View Full Version : KISS rifle Mandatory Upgrades/Mods
Hey All,
After a year with my M&P15 I have decided that I am leaning more towards keeping the rifle a KISS as I am more then happy with it's performance, and I feel like all the add ons offered in the AR world are more aesthetic for most people then they are functional (no offense). The reason for this thought is that after 1500 rounds through my gun, I still feel like I have another 1000 or so to go before my muscle memory regarding site picture, fore end grip, ext come completely natural. I'm getting better but the last thing I want to do is add say a fore end grip, or another button, or an optic that I then have to learn.
I do however want to make sure that the gun functions at peak performance. What are some of the mandatory upgrades that you all add to your KISS rifles? Consider the answers being directed towards the rookie community.
For me a Keep It Simple Stupid rifle has the following;
1:7 Chrome Lined Barrel
Flat top upper with AIMPOINT and BIS
SF white light
Redi-Mod (backup mag on the gun)
Sling
What about mechanical additions?
For me a Keep It Simple Stupid rifle has the following;
1:7 Chrome Lined Barrel
Flat top upper with AIMPOINT and BIS
SF white light
Redi-Mod (backup mag on the gun)
Sling
Agree.
A red dot optic allows you to be more accurate and faster on target and a light allows you to see in the dark.
These are two MUST haves on ANY KISS weapon that could/will be utilized for defensive purposes.
C4
What about mechanical additions?
If I had your gun, I would add and H buffer or H2 buffer (as it is over gassed). I would also add a good quality sling.
Other than that, you really do not need to add anything else.
C4
agree with light and RDS.
I actually just wrote an update to my "basic build" article on my site that I'll hopefully get posted tomorrow with pictures. I think it wound up a perfect balance between quality, cost, weight, and function. Anything beyond this is gravy and/or fine tuning/tinkering. The optic/mount and lower are from Grant, the upper and BCG are direct from BCM, the sling is Boonie Packer and the off-gun magnifier is direct from Larue.
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/BCM/WEIGHT-OPTIC-X300.jpg
+1 on the flashlight, RDS and sling.
make sure the gas key and castle nut are stacked and start collecting quality spare parts just in case...
;)
Jay Cunningham
07-23-09, 10:45
This topic always gets on my nerves, but I'll attempt to remain dispassionate.
There are two concepts involved here, and they are different:
literal KISS
KISS as a concept
literal KISS = the notion that the rifle must be as basic and simple as possible. This usually winds up in the ultimate expression of a gun with A1 sights, a fixed stock, either no sling or a carry strap and no forward assist. This means the gun istself is as stripped down and as simple as possible.
KISS as a concept = a rifle configured to make life simple for the end-user. I won't rehash what the previous posters listed, but all of those items (CCO, light, "tactical" sling) make life simpler for the end-user in a variety of situations.
So, apples and oranges... you need to determine what "KISS" best suits your needs.
I have a 6920 that I'm keeping as KISS as possible--so kiss in fact that it is stock except I'm running a Vickers sling. Here are observations:
*The A2 grip really leaves something to be desired. It is far too thin for my hands (throws my index finger contacting the trigger on the second pad) and could benefit from texture. I have MIAD grips on a few of my other builds and it seems to take care of both issues.
*The hand guards are comfortable, but aren't long enough to feel natural and transition from target to target quickly---it feels as if I should be gripping the rifle under the front sight base. A DD FSP-style quad rail would give more versatility.
*The standard trigger guard leaves a gap that can rub your finger raw when shooting without gloves. In my hot and humid environment you get drenched with sweat and it reaps havock on the middle finger. Installation of a Magpul enhanced trigger guard would solve this.
*In low light, I can't see the sights. It is also somewhat slower for me to transition from target to target using the sights. A red-dot sight would cure this problem. I have an Aimpoint M2 on another carbine and am faster and more confident with it, though I've come to want a T1 after handling guns with them installed.
*If you can't see what you're shooting you shouldn't be shooting it. Therefore, seeing your sights (or using the red-dot) is useless if you can't light up the target. I'm rarely going to need to do this, so I'm going to cheap out and mount a Surefire G2.
*The carry-handle is a good sight, however it leaves no room for mounting an optic. The LMT sight would retain the characteristics of the standard carry-handle yet allow a co-witness with a red-dot.
Keeping this in mind, here is what my next build is going to be:
-BCM 16" middy upper
-Sun Devil lower
-BCM carbine stock kit with standard carbine stock
-MIAD grip
-BCM F/A BCG
-Magpul enhanced trigger guard
-LMT adjusdtable rear-sight
-Daniel Defense Omega Rail or Lite Rail FSPM
-Aimpoint T1
-Vickers sling
-Surefire G2
And the real necessary accessories:
Extra bolt, extra extractor kit, extra springs, extra firing pin, etc.
Moral of the story---I can keep it as simple as possible and it doesn't necessarily meet my needs, which aren't the same as your needs, which aren't the same as anybody else's needs. When you find something that doesn't work for you, change that with a solution that will.
Littlelebowski
07-23-09, 11:35
The more I think about it, the more I like the basic handguards for the "thumbs forward" (please correct if there's a better term for it) 3 gun style of shooting Magpul Dynamics is popularizing. Also, the more I think about it, the more I agree with Rob's concept as realized above.
*The hand guards are comfortable, but aren't long enough to feel natural and transition from target to target quickly---it feels as if I should be gripping the rifle under the front sight base. A DD FSP-style quad rail would give more versatility.
-Daniel Defense Omega Rail or Lite Rail FSPM
I'm sure you already realize this, but the part in blue doesn't really address the part in red unless you're using the Omega 12 that's on the DDM4.
Something else to consider, depending on your experience with mid-length guns, is that the mid-length addresses the part in red all by itself for a lot of people.
Also, the more I think about it, the more I agree with Rob's concept as realized above.
A lot of what I did with that gun, and the 6933 that I have kept conceptually similar, came out of spending a year with the AK and doing it "right". I shot my first matches and class with the only changes being comfort ones (different grip, extended safety w/ notch). I then was able to assess and address issues with the gun and potential accessories to add to the gun as I went. None of this was conscious, I just lucked into it and was able to identify it after the year was up and I found myself pushing past the wonder-rail ARs in the safe to grab the basic guns.
Of course, truth be told if someone is really interested in "KISS", a good quality AK with light, RDS, and sling is probably a better answer than any AR.
I'm sure you already realize this, but the part in blue doesn't really address the part in red unless you're using the Omega 12 that's on the DDM4.
Something else to consider, depending on your experience with mid-length guns, is that the mid-length addresses the part in red all by itself for a lot of people.
Precisely. If the two extra inches the middy offers over my 6920 cures it, I'll go with the standard 9.0 Omega. If not, I'll go with a 12.0 FSP style.
Thanks for clearing that up. I should have stated that in my first post.
Littlelebowski
07-23-09, 11:47
Of course, truth be told if someone is really interested in "KISS", a good quality AK with light, RDS, and sling is probably a better answer than any AR.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume you'd choose a 5.45 AK? Are you choosing the AK because of cost, mechanical simplicity, or reliability? Or perhaps an utter lack (compared to the AR) of addons?
This topic always gets on my nerves, but I'll attempt to remain dispassionate.
There are two concepts involved here, and they are different:
literal KISS
KISS as a concept
literal KISS = the notion that the rifle must be as basic and simple as possible. This usually winds up in the ultimate expression of a gun with A1 sights, a fixed stock, either no sling or a carry strap and no forward assist. This means the gun istself is as stripped down and as simple as possible.
KISS as a concept = a rifle configured to make life simple for the end-user. I won't rehash what the previous posters listed, but all of those items (CCO, light, "tactical" sling) make life simpler for the end-user in a variety of situations.
So, apples and oranges... you need to determine what "KISS" best suits your needs.
Kinda like Church Tongue or Porn Tongue?
To me KISS means basic and as a concept.
This topic always gets on my nerves, but I'll attempt to remain dispassionate.
You don't say! :p
Every time I see this topic come up, I think of The_Katar!
I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume you'd choose a 5.45 AK? Are you choosing the AK because of cost, mechanical simplicity, or reliability? Or perhaps an utter lack (compared to the AR) of addons?
Right now I probably would at least give the 5.45 more of a look, but in general no. I like my AKs in 7.62x39 for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is availability of magazines and (current silliness aside) ammo. Not to mention there are American factory loads in brass for critical use and/or if importation was stopped.
I don't believe that there is a reliability issue comparing an AR to an AK, given proper maintenance. That last part is the kicker. Part of the KISS idea, to me anyway, is also one of "set it, and forget it". I never once during that year cleaned the AK, and I never once gave a thought to whether or not I should lube it when I took it out of the safe. Other than a passing question when I started out, I also never toted a single spare part for the gun.
And yes, cost is a big part of it, or should be. Unfortunately we have some current silliness in that department as well. An AK should cost under $500, and an AK that costs more than that starts to enter into the realm of questionable, and when they get up to being equal in cost to a quality AR they've lost all attraction entirely. But a $500 AK with an Aimpoint H-1 and Surefire G2 in Vltor offset light mount (maybe even one of the new throwlever ones so it's easier to get off the gun) on an Ultimak rail and a BFG Victory sling is pretty much the definition of "KISS" for me. If Larue's Irondot plays out well (never got a chance to run one myself) then that gets even more attractive at half the price and eliminating the need for the Ultimak.
Thomas M-4
07-23-09, 12:12
A lot of what I did with that gun, and the 6933 that I have kept conceptually similar, came out of spending a year with the AK and doing it "right". I shot my first matches and class with the only changes being comfort ones (different grip, extended safety w/ notch). I then was able to assess and address issues with the gun and potential accessories to add to the gun as I went. None of this was conscious, I just lucked into it and was able to identify it after the year was up and I found myself pushing past the wonder-rail ARs in the safe to grab the basic guns.
Of course, truth be told if someone is really interested in "KISS", a good quality AK with light, RDS, and sling is probably a better answer than any AR.
rob_s I am eagerly awaiting your new article. I have been reconsidering my original set-up LMT 14.5" upper with KAC ras hand gaurd . Arms 40# BUIS. I have a Larue LT-150 aimpoint mount and I am in the process of buying a aimpoint c-3 or ML3.
What I am thinking about changing is swapping the Arms 40# BUIS to a Larue fixed BUIS and the KAC ras to standard handgaurd or a surefire m-500a HG light combo. But I am worried that my sight pic through the RDS and fixed BUIS might be cluttered. I have also read reports about how the m-500 has a short battery life does anybody make a LED conversion for the m-500?
Littlelebowski
07-23-09, 12:18
Great thread. Classic M4c.
I don't like Ak's for KISS/SHTF as to me and million of others they shout FOE instead of friend.
To me the simplest KISS is our (KAC) E3 bolt and bolt extension, as your not going to have much to do with it until you need a new barrel at 20-25k as whats more simple than a part that give 3x+ the lifespan...
I don't like Ak's for KISS/SHTF as to me and million of others they shout FOE instead of friend.
To me the simplest KISS is our (KAC) E3 bolt and bolt extension, as your not going to have much to do with it until you need a new barrel at 20-25k as whats more simple than a part that give 3x+ the lifespan...
My father and I had a talk about the physiological effect weapons choice can have just the other day. He mentioned his friend telling of his experience in Vietnam which the sight and sound of Thomposons literally frightened the enemy (maybe they'd seen gangster flicks?).
Americans are definitely used to the idea that the good guys shoot AR15s/M16s while the bad guys use AKs.
Thanks Guys,
So my philosophy is basically that yes the gun was purchased both for the enjoyment of the platform in regards to target shooting, the lower cost of ammo (at the time) vs. my other higher calibers, and of course defensive purposes in certain emergency situations. The last of course being the ultimate reason for choosing the AR, but also hopefully the one situation that never comes up.
