View Full Version : Person to person gun sales
montanadave
07-25-09, 14:48
Just out of curiosity, if I sell or trade a firearm which is registered to me but cannot produce a bill of sale or similar proof of transaction, how far is my ass out in the wind should that firearm end up in the wrong place or on the wrong person somewhere down the line? I realize there are some folks that just flat refuse to provide any record of a transaction but what is the reasonable standard for covering your ass?
Just out of curiosity, if I sell or trade a firearm which is registered to me but cannot produce a bill of sale or similar proof of transaction, how far is my ass out in the wind should that firearm end up in the wrong place or on the wrong person somewhere down the line? I realize there are some folks that just flat refuse to provide any record of a transaction but what is the reasonable standard for covering your ass?
I would refuse to sell to anyone who will not sign a bill of sale with their name on it.
In fact I won't sell to anyone who cannot produce our state's CHP/CCW permit. Our state does daily checks on all CCW permit holders to check on outstanding warrants etc. Since I don't know the guy and don't want to sell to an existing criminal I ask to see their CCW. If they can't or won't show it I don't do the sale. (Since I am not an FFL dealer then this of course is referring to private sales)
Just out of curiosity, if I sell or trade a firearm which is registered to me but cannot produce a bill of sale or similar proof of transaction, how far is my ass out in the wind should that firearm end up in the wrong place or on the wrong person somewhere down the line? I realize there are some folks that just flat refuse to provide any record of a transaction but what is the reasonable standard for covering your ass?
I guess my first question would be - why would your gun be "registered" in the first place? I'll assume you're talking about a trace done through dealer records.
You're not required to document anything in most states, so long as the sale is between residents of the same state. If the gun ends up in a crime down the road, it would undoubtedly be much "easier" if you had some record of the person to whom you sold it and when the sale took place, though lack of that record alone isn't going to get you fried if there is nothing else connecting you to the crime.
At a minimum I would demand to see proof that the person is a resident of your state (unexpired driver's license or current utility bill plus ID), then make note of their name, zip code, the date of the sale, and the serial number. Tuck that away somewhere "just in case."
1) You should personally check your state's laws on private transactions. There may be rules and requirements that you are unaware of or a "helpful" person online is unaware of. -I've lived in several states and each place (state or county) has had at least one minor difference on what the rules are.
2) Even if it is not required by law, it is a good idea to check if the buyer has a current CCW and to make a note of when the firearm was sold and to whom it was sold.
-Once you sell it and it's out there, it can go through all kinds of hands. I understand that people want a gun without a trail but it's fraught with all kinds of trouble when you're dealing with strangers. -You could be buying a stolen gun and not know it. You could be selling to an underage buyer. You could be selling to a prohibited person i.e. a felon or a person under a restraining order.
I remember reading a story about a guy who sold his pistol at a garage sale and the gun turned up at a murder scene. It was a drug related murder and the police instantly went back to the first guy on record to see how a gun he owned ended up there. It turned out the person who bought it was a stranger to him and was a convicted felon.
Years ago, the Washington Arms Collectors used to have a short bill of sale that was on one sheet of paper. The top half went to one party and the bottom to the other party. The advice was to always keep the paper just in case the gun was involved in a crime.
1) why would you all demand to see a CCW? It isn't required to legally own a firearm so I guess I don't understand what good this does and would you refuse sale to someone just because they didn't have a CCW?
2) How are you supposed to know if the person is a felon or has a restraining order or any of this? I mean, seems to me that a private sale is just that.
