View Full Version : Basic Utility Of An AR For Home Defense
There is a thread going on over in Training forum about use of a suppressor and it's legal aspects in home defense. But I am wondering about the AR platform from a penetration standpoint.
I recently saw a "Best Defense" TV segment that demonstrated a .223 AR, a 9mm pistol and a shotgun with 00 buck and birdshot. All but the birdshot gun penetrated several layers of house frame wall. I sit here with my properly set up AR looking at my house and neighborhood. I live in the typical suburban neighborhood with frame houses on all sides. The aluminum siding barely keeps out hail balls in a thunderstorm. Drywall and siding will be like tissue paper to a 55gr 2600fps AR round. Also true of a 9mm Glock round.
Also I hold no illusions about my, or anyone's, accuracy of aim in the dark, in a desperate, do or die shootout.
It appears that after spending a fair amount of cash for a good AR, I am back to using my Grandfather's double barrel shotgun filled with birdshot. This gun has provided security for a variety of my families for nearly a hundred years.
Is my thinking here wrong?
I am back to using my Grandfather's double barrel shotgun filled with birdshot. This gun has provided security for a variety of my families for nearly a hundred years.
Is my thinking here wrong?
On so many levels.
Jay Cunningham
07-28-09, 09:07
It appears that after spending a fair amount of cash for a good AR, I am back to using my Grandfather's double barrel shotgun filled with birdshot. This gun has provided security for a variety of my families for nearly a hundred years.
Is my thinking here wrong?
Yes, your thinking here is wrong. You have opted to revert to an inferior weapon and ammunition combination simply on the basis of internet lore. The FACTS are that a 10.3" to 16" AR carbine with the proper ammunition has a *much better* chance of quickly incapacitating a threat and a *much lower* chance of sailing through structure walls as compared to most pistol rounds and buckshot.
Birdshot is not an effective way to stop a threat. And before the guys who post "it's better than nothing" - of course it is. But a rubber mallet is also better than nothing.
I think the real issue is that you need to get comfortable with your AR - that means working on your manipulations and marksmanship. You should consider a class from a professional trainer.
The reason to use a gun for home defense is to get the bad guy to stop being a threat as quickly and decisively as possible. Bird shot does not reliably do this. Anything that will penetrate a bad guy reliably enough to stop him from trying to kill you will also penetrate walls - this illustrates the importance of training. You also mention the potential lack of accuracy during a high stress encounter (implying the need for more shots) and then limit yourself to a gun that only holds two rounds.
I believe tests have shown that .223 is less dangerous after going through walls than is buckshot.
Once my AR is completed and has been satisfactorily tested it will be my goto home defense gun rather than the 12 gauge that currently holds that assignment.
It appears that after spending a fair amount of cash for a good AR, I am back to using my Grandfather's double barrel shotgun filled with birdshot.
If that birdshot won't even go through drywall, what makes you think it's going to penetrate deeply enough to stop the drunken mad man kicking down your door?
recon by fire
07-28-09, 09:11
Also I hold no illusions about my, or anyone's, accuracy of aim in the dark, in a desperate, do or die shootout.
If it's dark and you can't see what you are shooting at, should you be shooting at all? Wouldn't an AR with a surefire light solve this problem and be a better choice than a double barrel firing blindly into the darkness?
If that birdshot won't even go through drywall, what makes you think it's going to penetrate deeply enough to stop the drunken mad man kicking down your door?
And when you've fired BOTH of your rounds, you're done.
Nothing wrong with using the AR platform for home defense, and more damage is done by the bullet when it gets further downrange. If you're truly worried about it, though, check into using frangible bullets instead. theyre designed to penetrate and fragment internally instead of punching holes in someone and blowing out the backside. Not saying you wont get penetration with it, but it will definitely slow it down quite a bit ;)
I recently saw a "Best Defense" TV segment that demonstrated a .223 AR, a 9mm pistol and a shotgun with 00 buck and birdshot. All but the birdshot gun penetrated several layers of house frame wall. I sit here with my properly set up AR looking at my house and neighborhood. I live in the typical suburban neighborhood with frame houses on all sides. The aluminum siding barely keeps out hail balls in a thunderstorm. Drywall and siding will be like tissue paper to a 55gr 2600fps AR round. Also true of a 9mm Glock round.
I saw that segment on "Best Defense" that you're talking about. The first thing I noticed was that their several "test" walls were strictly sheetrock and framing. There was no insulation- much less copper and PVC plumbing, electrical wiring, etc.
I would've really liked to see those variables included in the demonstration. I'm sure their effect would have been marginal in terms of stopping a rifle round. But I think it really shorted the whole experiment.
I have little doubt that those guys probably know what they're talking about. And I'm all for erring on the side of caution. But when it's me and my family's life in question- I'm always going to reach for the most overwhelming force I can get to.
I have a good S&W M&P15 AR with Surefire G2 light mounted and an Aimpoint ML3sight that has seen several thousand rounds through it. Additionally I have had the good US Army BCT training in combat shooting albeit oriented toward jungle warfare not CQB. We didn't need CQB in those days. Yes it's been a while. Perhaps a CQB course is called for. I'm not talking about training here but penetration and background.
My AR is great shooting gun but a miss in my neighborhood will go through not only my walls but at least two other homes as well. Safety Rule #4 be sure of your target and it's background. 360deg from where I sleep there is no suitable background.
Yes, birdshot does not have as good a terminal ballistics. I accept that premise. But I don't see any other alternative.
This discussion is not relevant to folks out in the country with lots of land around.
I noticed was that their several "test" walls were strictly sheetrock and framing. There was no insulation- much less copper and PVC plumbing, electrical wiring, etc.
I'm actually glad they did it the way that they did. What they presented was the worst-case scenario. Almost no interior residential walls will have insulation, few will have anything electrical, and even fewer will have plumbing pipes in them.
If your concern is for those OUTSIDE the home and not inside then things like brick, insulation, siding, etc. may come into play.
To the OP...
somewhere I recall seeing some ballistic gellatin that had been shot with birdshot of various types, from low-brass skeet loads to high-brass turkey loads. I was less than impressed.
What I would like to see a video of, just to see if it reinforces what I think already, is some testing of shotgun ammo where they first shoot the wall, then shoot the gellatin. Show me what it does to the wall then show me what it does to "flesh". Start with low brass and run all the way up to buckshot and slugs.
Hell, if I could do gellatin I'd do the test myself.
As far as the 2 rounds thing goes, do you know what a "goose hunters reload" is?
No it's not as fast as a semi auto rifle but I have had good luck tactically reloading a double barrel shotgun.
Also I have a good Surefire Z2 combatlight so I'm not really shooting in the dark.
Penetration of background is the issue here.
Seems like I have stirred up everybody to think this through. Good.
Oh, I so lothe these types of discussions especially when "birdshot" is thrown in the mix. But, let's look at this for a second shall we?