I want the gun to be natural for me to use, and it has very much reached that point for me. So for me the KISS philosophy would be that I only add things I would absolutely NEED that will not hinder my learning curve, or add outside factors regarding ergonomics, weight, extra training ext.
Right now I have an MP15 OR with a two point sling that I like but may switch out, and a BIS set up. I also own the Surefire G2 and I use it for work, but am also interested in mounting it. I have heard enough suggestions about the H buffer (and Grant in particular seems to insist in every thread in which it comes up), that I plan on switching this out.
What about an extractor upgrade?
Regarding accessories, here are my thoughts: The Magpul MOE hand guard so I can mount the Surefire (all I want), and an Aimpoint M2. At that point the gun seems finished to me.
The_Katar my apologies, this is still new to me.
What about an extractor upgrade?
I'm still fairly new to AR shooting myself and my limited AR shooting hasn't yielded any extractor failures yet in 3,000 rounds. If it isn't broke, don't fix it. However, extractors are a wearable item. It wouldn't hurt to pick up a couple "extractor upgrade kits" seen here:
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-Extractor-Spring-Uprade-Kit-p/bcm%20extractor%20spring%20%203pack.htm
They are easy to swap out and it can be done in about a minute. Swap them when you wear them out. Also consider a bolt-rebuild kit. It wouldn't hurt to have an extra complete bolt in the case of an emergency.
Rather then make a new thread I will post this hear as it is relevant.
If you were to purchase a spare BCG for your rifle which one would you buy?
Jay Cunningham
07-23-09, 22:23
The_Katar my apologies, this is still new to me.
No need for an apology, dude.
:cool:
fair enough. But I hate being the new guy in the room that tells the joke everyone has heard a million times...;)
BillCutting
07-23-09, 22:33
I would rather have 3 KISS rifles, than one mall ninjaed out one. Just makes sense logically.
decodeddiesel
07-23-09, 22:33
Rather then make a new thread I will post this hear as it is relevant.
If you were to purchase a spare BCG for your rifle which one would you buy?
BCM, LMT, FN, Colt...
Daniels Defense BCGs are available from Midway for $149.
That said I don't think I would go with a whole BCG. I would just get a good HP/MPI bolt and firing pin as spares.
BCM, LMT, FN, Colt...
Daniels Defense BCGs are available from Midway for $149.
That said I don't think I would go with a whole BCG. I would just get a good HP/MPI bolt and firing pin as spares.
Is this because the carrier doesn't take as much stress, and therefore fails less (an assumption on my part)? Or is it for another reason?
Alaskapopo
07-23-09, 22:36
A total Kiss rifle would have a white light and a front night sight. Optics to make you a much better shooter and once you can afford one get one. But you can be effective without them in most typical short range self defense situations. I did a test on speed and accuracy of various optics vs irons and at ranges less than 25 yards the difference is nill. Most leo patrol rifle shooters occur at less than 25 yards. So basically a KISS rifle does not need to have an optic. They are nice and will help you shoot better exponentially as range increases. But like I said before you can do ok without them at the ranges you are mostly likely to need them in real life.
Pat
Alaskapopo
07-23-09, 22:37
I would rather have 3 KISS rifles, than one mall ninjaed out one. Just makes sense logically.
Not really because you can only shoot one at a time. I would rather have 1 well set up rifle vs several KISS rifles.
pat
BillCutting
07-23-09, 22:39
Right I can only shoot one at a time, but in an emergency situation with others with me that can shoot and know there way around a rifle, it would be good to be able to arm them if needed. Not to mention having at least one backup if first rifle fails.
decodeddiesel
07-23-09, 22:40
I would rather have 3 KISS rifles, than one mall ninjaed out one. Just makes sense logically.
:confused: It depend what your saying.
What do you mean by "mall ninja"?
If you're saying you'd rather have 3 mediocre brand (Bushmaster, DPMS, Oly, etc.) stripped rifles with A2 carry handle sights...then no.
If you mean you would rather have 3 LMTs with Aimpoints, Surefires, and slings as opposed to one SR-15 E3 IWS with a Shortdot, PEQ-15, multiple Surefires, etc. than I guess I can see what you're saying...
ETA: good points made here later in the thread, I agree that 2 "KISS" LMTs would be better than one decked out KAC...
I would rather have one well set-up rifle that I am comfortable with before buying or "building" anything else.
This is KISS to me:
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b200/decodeddiesel/1911alienstormpics010-1.jpg
ETA: I suppose if I had to get rid of anything on my rifle the LaRue rail, VFG, and SOPMOD stock I could do without.
BillCutting
07-23-09, 22:44
:confused: It depend what your saying.
If you mean you would rather have 3 LMTs with Aimpoints, Surefires, and slings as opposed to one SR-15 E3 IWS with a Shortdot, PEQ-15, multiple Surefires, etc. than I guess I can see what you're saying...but I don't really agree with it.
Exactly.
decodeddiesel
07-23-09, 22:46
Is this because the carrier doesn't take as much stress, and therefore fails less (an assumption on my part)? Or is it for another reason?
This is pretty much it.
When I was a unit armorer I was responsible for about 140 Colt M4s being put through an extremely aggressive pre-deployment firing schedule. I never once saw a BCG fail. I did however see numerous bolt failures including bolts crack, lugs shear off, etc.
decodeddiesel
07-23-09, 22:48
A total Kiss rifle would have a white light and a front night sight. Optics to make you a much better shooter and once you can afford one get one. But you can be effective without them in most typical short range self defense situations. I did a test on speed and accuracy of various optics vs irons and at ranges less than 25 yards the difference is nill. Most leo patrol rifle shooters occur at less than 25 yards. So basically a KISS rifle does not need to have an optic. They are nice and will help you shoot better exponentially as range increases. But like I said before you can do ok without them at the ranges you are mostly likely to need them in real life.
Pat
I would agree with this until your engagement occurs at night or in adverse lighting conditions.
Mind you though during my first sandbox trip my M68 was damaged and for 2 months while waiting for a replacement I ran just irons with a Surefire on my M4.
Hey, this is a KISS MY ASS rifle!
http://i561.photobucket.com/albums/ss60/cameron_personal/LMT%20CQBR/CamzCQBR.jpg
In reality a simple LMT SBR with RDS and a white light....
How much more simple could you get?
Cameron
BillCutting
07-23-09, 23:11
Hey, this is a KISS MY ASS rifle!
http://i561.photobucket.com/albums/ss60/cameron_personal/LMT%20CQBR/CamzCQBR.jpg
In reality a simple LMT SBR with RDS and a white light....
How much more simple could you get?
Cameron
Nice setup!
My Kiss rifle. Just needs a light.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v176/forty5r/Shoots/N4.jpg
Alaskapopo
07-24-09, 01:12
I would agree with this until your engagement occurs at night or in adverse lighting conditions.
Mind you though during my first sandbox trip my M68 was damaged and for 2 months while waiting for a replacement I ran just irons with a Surefire on my M4.
Hence my recommendation for a front night sight (tritium.) Not as good as an optic but good for low light engagements out to 25 yards. I love optics and would not have a patrol rifle without one. I am just saying that if your buget does not allow you can have an effective rifle with irons (night sight) and a white light. Of course you being in the military places much more of a need on the ability to shoot past CQB ranges. I am talking more for LEO's and regular folks defending their house from a burglar.
Pat
Alaskapopo
07-24-09, 01:15
Right I can only shoot one at a time, but in an emergency situation with others with me that can shoot and know there way around a rifle, it would be good to be able to arm them if needed. Not to mention having at least one backup if first rifle fails.
In my life I have found that when things are the worst you are usually alone. Of course I am used to working without back up 90% of the time. If you always have others around you can depend on then your argument holds water. Personally I feel that when the stuff hits the fan the only one who is going to save you is you and perhaps a little help from God.
Pat
Funny how everyone takes these things so personally.
Males always seem to have a problem with a guy that can do everything they can do, sometimes better, with less. The guy that plays with a $500 stick gets just a little more upset when he gets beat by the guy with the house cue. The guy with the $5k set of clubs gets just a little more annoyed when he gets beat by the guy with his grandads old woods. The guy with the Corvette REALLY hates getting beat by that kid with the Civic that he dropped a turbo into.
One of the best shooters we ever had out at SFDCC shot with a ban-era DPMS with a welded on break, a Trijicon reflex, and the gun otherwise stock. I don't even think the gun was actually his. But he was good enough that whenever he came out it literally became a fight for second place because it was a given he was going to come in first.
Just because one guy can make do with less, or chooses to make do with less, doesn't diminish someone else's abilities, assuming that those abilities are actually there. What I take issue with is that there appears to have developed this assumption that the proper tactical operator must have a FF rail system and a VFG. Clearly this is not the case.
Then there's an issue of cost. If you're in a position not to have to choose one vs. the other then more power to you, but let's look at the math.
$340 DD Lite Rail 9.0
$63 Tango Down Stubby VFG
$40 enough XTM and ladder covers to wrap the rail
$450+ TOTAL with shipping, tax, install, whatever.
Guess how much Randy Cain's 3-day Carbine 1 tuition is? That's right, $450. Again, if you can afford to do both then by all means do so, but a lot of guys can't and for those that can't they'll get WAY more out of 3 days with Randy than with any rail and VFG.
I do think that a lot of guys, especially those that consider themselves experienced and that they "know" what they need, would be well served with getting back to basics. Pick yourself up a BCM upper and throw some Cavarms handguards on it and see if you really do miss that rail and VFG. Test your theories. Challenge your perceptions. I bet you won't miss them one bit. Until maybe it comes time to post pictures on the internet. I admit my poor BCM is pretty boring and not much to look at. :p
The "KISS" concept, for me, is about evaluating each piece of equipment and the carbine as a whole and determining really and truly "do I need that?" and asking yourself honestly "what is that doing for me?" If you have an operational need for attaching lights, lasers, sound emitters, etc. to the gun then yes you probably need a rail system. Depending on your use of things like a suppressor and/or a switchblock you may find a rail system necessary or simply advantageous. But with the cost of these things, and with better ways to spend an equal amount of money, I think that most people should carefully evaluate whether or not they need them, and should Go Shoot the Gun for at least an equal cost in ammo before they jump into making the gun heavier, more expensive, and potentially more complex when they don't really need to.
Right I can only shoot one at a time, but in an emergency situation with others with me that can shoot and know there way around a rifle, it would be good to be able to arm them if needed. Not to mention having at least one backup if first rifle fails.
This would be my reason, and not out of any grandiose fantasies about running back to the safe to re-arm myself or being able to arm the neighbors in a catastrophe, but I simply find it better to have a spare complete gun (especially at matches, classes, and other shooting events) without all the bells and whistles than to have a single wundergun.
To use the example that appears elsewhere in this thread, I'd take two of my BCM carbines over a single KAC SR15 with Short Dot.
meisterhau
07-24-09, 07:41
The "KISS" concept, for me, is about evaluating each piece of equipment and the carbine as a whole and determining really and truly "do I need that?" and asking yourself honestly "what is that doing for me?"
The PRACTICAL KISS concept. I think you hit the crux of the matter perfectly.