3) How are they able to 'track back' a firearm from a crime and come knocking on your door? If you sold a firearm within the guidelines of the law where you live I don't see how you can be convicted for anything or how you can be held liable for what the firearm did when you sold it (possibly even to someone else) years prior?
stevenhyde
07-26-09, 02:28
#1 because some lawyers are evil. if the gun is used in a murder....even if they dont convict you of that murder. whos to say the family of the victim wont sue you for selling a gun to someone you "know" is a criminal? now you may have just met the person you sold the gun to and he may seem like a law abiding citizen. you may not have any reason to belive this person is a criminal...but all a jury will hear is that you didnt take any precautions...you didnt ask any questions before you sold a gun to someone you "know" to be a criminal who cant own a gun.
maybe, just maybe you went to the same college as the shooter, or worked in the same store...eventhough you never met the man. the jury will just hear that you work at the same place and you "do" know each other.
and as soon as theres one thing that could possibly link you and the shooter, the jury may just see you as exactly like him.
yea. its bull****. id rather ask for a CHL to avoid that one-in-a-million life changing court room experience.
yes, im "paranoid" but asking to see a CHL isnt a big deal to me. the buyer either does and gets the gun or doesnt. ill sleep tonight either way.
about #3 you may or may not be convicted, but you will be hassled. and a legal bill of sale with a witness may help with taking away some of that.
possibly not but maybe.
1) why would you all demand to see a CCW? It isn't required to legally own a firearm so I guess I don't understand what good this does and would you refuse sale to someone just because they didn't have a CCW?
2) How are you supposed to know if the person is a felon or has a restraining order or any of this? I mean, seems to me that a private sale is just that.
3) How are they able to 'track back' a firearm from a crime and come knocking on your door? If you sold a firearm within the guidelines of the law where you live I don't see how you can be convicted for anything or how you can be held liable for what the firearm did when you sold it (possibly even to someone else) years prior?
CryingWolf
07-26-09, 03:04
Washington state has a form for Private Disposition/Transfer. I would fill it out, if they refuse to give me the info I need then no sale.
http://www.dol.wa.gov/business/firearms/faforms.html
You could always look for a similar form in your state.
#1 because some lawyers are evil. if the gun is used in a murder....even if they dont convict you of that murder. whos to say the family of the victim wont sue you for selling a gun to someone you "know" is a criminal? now you may have just met the person you sold the gun to and he may seem like a law abiding citizen. you may not have any reason to belive this person is a criminal...but all a jury will hear is that you didnt take any precautions...you didnt ask any questions before you sold a gun to someone you "know" to be a criminal who cant own a gun.
maybe, just maybe you went to the same college as the shooter, or worked in the same store...eventhough you never met the man. the jury will just hear that you work at the same place and you "do" know each other.
and as soon as theres one thing that could possibly link you and the shooter, the jury may just see you as exactly like him.
yea. its bull****. id rather ask for a CHL to avoid that one-in-a-million life changing court room experience.
yes, im "paranoid" but asking to see a CHL isnt a big deal to me. the buyer either does and gets the gun or doesnt. ill sleep tonight either way.
about #3 you may or may not be convicted, but you will be hassled. and a legal bill of sale with a witness may help with taking away some of that.
possibly not but maybe.
You're right, you're paranoid. Because someone has a CHL doesn't mean they haven't committed a felony or had a restraining order put on them since applying for the license and just because someone doesn't have a CHL doesn't mean they're a criminal. You do realize LOTS of people are gun fans w/o owning a concealed weapons permit, right? You don't HAVE to have a permit to conceal to own guns.
stevenhyde
07-26-09, 12:03
its true you dont have to have a permit. i never said you did. however you do have to have one to buy from me...because like i said earlier. id rather avoid hassle if i can.
yes someone may have a permit and they may have gotten a restraining order put against them afterwards....but like i said earlier. the jury will only hear (if you dont ask any questions or ask to see a CHL)that you didnt take any precautions before you put a weapon in the hands of someone you "knew" was a felon or had a restraining order against them.
You're right, you're paranoid. Because someone has a CHL doesn't mean they haven't committed a felony or had a restraining order put on them since applying for the license and just because someone doesn't have a CHL doesn't mean they're a criminal. You do realize LOTS of people are gun fans w/o owning a concealed weapons permit, right? You don't HAVE to have a permit to conceal to own guns.
its true you dont have to have a permit. i never said you did. however you do have to have one to buy from me...because like i said earlier. id rather avoid hassle if i can.
yes someone may have a permit and they may have gotten a restraining order put against them afterwards....but like i said earlier. the jury will only hear (if you dont ask any questions or ask to see a CHL)that you didnt take any precautions before you put a weapon in the hands of someone you "knew" was a felon or had a restraining order against them.
