View Full Version : Calling all AR armorers...
Im curious as to where you received your AR armorers certification. Who currently offers quality armorers training/certification on the AR15 weapon system? Please bear in mind that I am not LEO if that is prereq. Thanks in advance.
What is your intended puropse for taking the course? Is it to fix your own stuff and give you a more in depth understanding or is it to try and gain employment?
Bushmaster/ U.S Training Center (formerly known as Blackwater) teaches a course still as far as I know.
Specializedarmament/ Ken Elmore teaches a course but I believe that it is limited to .MIL/.GOV/LE and similar entities.
I think that Dean Caputo teaches a course that is open to all personnel.
Long Mountain Outfitters out in Henderson, NV teaches some course as well. I took the M203 course from them when no one else had one available.
Im curious as to where you received your AR armorers certification. Who currently offers quality armorers training/certification on the AR15 weapon system? Please bear in mind that I am not LEO if that is prereq. Thanks in advance.
IG put up the list.
Take them all if you can, and take them often.
I got mine on uncle Sam’s dime at Aberdeen Proving Grounds Maryland. MOS 45B small arms repairer.
The SAW Armorer class gives you a Colt certification.
The last Bushmaster Armorer class was given by Blackwater in Dec. 2008. They no longer have that contract. They now offer USTC Armorer cert, 3 years.
Tier 1 Group now offers Bushmaster Armorer cert and has classes in Aug and October, 2009.
7.62,
The SAW class says LE/Gov/Mil only, but there are some "civi-friendly" PD's out there that will allow you to attend the class. This of course, is if Ken says that it is ok. He's a real gun guy and if you talk to him, he may let you in. It's well worth the try.
Bread is People
07-28-09, 20:49
I guess I'm kind of in the same boat as the OP. I'd like to learn just for the sake of learning. The fact that I work at a gun shop is another reason. Maybe next summer, after I finish college.
Another question. How much do these type of courses usually run for non-gov/mil/le personnel? Also, how long are they?
Colt's official policy is they don't certify people outside LE/mil and they don't do the armorer's class for non-LE/mil.
That said, its possible you could sneak into one of the instructor and the host are OK with you attending and you contact them privately.
As mentioned, Dean Caputo also teaches a class that isn't an official Colt armorer's class, but rather his own "Carbine Diagnostic" class. It's geared more toward users rather than builders and toward diagnosing and understanding the system. You'll do plenty of disassembly and reassembly of the gun, but you won't delve into the details of disassembly of the A2 rear sight or replacing barrels, etc. It's 2 days, I think it's $200 or $250.
USTC does have an armorer course.
Greg Sullivan ar Defensive Edge teaches to non LEO.
You'll do plenty of disassembly and reassembly of the gun, but you won't delve into the details of disassembly of the A2 rear sight or replacing barrels, etc. It's 2 days, I think it's $200 or $250.
i'd heard even the official colt armorer's course didn't do barrel swapping, which struck me as absurd
Hey all, first post...what's up? I'll be taking an AR15/M16 course through Public Agency Training Council this Sept. through my agency...anyone ever heard of them?
I fixed my SNAFU. :D
USTC does have an armorer course.
That's correct. I can't remember the exact arguments, but they didn't really fly with me. Doing a proper barrel change is more important than knowing what a Colt 727 carbine is.
i'd heard even the official colt armorer's course didn't do barrel swapping, which struck me as absurd
That's correct. I can't remember the exact arguments, but they didn't really fly with me. Doing a proper barrel change is more important than knowing what a Colt 727 carbine is.
the Abu Dhabi? hey, you probably actually have a chance of seeing one, over there in the 'box
wikipedia will tell you all about that- but wiki wont tell you how to swap a barrel.. ironic
Mr.Goodtimes
07-28-09, 22:22
That's correct. I can't remember the exact arguments, but they didn't really fly with me. Doing a proper barrel change is more important than knowing what a Colt 727 carbine is.
how do you "properly" change a barrel? i didnt think it was that complicated. seems like something you should be able to damn near figure out on your own if your mechanically inclined and know a little about the weapon system/how it works.
The Navy actually calls some of their "M4's" 727 carbines. When I was in Bahrain the MAA's were using them.
the Abu Dhabi? hey, you probably actually have a chance of seeing one, over there in the 'box
wikipedia will tell you all about that- but wiki wont tell you how to swap a barrel.. ironic
Proper means not using Loc-Tite or Rocksett, using a small amount of anti-seize on the threads, not over-torquing, best way to remove and FSB, if needed, etc.. etc...
how do you "properly" change a barrel? i didnt think it was that complicated. seems like something you should be able to damn near figure out on your own if your mechanically inclined and know a little about the weapon system/how it works.
how do you "properly" change a barrel? i didnt think it was that complicated. seems like something you should be able to damn near figure out on your own if your mechanically inclined and know a little about the weapon system/how it works.