In my case, I started with a stock 6920, and my wife has a stock BM. I wanted to add optics, so I ditched the handle. I added the M4s sight, because of the durability, battery availability, and I like the larger sight over the T1. I'm a bigger guy, so the weight is less a factor than it would be for my wife, who's less than half my size. In her case, we're evaluating the T1, as it may well be the better option. I did add the "extravagant luxury" of a BOBRO mount, but I like the QD and lower drag offered by that upgrade. I didn't care for the standard handrail, so I swapped it out for a MOE. My wife doesn't care for the MOE, but did like the larger ones from the Colt over the stock BM ones, so we put them there for her. I added a TROY BUIS to round out my sights. The BM still retains its carry handle. I don't care for the grip, so will be finding the optimal MIAD combo. If it turns out to be the same as the MOE, I'll go that route for future builds. She can evaluate different options to fit her preference, too... she doesn't dislike the factory grip on the BM, but finds the one from the 6920 slightly better. We'll put on what works best for her. I don't like the stock, but don't want to over-complicate. I'll be swapping out for a CTR. I have access to a MOE stock on another guy's rifle, but wanted to evaluate the difference myself. Depending on the difference that makes, we'll make a decision whether she wants to upgrade her stock. I'll be fabricating my own hand stop. I'd like to add a light, probably the X300. There will be a sling in the future - would like an MS2/ASAP, but since the damned things seem to be legend, I may go ahead and design/build something similar, at least until they are available again.
All of our upgrades are relatively minimalistic, and based on ergonomic and functional rather than tacticool. Do I like the look of these long, quad-railed beasts with all the whistles and bells? Yeah, I honestly do. Functionally, practically, for me, it's expensive overkill. Maybe on a future build, I'll go nuts with all the toys...
Oh... I did also pick up a redi-mag, which I did some rather drastic surgery to - now similar to a redi-mod. While I like it, I did jump the gun on it. I need to work with the rifle without worrying about it more first. I'm not taking it off... just didn't need to add it at this point.
So I suppose I should go back and ask myself the question - did these upgrades make my rifle better for me? M4s - hell yeah. TROY BUIS? Love the flat-top better than the carry handle, so yeah. MOE handguard? Meh... don't know that I shoot better either way, though I do much prefer the feel. Grip and stock should be here Monday, and I expect customization of both will help lock and index the rifle better. Add a light and maybe a handstop, and, of course, the sling, and I'm done - the build will probably be just that way indefinitely.
good post meisterhau.
Something I think is missing a lot in reviews of things both online and in print is "proof of concept". The_katar is great at posts like that because he states what he was hoping to accomplish with a piece of equipment or a gun, tests it out, and reports back as to how it all worked out for him. The thread on the 5.45x39 uppers is a great example of this.
Establishing the need (or the want) and buying the gear is only half the story, and frankly it's the boring half. How the gear works out for you and the analysis of the results are far more useful and interesting, to include revisiting the initial concept.
decodeddiesel
07-24-09, 09:44
Hence my recommendation for a front night sight (tritium.) Not as good as an optic but good for low light engagements out to 25 yards. I love optics and would not have a patrol rifle without one. I am just saying that if your buget does not allow you can have an effective rifle with irons (night sight) and a white light. Of course you being in the military places much more of a need on the ability to shoot past CQB ranges. I am talking more for LEO's and regular folks defending their house from a burglar.
Pat
Sure, I agree with you. Of any of the "mandatory upgrades" I think a white light is the only really mandatory thing so you don't have this (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=34767) happen.
to me (what little I know), KISS is about simplicity. I don't want to be adding any additional systems, that need to be installed, adjusted, or can possibly fail and impact the operation of the weapon system. a sling, a light, and RDS with BUIS can be considered necessary basics.
IMO, the demarc line for a KISS carbine is a rail. rails add complexity, weight, and cost. and with all that empty real estate, they make it almost compulsory to find shit to hang off it. or if not, you need rail covers.
I don't need forward optics or the hanger downer thingie to shoot the gun. I like fixed BUIS. I can hang a white light on handguards. anything else is gravy...
to me (what little I know), KISS is about simplicity. I don't want to be adding any additional systems, that need to be installed, adjusted, or can possibly fail and impact the operation of the weapon system. a sling, a light, and RDS with BUIS can be considered necessary basics.
IMO, the demarc line for a KISS carbine is a rail. rails add complexity, weight, and cost. and with all that empty real estate, they make it almost compulsory to find shit to hang off it. or if not, you need rail covers.
I don't need forward optics or the hanger downer thingie to shoot the gun. I like fixed BUIS. I can hang a white light on handguards. anything else is gravy...
If we are talking about a KISS that would be used for a defensive purpose, then an optic and a flashlight should REALLY be viewed as mandatory on a KISS (defensive weapon).
Why is this you ask? Simple. You cannot see in the dark.
Anyone ever take a "kiss" AR to a night fighting course (no optic or flashlight)? If you have not, would suggest doing so before recommending that they are a good idea as a defensive tool.
Saw a guy bring this very setup to a class once. Not only could he not hit the target, but often times could not even find it. When he did find it, he was slow on target (too slow). This is a no go in my book.
C4
Anyone ever take a "kiss" AR to a night fighting course (no optic or flashlight)? If you have not, would suggest doing so before recommending that they are a good idea as a defensive tool.
Saw a guy bring this very setup to a class once. Not only could he not hit the target, but often times could not even find it. When he did find it, he was slow on target (too slow). This is a no go in my book.
C4
This is totally understandable, and more common sense then anything. Especially considering that my gun has no flash hider because of the State I live in, so if I do fire it at night I probably should just curl into the fetal position after every shot and wait for my eyes to start working again...;)
My thing is that I see absolutely no point what-so-ever in me buying a rail system (other then the look cool factor, which I refuse to fall into) purely to mount a light. That is why I'm leaning towards the Magpul MOE.
Also to get back to Rob's points (things I agree with completely), I was talking to a local deputy who is also an ex marine the other night about this very concept. He runs a standard M4 with a carry handle as his patrol rifle because he is comfortable with it. He's trained, I'm not. I made the comment when talking about all the knick knacks available that I consider everyone of them to be 300 (or whatever number) dollars against me learning the weapon, because with my budget I wouldn't be able to buy that amount of practice ammo. He just laughed, and said he couldn't wait to bring that up to his department! As of today I have spent enough in practice ammo to have purchased a Troy rail system, a red dot scope with mount, and a foregrip.
Jay Cunningham
07-24-09, 11:50
IMO, the demarc line for a KISS carbine is a rail. rails add complexity, weight, and cost. and with all that empty real estate, they make it almost compulsory to find shit to hang off it. or if not, you need rail covers.
How does this make any sense? A rail just sits there benign - it's the simplest thing in the world. I cannot understand this line of thinking. Tell me you don't want a rail system, okay that's fine. Tell me that they add complexity and weight?
They add no complexity and sometimes railed HG's are lighter than the standard ones they replace.
They add no complexity and sometimes railed HG's are lighter than the standard ones they replace.
I think they add complexity based on the user/installer having more of a chance to screw things up, not to mention more attachment points means more failure points, which is often also part of the user/installer error.
In terms of weight, I don't know of any that functionally weigh less. reference (http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Ajl2UPK0UHPscHdzd2hlZ2hOUXNGblVaTWtaTkYyRFE&hl=en)
The DD 7.0 rails are less than the M4 dual shield, but add covers, even ladder covers, and you're over very easily.
I also think "simplest thing in the world" is severely over-stating the case. Snapping in a set of plastic handguards on a BCM, or just using the handguards that came with the gun, is much simpler.
I think what the guy you quoted was alluding to is that rails often lead to more trouble than they're worth if there isn't an initial need for mounting things. Rails can become like MOLLE and people think that every exposed slot needs to be filled with something.
Guys are going to emotively defend their position whichever side of the argument they are on. "I don't have a $350 rail, so they are complex and useless!" "I have a rail I think it is much better than plastic handguards!"
Lets face it once the bullet exits the muzzle it doesn't matter what handguards you have, or the roll mark on your lower. I have certainly enjoyed out shooting the scoped titanium Kimber Montana fuds with a box stock FAL and iron sights!
All the cool gear in the world wont make up for a lack of basic skills, but the reverse works also. Skills being equal the guy with the free float barrel, better trigger and optics will have a distinct advantage. Look at the accomplished rifle competitor's rigs.
Does it really matter if your light is screwed to your handguards or on a $350 rail? The target wont care.
So if you can afford it and can continue to get training and practice while still maintaining a healthy family budget.... buy whatever turns your crank.
I think what the guy you quoted was alluding to is that rails often lead to more trouble than they're worth if there isn't an initial need for mounting things. Rails can become like MOLLE and people think that every exposed slot needs to be filled with something.
That has nothing to do with rails and everything to do with stupidity.
Cameron
Jay Cunningham
07-24-09, 12:24
I think they add complexity based on the user/installer having more of a chance to screw things up, not to mention more attachment points means more failure points, which is often also part of the user/installer error.
It would be easy to take that logic to an absurd conclusion. What if the user is assembling the whole carbine from parts? What if you buy, say, a DD M4 carbine that comes with rails factory installed? How is that gun - inherently, out of the box - more complex than an A1?
In terms of weight, I don't know of any that functionally weigh less. reference (http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Ajl2UPK0UHPscHdzd2hlZ2hOUXNGblVaTWtaTkYyRFE&hl=en)
The DD 7.0 rails are less than the M4 dual shield, but add covers, even ladder covers, and you're over very easily.
Okay, now we get back to where the lines start to blur. Does KISS = lightest possible weight? Some think so. Some also think it means a "retro clone".
I also think "simplest thing in the world" is severely over-stating the case. Snapping in a set of plastic handguards on a BCM, or just using the handguards that came with the gun, is much simpler.
This is really going semantically overboard, IMO. A one-piece rail bolted to the receiver does not add inherent complexity to the weapon. By your definition, it's the temptation to add "stuff" to the rail that adds the complexity. Doesn't adding "stuff" to a non-railed gun add to the complexity equally? Aren't some of the mounting options for those items in fact more complex than a simple throw-lever or thumb screw on a rail?
I think what the guy you quoted was alluding to is that rails often lead to more trouble than they're worth if there isn't an initial need for mounting things. Rails can become like MOLLE and people think that every exposed slot needs to be filled with something.
I think you may be right in what the OP was alluding to, but that still doesn't support the argument that rails "add complexity." In fact, in most case, they make adding accesories... simpler. :eek:
Did I mention that this topic always gets on my nerves? :p
I have guns set up both ways, so I see value in it both ways, but my preference is definitely shifting away from the rails after my own experiences with both. I used to staunchly defend them but I have to admit that these days I am generally having a hard time finding any good reason to use railed forends at all outside of some limited niche uses.
Ultimately I don't care what anyone else does, but I think that those that are just getting started out should evaluate their needs, wants, budget, and application and try things a simpler way before automatically jumping into a more complex, expensive, and heavy way. Otherwise they wind up installing things they may not need and then trying to defend their choices without any reason or logic. "Because I want to" is a perfectly fine reason, but it shouldn't be repackaged as something else.
In fact, in most case, they make adding accesories... simpler. :eek:
and herein lies the rub.
Yes, if you need a way to mount a slew of accessories then a railed forend is clearly the best option. But just what are all these accessories that need adding?
The "KISS" idea always gets attacked by breaking things down but that's not a rational way to look at things. The attraction to KISS isn't just that it's simpler but also that it's cheaper and lighter. Maybe we need a better term since "KISS" on TOS means this.
http://hotspotairsoft.com/catalog/images/229913.jpg
I don't see anyone here advocating that (ok, anyone rational).
There's another thread here where someone said a piston gun was the next great thing, someone else said that there's nothing wrong with the old great thing, so the OP posted a picture of a cannon. That same sort of argument shows up when KISS discussions come up and people take it to the extreme of an A1 upper, no light, no sling, etc. That's stupid on both sides, whether you're the guy building the gun or the guy using it as an argument against keeping the gun lighter, cheaper, and simpler.
The OP here asked what he NEEDED to add to his gun as the basics. Light, sling, Optic (we can argue about the order in another thread). What I brought up in discussing rail systems was that they are being thought of by a lot of shooters as a necessity, often without even trying the gun without them. I know this because I fell victim to it myself and it took a completely unrelated experience with the AK for me to appreciate the folly of my ways.