And asking for a CHL does this how? Seems to me that asking the buyer if they're a convicted felon is better plan of action than asking to see something that you couldn't verify anyway. I just think it's silly that you seem to think that 'Hey, I saw his CHL' will somehow hold an ounce of weight in court in this wildly inventive scenario you've painted. I just don't see it happening either way and denying the sale of a firearm to someone for lack of CHL is foolish. Kind of like not selling a Ford F150 to a person because they don't have a CDL endorsement on their license for fear of them crashing the truck and coming back on you.
1) why would you all demand to see a CCW? It isn't required to legally own a firearm so I guess I don't understand what good this does and would you refuse sale to someone just because they didn't have a CCW?
Well, *in Utah* the list of CCW holders is checked daily by the state -- compared against outstanding warrants, restraining orders that would affect gun ownership, etc and if a match occurs you get a visit by the cops who take your CCW license.
So having them show such shows they have recently (within the last day) been vetted. Since I don't want to sell to a gang banger or a felon this is an extra check. Is it fool proof? No, but it does provide more assurance than asking alone would do or doing nothing.
2) How are you supposed to know if the person is a felon or has a restraining order or any of this? I mean, seems to me that a private sale is just that.
3) How are they able to 'track back' a firearm from a crime and come knocking on your door?
They don't. They trace FORWARD. They take the serial number, and go to the manufacturer, who tells which dealer or distributor it was sold to, who then provides the customer or dealer it was sold to, etc until it gets to you.
If you sold a firearm within the guidelines of the law where you live I don't see how you can be convicted for anything or how you can be held liable for what the firearm did when you sold it (possibly even to someone else) years prior?
It becomes a big hassle and suspicion rests on you until it is shown that you sold it long ago and have nothing to do with it.
You notice in the paper all the time when a crime happens they later arrest the person who sold the gun to the perp for supplying guns to prohibited person. This is CYA
You're right, you're paranoid.
NO you are CYA.
Because someone has a CHL doesn't mean they haven't committed a felony or had a restraining order put on them since applying for the license
IN many states it does. In Utah the state checks the CCW permit roster daily by computer and sends out the boys in blue to pick up the licenses of people who have warrants, restraining orders, etc.
I knew a guy in NH that was arrested for touching his daughter inappropriately (he turned himself in based on guilt). A couple of days later the local police made a visit to his home and took his CCW permit.
and just because someone doesn't have a CHL doesn't mean they're a criminal. You do realize LOTS of people are gun fans w/o owning a concealed weapons permit, right? You don't HAVE to have a permit to conceal to own guns.
True, you don't. And I am not required to sell to anyone I don't feel comfortable with. So I choose to not sell a private sale gun to someone who does not have a CCW permit. He may be a valid gun owner and buyer, but it is my choice who I sell to.
1) why would you all demand to see a CCW? It isn't required to legally own a firearm so I guess I don't understand what good this does and would you refuse sale to someone just because they didn't have a CCW?
It is used to serve as a check that the person can have a gun.
2) How are you supposed to know if the person is a felon or has a restraining order or any of this? I mean, seems to me that a private sale is just that.
It is true that a person may have become subject to a restraining order since obtaining the permit or could've been convicted of a felony (and hid the old permit). However, the purpose is C.Y.A. and something is better than nothing.
Engaging in a private sale doesn't mean you try to avoid seeing or hearing anything that would preclude the sale. An honest mistake is one thing. Trying not to know is bad for you. If the police come to you with a gun you owned that is connected to a murder, you're the one with a problem. I'd prefer to be able to send them down the road to the person who bought it from me than to have to explain where I was and hope someone can confirm my alibi.
