the face of the bolt itself. When you engage the bolt catch manually, you should be able to look into the ejection port and see where it blocks the bolt from moving forward. On my rifle, I have found that you have to be sure to pull the charging handle fully to the rear and depress the bolt catch fully to get a solid engagement of the bolt catch on the bolt.
I understand the frustration of having a build not work when you expect it to. I went through a very similar situation on my first build which turned out to be an issue with the lower.
When troubleshooting, start with the least expensive parts (small parts, springs, plungers, detents) and then work your way through the whole system piece by piece. You might find it's just an out of spec part or a detail you missed during the build. Also, don't hesitate to take it to a gunsmith and have him look it over for you if you have any question as to the rifle functioning properly. Putting together an AR-15 is a fairly easy process, but you don't want to fire a rifle you are not %100 confident in.
Razorhunter
07-25-09, 19:56
I don't see anything wrong with that carrier, nor do I see anything wrong with any part of the bolt in the pics you posted, but then, they are all very dark photos.
The carrier photos however, are a little better, and don't show any obvious "chipping" as you mentioned earlier I believe.
As was stated above, the bolt catch should engage the very bottom of the bolt face itself.
Sorry if I missed it but you did you put the plunger on top of the spring before putting the bolt catch in?
http://nfranco.smugmug.com/photos/601680070_hysE2-L.jpg
is it possible you have a rifle buffer in the
reciever extension?
your carrier nose might look like this
that isnt the problem
is your bolt face making contact with the
bolt stop?
Country DeVil
07-25-09, 22:20
I think my bolt catch is out of spec. If I pull the charging handle back, with an empty mag in, the bolt catch does not move up enough to stop the bolt unless I press on the bottom of the bolt catch. when I do that I see the mag jump a little and the bolt catch grabs the bolt. I am ordering a new bolt catch and roll pin now.
Razorhunter
07-25-09, 22:24
Uh, that most likely means your SPRING is the culprit bro. Didn't you earlier state that you messed with it, and pulled it all apart?
I swear it's the spring and likely ONLY the spring man.
I mean, it's good to have an extra bolt catch lying around, so go ahead and order one, but I swear it sounds like your SPRING is the only culprit here.
Why would you have pulled it apart anyhow? Did you previously cut it down or something?
Just askikng, as I forget if you mentioned previously. Buy yourself some extra springs too, and for God's sake, PLEASE, by ALL MEANS, order some QUALITY lower parts such as COLT or LMT. I wouldn't even consider DPMS/RRA's/BM/etc.
Just buy the Colt or LMT parts and be done with it.
You can get Colt from Specialized Armament Warehouse or Brownells, and it's best to call LMT as many of their parts are not listed online. (although many of them ARE listed online however).
Country DeVil
07-25-09, 22:35
Uh, that most likely means your SPRING is the culprit bro. Didn't you earlier state that you messed with it, and pulled it all apart?
I swear it's the spring and likely ONLY the spring man.
I mean, it's good to have an extra bolt catch lying around, so go ahead and order one, but I swear it sounds like your SPRING is the only culprit here.
Why would you have pulled it apart anyhow? Did you previously cut it down or something?
Just askikng, as I forget if you mentioned previously. Buy yourself some extra springs too, and for God's sake, PLEASE, by ALL MEANS, order some QUALITY lower parts such as COLT or LMT. I wouldn't even consider DPMS/RRA's/BM/etc.
Just buy the Colt or LMT parts and be done with it.
You can get Colt from Specialized Armament Warehouse or Brownells, and it's best to call LMT as many of their parts are not listed online. (although many of them ARE listed online however).
yea I am using RRA parts right now but I did replace the bolt catch spring and plunger with colt parts and I am still having the problem. I did notice that when I put an empty pmag in the bolt catch is scratching it a little when the bolt catch moves up and down. thats why I assume its the bolt catch its self that is messed up. I am going all colt parts now.
spamsammich
07-25-09, 22:49
The problem could also be your lower. If the slot that the bolt catch sits in is too tight, it could restrict the motion of the catch. When you press on the bottom of the bolt catch with the hammer cocked, does it move freely or does it feel gritty? From the pictures, it looks like it is on the tight side and it doesn't look like your roll pin is in all the way.
Also, are you in california? I don't think your mag catch button is installed correctly if so.
The spring is what disengages the bolt catch. The magazine follower is what engages it to trap the bolt after firing the last round.
Remove the upper from the lower and insert an empty mag. Is the bolt catch engaged by the magazine follower solidly? Remove the mag and check that the bolt catch moves freely, the spring functions and the bolt catch is not binding in the slot. Reinstall the upper and lock back the bolt manually. If you look into the magwell you should be able to see what kind of engagement the bolt catch is getting on the bolt.
I'm interested in your problem because I had similar difficulties in a rifle I put together.
CountryD,
Out of curiousity did you use the correct roll pin when you installed the bolt catch? In one of the pics you posted it looked mangled as if it was either too long and had been cut down or it was not installed all the way. Just an FYI. If you used the wrong parts and pounded the pin through the hole you may have damaged the receiver. There is nothing wrong with the BCG. You may also want to try a new bolt catch as well.
motorwerks
07-27-09, 02:27
I want to know (I may have missed it).........