A double-barrel shotgun which is loaded with an inferior round, no way to illuminate or identify a target unless you go ghetto-Fudd style with a flashlight and some tape and then only two rounds. Now insert 2-3 attackers into the situation and you are essentially screwed. One need only watch the news and see the trend of multiple douche-nozzles entering by force, sometimes wearing body armor and then killing or robbing the occupants.
Why on earth would you set yourself up for such a failure? I could care less if they take my supressed SBR or whatever and beat off with it for two years while it sits in evidence. I will at least be alive and at some point I am either going to get my property back or I am going to sue someone. If my family and I are dead because I opted for the double-barrel shotgun what's the point?
Jay Cunningham
07-28-09, 09:44
Seems like I have stirred up everybody to think this through. Good.
No offense, but this has been "thought through" more times than you can possibly imagine.
;)
Seems like I have stirred up everybody to think this through. Good.
Don't flatter yourself. ;)
When considering weapons and ammunition for home defense, consider what your local police and the more well funded federal agencies use.
How many of them would use birdshot if making an arrest in your neighbourhood?
How many of them use a handgun with a round from 9mm to .45, perhaps a subgun in a similar caliber or a 5.56 carbine?
If the LE types have decided not to use birdshot when making a felony stop or serving a warrant in my neighbourhood I think I will follow their example.
Cameron
Don't flatter yourself. ;)
Actually, this new debate has convinced me to quit using my coach gun for HD starting tonight.
Seriously though....
I'll never understand the logic of those who build their ultimate AR carbean.... then turn around and lock it up at night and bust out the bird gun for protection.
recon by fire
07-28-09, 09:54
As far as the 2 rounds thing goes, do you know what a "goose hunters reload" is?
I know where you are coming from. I've been a bird hunter all my life. You will find that most people on the internet that discount bird shot for home defense, they usually lack much experience in actually using bird shot. They think that it's all like the low base #8 dove and quail loads. I've seen some actually use ballistic data from such loads(to argue their point). Truth is there is large bird shot that is not much smaller than #4 buckshot. If I were going to use bird shot, I would use atleast lead BB shot and probably a 3" magnum. Do not use steel shot. Also don't discount the AR carbine, it maybe a better choice than a shotgun.
I apologize to all if this has been discussed already. This has bothered me for a while and I did do a search. The best I came up with was Grant's thread on SBR's and silencers. I agree that a double barrel with birdshot is not optimal but neither is my AR that overpenetrates.
On an AR forum I figured things to be biased toward AR's but I was hoping for some ideas to help me with this dilemma. What should I grab the 100 year old scatter gun or the newer AR ??
Thanx guys for the commentary so far.
Thomas M-4
07-28-09, 10:05
As far as the 2 rounds thing goes, do you know what a "goose hunters reload" is?
No it's not as fast as a semi auto rifle but I have had good luck tactically reloading a double barrel shotgun.
Also I have a good Surefire Z2 combatlight so I'm not really shooting in the dark.
Penetration of background is the issue here.
Seems like I have stirred up everybody to think this through. Good.
If you every have to defend your home from an armed home invasion and your choice's are an AR-15 or grandpa's double barrel 12ga. Do you really think you will choose the double barrel? With that being said I do own a HD shotgun but its not grandpa's double barrel its a Mossberg 590 a1 loaded with seven shell's of Hornady TAP 00 buck.
Another dumb question. Could frangible .223 bullets be a solution to my dilemma?
On so many levels.
MANY LEVELS.
Birdshot is for wounding. Remember that dead men tell no tales! ;)
There is a reason that SWAT teams all across the US have gone to the AR. This should be considered a "clue."
C4
I apologize to all if this has been discussed already. This has bothered me for a while and I did do a search. The best I came up with was Grant's thread on SBR's and silencers. I agree that a double barrel with birdshot is not optimal but neither is my AR that overpenetrates.
On an AR forum I figured things to be biased toward AR's but I was hoping for some ideas to help me with this dilemma. What should I grab the 100 year old scatter gun or the newer AR ??
Thanx guys for the commentary so far.
This is a defensive forum (more than an AR forum).
If you use a Hornady TAP round, you are not going to to shoot through your house and kill a neighbor. If you are shooting M855, then yes you will.
Just like anything else, you need to pick the right tool for the job.
C4
Mr.Goodtimes
07-28-09, 10:11
There is a thread going on over in Training forum about use of a suppressor and it's legal aspects in home defense. But I am wondering about the AR platform from a penetration standpoint.
I recently saw a "Best Defense" TV segment that demonstrated a .223 AR, a 9mm pistol and a shotgun with 00 buck and birdshot. All but the birdshot gun penetrated several layers of house frame wall. I sit here with my properly set up AR looking at my house and neighborhood. I live in the typical suburban neighborhood with frame houses on all sides. The aluminum siding barely keeps out hail balls in a thunderstorm. Drywall and siding will be like tissue paper to a 55gr 2600fps AR round. Also true of a 9mm Glock round.
Also I hold no illusions about my, or anyone's, accuracy of aim in the dark, in a desperate, do or die shootout.
It appears that after spending a fair amount of cash for a good AR, I am back to using my Grandfather's double barrel shotgun filled with birdshot. This gun has provided security for a variety of my families for nearly a hundred years.
Is my thinking here wrong?
OP, if your really worried about over penetration, get some 55gr Hornady TAP loads. They will be worlds better and more effective than birdshot, however, they wont over penetrate. I doubt theyll make it out of your house and into your neighbors, from the balistics testing ive seen, they appear to pretty much disintegrate when they hit a person/ something hard.
Another dumb question. Could frangible .223 bullets be a solution to my dilemma?
It is better than using the shotgun. With that said, a lot of the frang ammo out there is not reliable and expensive.
Stick with Hornady 55gr TAP. It will fragment very quickly and is a lot less likely to kill someone in another room (compared to HG ammo and 00 Buck).
C4
It is better than using the shotgun. With that said, a lot of the frang ammo out there is not reliable and expensive.
Stick with Hornady 55gr TAP. It will fragment very quickly and is a lot less likely to kill someone in another room (compared to HG ammo and 00 Buck).
And frangible can behave like a solid in soft tissue. It's really better left in the role it's meant for.... ricochet reduction on hard targets.
And frangible can behave like a solid in soft tissue. It's really better left in the role it's meant for.... ricochet reduction on hard targets.
I agree. Frang really is not the answer.
C4
Stick with Hornady 55gr TAP. It will fragment very quickly and is a lot less likely to kill someone in another room (compared to HG ammo and 00 Buck).
C4
Thanks Grant, et al, that is the answer I was looking for. What does TAP stand for? Is TAP available for my 9mm also?
Thanks Grant, et al, that is the answer I was looking for. What does TAP stand for?
Tactical Application Police.
http://www.hornadyle.com/products/detail.php?id=72&sID=73
C4
Thanks Grant, et al, that is the answer I was looking for. What does TAP stand for? Is TAP available for my 9mm also?
TAP stands for Tactical Application Police.
It is available in 9mm.