3) How are they able to 'track back' a firearm from a crime and come knocking on your door? If you sold a firearm within the guidelines of the law where you live I don't see how you can be convicted for anything or how you can be held liable for what the firearm did when you sold it (possibly even to someone else) years prior?
There are a few different ways to figure out how a firearm was purchased and from whom it was purchased. In the story I mentioned, the ATF tracked from the manufacturer to the distributor to the dealer. The ATF contacted the dealer about the pistol and got info on the customer through the 4473. I suppose if it had gone through two or three more sets of hands after the guy sold it at the garage sale they would've had more difficulty. -My point was that selling to someone you don't know can put you in a bad position, especially if you are trying not to see if the person is of age or is even in good standing.
One of the people who sold a gun to the Columbine shooters did get in trouble for his private sale to a minor. Another guy who helped arrange the deal also got in trouble.
When you put a gun in the hands of a prohibited person, you're going to be on the hot seat until the authorities and lawyers determine they can't do anything to you. If you want to give someone else that kind of power over your life, by all means, have at it.
And asking for a CHL does this how? Seems to me that asking the buyer if they're a convicted felon is better plan of action than asking to see something that you couldn't verify anyway.
Asking them is about as good as peeing in the wind. Of course they will tell the truth. AS you apparently don't know, states do NOT issue a CCW and then forget about it. They make an effort to withdraw licenses from people who are not supposed to have them. I outlined what Utah does. I'd bet most states have similar procedures.
Also, a very high percentage of CCW holders remain law abiding citizens. So the fact that someone has one is better proof statistically that someone is OK than to merely ask them. Since most CCW licenses remain valid and the people were vetted at least once. It is not full proof but it increases the odds that the person is an OK person to sell to.
I just think it's silly that you seem to think that 'Hey, I saw his CHL' will somehow hold an ounce of weight in court in this wildly inventive scenario you've painted. I just don't see it happening either way and denying the sale of a firearm to someone for lack of CHL is foolish.
You are welcome to sell to someone who does not have a CCW permit. Some of us choose not to. But it is not foolish. The chances of the person being OK by showing a CCW permit is higher than out of the random crowd someone wanting to buy a gun with no background info on him
Kind of like not selling a Ford F150 to a person because they don't have a CDL endorsement on their license for fear of them crashing the truck and coming back on you.
And this example makes sense how?
stevenhyde
07-26-09, 13:09
you "think" its silly. the difference is...i "know" its not silly. its entirely possible. it may never happen to you or anyone you know. that doesnt mean its never happened before. now does it?
now i dont expect anyone to watch all this, but its helpful to anyone. civilian or otherwise.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc
its called "dont talk to police" its a former lawyer and an officer explaining events where people said one innocent thing that cant incriminate you, and they still got convicted....eventhough they were innocent. it doesnt have much to do with this exact scenario. however it is a video showing how one little thing that you doubt will have an effect on anything can change everything. one little word or action as innocent as it can be, can be turned around by a lawyer and send you to prison. some little action like not asking a question. ill ask that question.
thank you e-guns and outrider.
And asking for a CHL does this how? Seems to me that asking the buyer if they're a convicted felon is better plan of action than asking to see something that you couldn't verify anyway. I just think it's silly that you seem to think that 'Hey, I saw his CHL' will somehow hold an ounce of weight in court in this wildly inventive scenario you've painted. I just don't see it happening either way and denying the sale of a firearm to someone for lack of CHL is foolish. Kind of like not selling a Ford F150 to a person because they don't have a CDL endorsement on their license for fear of them crashing the truck and coming back on you.
by the way. i have nothing against leo. however i know plenty of officers try to enforce "laws" that arent. im a bicycle rider and you may or may not know the law concering them. ive met 4 officers in the past 2 months who hasseled me for breaking a "law" that wasnt. i didnt tell them they were wrong. i didnt want to dig a hole for myself. i let them do what they want without pissing them off. ill take it up with and discuss it with the people who know what theyre talking about. like i said no offense to officers. but i hate being hassled for riding my bike on the road. when in fact its illegal to ride on the sidewalk(which is where they told me to ride.) rant off.