It’s not difficult if you have the proper tools and a little guidance.
I would also recommend Greg Sullivan of Defensive Edge/SLR-15. He does both LE & non-LE classes, and he travels around alot.
Robb Jensen
07-29-09, 05:02
I'm curious as to where you received your AR armorers certification. Who currently offers quality armorers training/certification on the AR15 weapon system? Please bear in mind that I am not LEO if that is prereq. Thanks in advance.
I got my Bushmaster AR cert, initial SIGARMS cert, HK P2000 and USP certs, S&W M&P at Blackwater. Glock directly from Glock (1st at PWC Police Academy, 2nd time at FFX Police Academy), the newest SIG-Sauer cert from SIG LE training (Rappahannok Criminal Justice Academy), FN at FN.
Soon I'll also be getting Remington long guns. Probably Colt ARs and 1911s, USTC AR, Mossberg and S&W for ARs. And I was scheduled to go to the KRISS armorers class (all dealers for it have to go).
But the best stuff I learned while hangin' out at my dads old work at Quantico VA (PM Ground Weapons/Firepower) and with some old salty 2112s.
Buckshot TX
07-29-09, 20:39
My AR cert came from Blackwater. It's the only AR course I've taken but I have quite a few other Armorer schools under my belt & it was a well-done class IMO.
If you just want to do this for personal reasons to work on your own guns, I would try to find someone in your area and have them teach you rather than paying for a class.
Or buy your own tools and learn it yourself. It isn't that hard.
Mr.Goodtimes
07-30-09, 18:39
Proper means not using Loc-Tite or Rocksett, using a small amount of anti-seize on the threads, not over-torquing, best way to remove and FSB, if needed, etc.. etc...
alright thats what i thought. I've had the barrel off and on my gun a few times and i wanted to make sure i was doing it right. I didnt know if i was missing something like having to tickle my butthole and then tighten the barrel nut then loosen it again or something crazy like that.
i guess i sort of thought of the above as well, common sense. then again, i read a lot of m4carbine.net so..
PRGGodfather
07-30-09, 21:27
Lassen College School of Gunsmithing.
Mine was SAW/Elmore/Colt. And while Ken was great, yeah, the Colt line was not to do barrel/upper receiver changes. But, by golly, I can sure work on the A2 adjustable sight......(sighs).:rolleyes:
Actually, most of the course was good and covered lots of good info. Seems like Colt didn't want people in general to remove front sight bases because of the way it is done by Colt. It was related to us that Colt mounts, drills and pins the front sight all at one time on a special jig/machine and once the sight is removed it will not line back up well. Also the taper pins are inserted under 5 tons of force and are really not designed to be removed. At least not on a Colt. I know that many of the 2nd/3rd tier manufacturers front sights are not assembled to the TDP standard and are no where near as hard to remove(straight pins, set screws, roll pins, etc.). And, in some cases, the pins are not even a tolerance or interference fit. They are just tapped in! That = JUNK!
I do wish Colt would at least cover disassemble/reassemble of the barrel/upper receiver for information purposes. FWIW
Stay frosty, my Brothers!
Ofc. JL:D
The issue with armorers schools is that they are always geared towards either that manufacturers weapon OR the weapon that the guy teaching likes the best.
This is all fine if you own said weapon, but you if you do not, not everything is going to line up.
For instance, if you go to a Colt or S&W armorers class, they are NOT going to teach you about installing FF rail systems.
Some of them MAY teach you about headspacing or they might ignore it and teach you how to put together an A2 sight (which is a huge waste of time IMHO).
I have often thought about putting a class together geared toward civy's that want to learn about customization using the current, most popular gear. So you would learn how to install a LT, DD, KAC rail. How to fit a bolt to a barrel, how to assemble a BCG from SCRATCH, gas port sizes in relation to barrel length and all the other things that actually matter.
C4
CaptainDooley
07-31-09, 10:59
That would be a class I would be interested in (were it local). I've heard the horror stories of the Colt class having you disassemble and reassemble the A2 sight multiple times and I have no interest whatsoever in learning that...
The issue with armorers schools is that they are always geared towards either that manufacturers weapon OR the weapon that the guy teaching likes the best.
This is all fine if you own said weapon, but you if you do not, not everything is going to line up.
For instance, if you go to a Colt or S&W armorers class, they are NOT going to teach you about installing FF rail systems.
Some of them MAY teach you about headspacing or they might ignore it and teach you how to put together an A2 sight (which is a huge waste of time IMHO).
I have often thought about putting a class together geared toward civy's that want to learn about customization using the current, most popular gear. So you would learn how to install a LT, DD, KAC rail. How to fit a bolt to a barrel, how to assemble a BCG from SCRATCH, gas port sizes in relation to barrel length and all the other things that actually matter.