More info can be found here: http://www.hornadyle.com/products/
SGM (ret.)
07-28-09, 10:59
Does anyone know of any on-line LEO after action reviews for actual felon shoots using either the 40gr. or 55gr. 223. TAP?
The Hornady web site testomonials are pretty much fluff, as on would expect. However, the product description info is good so far as it goes.
After reading this thread, I'm getting interested in this ammo. Maybe a mag or two on-hand when the AR isn't on the range. Right now I pretty much keep a pistol ready for home defense use.
If the terminal effects of the lighter grain Hornady 223. TAP at very short ranges is substantially better than my hand gun loads, a change may be in order.
Does anyone know of any on-line LEO after action reviews for actual felon shoots using either the 40gr. or 55gr. 223. TAP?
The Hornady web site testomonials are pretty much fluff, as on would expect. However, the product description info is good so far as it goes.
After reading this thread, I'm getting interested in this ammo. Maybe a mag or two on-hand when the AR isn't on the range. Right now I pretty much keep a pistol ready for home defense use.
If the terminal effects of the lighter grain Hornady 223. TAP at very short ranges is substantially better than my hand gun loads, a change may be in order.
Ask Doc in the terminal ballistics section of the forum.
C4
I just put away the scattergun. This afternoon I'll purchase a couple of boxes of Hornady 55gr TAP assuming it's not law enforcement only.
My weapon is zeroed using 55gr Black Hills FMJ. I suppose I should at least check it's zero with the new ammo.
I have some 2x4 lumber and scrap drywall and insulation. Perhaps I'll build a couple of wall sections and try to simulate my typical situation and see what happens with the TAP. It seems a good idea to know for sure that my neighbors will be safe. I'll post the pictures when I get this done.
I can save you some trouble. The rounds will go through the drywall. Even the TAP.
What is at issue is how fast they are moving once they go through and what effect they have on soft targets when they get there.
One issue I have with this idea of shooting naked drywall is that it appears to me to be training to miss. One of the reasons for the switch to 5.56 in these roles is not just the round after it passes through bare drywall but more importantly the round after it passes through (or fails to pass through) the bad guy.
Doc has a quote here (http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19881)that really should have been cited earlier
Only after proper foundational and ongoing repetitive refresher training, cultivating warrior mind-set, and ensuring weapon system reliability do you need to worry about ammunition selection. Most folks would be far better off practicing with what they have, rather than worrying about what is "best". As long as you know your what your weapon and ammo can realistically accomplish, it is all just a matter of training and shot placement. I would much rather go into battle with a guy who practices 15,000 rounds a year using generic 55 gr FMJ out of his old M16A1 than with some guy that has the latest state-of-the-art ammo and rifle, but only shoots 500 rounds a year.
I'm a bird hunter and candidly I've shot dove, duck and turkey with bird shot and they don't die.
not going to be my first through fifth choice for home defense.
I would agree about the "best" but I would pick something that meets minimum FBI penetration specs, at least for heavy clothing.
On that note, I wonder if a list that excludes car windshield failure etc. would be helpful for HD ammo? Ammo that just makes minimum penetration on gel and heavy clothing could be the best choice for urban HD.
I just put away the scattergun. This afternoon I'll purchase a couple of boxes of Hornady 55gr TAP assuming it's not law enforcement only.
My weapon is zeroed using 55gr Black Hills FMJ. I suppose I should at least check it's zero with the new ammo.
Zeroing with your "go to" ammo is certainly the best practice, but if you're only looking at home defense distances (10-15 yards or less) it's not going to make any difference. What I would try to remember is that there is a 2.5" offset between your sights and bore, which means that at very close range, any ammo is going to be 2.5" low - so remember that.
Rob
Certainly training is an issue here. The question is what weapon do I focus on to train with?
I don't want to degrade this thread into a discussion of #6 birdshot vs .223 terminal ballistics. Any fool knows that answer, even me.
Perhaps the proper question to be asking is "How can I use my AR in an environment with frame house backgrounds?" .
I thought the Hornady 55gr TAP was a possible answer but Rob seems to be dashing that idea. Reading the Hornady marketing stuff seemed like TAP ammo might work for me.
What are the folks in apartments and condo's doing?
Perhaps the proper question to be asking is "How can I use my AR in an environment with frame house backgrounds?" .
I've got homes on three sides. I've noted where I can hole up and wait for an intruder (because I realized a long time ago that I'm not trained to clear a home), and have a clear lane to fire on them. It just so happens to work out that one is in the bedroom. If I were to fire on someone trying to enter my bedroom, there'd be nothing but a hill behind them (along with the washing machine and dryer). Basically, one whole wall of my house would be ok to fire at. The back wall.
This works for me, because we don't have kids, I won't need to move. If it's late at night, I'll know where my wife is... she'll be on the phone, right next to me. If they want to stand out in the living room and take my DVD collection, fine. It's all insured. If they want to try and enter the bedroom... they'll take some fire. As has been said, train enough to hit what you are shooting at. If you can't keep 'em in a human sized target at 12-14 feet (the average size of most rooms), get an air horn and a scary mask and just scare the sh*t out of them.;)
I'm not dashing anything.
I'm suggesting that you've already come to your conclusion and that this conclusion is going to color whatever you see with your test of 55 grain TAP in a drywall partition.
Rob
I like to think that I am an objective thinker.
You guys have convinced me to put away the shotgun. Now the question remains what ammo can I use in the AR ie How can I use the AR in a poor background situation. I am going to give the TAP a try on multiple drywall panels and see what happens. The Hornady marketing text is encouraging. If Rob is right I am back to where I started. If not you guys gave me a valuable idea.
I am open to better ideas!!
Training and practice could certainly help and I am actively pursuing that. That said I don't feel that any amount of training and practice is going to make me into a perfect shot. That's based on a year spent in a real down range situation when I was well trained, albeit 40 years ago. Also the training I recently looked at appears to be assault oriented ie for LE and military. I'm not likely to charge a target from 50 meters in my neighborhood. Nor even try to clear my house alone.
Yes I agree it's going to be hard to miss in a 48 inch wide hallway at 15' range. But I absolutely cannot threaten my neighbors in any HD situation.
All ideas better than an AR shooting TAP (after proper training and practice) are more than welcome.
I thought the Hornady 55gr TAP was a possible answer but Rob seems to be dashing that idea.
Thats not what I am seeing. In short here is my synopsis:
55gr TAP in an AR is good to go in the residential setting so long as you hit the bad guy first. Miss the bad guy and even the 55gr TAP will go sailing through residential (drywall and studs) walls all day long. So the key here is marksmanship along with the correct ammo choice. Hit the bad guy and there will probably be some over penetration, but after the round exits the bad guy, travels through the air, then traverses 3/4" drywall, then 4" of air space, then the next 3/4" of drywall the chances of the round doing any serious damage on the other side are low. Hit the bad guy first. That's they key. That's one of the benefits of the AR. You have a more stable platform that is easier to employ. That's my $0.02 at least.
decodeddiesel
07-28-09, 14:14
All ideas better than an AR shooting TAP (after proper training and practice) are more than welcome.