I know this because I fell victim to it myself and it took a completely unrelated experience with the AK for me to appreciate the folly of my ways.
You obviously need a rail for your Ak then :D
I guess my idea of a KISS rifle is pretty much be a stock rifle with an upgraded BCG like a BCM, a good two point sling, and running good mags like PMags. Once you start adding all the other stuff on the gun really it gets heavy and not as fun to shoot.
decodeddiesel
07-24-09, 14:21
I guess my idea of a KISS rifle is pretty much be a stock rifle with an upgraded BCG like a BCM, a good two point sling, and running good mags like PMags. Once you start adding all the other stuff on the gun really it gets heavy and not as fun to shoot.
:rolleyes:
/thread
I guess my idea of a KISS rifle is pretty much be a stock rifle with an upgraded BCG like a BCM, a good two point sling, and running good mags like PMags. Once you start adding all the other stuff on the gun really it gets heavy and not as fun to shoot.
Only if you are a munchkin!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/EvilKev/Iraq/CarbinePerfectionII001.jpg
KISS for some roles...
:rolleyes:
/thread
So whats wrong with my opinion of a KISS rifle?
Only if you are a munchkin!
I dont know many people that like to heft around a 9+ pound rifle all day. I will let you borrow my Predator Pursuit and run it through an all day course.
Alaskapopo
07-24-09, 15:01
I guess my idea of a KISS rifle is pretty much be a stock rifle with an upgraded BCG like a BCM, a good two point sling, and running good mags like PMags. Once you start adding all the other stuff on the gun really it gets heavy and not as fun to shoot.
All AR's are fun to shoot. I think its more fun to shoot with optics because they allow you to shoot better. But if you are on a budget than a KISS rifle makes sense. Its more about money than anything.
Pat
So whats wrong with my opinion of a KISS rifle?
Well, we are guessing that you have never been through a carbine school or at least had an instructor advise you that optics and a flashlight are must have items on a defensive weapon.
C4
Alaskapopo
07-24-09, 15:08
Well, we are guessing that you have never been through a carbine school or at least had an instructor advise you that optics and a flashlight are must have items on a defensive weapon.
C4
But that 4 ounce flash light is really heavy. :rolleyes:
Pat
Well, we are guessing that you have never been through a carbine school or at least had an instructor advise you that optics and a flashlight are must have items on a defensive weapon.
C4
Nope... Never have been through a carbine school. Don't get me wrong I am not against having lights or optics on a rifle. Due to the fact that I am not storming buildings or using an AR as my main HD weapon I don't see the need for such items on a KISS rifle. Like previous posters said.. It depends on what your purpose of use is.
Alaskapopo
07-24-09, 15:16
Nope... Never have been through a carbine school. Don't get me wrong I am not against having lights or optics on a rifle. Due to the fact that I am not storming buildings or using an AR as my main HD weapon I don't see the need for such items on a KISS rifle. Like previous posters said.. It depends on what your purpose of use is.
You have a right to use what you want as a home defense weapon. However a good .223/5.56 carbine is about the best home defense tool you can get. Better than a shotgun and far better than a pistol. I believe in weapon lights on all defensive firearms. I have them on my rifle, shotgun and duty pistol. Being able to ID your target before you shoot is not an option but a necessity.
Pat
Hey let me ask you guys this while I have your attention. Do you guys check the headspace on your rifle after upgrading to a diff BCG? I did when I swapped mine out, but I see lots of posts about guys swapping BCG's but never say a word about checking headspace.
Nope... Never have been through a carbine school. Don't get me wrong I am not against having lights or optics on a rifle. Due to the fact that I am not storming buildings or using an AR as my main HD weapon I don't see the need for such items on a KISS rifle. Like previous posters said.. It depends on what your purpose of use is.
Even if you THINK there is a CHANCE of having to use your AR for a defensive purpose, get a light and an optic on it. Neither item will turn your AR into a 9lbs beast. ;)
C4
Hey let me ask you guys this while I have your attention. Do you guys check the headspace on your rifle after upgrading to a diff BCG? I did when I swapped mine out, but I see lots of posts about guys swapping BCG's but never say a word about checking headspace.
It is always a good idea (especially if the barrel has a lot of rounds through it). If the bolt is new though, I would not worry about it too much.
C4
Even if you THINK there is a CHANCE of having to use your AR for a defensive purpose, get a light and an optic on it. Neither item will turn your AR into a 9lbs beast. ;)
C4
Alright... You may have talked me into getting a light and optic. :) However.. if my wife starts asking why our bank account suddenly gets lower I am pointing her in your direction. :D
I dont know many people that like to heft around a 9+ pound rifle all day. I will let you borrow my Predator Pursuit and run it through an all day course.
I used to hump an L1A1 on patrol when I was 19.... :D
I just don't buy into the idea, that if you put a rail on your rifle, or a light and a RDS suddenly you aren't spending enough on training or practice and your skills will suffer.
With that rationale this guys probably can't even figure out how to load their rifles....
http://61.19.248.235/uploads/f352f76641.jpg
Cameron
decodeddiesel
07-24-09, 16:25
I used to hump an L1A1 on patrol when I was 19.... :D
No shit. Once upon a time I was assigned and humped a M240B with ELCAN and PEQ-2 and all of the associated equipment with it. I'm sorry but a carbine with a light and an optic just doesn't weight that much.
A 9 pound weapon is not going to break you, and if it is I suggest putting down the twinkie and picking up the weights.
I just don't buy into the idea, that if you put a rail on your rifle, or a light and a RDS suddenly you aren't spending enough on training or practice and your skills will suffer.
With that rationale this guys probably can't even figure out how to load their rifles....
Cameron
That is a completely unfair comparison using Magpul employees to make your point. It's their job to do what they do...
I only said that in "MY" case purchasing accessories limits my ability to practice with the rifle, and in the conversation I paraphrased the friend I was speaking to simply suggested that was also the case with his department. That doesn't mean there aren't people out there that have the expendable income to do both. Hell I wish I was one of them. If I was though I still don't know if my AR would look like those two, well maybe the bottom one.
That is a completely unfair comparison using Magpul employees to make your point. It's their job to do what they do...
I only said that in "MY" case purchasing accessories limits my ability to practice with the rifle, and in the conversation I paraphrased the friend I was speaking to simply suggested that was also the case with his department. That doesn't mean there aren't people out there that have the expendable income to do both. Hell I wish I was one of them. If I was though I still don't know if my AR would look like those two, well maybe the bottom one.
So it is not an issue about whether to have a rail or not, but a budget issue. I get that, use what you can afford. I have been in circumstances before where the only firearm i could afford was a $150 used shotgun, I couldn't even imagine dropped $1000 on a rifle at that time.
Maybe we should say "Budget Carbine" rather than "K.I.S.S Carbine"?
For me, within my personal budget, these epitomize very simple fighting carbines. High quality and expensive parts yes, but still very simple and functional.
http://i561.photobucket.com/albums/ss60/cameron_personal/AR15s/3ARsd.jpg
Cameron
Yes it's a budget issue, but also a technical one too. I am failing to wrap my head around why I would need a rail. Especially since I will only ever mount a light, and maybe one day a fore grip just to see if I like.
Yes it's a budget issue, but also a technical one too. I am failing to wrap my head around why I would need a rail. Especially since I will only ever mount a light, and maybe one day a fore grip just to see if I like.
You don't need a rail. My first carbine I used the handguards and mounted the light to the front sight post.
Cameron
RogerinTPA
07-24-09, 20:08
The term KISS, for the majority on this forum, means "Practical" or "Functional" fighting AR. Not the "bare bones", "vanilla", "right out of the box" AR, because you are too cheap, and defend the vanilla KISS AR, with your dying breath, which is indicative of a TOS argument. Most of us want the most "Practical Kiss" or "Functional KISS" weapon that will give us every advantage in an armed encounter. If you are in the "Bare Bones", "Vanilla" or "Out the Box" KISS camp, then I suspect you will be the first casualty of an armed encounter, or produce the first liability causality because you didn't have a mounted light and shot the wrong person, OR, you didn't have an RDS, missed the BG, and shot kid down the street.
I saw a list one time of something to the effect of "cliches that, when used, automatically declare the user the loser". Citing what professional trainers do instead of explaining your own rationale should be on that list.
I have the impression that people spend money on rails and such and not good training because I see it first hand all the time. We get shooters out that can't hit the ground, and when I suggest maybe they go take a class with someone like Randy Cain they say things like "yeah, I'd like to, but I just can't afford it". Hard to buy that argument when the guy has a $2500 rifle in his hands, a spare of similar cost in the range bag, and a $1500 pistol on his belt. :rolleyes:
hell, I've seen people post that exact same sentiment on this very site, and yet if you search the picture threads for posts by them you'll find a very well-appointed carbine that they have no earthly idea how to use.
BillCutting
07-24-09, 20:18
I saw a list one time of something to the effect of "cliches that, when used, automatically declare the user the loser". Citing what professional trainers do instead of explaining your own rationale should be on that list.
I have the impression that people spend money on rails and such and not good training because I see it first hand all the time. We get shooters out that can't hit the ground, and when I suggest maybe they go take a class with someone like Randy Cain they say things like "yeah, I'd like to, but I just can't afford it". Hard to buy that argument when the guy has a $2500 rifle in his hands, a spare of similar cost in the range bag, and a $1500 pistol on his belt. :rolleyes:
Yeah but with that $800 flashlight on his gun, he sure can ID that target quick. :D
If we are talking about a KISS that would be used for a defensive purpose, then an optic and a flashlight should REALLY be viewed as mandatory on a KISS (defensive weapon).
Why is this you ask? Simple. You cannot see in the dark.
Anyone ever take a "kiss" AR to a night fighting course (no optic or flashlight)? If you have not, would suggest doing so before recommending that they are a good idea as a defensive tool.
Saw a guy bring this very setup to a class once. Not only could he not hit the target, but often times could not even find it. When he did find it, he was slow on target (too slow). This is a no go in my book.
C4
sorry. I probably should have said, "a sling, a light, and RDS with BUIS should be considered necessary basics", instead of, "can be considered necessary basics."
IOW, I agree w/ everything you've said...
How does this make any sense? A rail just sits there benign - it's the simplest thing in the world. I cannot understand this line of thinking. Tell me you don't want a rail system, okay that's fine. Tell me that they add complexity and weight?
They add no complexity and sometimes railed HG's are lighter than the standard ones they replace.
well, maybe so. but it's certainly not in keeping with the KISS concept. 'keep it simple' is pretty easy to understand.
why go to the trouble or spend the money to add a quad rail if you're not going to mount anything to it??? :confused:
...I think you may be right in what the OP was alluding to, but that still doesn't support the argument that rails "add complexity." In fact, in most case, they make adding accesories... simpler. :eek:
this is it right here - KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) means NOT adding accessories beyond a light, sling, RDS.
you don't need a rail for any of that...
decodeddiesel
07-24-09, 23:59
Alright this thread is running ad-naseum.
I think Cameron is onto something with his "Budget Carbine" as opposed to K.I.S.S.
If all you can afford is a simple carbine (or shotgun, or Glock) with a simple light attached by whatever means, and a tritium front sight, then rock on.
KISS is so often used to justify a substandard weapon, lack of necessary components, training, etc. in some type of romanticized image of what a "rifleman" should be. In that context it's ridiculous.
Thread tools, unsubscribe.
my current go-to rifle (minus M600C which I just got):
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i231/hossb7/AR15008.jpg
my 2nd AR build:
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i231/hossb7/AR15002-1.jpg
I plan on getting a Micro T1 for my 2nd AR as well as another set of Troy MRF-DI rails, a VFG and sling, then it will be my "go-to". To me it is the perfect KISS: VFG for control, sling, a quality optic and a solid white light.
