The best way for target acquisition inside a building?

[high888]

I have been practicing with my M&P 15 at 50 and 100 yards using the detachable
handle sight that comes standard with this weapon. I have it zeroed it in pretty good. I can consistently hit a head shaped sized target at 100 yards using the small sight hole on the rear sight.

Yesterday I was practicing quick fire at no more than say, 30 feet. I would keep the
butt of the rifle on my shoulder with the barrel pointing down, then quickly bring it up and fire. At first I completely ignored the sights, and just pointed the barrel in the direction of fire. I was aiming for the head. Five or six quick shots. Some hit, some did not. All would hit when pointing the barrel at the body.

Then using the larger hole on the rear sight, I would raise the weapon, acquire the target, and fire. Pretty much 100% of the shots would hit my spot. But this was slower and took a slight amount of time to acquire the target.

My question is when inside (or outside) at very close distances, what is the best way to aim and shoot? Just raise the weapon, forget the sights, and blast away
in the general direction? I can only imagine that in a real life situation, primal instincts take over, the rule book is forgotten, and sort of point in the general direction and start pulling the trigger as fast as you can.


I'm sure somebody has experienced this when clearing a house in Irag or Afgan.
I doubt you say "hold on a minute while I focus my scope". "OK, I'm ready, and then BAM".

[Luke_Y]

Use the sights. Large aperture. Practice... You will become quicker. Repetition is the key here. Stop with the head shots for now. Work on getting all your rounds on target center mass quickly with the sights. Then move to the head shots if you want. Or, staple a 3x5 index card high center mass and work on hitting that quickly with a couple of rounds EVERY time. Buy 1k rounds and get to work :)

At very close range point shooting can be viable. Many would suggest that it’s not really much faster- and certainly less accurate than sighted fire. But regardless, only something to work at AFTER you have mastered using the sights effectively.

With regards to "primal instincts taking over". You will likely default to the level in which you are trained to competency. Thus the suggestion to buy allot of ammo and train using the sights. Look for a 2-3 day carbine course to take if you can.

As for speed/accuracy in close quarters. It's hard to beat a good red dot sight. An Aimpoint or EOTech. Both eyes open, nothing to focus. But, once again only after you are proficient with using the Iron sights quickly up close.

PS Have a good time. :)

[Irish]

Just raise the weapon, forget the sights, and blast away in the general direction? I can only imagine that in a real life situation, primal instincts take over, the rule book is forgotten, and sort of point in the general direction and start pulling the trigger as fast as you can.
Are you serious? You are responsible for every round flying in the "general direction" of whatever you're aiming at. Read the rules of gun safety and start practicing, alot.

[R Moran]

Sights, every time...

1- As noted you are responsible for every round fired

2- The surest way of ending the fight quickly is accurate, rapid, effective hits to the CNS

3- Your only real backstop is the bad guy

4- Errant rounds may hit innocents, friendlies, or equipment you may not want to damage.

You must remember to hold over, approximately 2.5 inches

I use the small aperture, and pretty much ignore the large. Switching to the large, changes your zero, and is generally less accurate.

Another technique is to aim slightly over the rear site, using the front sight post as normal, this will give you the added elevation to forgo holding over, but again its not as precise.

Paul Howe's new rear sight, looks interesting, and I need to give it a try.

Aimpoints are generally the way to go.

I do not thing you need to "master" the irons sights first. You need to master trigger manipulation before all else.

Bob

[high888]

Simply inquiring about instincts. True, a person will revert back to what they are comfortable and know best. I don't mean "spraying" the area. But at such close
range I wanted to know if sights even come into play. When I tried "not" using them
at all, the rounds did tend to spray somewhat. Taking the extra fraction of a second to utilize the rear sight resulted in much better results. So that answers the question. And as always, practice makes perfect. ;)

[JSantoro]

Every round you ever fire deserves a sight picture, whether it's through irons or an optic, particularly the rounds you pay for.

If you train to that standard, it will become your instinct and serve you best if the time to use it ever comes.

[Cameron]

It depends. Nothing is really cut and dried when fighting with guns at very close ranges as one would expect inside a dwelling.

It is really going to be determined by the range and the circumstances, there are times when you really would not and should not acquire sight alignment and there are other times when it is imperative. Imagine if you will a situation where you are inside at extreme close range, think someone making a grab for the barrel, simply orienting the muzzle at the largest part of him you can and dumping a few rounds maybe what is called for. Of course accurate aimed fire is certainly prefferable to contact shots in a dark kitchen.