Hire ninjas.
Keep in mind:
1. As already noted the drywall tests do not reflect exterior walls which may definitely involve insulation and some type of hard external surface or combination of surfaces such as stucco, brick, slate, etc.
2. The average person can punch through two sections of drywall easily, so it really doesn't offer much cover from anything or a good litmus for safety from penetration.
3. As already stated by many, the double barrel with birdfshot is wrong on many levels:
A. Inadequate terminal effects of the birdshot.
B. A limit of two rounds. People talk bout reloading a double quickly--well that's in the hunting field with no one shooting at you. Compare this to a pump action shotgun that can be made ready to fire the next shot without removing the gun from the shoulder or taking the hands away from the firing position. There is a reason why police used pumpguns and semiautos rather than doubles.
C. No means of illuminating and positively identifying the target.
Finally, it's actually good when people bring up topics like this once in a while as long as the people are reasonable and not deaf to explanations about why their choice is wrong, since it lets us revisit it in a positive way. A variety of different posts from different people keep the board interesting. Now if it happened every week, like on some boards, it would be annoying.
Hire ninjas.
:D
Originally Posted by 91Bravo
All ideas better than an AR shooting TAP (after proper training and practice) are more than welcome.
Myself and many here would recommend seeking professional training from a well established school and/or instructor so that you increase your abilities, become more proficient and are more prepared should the situation arise.
Also, when you conduct your test on multiple pieces of drywall I encourage you to use a velocity chronograph prior to entering and when exiting your target so that you have an idea of the reduced velocity and the possible penetration it might have afterwards... just a thought.
Yes I agree it's going to be hard to miss in a 48 inch wide hallway at 15' range. But I absolutely cannot threaten my neighbors in any HD situation.
All ideas better than an AR shooting TAP (after proper training and practice) are more than welcome.
Call 911
Calling 911 is a given in any scenario.
It sounds like the consensus is to get enough training and practice so that I can hit the BG(s) with my first shot(s). Even TAP ammo won't really help if I miss. Am I understanding this correctly?
I appreciate the lively discussion.
thopkins22
07-28-09, 16:17
It sounds like the consensus is to get enough training and practice so that I can hit the BG(s) with my first shot(s).
I think the consensus that that you need to train and practice until you can hit the bad man in the CNS or heart, with your first shot.;)
Jay Cunningham
07-28-09, 16:17
Calling 911 is a given in any scenario.
It sounds like the consensus is to get enough training and practice so that I can hit the BG(s) with my first shot(s). Even TAP ammo won't really help if I miss. Am I understanding this correctly?
I appreciate the lively discussion.
Yes!
:D
It sounds like the consensus is to get enough training and practice so that I can hit the BG(s) with my first shot(s). Even TAP ammo won't really help if I miss. Am I understanding this correctly?
Yes, you're correct.
Hire ninjas.
The workers comp insurance will kill him though.
Calling 911 is a given in any scenario.
It sounds like the consensus is to get enough training and practice so that I can hit the BG(s) with my first shot(s). Even TAP ammo won't really help if I miss. Am I understanding this correctly?
I appreciate the lively discussion.
"Sucat, his eyes uncovered!" *
* points to the first nerd to say where this came from
decodeddiesel
07-28-09, 16:51
"Sucat, his eyes uncovered!" *
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b200/decodeddiesel/picard.jpg
So it turns out between the Girls Gone Wild videos I watched a lot of TNG in Iraq...
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b200/decodeddiesel/picard.jpg
So it turns out between the Girls Gone Wild videos I watched a lot of TNG in Iraq...
Winner and LMFAO
BufordTJustice
07-28-09, 23:07
As has been said, any rifle/handgun bullet or shotgun load that can effectively kill a man will easily penetrate interior walls. Even magsafe and extreme sh*t (oops...I mean extreme shock) will fail to break up and end up going FMJ on you.
Stay away from birdshot:
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=109958&sid=b9781f91a066e3c743964b8342f0a4af
scroll down and look at the DISMAL terminal performance that it offers...and this wasn't even through denim. :/
Pick what works based on fact, not fear:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot14.htm
Pick a rifle and non-FMJ round or a handgun round and get good with it. Add a light and a sighting device (red dot for a rifle or tritium/Fiber Optic sights for your handgun). Next, practice until your thinker hurts. Rehearse angles and avenues of fire. Get to know your home...in the dark. If penetrating fire is still a concern and you only live in a one-story neighborhood, taking a knee as you fire your weapon can turn you bullet into a cross-county-lob as opposed to a super lethal wall-piercer. If your neighborhood is extremely densely packed or has 2-story homes in it...just aim well. Your BEST backstop is an intruder's body. :cool:
I applaud the level of patience shown for topics discussed ad nauseam.
Search button must be broken again.
I apologize to all if this topic has been covered too often.
I have been lurking here nearly a year and never saw anything that exactly answered my question. I did do a search and saw the discussion under shotguns about what ammo. I saw the discussion that Grant recently started about his SBR and use of a suppressor, etc etc. But nothing quite like what I was asking.
Sounds like the answer is TAP, training and practice.
Thank you to all who showed me respect and patience.
We can let this thread die now.
recon by fire
07-29-09, 06:51
I'm a bird hunter and candidly I've shot dove, duck and turkey with bird shot and they don't die.
Stay away from birdshot:
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/view...964b8342f0a4af
scroll down and look at the DISMAL terminal performance that it offers...and this wasn't even through denim. :/
First of all, I want to say that I'm not recommending birdshot for home defense. An AR carbine or a shotgun loaded with buckshot would be better than birdshot. My problem is that most internet disscussions on this topic make birdshot out to be worthless for HD.
Shotguns are only effective at close range. Beyond that of course it probably won't even penetrate denim at all. HD ranges are very close range.
To say that sometimes birds won't even die when shot with birdshot isn't entirely accurate either when comparing to HD. I too have shot many birds that didn't die. Hunting ranges are more like 20 yards and not typical HD range(inside 20 feet). HD is extremely close range and that's where the shotgun is powerful. Beyond extremely close range it loses it's power very fast.
It's my opinion that the shotgun world thread was slanted against birdshot in the way it was written. Like I said before, I'm not recommending birdshot for HD, there are better choices, and that link does prove that there are better choices than birdshot. I would just like to see an unbiased discussion about it for HD.
The picture below is from the link that was posted. I understand the terminal performance of birdshot. It's common sense things like clothing, bones, etc will slow the shot very fast compared to a bullet. Like I said, there are better choices, but this 7" deep massive wound cavity and nearly 12" of penetration seem to tell me that birdshot is not totally worthless for home defense.