Like KevinB said (in so many words), what is KISS to each individual greatly varies.
I think Cameron is onto something with his "Budget Carbine" as opposed to K.I.S.S.
If all you can afford is a simple carbine (or shotgun, or Glock) with a simple light attached by whatever means, and a tritium front sight, then rock on.
KISS is so often used to justify a substandard weapon, lack of necessary components, training, etc. in some type of romanticized image of what a "rifleman" should be. In that context it's ridiculous.
That's right.
Hi Rob,
How did you mount the Surefire to the handguards? I was told that I can drill through the stock handguards and mount a mini-rail. I would like some advice before I break something. I will be adding a true rail system down the road.
Thank you.
Wow did I touch on a sore subject or what? Damn!
My entire point of this thread was to address the issue of a simple carbine that is not "cheap, or justifiably substandard" as decodediesel puts it, but rather that is capable of high peformance, and reliability with the least amount of add ons as possible.
It seems that this is almost a philosophical argument with some people. I'm picturing all of you around a dinner table, and I'm the new guy. After taking a drink of my wine and bringing up this conversation, someone politely taps me on the shoulder and whispers in my ear: "We don't talk religion, politics, or KISS rifles here..." ;)
Thanks everyone for the different outlooks, the multitude of opinions, and your conversation. I feel I have learned a ton.
My HD carbine.......
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v489/Metroliner/Carbine.jpg
A little background...
I carried a “KISS” rifle for 12 years, from an A1 to an A2 and even an A2 carbine. It had nothing other then a 2pt parade sling, maybe a top sling adapter if I were lucky enough to find one in the surplus store.
I’ve also carried some more “complex” rifles. The most “tricked out” one, had a folding front sight(they just put it on there, I didn’t want it)KAC rail, VFG, 9volt SureFire, VITAL 2 laser, Aimpoint M2, PRI latch, Tango Down pistol grip, VTAC and later a VCAS sling.
While, one can make do with the so called kiss carbine, there is no way I’d go back to one by choice.
You see a lot of this in the 1911 world also.
Bells, whistles, add-on’s, etc? This denotes an almost trivial nature to them. Phrases like “everything you need and nothing you don’t”, etc. Also get tossed around alot. Some one will make that comment about a gun, that pretty much has everything you can do to the gun.
Well what is left?
If most consider a light and Optic mandatory, maybe a vfg, what else can someone be tempted to "hang” on his rail? IR lasers don’t come cheap. A visible laser? Some very switched on individuals advocate them. So what one more item, a laser of some sort, thats what this is all about?
Awhile back I took a class by Jim Smith, of BlackHawk down fame, after talking to his AI, we pretty much determined that the only real drawback to a FF rail, was cost. With some real benefits.
Which brings me to the comment about citing what instructors teach or say. Isn’t that why we go to the class in the first place? Relaying that info is now a bad thing?
If most of us relied solely on our own experience, we’d have not much more then a swiss army knife to defend ourselves. They bring insight, that we don’t have, and allow us to see things from a different perspective.
I can’t help but think there is a certain amount of “reverse elitism” going on. Where as some people thought they were looked down upon if they did not have a 2500 dollar gun, some people now assume you are a wanna be if you do.
Lets leave the peripheral arguments out of it for a second.
If you can’t afford it, you can’t afford it, move on.
If you won’t train, you won’t train, move on.
If you have no need or don’t know how to use the “add-on” you don’t know, move on.
All that is not a reflection on the gun itself, but just the shooter. A shooter that can’t take advantage of an Aimpoint, does not make the Aimpoint bad.
Either your switched on or your not.
In the above mentioned class, the main benefit of the FF tube, was the lack of shift in zero, when resting the weapon on cover, or applying tension with a sling, and I would assume a VFG, (they did not advocate them). They noted significant shifts in impact, how much someone like me, an average shooter would notice, I don’t know. But when I had the money, I decided to change to a FF tube. I also like the ability to push my light further out front, so I could grasp the rifle further out front.
It was observed, that many officers shoot no better at “CQB” ranges with an optic then with irons. Maybe, I usually shoot tighter groups with irons then a 4moa Aimpoint, but... what the Aimpoint offers you, is the ability to get on your sights much quicker, and easier , when shooting from non standard positions, rollover/sbu prone, officer down drills, around cover, etc. Also consider the use of a pro-mask. All possible with out the Aimpoint, much easier with it though.
In the end, what many people are arguing as a “KISS” rifle, is the same thing as the non kiss rifle, just arrived at somewhat differently.
A quality rifle, with a quality optic, quality white light, quality sling, quality spare mags and parts, and quality training. How you get there is almost irrelevant.
Bob
there is a difference between using what an instructor says of does to make a point by explaining their rationale behind same and simply posting a picture and saying "these guys look like me".
Failure2Stop
07-25-09, 18:41
I view a practical rifle (I abhor the term KISS in most of its incantations) as featuring the most efficient means to solve as many problems as realistically necessary.
What is the most efficient method of aiming in the most encountered lighting?
Red-dot sight, no/1X magnification.
What red-dot sight can be left on for immediate use in any of those lighting conditions?
Aimpoint
What do I need to be able to find a threat in my home and discriminate between a guy with knife in his hand or my buddy with a beer in hand?
Light
What is the most efficient method of moving while having a light at immediate access?
Stick it to the gun.
To me, these are the minimums. Capability can be expanded with the addition of more items or specialty items, but anything less is a definite disadvantage.
Fire_Medic
07-25-09, 19:12
I too set out for this rifle to build something basic, and seek out training and then let the rifle evolve as I do with my use of it.
My first AR I had last year I bought because it was a good bang for the buck. I use to have a S&W M&P 15T. It was a great rifle, but had a lot of stuff I did not need, I just bought into all the mall ninja stuff.
About a month ago I happened to be in a situation to buy/build/piece together a rifle to replace the one I unfortunately needed to sell last year. I had planned on doing this next year after returning from basic training, but the opportunity presented itself, so I took advantage of it.
I had always wanted a mid length rifle, and BCM comes to mind as a no brainer to fit that bill for producing a product of good quality and for a reasonable price. I then found out they were making lowers and decided to bite the bullet and build/piece together a basic BCM middy for myslef.
I got some parts in today and it received a little face lift, but as it stands here's the info:
BCM 16 inch midlength upper
FDE Hand Guards
Troy/BCM logo Rear BUIS
BCM Complete Lower with MOE trigger guard (came on the lower)
VLTOR EMOD FDE (balances out the middy very well)
Magpul MIAD Grip
BCM F/A BCG
And an assortment of USGI and PMAGS
BFG sling (en route)
For the $$ I have into this I could have bought something else, but it wouldn't have been as good in quality (most likely, not saying not possible) and it just wouldn't have been what I wanted also.
I plan to start attending a lot of classes from here on out because shooting has become my hobby and I've been reloading since 1Q this year.
This is what works for me right now, Jeff and Rob have both been a great help throughout the entire process, and the rifle can continue to evolve with me going forward. I still have plans for a light an optic, and then just ammo and training. A rail (if I add one) will come later on. I see no sense in a rail at this point when I'm not gonna hang anything on it, and I'd rather get an optic first anyways.
I sat down and was realistic with what "I" would be using the rifle for, and with the help of 2 great guys this is what I came up with.
I just think sometimes too much info could be a bad thing for a new comer and that tends to happen a lot on the internet.
This isn't the coolest looking rig or anything, but I'm not in an AR beauty contest either. I wanted something decent looking and reliable and I think I have met that goal. This rifle will 100% serve "MY" needs well.
Sorry for the rant, just my $0.02, here's an updated pic.
http://i325.photobucket.com/albums/k366/ffgabe/BCMFDE.jpg
Jay Cunningham
07-25-09, 20:34
A little background...
I carried a “KISS” rifle for 12 years, from an A1 to an A2 and even an A2 carbine. It had nothing other then a 2pt parade sling, maybe a top sling adapter if I were lucky enough to find one in the surplus store.
I’ve also carried some more “complex” rifles. The most “tricked out” one, had a folding front sight(they just put it on there, I didn’t want it)KAC rail, VFG, 9volt SureFire, VITAL 2 laser, Aimpoint M2, PRI latch, Tango Down pistol grip, VTAC and later a VCAS sling.
While, one can make do with the so called kiss carbine, there is no way I’d go back to one by choice.
You see a lot of this in the 1911 world also.
Bells, whistles, add-on’s, etc? This denotes an almost trivial nature to them. Phrases like “everything you need and nothing you don’t”, etc. Also get tossed around alot. Some one will make that comment about a gun, that pretty much has everything you can do to the gun.
Well what is left?
If most consider a light and Optic mandatory, maybe a vfg, what else can someone be tempted to "hang” on his rail? IR lasers don’t come cheap. A visible laser? Some very switched on individuals advocate them. So what one more item, a laser of some sort, thats what this is all about?
Awhile back I took a class by Jim Smith, of BlackHawk down fame, after talking to his AI, we pretty much determined that the only real drawback to a FF rail, was cost. With some real benefits.
Which brings me to the comment about citing what instructors teach or say. Isn’t that why we go to the class in the first place? Relaying that info is now a bad thing?
If most of us relied solely on our own experience, we’d have not much more then a swiss army knife to defend ourselves. They bring insight, that we don’t have, and allow us to see things from a different perspective.
I can’t help but think there is a certain amount of “reverse elitism” going on. Where as some people thought they were looked down upon if they did not have a 2500 dollar gun, some people now assume you are a wanna be if you do.
Lets leave the peripheral arguments out of it for a second.
If you can’t afford it, you can’t afford it, move on.
If you won’t train, you won’t train, move on.
If you have no need or don’t know how to use the “add-on” you don’t know, move on.
All that is not a reflection on the gun itself, but just the shooter. A shooter that can’t take advantage of an Aimpoint, does not make the Aimpoint bad.
Either your switched on or your not.
In the above mentioned class, the main benefit of the FF tube, was the lack of shift in zero, when resting the weapon on cover, or applying tension with a sling, and I would assume a VFG, (they did not advocate them). They noted significant shifts in impact, how much someone like me, an average shooter would notice, I don’t know. But when I had the money, I decided to change to a FF tube. I also like the ability to push my light further out front, so I could grasp the rifle further out front.
It was observed, that many officers shoot no better at “CQB” ranges with an optic then with irons. Maybe, I usually shoot tighter groups with irons then a 4moa Aimpoint, but... what the Aimpoint offers you, is the ability to get on your sights much quicker, and easier , when shooting from non standard positions, rollover/sbu prone, officer down drills, around cover, etc. Also consider the use of a pro-mask. All possible with out the Aimpoint, much easier with it though.
In the end, what many people are arguing as a “KISS” rifle, is the same thing as the non kiss rifle, just arrived at somewhat differently.
A quality rifle, with a quality optic, quality white light, quality sling, quality spare mags and parts, and quality training. How you get there is almost irrelevant.
Bob
Great post!
The_Katar you are right, R Moran hit the nail on the head.
I saw a list one time of something to the effect of "cliches that, when used, automatically declare the user the loser". Citing what professional trainers do instead of explaining your own rationale should be on that list.
there is a difference between using what an instructor says of does to make a point by explaining their rationale behind same and simply posting a picture and saying "these guys look like me".
Quoting specious lists of cliches that automatically declare your opponent a loser makes you look like you may be grasping at straws. We can discuss it until we are blue in the face, but the moment we provide examples of the more respected names in firearms training who seem to agree than adding a rail, VFG, light and RDS to a carbine don't make it a overly complex, heavy deterrent to training we automatically lose??? Rob, your logic is lacking a little here.