All of the bickering sounds a bit silly. Provided state and federal laws are complied with the terms of a private sale are between the two parties involved. That includes the time and location for the transaction, compensation, what documents one or the other wishes to have. If the parties don't come to an agreement then nothing happens.
If a seller want to sell to someone with a CCW he can do that. If the buyer doesn't want to show or provide a copy of one he doesn't have to. No different than if they can't agree on price or where to meet. Not necessarily a right/wrong issue, just part of the negotiation process.
My state doesn't require any paperwork for transfers which suits my preference anyway. Some like it, some don't. That's why some people I deal with and others I don't but I don't make a big issue if they have another preference I just don't do business with them. Pretty simple really.
you "think" its silly. the difference is...i "know" its not silly. its entirely possible. it may never happen to you or anyone you know. that doesnt mean its never happened before. now does it?
now i dont expect anyone to watch all this, but its helpful to anyone. civilian or otherwise.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc
its called "dont talk to police" its a former lawyer and an officer explaining events where people said one innocent thing that cant incriminate you, and they still got convicted....eventhough they were innocent. it doesnt have much to do with this exact scenario. however it is a video showing how one little thing that you doubt will have an effect on anything can change everything. one little word or action as innocent as it can be, can be turned around by a lawyer and send you to prison. some little action like not asking a question. ill ask that question.
thank you e-guns and outrider.
by the way. i have nothing against leo. however i know plenty of officers try to enforce "laws" that arent. im a bicycle rider and you may or may not know the law concering them. ive met 4 officers in the past 2 months who hasseled me for breaking a "law" that wasnt. i didnt tell them they were wrong. i didnt want to dig a hole for myself. i let them do what they want without pissing them off. ill take it up with and discuss it with the people who know what theyre talking about. like i said no offense to officers. but i hate being hassled for riding my bike on the road. when in fact its illegal to ride on the sidewalk(which is where they told me to ride.) rant off.
I don't even need to click that link and I know exactly what the video is. I fail to see how that has any bearing on this conversation though.
All of the bickering sounds a bit silly. Provided state and federal laws are complied with the terms of a private sale are between the two parties involved. That includes the time and location for the transaction, compensation, what documents one or the other wishes to have. If the parties don't come to an agreement then nothing happens.
If a seller want to sell to someone with a CCW he can do that. If the buyer doesn't want to show or provide a copy of one he doesn't have to. No different than if they can't agree on price or where to meet. Not necessarily a right/wrong issue, just part of the negotiation process.
My state doesn't require any paperwork for transfers which suits my preference anyway. Some like it, some don't. That's why some people I deal with and others I don't but I don't make a big issue if they have another preference I just don't do business with them. Pretty simple really.
Agreed. This is why I'm not buying into people trying to convince people to get a CHL/CCW or no sale. If they want to go overboard that's just fine, nothing wrong with that but trying to convince others that they are going to somehow be prosecuted for not doing is the part I'm in disagreement with.
Agreed. This is why I'm not buying into people trying to convince people to get a CHL/CCW or no sale. If they want to go overboard that's just fine, nothing wrong with that but trying to convince others that they are going to somehow be prosecuted for not doing is the part I'm in disagreement with.
Come now, no one has claimed that if you don't check for a CCW permit you *will* be prosecuted. People have only said what they do and why. If you choose not to that is your business.
However, it is not going overboard to ask to see it and to not sell if it is not produced. It is being prudent and doing your part in keeping guns out of the hands of bad people and also as a CYA measure. People have been prosecuted for selling guns to prohibited people. CYA is not unreasonable. That does not mean you will be prosecuted so don't go saying I contradicted myself. You won't be prosecuted for not checking a CCW permit. You might be prosecuted for selling to a prohibited person if indeed that happens and they get caught. So checking CCW permits is a way to try and avoid selling to a prohibited person.