As the guys say here, practice quick reaction shots to the torso at all ranges, from contact to 300yards and you will quickly realize the best way to get rounds into COM the fastest.

Cameron

[Ash Hess]

888, you entered a world where we are all striving for the best way to do exactly what you asked about. Some of us are well practiced, some of us think we are well practiced, some of us don't know squat by still type anyway.
But, I would suggest that you look into some classes or courses. There are a wide range of programs available. Look to your local range for the most practical.
there are programs such as Appleseed for basics all the way to former Delta Operators. Each course and instructor brings a little more "software" to the fight.
You dont rise to the occasion, you fall to highest level of training

[Failure2Stop]

You have to see what you need to see to get the level of accuracy the situation requires as fast as you can.
At extremely close range it is a viable technique to point and click. The viability of the technique comes with training and repetition.
For anything that allows me to put an optic or aiming device between me and the threat I will be using an aiming device or technique.
For situations that require a degree of precision betond that afforded by other techniques I will be utilizing the aiming device in a rapid fashion.
These techniques require training and repetition with an understanding of the concept and technique.

What it comes down to is that you can't miss fast enough when you are in extremely close quarters. Simply "hitting" a torso sized target is not meeting the precision requirements needed. You don't need "hits", you need effective hits. The size of the target for guaranteed effectiveness is smaller than most people realize.

There is a reason that the world leaders in CQB use optics, and it isn't because they look cool.

[A-Bear680]

Every shot needs a visual index. What kind and how fast depends on the situation.

This is the right place to begin to learn.

[R Moran]

You have to see what you need to see to get the level of accuracy the situation requires as fast as you can.
At extremely close range it is a viable technique to point and click. The viability of the technique comes with training and repetition.
For anything that allows me to put an optic or aiming device between me and the threat I will be using an aiming device or technique.
For situations that require a degree of precision betond that afforded by other techniques I will be utilizing the aiming device in a rapid fashion.
These techniques require training and repetition with an understanding of the concept and technique.

What it comes down to is that you can't miss fast enough when you are in extremely close quarters. Simply "hitting" a torso sized target is not meeting the precision requirements needed. You don't need "hits", you need effective hits. The size of the target for guaranteed effectiveness is smaller than most people realize.

There is a reason that the world leaders in CQB use optics, and it isn't because they look cool.


F2S, good points, not sure I can or should anything, but, what the hell....

Someone once said, CQB is not about shooting fast, its about precision shooting.

Here's my take,

While I need accuracy to hit a bad guy at 300mtrs, if its a peripheral hit, or relatively ineffective,...
- bad guy, if he's like many troops around the world, will tap out
- bad guy will drive on, like alot of hooah dudes, but he not 100%, and will only continue to deteriorate
- I still have 300mtrs to continue to work him over.

At 3 mtrs, well its do or die for sure, there is no tap out, etc. So you need to end it now, as many people far smarter then me have said, the surest way of doing that is with rapid ACCURATE hits to the CNS.

Some other thing to think about...

A motivated adversary may not be impressed with a shot to his arm
Body armor
Cover
No shoots, including vital equipment
CQB can very quickly become not so CQB. Some of the facilities I've worked in, routinely offered 100mtr + shots, inside.

I mention this, because its usually much easier to dial back the precision, and crank up the speed, rather then the other way around.

While in training, a friend of mine, was all over the silhouette, but fast. We had a lively discussion, where as he believed, one quick shot, would stun the adversary, and allow him, to set up for a better shot on said stunned adversary.
I pointed out what I saw as the flaws in that theory..
What if you don't get the second chance?
If all you train to do is make fast shots, where will the skill come from for the precision shot?
In the end he admitted, at least my target with the solid hole in it, looked better.

One of our instructors, makes the point when doing failure drills, discipline on the body leads to discipline on the head.

IF you go to Paul Howe's web site, and look thru his articles, you'll find one titled, tactical shooting, a few thoughts, or something like that.
In it, he has a section on "point shooting" and why he doesn't believe in it, very good read.

Sorry for the bit of a rant, but I see a point shooting debate brewing.

Bob

[Blake]

...... And as always, practice makes perfect. ;)


Not exactly. Practice makes permanent. If you are out there practicing bad or completely wrong techniques, and you get really good at those poor techniques. Then you have just become really good at being bad. I'm not jumping on you. However, you must see the point that you have to have a solid foundation then build upon that with effective practice. This mostly comes from high level unit or organizational department training, or seeking out quality training from top of the line instructors. Take away from that class what is useful and makes you a more effective fighter, and then practice on your own those proven techniques.