I made my case well enough for others here to understand, perhaps not agree with, but understand nonetheless. Reminding them, with a photo, that some of the more respected trainers appear to agree with me only bolsters my argument.
Which brings me to the comment about citing what instructors teach or say. Isn’t that why we go to the class in the first place? Relaying that info is now a bad thing?
If most of us relied solely on our own experience, we’d have not much more then a swiss army knife to defend ourselves. They bring insight, that we don’t have, and allow us to see things from a different perspective.
Exactly right. When we are discussing what enhances the utility of a defensive carbine we should look to the experiences of others who are qualified and use that information gained, within our own parameters and budget.
I can’t help but think there is a certain amount of “reverse elitism” going on. Where as some people thought they were looked down upon if they did not have a 2500 dollar gun, some people now assume you are a wanna be if you do.
This is not that only site that has the trend as you describe. I can understand making the case that a box stock 6920 is an extremely capable weapon, and does not NEED a FF rail, but this pedantic assertion that adding a rail or a short dot to your rifle means there will now be some deficiency in training or mindset is rubbish and, like R Moran, says is probably coming from emotion and ego, rather than logic and a rational approach.
Cameron
Submariner
08-08-09, 08:49
*The standard trigger guard leaves a gap that can rub your finger raw when shooting without gloves. In my hot and humid environment you get drenched with sweat and it reaps havock on the middle finger. Installation of a Magpul enhanced trigger guard would solve this.
So will a $3 Gapper. KISS
So will a $3 Gapper. KISS
See, right there, I don't see how its all that different..
I can add a part, regardless of how easy or cheap it is, its an extra part...
or....
I can replace a part, regardless, its still more money and labor...
Perhaps it comes down to how you define "simple".
Bob
Whenever I'm having a slow boring day, I like to find a thread like this and read it from start to finish. This is right up there with the: 9mm vs. .45, DI vs. Piston, and Boxers vs. Briefs threads. With that said, here's my $0.02.
To me a KISS rife is one in which you can justify each addition/subtraction you make to it. What may be seen as gimmicks or necessities by others may not be seen as such to you. It is one which fulfills YOUR needs. Wheter it's a $2500 tricked out Cats Pajamas Noveske or a $500 Frankengun. There are far too many perspectives and opinions that raise too many hackles on the boards here. Gather all the info you can here from reputable members, then find what works FOR YOU. You get to define what KISS means.
...YMMV
All of my functional rifles have the following:
White light (Surefire G2 LED or X300)
Sling (Vickers VCAS)
Optic (Aimpoint CompM2, EOTech 552, Trijicon TR24)
I consider them to be as simple as functional gets.
I like rails because I like grippy rail covers, but I needed the money to pay bills so I sold my DD Lites and KAC RASs.
Here is one, though without a sling in this pic:
http://www.azbattlerifles.com/images/krylon2.jpg
So will a $3 Gapper. KISS
Wouldn't one part to do a job rather than two be simpler?
Wouldn't one part to do a job rather than two be simpler?
A foam earplug stuffed in the "gap" is cheaper and simpler than a gapper or a new trigger guard.
It won't be as cool for the photo thread though ;)
Submariner
08-11-09, 06:36
A foam earplug stuffed in the "gap" is cheaper and simpler than a gapper or a new trigger guard.
It won't be as cool for the photo thread though ;)
Maybe i didn't have the proper foam ear plug when I tried this. It either fell out or, when fully pushed in, didn't cover the sharp edges. Can you recommend one?;)
Submariner
08-22-09, 15:42
From LF, borebrush posted:
What I find comical, is how KISS has become some specific set up. KISS is a mindset or a practice... an ethos, or an SOP even.
If mission dictates a T1 with a magnifier, with an ATPIAL and weapons light. I'll still keep it KISS by using good mounts, and setting the rifle up properly. It's about streamlining your kit for ease of use (economy of movement) while not sacrificing reliability. With that gucci gun, I'd keep it KISS by not complicating the thing with two pigtails rubber banded to my foregrip. I'd use a clicky cap at 10oclock, and a pressure plate at 9. I'd keep it simple by re balancing the weapon with a heavier stock.
Keeping It Simple doesn't equate to Keeping It Stock. [emphasis added]
The CSAT-24/7 stripe combo isn't a bare bones sighting system. It's mission specific kit that greatly enhances rifles with A2 receivers. It keeps it simple by eliminating the use of stacking and hanging a bunch of bullshit mounts off of that carrying handle. Most of those mouthbreathers preaching KISS and running their GI irons have no idea that their Irons feature BZO shift between their two apertures. Thats not keeping it simple.
Some think that using a used set of worn out KAC rails that might jiggle a bit, a KISS solution. Well how are you keeping it simple if your ATPIAL is jiggling and your zero is moving?
My KISS rifle is a LWRCI M6A1. It's reliable, accurate, and set up for streamlined economy of movement.
90% of what what the E-sperts spew about KISS isn't simple at all. It's cheap and streamlined to the point that they hold little advantage in adverse shooting conditions. If it doesn't give you an unfair advantage without excessive cost to your ease of use and its not helping shoot within the badguys OODA loop, its not keeping it simple.
Whats not considered is there are inherent variables to consider with primitive or outdated kit. Those variables are counter to keeping your shit simple. Keeping it simple is about keeping your OODA loop short and as uncluttered as possible.
...
I just see this stuff everyday and it drives me up the wall that people hang a price tag on KISS. So they pay out in full on every iteration or sore shoulders and bitchin backs.
The nugget as I see it
Keeping it simple is about keeping your OODA loop short and as uncluttered as possible.
all a KISS rifle REALLY needs, bare minimum is:
-sling
-tritium front sight
-light
Assuming you started with a quality base gun...
All this can be done, very much on the cheap.
all a KISS rifle REALLY needs, IMO, bare minimum is:
-sling
-tritium front sight
-light
Not aimed at They as I was thinking about this as I was reading previous posts, but for my $0.02 KISS often gets mixed up with cheap.
KISS is about efficiency and economy of action. The most efficient and effective way of accomplishing your goal.
Sometimes KISS can be pretty expensive, but it's usually only expensive once. Going cheap can be very expensive over time.
http://www.azbattlerifles.com/images/krylon2.jpg
What light mount is this, and is that a spot for a QD swivel I see below the light?
KISS means Keep It Simple Stupid, so do it. i would have a reliable carbine and add a light, good sling, and some reliable mags. don't need an optic, bipod, laser, nvd or vfg. my KISS rifle would be a Colt or BCM. just my 2sense.
KISS means Keep It Simple Stupid, so do it. i would have a reliable carbine and add a light, good sling, and some reliable mags. don't need an optic, bipod, laser, nvd or vfg. my KISS rifle would be a Colt or BCM. just my 2sense.
Excellent points.
...but, you can't see your irons at night, so without an optic, a tritium front sight is necessary (forget the rear) IMO.
Jay Cunningham
08-23-09, 20:56
you can't see your irons at night
I think that I am feeling a theory-to-practice test coming on.
I'm pretty sure I know whatst I speak of... and have done so in practice...when I joined the Army... we (or at least my unit) didn't have dot sights... and I shot at night...
I don't remember hitting much... and this is when my eyes were fully acclimated to the night (unlike the common civilian WTF middle of the night scenero)...
We can argue about alot, but seeing your iron sights at night aint one...
Jay Cunningham
08-24-09, 04:29
I'm pretty sure I know whatst I speak of... and have done so in practice...when I joined the Army... we (or at least my unit) didn't have dot sights... and I shot at night...
I don't remember hitting much... and this is when my eyes were fully acclimated to the night (unlike the common civilian WTF middle of the night scenero)...
We can argue about alot, but seeing your iron sights at night aint one...
I am not arguing with you. The topic comes up enough that it makes me want to hit the range at dusk with an iron sighted rifle, a rifle with an optic, and a shot timer.
I'm pretty sure I know whatst I speak of... and have done so in practice...when I joined the Army... we (or at least my unit) didn't have dot sights... and I shot at night...
I don't remember hitting much... and this is when my eyes were fully acclimated to the night (unlike the common civilian WTF middle of the night scenero)...
We can argue about alot, but seeing your iron sights at night aint one...
If there isn't enough light for you to see your sights then what exactly are you shooting at?
all a KISS rifle REALLY needs, IMO, bare minimum is:
-sling
-tritium front sight
-light
If you have an adequate white light you won't need the tritium front sight.
If there isn't enough light for you to see your sights then what exactly are you shooting at?
If you have an adequate white light you won't need the tritium front sight.
We have seen people attempt this at Vickers low light classes. It did not work out so well. Sometimes they hit the target and sometimes they didn't.
A red dot is really king in low light making it a MUST have on ANY weapon (no matter what "clicky name" it is being called).
C4
Iron sight useful/uselessness will depend upon the weapon mounted light, distance and shooter movement.
While one CAN see irons from light spillage on mounted lights, I dont think it is a practical or recommended method - as you will need to cast a lot of light for a longer time that desired to pick up the target -> id the target -> pick up the front sight and engage.
I defy anyone to find a most KISS optic than the T1 Aimpoint, as you can leave it on for months/years and it adds next to no size/weight.
I highlighted the pertinent point of Borebrushes post in my mind above -- KISS is all about shortening your OODA loop in order to effective engage and neutralize threats.
I've yet to see a match that mimics combat conditions - and all I get from the majority of the KISS fanatics is they have never been in a gunfight.
My boss Lt.Col. Dave Lutz (USMC ret.) 'coldblue' here, has a KISS carbine -- he has an A1 upper with our URX forend and an Aimpoint mounted on that -- he pointed out to the fact that when Marcus L fell off the mountain in Afghan - the scope broke off his Mk12 Mod1 and he engaged a number of enenmy combatants with his BIS (KAC front and rear - shamless company plug)
However it still has the CCO, a Light and a Sling.
Dave's been in a number of gunfights and while that was back in the day (RVN) he knows the value of KISS - and his ideas for that include what most of us consider the required equipment.
Most people CONUS won't need a Short Dot, a PEQ, etc. but for some missions that is KISS.
My KISS Home Defense gun is a Colt LE6920 with RO921 upper with a fixed front sight and a custom MRE URX, Aimpoint T1, Surefire X200 (in Larue mount) and our Triple Tap brake -- using BlackHills 70gr (flash retardant).
John_Wayne777
08-24-09, 09:13
If you have an adequate white light you won't need the tritium front sight.
...if you're stationary using a good white light with a good shoulder mount of the weapon firing at a stationary target, the irons can indeed be used quite easily.
It becomes significantly more difficult if you are shooting on the move with a less than ideal cheek weld on the weapon as you may be in a CQB type scenario. There are a number of trainers out there who worked as assaulters in Tier 1 units for a number of years...doing CQB at the highest possible level...who regard red dot sights as a mandatory upgrade.
This would be a clue as to their importance and utility in real life.
Excellent points.
...but, you can't see your irons at night, so without an optic, a tritium front sight is necessary (forget the rear) IMO.
don't need to at close range. give me a decent/medium strength light and i could kill you out to say 50 yards with iron sights all night long. longer ranges, say over 50 yards you will need a high power light anyway just to illuminate your target enough to make a good shot. optic or not. many wars have been fought (successfully) at night without lights or optics attached to weapons. the focus is the KISS concept. start adding all the crap everyone else has on their high speed killing sticks and it's no longer a KISS rifle.
I would say its KISS to engage as passively as one can - why light up the horizon for no good reason (and many bad).
As someone who's had to aim at muzzleflashes - I can tell you it ain't kiss - and anything than can better that is simpler.
Too many people's KISS is romancing the Retro - and they forget there are many reasons we have moved forward.
Too many people's KISS is romancing the Retro - and they forget there are many reasons we have moved forward.
You are spot on with that one Kevin.