I'm not trying to argue. I'm just saying that if all I had handy was a 12 ga loaded with lead BB 3" or 3 1/2" magnum, I would feel confident that I could stop an intruder, or intruders (with pump action). Now if I had the more common birdshot loads like 12 ga #8 shot 2 3/4" then I would not be confident, and that often times blanket statements are made, and they are not totally accurate, because there are many different types of loads.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v472/millwright/birdshot_1_kent_a-2.jpg
MSP "Sarge"
07-29-09, 11:00
Shotgun or your AR, make sure you have your weapon attached to a sling so you can go "hands on" if it comes down to it. If it can go wrong it will. Bullets don't always stop their intended targets on impact.
mattpittinger
07-29-09, 12:01
Penetration of background is the issue here.
This is the issue that it doesn't seem like anyone is really addressing fully. You keep saying that one round out of your AR is gonna go through one to three houses, and this simply isn't true. What load are you shooting? You might be surprised if you do a little testing of your own on what a 5.56 actually does when going through not only people but, sheet rock and aluminum siding. I keep the AR in my home loaded with 55gr TAP (V-Max). There are many other light weight "varmint" loads on the market that would work fine for your application. Is a 40-55gr V-Max(or any other quality polymer tip bullet) the most devastating load for defensive purposes? Maybe not, is it better than bird shot (4,5,6,7,8 size)? YES, period end of discussion. These light weight, high velocity rounds dump there energy quick, and effectively. One to two sheet rock walls ( not hitting anything but sheet rock "worst case situation") will stop most any 40 to 55 gr poly tip round. If the round hits pipes, wood, wire, ect it will most likely stop in the wall.
What am I trying to get across here is that there is no reason to choose an antiquated tool for your defensive purposes. There are options out there that will allow you to have the best tool for the job. In a "middle of the night holy shit what is going on?" situation, you do not want to have any more chips stacked against you than you already have. Limiting yourself in ammo, ballistic effectiveness, sights, and illumination just does not make good sense. Get the facts, and make an informed choice.:)
Preferred User
07-29-09, 12:30
I guess I am glad I live in a 90 year old house. Plaster over some kind of hard board with embedded metal mesh over wood lath. It sucks for running my wi-fi, but considering I have to use a concrete bit in my drill to get through it, darn solid. Guess I better worry about ricochet.
Hmmm. I wonder if the better half would understand my conducting some "experiments" in the house?
I keep a 12ga shotgun (Rem Police 870; fixed full choke) under the bed for home defense. Using an AR-15 to protect your home is crazy in my opinion. I have a Glock 19 and a 12 ga for that.
Who is coming after you anyway???? Seal Team 6..... You are normally faced with one or two intruders. The nice thing about the shotty is I do not have to be perfectly accurate to make hits. If you have seen any target hit with 00 Buck or #4 Pheasant at 20 ft than you know you do not want any part of those pellets. They mangle 1/4" plywood sheets sending chunks flying. I do not want to over-penetrate and I cannot expect great accuracy from myself being awaken suddenly with adrenaline pounding.
And what is this about a flashlight....oh here I am. Shoot this way please?????? ID targets....I know who is supposed to be in my home and who isn't. If the alarm goes off and you are not my wife whom is sleeping next to me or my dog than your fair game!!!!! Should have picked another home. If you have kids or guests than that seems reasonable, but I just cannot see why one prefers to have a light source...if the perp is not in the beam you can't see him, but he can see you. Just sounds bad. If someone is in my home than I am going to let them come into my sight picture...allow them to make noise, while I remain in the shadows.....
I keep a 12ga shotgun (Rem Police 870; fixed full choke) under the bed for home defense. Using an AR-15 to protect your home is crazy in my opinion. I have a Glock 19 and a 12 ga for that.
Who is coming after you anyway???? Seal Team 6..... You are normally faced with one or two intruders. The nice thing about the shotty is I do not have to be perfectly accurate to make hits. If you have seen any target hit with 00 Buck or #4 Pheasant at 20 ft than you know you do not want any part of those pellets. They mangle 1/4" plywood sheets sending chunks flying. I do not want to over-penetrate and I cannot expect great accuracy from myself being awaken suddenly with adrenaline pounding.
And what is this about a flashlight....oh here I am. Shoot this way please?????? ID targets....I know who is supposed to be in my home and who isn't. If the alarm goes off and you are not my wife whom is sleeping next to me or my dog than your fair game!!!!! Should have picked another home. If you have kids or guests than that seems reasonable, but I just cannot see why one prefers to have a light source...if the perp is not in the beam you can't see him, but he can see you. Just sounds bad. If someone is in my home than I am going to let them come into my sight picture...allow them to make noise, while I remain in the shadows.....
Please list your training background/experience.
Everything you basically said is as wrong as two boys f*cking.
C4
thopkins22
07-29-09, 13:05
Please list your training background/experience.
Everything you basically said is as wrong as two boys f*cking.
C4
You're asking for a list that doesn't exist.
It's almost comedy. "No need to aim with a shotgun." "What you need that there rifle for? That's a weapon of war! You going to war in that there house?" "ID my target? Hell no! That's for pussies. I kill everything that sets foot in my house that doesn't let me screw it."
You're asking for a list that doesn't exist.
It's almost comedy. "No need to aim with a shotgun." "What you need that there rifle for? That's a weapon of war! You going to war in that there house?" "ID my target? Hell no! That's for pussies. I kill everything that sets foot in my house that doesn't let me screw it."
Ah, this is where you would be mistaken. We see a lot of people with this type of opinions come right out of the Core or Army.
According to Vickers, very few people in the USA (as an example) would EVER get the same level of training as a Civy COULD get (when it comes to CQB fighting in daylight or night).
C4
You're asking for a list that doesn't exist.
It's almost comedy. "No need to aim with a shotgun." "What you need that there rifle for? That's a weapon of war! You going to war in that there house?" "ID my target? Hell no! That's for pussies. I kill everything that sets foot in my house that doesn't let me screw it."
Come live in Atlanta and then see how you feel. I am luckily moving soon. I knew I would get a lot of backlash from my opinion, but I could care less. I am not trying to pretend to be some Commando type.....maybe I should get some claymores and an extra recoiless rifle in the garage. I need 8-30 round mags and one in the rifle for some knucklehead dope addict that has intruded my home. I refuse to plan my life around the extremely unlikely, highly pessimistic apocolyptic scenarios.... I need to be ready for WWIII in my home. It's bad to think along those lines.....
If I need those things they are in the safe and in their on site storage areas. I have a nice molle rig, but I don't sleep with it on....
I keep a 12ga shotgun (Rem Police 870; fixed full choke) under the bed for home defense. Using an AR-15 to protect your home is crazy in my opinion. I have a Glock 19 and a 12 ga for that.
Who is coming after you anyway???? Seal Team 6..... You are normally faced with one or two intruders. The nice thing about the shotty is I do not have to be perfectly accurate to make hits. If you have seen any target hit with 00 Buck or #4 Pheasant at 20 ft than you know you do not want any part of those pellets. They mangle 1/4" plywood sheets sending chunks flying. I do not want to over-penetrate and I cannot expect great accuracy from myself being awaken suddenly with adrenaline pounding.