1. if the spring has been messed with
2. if the detent made it in
3. if that roll pin was replaced
From the OP's first post. "I think I messed up when I was putting in the bolt catch spring in by squishing the end of the spring, on accident, and cutting a little off to fix it".
He has since replaced it with a Colt spring and plunger. I would like to know what type of lower this is as well. I also want to know if he pounded that bolt catch roll pin into the hole or what. My guess is that there may be a problem right there.
I would get the correct roll pin, reinstall everything and then take it out and shoot it to see what's going on.
I want to know (I may have missed it).........
1. if the spring has been messed with
2. if the detent made it in
3. if that roll pin was replaced
motorwerks
07-27-09, 11:34
gotcha, maybe even try a little gun oil on the roll pin as hes putting it together.
A little tip from a guy that's done a couple of these. There are two roll pins that are always too tight (this one and the trigger guard) in my honest opinion. I always try them first but they always seem to be too tight so I chuck them up in my cordless and machine a little off one side at a time till they are a tight fit but go in a little easier. That and a little gun oil and they go in smooth.
yea I am using RRA parts right now but I did replace the bolt catch spring and plunger with colt parts and I am still having the problem. I did notice that when I put an empty pmag in the bolt catch is scratching it a little when the bolt catch moves up and down. thats why I assume its the bolt catch its self that is messed up. I am going all colt parts now.
I reread the thread and I am still not clear on if, after replacing the spring, you are still having problems with it being unable to lock back without a magazine.
Possibly way off base, but have you tried running it with USGI mags? If it can lock back with the ping pong paddle just fine, it could be either bad followers in your magazines, or it could be that the bolt catch is grinding enough on the pmag that the follower cannot lift it up. It takes very little friction for this to happen, by the way.
I had a similar problem with a LMT lower. RMAd it. Gene could not replicate the issue, but replaced the bolt catch anyway. Got it back, same problem. The lower just would not run with older pmags. I ended up shaving down the pmags on the spot where it was rubbing and it now works fine. Newer pmags (09 marked) and aluminum mags work fine.
Country DeVil
07-27-09, 17:26
Hey guys, yes I did put in a new spring, buffer, and roll pin. the roll pin got a little shiny when I was putting it in I think its just the angle of the pic.
as for now I am waiting on a new buffer spring. I did some research and realized I have a rifle spring and I need a CAR. that should be here in a day or 2. I think my pmags are touching the bolt catch and stopping it from moving up to catch the bolt. Ill try with different mags to see what happens. Ill post the pics when I get a chance to take them.
spamsammich
07-27-09, 18:51
Are you in California? Is that a bullet button installed in your lower?
hey devil,
i thought that might be it.
fwiw, i took a look at your
pics after increasing the brightness
a lot.
that bolt catch looks right
edges look square,
cant see any damage on it.
lower slot cut looks ok.
what i noticed was how the
hammer pin hole was
not looking good.
did you do that?
does that pin move?
side to side, that is.
Country DeVil
07-28-09, 00:07
I was looking at my bolt catch again today and it looks like it is not being stopped by the mag but that the bolt is not moving back far enough, by a tiny bit. I assume that when my correct size buffer spring gets here in a few days this will work better, Ill keep you all posted.
"what i noticed was how the
hammer pin hole was
not looking good.
did you do that?
does that pin move?
side to side, that is."
no I did not do that. my upper and everything in it have never fired a single round or had anything done to them. I got the upper put in on my lower and started checking everything before I actually use it. I have not noticed the hammer pin moving side to side but Ill look again.
oh yea I know I have been asked a few times and it is a denny's guns lower.
I am not always in Ca and my AR will have a bullet button installed before I take it there. thanks for the concern.
I am fairly certain once the correct buffer spring arrives you should be good to go. As for your LPK, if everything is assembled properly then you should have issues with the pins walking out. Just an FYI. The trigger pin is help in place by the hammer spring. Make sure that the legs of the spring are over the pin and that one of them is sitting in the groove. The hammer pin is held in place by the "J" spring which is located within the center of the hammer.
I was looking at my bolt catch again today and it looks like it is not being stopped by the mag but that the bolt is not moving back far enough, by a tiny bit. I assume that when my correct size buffer spring gets here in a few days this will work better, Ill keep you all posted.
"what i noticed was how the
hammer pin hole was
not looking good.
did you do that?
does that pin move?
side to side, that is."
no I did not do that. my upper and everything in it have never fired a single round or had anything done to them. I got the upper put in on my lower and started checking everything before I actually use it. I have not noticed the hammer pin moving side to side but Ill look again.
oh yea I know I have been asked a few times and it is a denny's guns lower.
I am not always in Ca and my AR will have a bullet button installed before I take it there. thanks for the concern.
hey devil,
i apologize for the nit picking.
the egg shaped holes were mentioned
in another thread, i think crocs was asking how they
came about. hence my curiosity.
i have heard from others that it might matter
in case you are running a target type trigger
with minimum engagememnt surfaces.
i have never seen that problem first hand
and anyway it is
not the case here.
your rifle looks good to go.
Country DeVil
07-31-09, 17:59
so I got a car length spring in there and it is working perfectly. thanks for all the help. I got a front sight from midwest that is gas block height, and its metal so I should be good to go for a little while.
Up next is a scope, an ambi charging handle, and a FSC556 from primary weapons.
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