Cameron
NCPatrolAR
08-24-09, 12:26
don't need to at close range. give me a decent/medium strength light and i could kill you out to say 50 yards with iron sights all night long. longer ranges, say over 50 yards you will need a high power light anyway just to illuminate your target enough to make a good shot. optic or not. many wars have been fought (successfully) at night without lights or optics attached to weapons. the focus is the KISS concept. start adding all the crap everyone else has on their high speed killing sticks and it's no longer a KISS rifle.
But were those battles fought in an effecient manner?
John_Wayne777
08-24-09, 13:37
don't need to at close range. give me a decent/medium strength light and i could kill you out to say 50 yards with iron sights all night long. longer ranges, say over 50 yards you will need a high power light anyway just to illuminate your target enough to make a good shot. optic or not. many wars have been fought (successfully) at night without lights or optics attached to weapons. the focus is the KISS concept. start adding all the crap everyone else has on their high speed killing sticks and it's no longer a KISS rifle.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but many wars have been won with flintlocks and bayonets.
...or pikes and horse cavalry.
...or bows and rocks.
Again, it's one thing if you're shooting with the light from your rifle fully illuminating a stationary target. It's quite another when you're trying to stop a threat who is shooting back and moving without turning your "shoot me" beam on to give him a good read on where you are, or where there's enough light to identify a threat but not enough to see your sights. (Lighting, after all, is not static anywhere...)
Under the best circumstances irons can certainly be extremely effective...but the red dot gives you more capability in more environments and in more situations than the irons do...hence their prevalence on combat arms today. Whether you're a PFC in Iraq clearing a building full of Sunni insurgents, a Tier 1 assaulter going into a building to rescue hostages, a law enforcement officer dealing with an active shooter, or an ordinary joe defending his family from some assclown who wants to hurt them, when the moment comes to kinetically pacify a miscreant it all boils down to the same thing:
Getting an acceptable sight reference and pulling the trigger. The red dot makes this process easier...worlds easier...under a greater variety of circumstances than anything else currently available. This means more hits on target...or in the worst case scenario, more bullets in bad people who need to die.
Alaskapopo
08-24-09, 14:11
If there isn't enough light for you to see your sights then what exactly are you shooting at?
If you have an adequate white light you won't need the tritium front sight.
There are lots of situations where you will be able to see your target where standard sights will not be visible or will not be fast to pick up. Such as when the target is back light and you are in a dark area. Weapon lights are great but you should only use then to ID your target. If you know where your target is using a light will only give away your position. Also tritium sights and red dots are a lot faster to pick up. There may be situations where you can still see your sights but due to the low light they are very slow to use vs an optic or tritium that stands out against the target area.
Pat
Not to put too fine a point on it, but many wars have been won with flintlocks and bayonets.
...or pikes and horse cavalry.
...or bows and rocks.
Again, it's one thing if you're shooting with the light from your rifle fully illuminating a stationary target. It's quite another when you're trying to stop a threat who is shooting back and moving without turning your "shoot me" beam on to give him a good read on where you are, or where there's enough light to identify a threat but not enough to see your sights. (Lighting, after all, is not static anywhere...)
Under the best circumstances irons can certainly be extremely effective...but the red dot gives you more capability in more environments and in more situations than the irons do...hence their prevalence on combat arms today. Whether you're a PFC in Iraq clearing a building full of Sunni insurgents, a Tier 1 assaulter going into a building to rescue hostages, a law enforcement officer dealing with an active shooter, or an ordinary joe defending his family from some assclown who wants to hurt them, when the moment comes to kinetically pacify a miscreant it all boils down to the same thing:
Getting an acceptable sight reference and pulling the trigger. The red dot makes this process easier...worlds easier...under a greater variety of circumstances than anything else currently available. This means more hits on target...or in the worst case scenario, more bullets in bad people who need to die.
Very well said. And complete with my new favorite phrase "kinetically pacify a miscreant". That's just awesome.
John_Wayne777
08-24-09, 14:22
Very well said. And complete with my new favorite phrase "kinetically pacify a miscreant". That's just awesome.
I saw at least the "kinetically pacify" part on LF at some time in the past, so I won't claim credit for it. :D
http://www.azbattlerifles.com/images/krylon2.jpg
Wow, now I see why Katar hates this subject. I just want to know who makes this light mount, then I can unsubscribe from this thread.
Wow, now I see why Katar hates this subject. I just want to know who makes this light mount, then I can unsubscribe from this thread.
That looks like a Vltor light mount mounted on a Vltor flip-up front sight base. The top of the FSB has a rail, and it looks like he's got it flipped up and is using it as a fixed base with the light mounted on the rail behind the front post.
This front site tower (http://www.vltor.com/vst.htm) with the "off-set Scout mount" (http://www.vltor.com/vltor-mountables.htm) (second item on page).
Note the mount is available with an ADM lever now, too.
militarymoron
08-24-09, 15:23
Wow, now I see why Katar hates this subject. I just want to know who makes this light mount, then I can unsubscribe from this thread.
looks like a vltor offset mount attached to the rail on top a vltor VST front sight/gas block with the front sight flipped up.
looks like a vltor offset mount attached to the rail on top a vltor VST front sight/gas block with the front sight flipped up.
Yes
http://www.azbattlerifles.com/images/VST.jpg
I like that setup alot, not dropping $225 to do it though. That would not be KISS! :eek:
Jay Cunningham
08-24-09, 15:36
Wow, now I see why Katar hates this subject.
Indeed. :cool:
...if you're stationary using a good white light with a good shoulder mount of the weapon firing at a stationary target, the irons can indeed be used quite easily.
It becomes significantly more difficult if you are shooting on the move with a less than ideal cheek weld on the weapon as you may be in a CQB type scenario. There are a number of trainers out there who worked as assaulters in Tier 1 units for a number of years...doing CQB at the highest possible level...who regard red dot sights as a mandatory upgrade.
This would be a clue as to their importance and utility in real life.
I wasn't arguing the value of RDS over irons, I was commenting on the value of the tritium post if the shooter has a white light.
Basing all your TTP's off of what Tier 1 units is flawed since they can also use NOD's and IR lasers which may be at best prohibitively expensive or inacessible for most civilians.
There are lots of situations where you will be able to see your target where standard sights will not be visible or will not be fast to pick up. Such as when the target is back light and you are in a dark area. Weapon lights are great but you should only use then to ID your target. If you know where your target is using a light will only give away your position. Also tritium sights and red dots are a lot faster to pick up. There may be situations where you can still see your sights but due to the low light they are very slow to use vs an optic or tritium that stands out against the target area.
Pat
Alaskapopo,
Thanks for pointing out the back light effect, I hadn't considered it.
Understood that tritium and RDS are faster to pick up.
We may be thinking of different scenarios. For myself, if I'm pointing in on a target I will either already be able to identify using ambient light or will need to illuminate with a white light.
In that case either the RDS or the irons will be on target- I have an XS tritium stripe on one of my AR's and have never had a need for it with the Surefire and Aimpoint mounted.
John_Wayne777
08-24-09, 18:07
Basing all your TTP's off of what Tier 1 units is flawed since they can also use NOD's and IR lasers which may be at best prohibitively expensive or inacessible for most civilians.
Whereas NV is prohibitively expensive and useful only in certain limited circumstances, a good RDS is fairly affordable and useful under any circumstance where you have to take a shot....except when someone is wearing NV gear that prevents getting a decent view through the red dot.
The Tier 1 guys started using the RDS for reasons that ANYONE who might need to make a shot when it counts will share.
Alaskapopo
08-24-09, 18:35
I have never seen a chart categorizing fighting units as tier 1, 2 and 3 and so on and so forth. Who came up with this and what are the criteria.
I have never seen a chart categorizing fighting units as tier 1, 2 and 3 and so on and so forth. Who came up with this and what are the criteria.
That's probably worth another thread. It also isn't something that should (although often is) be talked about on an open forum.
Briefly, Tier 1 units are the very tip of the spear, funded and commanded from outside the normal channels, and missions and existence should be classified.
Tier 2 units are SOF that have some, but not all of the above characteristics.
All other tiers, if there is such an animal, are known SOF (also called vanilla or white SOF) units.
Since I'm not, or have never been any of the above I'm sure more knowledgeable and pertinent members will chime in. I'm just trying to give a brief synopsis of the tiering usage.
As to this thread, I'm reminded of the old saying "if we were intended to fly, God would have given us wings....". There are some opinions here that have such a legacy mentality that I'm surprised we aren't talking about typewriters and telegraphs.
Just because the AR15 platform doesn't come with a white light, an RDS, and a good sling doesn't mean they aren't force multipliers. They SHOULD be standard equipment. All three of those items have proven themselves (obviously some brands better than others) and give the ability to ANY shooter to FIGHT BETTER.
Buy a quality sling, a quality RDS and a quality white light (and batteries :) ), put them on a quality AR15, shoot quality ammo, and seek as much quality training as possible. Sounds pretty simple to me.
SOF tierings
Tier 1 units have a CT/HR role in National Level of Importance (NLI) incidents. They are not necassrily black covert.
Tier 2 units support Tier 1 unit - which gets confused this days and age as a lot of the TF's get 'spliced'
Tier 3 'vanilla' SOF are the rest.
There are 6 accepted Tier1 units in the world.
1 SFOD-D
DevGru
22SAS
JTF-2
SASR
GSG-9/KSK (they have an odd mission split relationship)
FBI HRT is excluded as they are an LE element (while the GSG9 is too I did not come up with the definitions or the inclussion.)
Robb Jensen
08-25-09, 08:14
Kevin where would you rank the 3 branches of the SAD?
The more this thread gets rehashed here and elsewhere, the more I think that we actually succeeded pretty well in answering the OP's question. He asked for "rifle Mandatory Upgrades/Mods". If you throw out the buzzwords that offend so many, and the outliers on either end (the parade sling, iron sights crowd on one and and the bi-pod, FF rail, laser crowd on the other) you'll find that the vast majority of posts actually have a lot of overlap and consensus.
QUALITY carbine (6920, BCM, DD, Noveske, LMT, KAC, etc.)
Light (Surefire)
Red Dot Optic (Aimpoint)
Sling (VTAC or VCAS)
THOSE are the basis of what make up the Mandatory Upgrades/Mods IMHO, and can be thought of as M4C-KISS rather than the "retro" or "legacy" less-capable guns.
SOF tierings
Tier 1 units have a CT/HR role in National Level of Importance (NLI) incidents. They are not necassrily black covert.
Tier 2 units support Tier 1 unit - which gets confused this days and age as a lot of the TF's get 'spliced'
Tier 3 'vanilla' SOF are the rest.
There are 6 accepted Tier1 units in the world.
1 SFOD-D
DevGru
22SAS
JTF-2
SASR
GSG-9/KSK (they have an odd mission split relationship)
FBI HRT is excluded as they are an LE element (while the GSG9 is too I did not come up with the definitions or the inclussion.)
KevinB- thanks for posting that, I've not seen that listing before.
FWIW- I took a class with some FBI SWAT guys and they defined their "Tiers" as
Tier 1- HRT
Tier 2- I forget the terminology but larger field offices such as NYC or WFO with more manning (roughly 4x larger than a local FBI SWAT team) IIRC
Tier 3- Local office
Tiers 2 and 3 were part time teams while HRT was obviously a full time team.
John_Wayne777
08-25-09, 10:50
I like that setup alot, not dropping $225 to do it though. That would not be KISS! :eek:
You can achieve the same effect using a Midwest Industries mount for a standard FSB and a VLTOR G2 mount for a lot less. I run that setup on my 6920...I'll have to get some pics when I get home.
http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/sh/large/_32Y3955.jpg
You can achieve the same effect using a Midwest Industries mount for a standard FSB and a VLTOR G2 mount for a lot less. I run that setup on my 6920...I'll have to get some pics when I get home.