CryingWolf
07-26-09, 14:01
All arguments about CHL, CDL etc. aside. I would not sell anyone a firearm without a valid ID from my home state. There is nothing in the law or in the second amendment that says the seller of a firearm can't require any forms of ID that they so choose.
With that said; I probably would not require a CCW, especially for a long arm. I would require a sales form to be filled out, such as the one on the WA DOL website. I WOULD REQUIRE A VALID WA STATE ID. The great thing about the WA Disposition/Transfer Form it puts the questions back on the buyer such as "I certify that I am eligible to possess a pistol/revolver under RCW 9.41.040 or RCW 9.41.045." on the signature line. I would probably produce something similar for a long arms.
At the end of the day; It is the right of the seller to put what ever terms they wish upon the buyer. I am sure everyone here understands that the seller has the right to refuse the sale. Just as the buyer has the right not to buy if they don't like the terms of the sale.
P.S. I will sleep just fine at night knowing I did my part to make sure this sale doesn't come back to haunt me. If they (the buyer) doesn't like it, then go buy from a gun store; I don't want to sell to you anyway.
stevenhyde
07-26-09, 14:07
i said it doesnt directly correlate to the thread. however it is a reason to avoid hassle. which is what this threads about.
the OP wanted to avoid a probem in the future. i and a few other people gave advice on how you can avoid trouble. the video gave instances of how something you "think" can bring you no trouble actually "can" ruin your life. so maybe the OP will consider something he never did before. maybe someone will realize that not asking for a CHl for whatever reason(maybe you are a person who wouldnt show your CHL so you dont ask to see theirs or maybe you dont want to lose a sale and you think the guy will walk if you ask for a CHL(both things ive seen)) can bring you trouble you never imagined.
this convo is about avoiding trouble that can come by selling a gun. the video shows it doesnt matter if youre innocent, a single word, or not saying a single word can get you thrown in jail. innocent or not. you cant trust the law to protect you. you need to cover your own butt. this video opens my eyes to a kink in the armour(so to speak)
I don't even need to click that link and I know exactly what the video is. I fail to see how that has any bearing on this conversation though.
CryingWolf
07-26-09, 14:27
Agreed. This is why I'm not buying into people trying to convince people to get a CHL/CCW or no sale.
If I was asking for the CCW and they didn't have one chances are they wouldn't have time to get a CCW, which would take weeks to a month, by then I probably would have already sold the firearm. I wouldn't necessarily be trying to convince them to get a CCW.
Although I think everyone who can should anyway!!!
CryingWolf
07-26-09, 14:34
You know this can go both ways. Maybe I don't want to buy a firearm from anyone without a bill of sale as to the seller. How do I know the history of a firearm from the buyers point of view? Maybe the firearm was used in a crime and I have no proof of when, where and from whom I purchased said firearm. That would suck.
montanadave
07-26-09, 14:49
You know this can go both ways. Maybe I don't want to buy a firearm from anyone without a bill of sale as to the seller. How do I know the history of a firearm from the buyers point of view? Maybe the firearm was used in a crime and I have no proof of when, where and from whom I purchased said firearm. That would suck.
That's an excellent point and one I hadn't even considered. I did take a look at the Washington state form and it seems like the bare minimum I would want for my own piece of mind. I appreciate the feedback from everyone. I wanted to test the waters to determine if I was being paranoid about covering my ass and, given the opinions shared in this thread, I'm comfortable with walking away from a sale if the buyer (or seller) refuses to provide adequate identification, documentation, etc.
If I was asking for the CCW and they didn't have one chances are they wouldn't have time to get a CCW, which would take weeks to a month, by then I probably would have already sold the firearm. I wouldn't necessarily be trying to convince them to get a CCW.
Although I think everyone who can should anyway!!!
I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I meant convincing people who are selling a firearm to get a copy of a CCW.
I do try a convince everyone I come into contact with to get a conceal carry permit through examples and reality checks whenever possible though and agree that that more permit holders we get better for our cause.
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