C4
That would be a class I would be interested in (were it local). I've heard the horror stories of the Colt class having you disassemble and reassemble the A2 sight multiple times and I have no interest whatsoever in learning that...
I would like to do them (mabye could talk GOTM4 into doing them with me). :D
The issue is that neither of us have any free time.
C4
CaptainDooley
07-31-09, 11:02
Now there's a feeling that I am intimately familiar with...
The issue is that neither of us have any free time.
C4
Jay Cunningham
07-31-09, 11:04
I would like to do them (mabye could talk GOTM4 into doing them with me).
I would make time to attend this.
For something comprehensive and geared toward OUR applications? Hell yeah, certs or no certs, it'd be worth it.
Ohio is relatively central, too. wink wink nudge nudge
I just sent you a PM Grant, Thanks, Chris
The issue with armorers schools is that they are always geared towards either that manufacturers weapon OR the weapon that the guy teaching likes the best.
This is all fine if you own said weapon, but you if you do not, not everything is going to line up.
For instance, if you go to a Colt or S&W armorers class, they are NOT going to teach you about installing FF rail systems.
Some of them MAY teach you about headspacing or they might ignore it and teach you how to put together an A2 sight (which is a huge waste of time IMHO).
I have often thought about putting a class together geared toward civy's that want to learn about customization using the current, most popular gear. So you would learn how to install a LT, DD, KAC rail. How to fit a bolt to a barrel, how to assemble a BCG from SCRATCH, gas port sizes in relation to barrel length and all the other things that actually matter.
C4
Hey Grant.
Not only would I be very interested in attending a course put on by your company, I would also like to explore being an Instructor for said course. I have my state's LE instructor certificate, am very knowledgeable on the AR platform, and am looking to do something else after 18 years behind the Badge. I have other qualities we could discuss. Interested? Let me know and I will email you.
Thanx,
Ofc. JL:D
But I'm not sure I could arrange to fly down from alaska solely for the class, maybe it coule work out to tie in with one of the other family priorities and I could make it a "combo" trip.
If you do go for it though, what about making a DVD at the same time? I'd spring for one if them in a heartbeat.
Thanks, Chris
Seems like Colt didn't want people in general to remove front sight bases because of the way it is done by Colt. It was related to us that Colt mounts, drills and pins the front sight all at one time on a special jig/machine and once the sight is removed it will not line back up well. Also the taper pins are inserted under 5 tons of force and are really not designed to be removed.
We were told that also. Sometimes we would get a rifle in with a bent ear on the FSB. We would bend them back, but sometimes they would break, so we would strip the parts off and trash the barrel.
Im curious as to where you received your AR armorers certification. Who currently offers quality armorers training/certification on the AR15 weapon system? Please bear in mind that I am not LEO if that is prereq. Thanks in advance.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=8&f=20&t=365969
Here is a course by Greg Sullivan that is open enrollment for August 5 and 6 in Gunnison CO. Said today he still has a few open spots.
Hey Grant.
Not only would I be very interested in attending a course put on by your company, I would also like to explore being an Instructor for said course. I have my state's LE instructor certificate, am very knowledgeable on the AR platform, and am looking to do something else after 18 years behind the Badge. I have other qualities we could discuss. Interested? Let me know and I will email you.
Thanx,
Ofc. JL:D
That sounds good, but I have too many irons in the fire as is at the moment to take on any new adventurers.
I mobile armorer school would be popular for sure I think.
C4
Robb Jensen
07-31-09, 17:43
I would like to do them (mabye could talk GOTM4 into doing them with me). :D
The issue is that neither of us have any free time.
C4
I would love too someday, but you're right I don't have the time.
CaptainDooley
07-31-09, 17:49
If you guys ever do and you want to make a DVD of it - fly me up and let me take the class and I'll do the video production and DVD. Seriously - it's what I do for a living.
Bread is People
07-31-09, 19:39
I have often thought about putting a class together geared toward civy's that want to learn about customization using the current, most popular gear. So you would learn how to install a LT, DD, KAC rail. How to fit a bolt to a barrel, how to assemble a BCG from SCRATCH, gas port sizes in relation to barrel length and all the other things that actually matter.
I live right about an hour and a half away, so I'd definitely want to be a part if this ever materializes.
The DVD is also an excellent idea. I'd vouch more for a good video course on this stuff rather than a class because you can go back to it for reference. Best of all, you would only have to make it once or twice (beginner and advanced levels), not multiple times every every year.
Grant,
Thats what I am interested in. Traveling Armorer Instructor. I will Email you thru G&R with my qualifications. And yeah, I know, due to the current political climate, I bet you are jumping thru your hat. I think it's starting to slow a little, however.
I'll be in touch.
Thanx,
Ofc. JL:D
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