Let me help you with that.
MIDWEST INDUSTRIES AR-15/M16 MX-SERIES TACTICAL LIGHT MOUNT $35 (http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=21194/Product/AR_15_M16_MX_SERIES_TACTICAL_LIGHT_MOUNT)
VLTOR SCOUT MOUNT TACTICAL FLASHLIGHT WEAPON MOUNT $35 (http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=26772/Product/SCOUT_MOUNT_TACTICAL_FLASHLIGHT_WEAPON_MOUNT)
SUREFIRE G2 NITROLON HANDHELD LIGHT $39 (http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=26146/Product/G2_G3_NITROLON_HANDHELD_LIGHTS)
TOTAL $109
I also have the clickable tailcap (http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=25774/Product/Z48__Z57_TAILCAP_ASSEMBLIES) which adds $40 to the price, and the shock-isolated bezel for the incan bulbs that I'm not even sure they sell anymore. Use a G2 LED and you shouldn't need the shock isolation.
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/IMG_2870Medium.jpg
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/IMG_2867Medium.jpg
view through optic (to show it doesn't interfere)
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/IMG_2868Medium.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/EvilKev/Iraq/Iraq038.jpg
Even cheaper - my SF 852C dropped off when the ARMS mount gave way after being banged on the doorframe while I was trying to shoot someone.
I took my M1 IR light in cheap weaver rail (off my helmet) and hose clamped a G2 to it. Nothing sexy - but it worked for a lot of rounds till I got a Scout Light issued.
FYI I don;t like clickable tail caps on 'use' guns as under stress you can click them on when you least want.
A regular G2 will hold up to a lot of 5.56mm and or 7.62 even without the LED head and no shock bezel.
I wouldn't spend the money on those parts (clickable cap, isolated bezel) today but wanted to list everything that was in the pic before someone asked. :D I would probably opt for the LED but more for the runtime than the shock iso, but I do think the LED are sturdier over the long haul.
John_Wayne777
08-25-09, 12:14
Even cheaper - my SF 852C dropped off when the ARMS mount gave way after being banged on the doorframe while I was trying to shoot someone.
I took my M1 IR light in cheap weaver rail (off my helmet) and hose clamped a G2 to it.
Hoseclamps are old skool enough to be KISS, IMO.
I never could get used to the spontaneous-detach ARMS mounts, although mine just fell off from shooting at paper targets which is decidedly less awesome than having them jump off the gun when you're trying to kinetically pacify an insurgent.
Alaskapopo
08-25-09, 12:32
Thanks guys I had no idea about the tier system and now I know a little. Thanks
Pat
NightFighter
08-25-09, 13:19
Hey All,
After a year with my M&P15 I have decided that I am leaning more towards keeping the rifle a KISS as I am more then happy with it's performance, and I feel like all the add ons offered in the AR world are more aesthetic for most people then they are functional (no offense). The reason for this thought is that after 1500 rounds through my gun, I still feel like I have another 1000 or so to go before my muscle memory regarding site picture, fore end grip, ext come completely natural. I'm getting better but the last thing I want to do is add say a fore end grip, or another button, or an optic that I then have to learn.
I do however want to make sure that the gun functions at peak performance. What are some of the mandatory upgrades that you all add to your KISS rifles? Consider the answers being directed towards the rookie community.
Dmcmanus,
Thanks for posting your original question. I am in the same boat as you, but hesitate to post questions in this forum due to being new to the black rifle and not knowing how to word my questions to get the best answer. I know the thread got off track several times, but some of the answers to your original question where pretty infomative. I will keep reading and searching and hopefully be able to find more answers to questions those of us new to the black rifle need to progress. Thanks again
Dmcmanus,
Thanks for posting your original question. I am in the same boat as you, but hesitate to post questions in this forum due to being new to the black rifle and not knowing how to word my questions to get the best answer. I know the thread got off track several times, but some of the answers to your original question where pretty infomative. I will keep reading and searching and hopefully be able to find more answers to questions those of us new to the black rifle need to progress. Thanks again
Don't be afraid to ask questions on here. Just don't be thin skinned.
C4
NightFighter
08-25-09, 15:01
Don't be afraid to ask questions on here. Just don't be thin skinned.
C4
Dont think I am thinned skinned. Just dont understand why people who have much more experience than I do feel they need to bash me for asking what they consider is a stupid question. Sure there are things I might be able to find if I knew the right search parameters. However, learning to search on a new site is difficult at times. Why not just tell me what parameters to use and not bash newbies. Yes I read the stickies at the start of a forum, but stickies dont answer all newbie questions. Like many post say each person is different and we have different questions.
Just like in this thread. I dont know there were so many different definitions of KISS. The more I read the more I learn, but there are still specific questions I would like answered.
By the way thanks for responding to my post. I have read many of your replys and you always seems to respond to peoples question with a positive response. You and Rob and a few others are the one of the main resonse I continue to come to this forum even if I dont ask questions.
Jay Cunningham
08-25-09, 15:07
Just dont understand why people who have much more experience than I do feel they need to bash me for asking what they consider is a stupid question.
Sometimes some of the guys who have been around for a while and have seen the same questions get asked over and over again get frustrated when they come up. It's not an excuse, but it is an explanation.
I won't tolerate dogpiles or bashing of new members who ask questions... but I also expect new members to read the stickied threads and to have somewhat thick skins.
It's a two-way respect street and I watch out for it. We expect our senior members to act as mentors to our newer members. And we expect our inexperienced guys to pay close attention to the advice that is offered.
:)
NightFighter
08-25-09, 15:25
Sometimes some of the guys who have been around for a while and have seen the same questions get asked over and over again get frustrated when they come up. It's not an excuse, but it is an explanation.
I won't tolerate dogpiles or bashing of new members who ask questions... but I also expect new members to read the stickied threads and to have somewhat thick skins.
It's a two-way respect street and I watch out for it. We expect our senior members to act as mentors to our newer members. And we expect our inexperienced guys to pay close attention to the advice that is offered.
:)
Fair enough. I am more than willing to listen to good or sound advice. Guess one of my problems is I dont know who or what is good or sound advice :].
Fair enough. I am more than willing to listen to good or sound advice. Guess one of my problems is I dont know who or what is good or sound advice :].
The people that have mod/staff/IP or SME next to their name are always good to listen to.
C4
Guess one of my problems is I dont know who or what is good or sound advice :].
That is a problem with all internet advice. Usually, you can get a good BS indicator light to come on in person but on the internet, it is hard to get a feel from the person answering your questions.
Dont think I am thinned skinned. Just dont understand why people who have much more experience than I do feel they need to bash me for asking what they consider is a stupid question. Sure there are things I might be able to find if I knew the right search parameters.
The only time I have ever gotten bashed on this forum is in the General Discussions area when talking politics, which is to be expected. That aside I have found that most everyone on this forum is very amiable when it comes to questions about guns. Granted some people are quick to be abrupt, or gruff, but so what. The way I look at the gun info on this forum is that I am a guest in someone's shop, or classroom. I am among giants when I think of some of the people that have taken the time to write and answer my questions!!! And I have found that saying I am new always results in people helping me out politely. For example, I asked what an accurate site picture looked like using iron sites, and I got a very great set of responses. How much more newbie can you get???
As for this thread, it's like the Energizer Bunny...;)
NightFighter
08-25-09, 17:46
The people that have mod/staff/IP or SME next to their name are always good to listen to.
C4
Grant,
That is what I needed to know for future reference. Once again you have come through with helpful information.
NightFighter
08-25-09, 17:54
The only time I have ever gotten bashed on this forum is in the General Discussions area when talking politics, which is to be expected. That aside I have found that most everyone on this forum is very amiable when it comes to questions about guns. Granted some people are quick to be abrupt, or gruff, but so what. The way I look at the gun info on this forum is that I am a guest in someone's shop, or classroom. I am among giants when I think of some of the people that have taken the time to write and answer my questions!!! And I have found that saying I am new always results in people helping me out politely. For example, I asked what an accurate site picture looked like using iron sites, and I got a very great set of responses. How much more newbie can you get???
As for this thread, it's like the Energizer Bunny...;)
I guess one of my problems is that I never feel like I am among giants in any situation. I do feel that I am in a class room and that most people are trying to teach me the right way ( in there perspective) and I appreciate that information. I do know that much of the info I get on the internet has to be taken with a grain of salt. However, from my experience on this forum there are people who are willing to answer newbie questions with positive feed back even if they have been asked the same question over and over many times.
I hope it doesnt sound like I am down on this forum? Because I am not, otherwise I wouldnt be here at this time. This forum has helped me a great deal and I will always adivse others to come here for help and information.
With that being said I will stop hijacking this thread. :D And go back to reading the post in the forums and learning from the more experienced personnel.:p
Alaskapopo
08-25-09, 18:26
Fair enough. I am more than willing to listen to good or sound advice. Guess one of my problems is I dont know who or what is good or sound advice :].
I look at the persons background that is posted in their profile. If they are a firearms trainer, industry professional or a fellow LEO then I give their words more weight. Others I give less weight to regardless of their status as a moderator or regular member.
Pat
RogerinTPA
08-25-09, 18:37
I look at the persons background that is posted in their profile. If they are a firearms trainer, industry professional or a fellow LEO then I give their words more weight. Others I give less weight to regardless of their status as a moderator or regular member.
Pat
Even then, the advice "may" have to be taken with a "grain of salt"...depending on the individual, but for the most part, they provide accurate, timely and relevant information, to include experienced civilian members, including LEOs.
Alaskapopo
08-25-09, 18:41
Even then, the advice "may" have to be taken with a "grain of salt"...depending on the individual, but for the most part, they provide accurate, timely and relevant information.
True. I also look at the trends in the advice I am getting. For example if 10 guys on a thread say one thing and 2 disagree. I give more weight to the majority.
Pat
John_Wayne777
08-25-09, 20:57
Dont think I am thinned skinned. Just dont understand why people who have much more experience than I do feel they need to bash me for asking what they consider is a stupid question. Sure there are things I might be able to find if I knew the right search parameters. However, learning to search on a new site is difficult at times. Why not just tell me what parameters to use and not bash newbies. Yes I read the stickies at the start of a forum, but stickies dont answer all newbie questions. Like many post say each person is different and we have different questions.
...and that's 100% cool.
Just take into account that sometimes there are some passionate disagreements on some questions...as you can see in this thread. The question itself can sometimes be a lightning rod moreso than the individual asking it.
M4C is here to answer questions and help people find good information in the vast sea of bad info that surrounds us. ;)
M4C is here to answer questions and help people find good information in the vast sea of bad info that surrounds us. ;)
So M4C is like Lesotho, and...another site is like South Africa?
Bill Bryant
09-11-09, 11:08
Here's what I'm building for a KISS carbine unless someone can persuade me to do something different somewhere.
Already purchased:
Stag lower receiver
Stag/CMT lower parts
BCM mil-spec buffer tube and spring
BCM H-buffer
BCM charging handle
Magpul MOE stock
Magpul MOE grip
Magpul 30 round magazine
Magpul MOE handguard
Magpul MBUS rear sight
Not ordered yet:
BCM auto BCG
BCM 16" barrel/upper receiver group
Why a folding sight if you're not worried about clearing optics?
Generally, for home defense, you'll be told KISS is functional and nothing more (as already stated in this thread):
-quality upper with 1:7" twist, 4150 CMV steel, NATO chamber, F-marked FSB (BCM, Novekse, etc.)
-red dot sight (Aimpoint)
-mounted white light (Surefire)
-back-up sight (LMT, LaRue, DD A1.5, MBUS, etc)
-quality sling (VCAS or Magpul)
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