And what is this about a flashlight....oh here I am. Shoot this way please?????? ID targets....I know who is supposed to be in my home and who isn't. If the alarm goes off and you are not my wife whom is sleeping next to me or my dog than your fair game!!!!! Should have picked another home. If you have kids or guests than that seems reasonable, but I just cannot see why one prefers to have a light source...if the perp is not in the beam you can't see him, but he can see you. Just sounds bad. If someone is in my home than I am going to let them come into my sight picture...allow them to make noise, while I remain in the shadows.....
I highly recommend you go to the Training & Tactics portion of this website and begin reading in earnest.
Come live in Atlanta and then see how you feel. I am luckily moving soon. I knew I would get a lot of backlash from my opinion, but I could care less. I am not trying to pretend to be some Commando type.....maybe I should get some claymores and an extra recoiless rifle in the garage. I need 8-30 round mags and one in the rifle for some knucklehead dope addict that has intruded my home. I refuse to plan my life around the extremely unlikely, highly pessimistic apocolyptic scenarios.... I need to be ready for WWIII in my home. It's bad to think along those lines.....
If I need those things they are in the safe and in their on site storage areas. I have a nice molle rig, but I don't sleep with it on....
If I lived in "Hotlanta" I would choose an AR over a Shotgun (as your crime rate are high with home invasions on the rise).
No one here wants to be a "commando." What we are after is selecting the best weapon for the job and having proper training for said weapon.
Always plan for the worst and hope for the best.
Associating wanting to use an AR for HD with some kind of "Red Dawn" fetish, would be an error on your part.
C4
thopkins22
07-29-09, 13:28
If I need those things they are in the safe and in their on site storage areas. I have a nice molle rig, but I don't sleep with it on....
I'm not expecting the end of the world. I'm simply recognizing the fact that if I have the time to grab a long gun, I'm going to grab the long gun that allows me to fight with the most efficiency...for me(dare I say most) that's an AR.
Living in an apartment also plays into the decision, and every legitimate study I've seen says that my AR loaded with 55gr TAP is better from a liability standpoint than a pistol or shotgun would be.
I also recognize that there's a slim chance that someone may enter my home whom I don't want to kill/shoot. Identifying my target with a white light first is an absolute must. I don't want to shoot anybody, even some shithead thief...if they scurry at the possibility of a violent encounter then so much the better for my mental health after the incident. If they don't then they make the decision easy for me.
decodeddiesel
07-29-09, 13:34
I keep a 12ga shotgun (Rem Police 870; fixed full choke) under the bed for home defense. Using an AR-15 to protect your home is crazy in my opinion. I have a Glock 19 and a 12 ga for that.
Who is coming after you anyway???? Seal Team 6..... You are normally faced with one or two intruders. The nice thing about the shotty is I do not have to be perfectly accurate to make hits. If you have seen any target hit with 00 Buck or #4 Pheasant at 20 ft than you know you do not want any part of those pellets. They mangle 1/4" plywood sheets sending chunks flying. I do not want to over-penetrate and I cannot expect great accuracy from myself being awaken suddenly with adrenaline pounding.
And what is this about a flashlight....oh here I am. Shoot this way please?????? ID targets....I know who is supposed to be in my home and who isn't. If the alarm goes off and you are not my wife whom is sleeping next to me or my dog than your fair game!!!!! Should have picked another home. If you have kids or guests than that seems reasonable, but I just cannot see why one prefers to have a light source...if the perp is not in the beam you can't see him, but he can see you. Just sounds bad. If someone is in my home than I am going to let them come into my sight picture...allow them to make noise, while I remain in the shadows.....
:rolleyes:
That was the most uninformed drivel I have read on this site in ages.
Let me guess "the sound of me racking my 870 would be enough to send any home intruder running!"
Ah, this is where you would be mistaken. We see a lot of people with this type of opinions come right out of the Core or Army.
According to Vickers, very few people in the USA (as an example) would EVER get the same level of training as a Civy COULD get (when it comes to CQB fighting in daylight or night).
C4
I will agree with you whole-heartedly on this one. The civilian market has excellent training opportunities.
A well trained civilian shooter will put to shame the average grunt. I train local SWAT members, US Army Reserve, US Army ROTC students, and the occassional SDM qualification at Ft. Benning while the CMP was involved with M14 training earlier on in the Iraq War. That was some serious fun and an honor. They are all subpar shots. I mean sometimes downright pathetic marksman. Scares you to think these are the folks that will repsond in an emergency. I am not in any way trying to belittle the police departments, it's just the truth. They are damn good with pistols though. They only need some good training and not much to become much better marksman. They just don't know the mechanics of a good shot. Show them and they pick it up quick as lightning. They rarely have any flinch as they are used to firearms in general.
I did not reach my potential until trained outside in the civilian arena. I have mostly done long-range shooting with irons only (200, 300, 600 - 1000 yard). I know, I know....it's irrlevant to be able to shoot 1 MOA at distance. Nothing translates like NPOA, trigger control, sight alignment, confidence....right. It can be like a broken record sometimes. Go along with the dogma, follow the crowd, wait don't think for yourself, b/c you couldn't know. I do not want a 3000 FPS projectile getting loose in my home or neighborhood. If it gets loose it will travel far. Simple kinematic physics...you have a problem with that than take it up with Sir Issac Newton. Shotgun pellets will not leave my yard. Rifle bullets can if shot through a broken window or open door....
We got very little training in CQB in the 90's. Still mostly conventional stuff outside of the SOG's. Even those personel were highly specialty trained. I look forward to receiving superior training and am having fun learning a new rifle envelope, but I am not one of these.....the world is coming to an end freaks either.
:rolleyes:
That was the most uninformed drivel I have read on this site in ages.
Let me guess "the sound of me racking my 870 would be enough to send any home intruder running!"
No I keep one in the chamber on safe. I am not going to give up my concealment. Let them walk into my sight picture....
I would not mind if someone gave a rational explanation for the use of a flashlight though....my views are not etched in stone. I am not too full of it to realize I am ignorant about a lot of things.
Come live in Atlanta and then see how you feel. I am luckily moving soon. I knew I would get a lot of backlash from my opinion, but I could care less. I am not trying to pretend to be some Commando type.....maybe I should get some claymores and an extra recoiless rifle in the garage. I need 8-30 round mags and one in the rifle for some knucklehead dope addict that has intruded my home. I refuse to plan my life around the extremely unlikely, highly pessimistic apocolyptic scenarios.... I need to be ready for WWIII in my home. It's bad to think along those lines.....
If I need those things they are in the safe and in their on site storage areas. I have a nice molle rig, but I don't sleep with it on....
Stop. You're doing the same thing here you're doing in the cleaning thread.
Not cleaning a gun for 1k rounds does not equal not changing a car's oil for 50k miles, and keeping an AR for home defense does not equal sleeping in molle or claymores and all that other shit.
The idea that you're training ANYONE in the defensive or offensive use of a firearm, much less someone that's likely to go into harm's way (if your claims are to be believed) is terrifying.
decodeddiesel
07-29-09, 13:57
No I keep one in the chamber on safe. I am not going to give up my concealment. Let them walk into my sight picture....
I would not mind if someone gave a rational explanation for the use of a flashlight though....my views are not etched in stone. I am not too full of it to realize I am ignorant about a lot of things.
Go take a low light class with a reputable trainer. I promise you you will understand and appreciate the application of a white light in a low light CQB environment.
I keep my AR loaded with 75gr TAP (5.56mm) and don't feel any anxiety over penetration issues. Stopping the BG in my home with the best ammunition I have ready is my personal primary goal. I don't worry too much about a stray bullet that may but probably won't exit my home. I've worked out the free fire zones in my house to avoid bedrooms. I would also not be overly concerned about the 00 in my SG or the +P+ 9mm cartidges in my pistol. Some may flame me for this lack of worry about penetration, and that's okay too.
I keep a 12ga shotgun (Rem Police 870; fixed full choke) under the bed for home defense. Using an AR-15 to protect your home is crazy in my opinion. I have a Glock 19 and a 12 ga for that.
Who is coming after you anyway???? Seal Team 6..... You are normally faced with one or two intruders. The nice thing about the shotty is I do not have to be perfectly accurate to make hits. If you have seen any target hit with 00 Buck or #4 Pheasant at 20 ft than you know you do not want any part of those pellets. They mangle 1/4" plywood sheets sending chunks flying. I do not want to over-penetrate and I cannot expect great accuracy from myself being awaken suddenly with adrenaline pounding.
And what is this about a flashlight....oh here I am. Shoot this way please?????? ID targets....I know who is supposed to be in my home and who isn't. If the alarm goes off and you are not my wife whom is sleeping next to me or my dog than your fair game!!!!! Should have picked another home. If you have kids or guests than that seems reasonable, but I just cannot see why one prefers to have a light source...if the perp is not in the beam you can't see him, but he can see you. Just sounds bad. If someone is in my home than I am going to let them come into my sight picture...allow them to make noise, while I remain in the shadows.....
I will agree with you whole-heartedly on this one. The civilian market has excellent training opportunities.
A well trained civilian shooter will put to shame the average grunt. I train local SWAT members, US Army Reserve, US Army ROTC students, and the occassional SDM qualification at Ft. Benning while the CMP was involved with M14 training earlier on in the Iraq War. That was some serious fun and an honor. They are all subpar shots. I mean sometimes downright pathetic marksman. Scares you to think these are the folks that will repsond in an emergency. I am not in any way trying to belittle the police departments, it's just the truth. They are damn good with pistols though. They only need some good training and not much to become much better marksman. They just don't know the mechanics of a good shot. Show them and they pick it up quick as lightning. They rarely have any flinch as they are used to firearms in general.
I did not reach my potential until trained outside in the civilian arena. I have mostly done long-range shooting with irons only (200, 300, 600 - 1000 yard). I know, I know....it's irrlevant to be able to shoot 1 MOA at distance. Nothing translates like NPOA, trigger control, sight alignment, confidence....right. It can be like a broken record sometimes. Go along with the dogma, follow the crowd, wait don't think for yourself, b/c you couldn't know. I do not want a 3000 FPS projectile getting loose in my home or neighborhood. If it gets loose it will travel far. Simple kinematic physics...you have a problem with that than take it up with Sir Issac Newton. Shotgun pellets will not leave my yard. Rifle bullets can if shot through a broken window or open door....
We got very little training in CQB in the 90's. Still mostly conventional stuff outside of the SOG's. Even those personel were highly specialty trained. I look forward to receiving superior training and am having fun learning a new rifle envelope, but I am not one of these.....the world is coming to an end freaks either.Your ignorance on the topic of firearms, ballistics and tactics is very apparent from your posts. You should stop offering any advice, and just read.
I also call BS on you training anyone. Your lack of basic knowledge on the subject would lead one to believe that you have never been through a formal or recognized shooting school, much less an instructor level school. Heaven forbid you actually try to teach any of the things about which you have typed. The more you type, the more ignorant you appear to be on the subject matter.
I would not mind if someone gave a rational explanation for the use of a flashlight though....my views are not etched in stone.
I couldn't explain it adequately, but you need to attend a low light fighting course from a reputable trainer.
Point #1: Something like 80% of all armed encounters occur in diminished light environments.
Point #2: Gun fights are not static, but rather highly dynamic events; so knowing where non-combatants are when the event starts is not where they will be as the event unfolds. Being able to identify threats is as important as being able to neutralize the threats.
How can someone walk into your sight picture when it is pitch black and you cannot see?
recon by fire
07-29-09, 14:12
Someone should post the internet tough guy picture. You know the one, right?:D
stevenhyde
07-29-09, 14:24
:rolleyes:
Let me guess "the sound of me racking my 870 would be enough to send any home intruder running!"
seriously. you dont make sense. im not saying he makes perfect sense either.
but come on. hes HIDING! what makes you think he would make noise with his gun?
racking a gun is pretty close to using a light. i say that because they both have potential to alert a threat. something it seems he wouldnt do.
maybe the "racking a shotgun" remark should be used on someone whos not trying to stay hidden....
oh, by the way, i use a light and ill have a light on my home defense AR when its built.
p.s. he even said he would be sitting in the dark....waiting for them to come into his sight picture. that leads me to believe he will call the cops and take up cover in a bedroom or something. not go out and try to engage.
seriously. you dont make sense. im not saying he makes perfect sense either.
but come on. hes HIDING! what makes you think he would make noise with his gun?
racking a gun is pretty close to using a light. i say that because they both have potential to alert a threat. something it seems he wouldnt do.
maybe the "racking a shotgun" remark should be used on someone whos not trying to stay hidden....
You obviously don't understand sarcasm. Racking a shotgun is nothing remotely close to using a light for illuminating a potential target.
decodeddiesel
07-29-09, 14:31
seriously. you dont make sense. im not saying he makes perfect sense either.
but come on. hes HIDING! what makes you think he would make noise with his gun?
racking a gun is pretty close to using a light. i say that because they both have potential to alert a threat. something it seems he wouldnt do.
maybe the "racking a shotgun" remark should be used on someone whos not trying to stay hidden....
oh, by the way, i use a light and ill have a light on my home defense AR when its built.
JOKE
Noun
Singular
joke
Plural
jokes
joke (plural jokes)
1. An amusing story.
2. Something said or done for amusement.
You haven't been around here for very long so I will explain this to you. Most of the time these discussions of home defense tactics, procedures, and equipment break down much as this one did to where people are so steadfast and stubborn in this misplaced, or even fool hardy beliefs that they will ignore the prevailing, proven wisdom and rather accept their own misguided beliefs as truth. This is normally culminated by some moron posting:
"I don't need no AR for home defense, all I need to do is rack a shell (usually of birdshot) into my ol' 870 here and all them bad guys will go running!"
Hence my comment.
Someone should post the internet tough guy picture. You know the one, right?:D
Is this the right one ;)?
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_ZtefsH8f-P8/SnChpnYQdQI/AAAAAAAAApA/0-UML7Ru8AY/s800/TOS%20Tough%20Guy.jpg
decodeddiesel
07-29-09, 14:36
Training and Tactical Sub Forum:
https://www.m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?f=11
Home Defense Concepts and Equipment Thread (in said sub-forum):
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=32094
Low light Basics (in said sub-forum):
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=16114
Times change, do you? (in said sub-forum):
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=33406
Please if you don't understand the concepts presented in this thread go and read these posts and peruse that forum until you do.
seriously. you dont make sense. im not saying he makes perfect sense either.
but come on. hes HIDING! what makes you think he would make noise with his gun?
racking a gun is pretty close to using a light. i say that because they both have potential to alert a threat. something it seems he wouldnt do.
maybe the "racking a shotgun" remark should be used on someone whos not trying to stay hidden....
oh, by the way, i use a light and ill have a light on my home defense AR when its built.
p.s. he even said he would be sitting in the dark....waiting for them to come into his sight picture. that leads me to believe he will call the cops and take up cover in a bedroom or something. not go out and try to engage.
Thanks....someone understands.
Why would you try and engage someone trying to steal your TV. You want to kill someone for a TV????? No you don't....
If they come for you than let them get what they deserve. They meant to do you harm so I give them no benefit.
Again....it looks like I either will be happy to shut up and read. It is unfair to only allow for your point of view. How are you expected to learn if only you have the right answers????? I am an academic and a very learned man. My views are not set in stone. I can be convinced by data and facts not rhetoric or dogma. I am only attempting to learn to employ a rifle system in a new envelope and remind the rest of you to keep an open mind.
recon by fire
07-29-09, 14:44
ballistic, that's a funny pic, but I was thinking of a different one. It's funnier, I just remember it's a guy with stickers all over his computer.
ballistic, that's a funny pic, but I was thinking of a different one. It's funnier, I just remember it's a guy with stickers all over his computer.
So your response is insults. Very mature.
I train local SWAT members, US Army Reserve, US Army ROTC students, and the occassional SDM qualification at Ft. Benning while the CMP was involved with M14 training earlier on in the Iraq War. That was some serious fun and an honor. They are all subpar shots. I mean sometimes downright pathetic marksman. Scares you to think these are the folks that will repsond in an emergency. I am not in any way trying to belittle the police departments, it's just the truth.
You train SWAT and you don't know about low-light shooting techniques?!?! :confused: You really shouldn't post your BS resume here, you will be called on it. Sit back, read lots and lots and become educated about many things you have no clue about. Decodeddiesel posted the links, follow them.
stevenhyde
07-29-09, 14:59
i understand convos on message boards turn into that...all i was saying is your comment wasnt appropriate for hammonje. now was it?
to me it seems he would do exactly opposite of what you accuse him of.
which seems like a sound tactic. hide in the dark and call the cops. im not saying its the best tactic, or what i would do.
possibly in his eyes, theres less risk. its his choice to use his previous tactic, or have an open mind and think of the pros and cons of other tactics.
p.s. if youve been around for so much longer than i and know so much more about boards than i. you should also know the fact that jokes and sarcasm, are hard to interpret in text....
You haven't been around here for very long so I will explain this to you. Most of the time these discussions of home defense tactics, procedures, and equipment break down much as this one did to where people are so steadfast and stubborn in this misplaced, or even fool hardy beliefs that they will ignore the prevailing, proven wisdom and rather accept their own misguided beliefs as truth. This is normally culminated by some moron posting:
"I don't need no AR for home defense, all I need to do is rack a shell (usually of birdshot) into my ol' 870 here and all them bad guys will go running!"
Hence my comment.
recon by fire
07-29-09, 15:02
So your response is insults. Very mature.
Ok, I can be mature. Seriously, there are a lot of knowledgable people here and they are very respectful if your posts are serious and respectful, but if you come off spouting stuff that sounds like BS and then say that you are a professional instructor, well then things don't add up. My advice is like what other here have been trying to tell you. Read the threads and remember there are a lot of professionals here that use the AR carbine as tools of the trade. They are a goldmine of information.
thopkins22
07-29-09, 15:02
Why would you try and engage someone trying to steal your TV. You want to kill someone for a TV????? No you don't....
I don't recall anyone advocating that. The only thing I've read people suggesting is that we pick the most effective weapon in our arsenal.
You train SWAT and you don't know about low-light shooting techniques?!?! :confused: You really shouldn't post your BS resume here, you will be called on it. Sit back, read lots and lots and become educated about many things you have no clue about. Decodeddiesel posted the links, follow them.
I gave them instruction on basic marksmanship fundamentals, not CQB. A significant number of Gwinett and Dekalb County officers had issues with certain position shooting techniques and I was aked to help them out. I taught some courses and one of the officers and I became buddies. He got us together in the first place. SWAT is something that comes with a pay raise and is something a few guys just want to experience. As I said I am a long-range marksman and am completely ignorant about 100M and in. Nothing formal, just taught them to form groups while sitting and standing and they'll get lunch and ammo. You help a few guys qualify and they tell their buddies. This guy helped me out for free, he can help you tighten up your groups. These guys have to qualify from position. Most of them have been handed rifles with Aimpoints and have limited ideas about fundamnetal marksmanship. The stuff translates to all aspects of shooting. The limited training I have done with my carbine just resulted in my highest scores at a service rifle competition yet. I think it was trigger control from firing rapid control pairs. I have never paid that detailed attention to trigger control and follow through. I also have never been able to look through an Aimpoint and adjust my shootng position and see instantly how it transalted into changes in POI. That was just by chance. That was fantastic. How head position alters POI...was another area where the Aimpoint gave reinforcement. I know how it alters POI, but I didn't quite realize how much. This can be visualized by co-witness with iron sights.
I'll shutup and absorb, although a few of you should try and keep an open mind. I realize that I am a newb to the CQB stuff. Try and take it easy. It's better to give someone the benefit of the doubt. I did not state I was a professional firearms instructor, but I do give clinics at local gun clubs in marksmanship fundamentals. I have been approached many times by personnel at service rifle matches b/c of my demenor (Emory University Professor) and ability with the 30 caliber rifles. I'm used to teaching and not arrogant enough to think I can't learn from my students. I often do, both at the University and at the range.
Thanks....someone understands.
Why would you try and engage someone trying to steal your TV. You want to kill someone for a TV????? No you don't....
If they come for you than let them get what they deserve. They meant to do you harm so I give them no benefit.
Again....it looks like I either will be happy to shut up and read. It is unfair to only allow for your point of view. How are you expected to learn if only you have the right answers????? I am an academic and a very learned man. My views are not set in stone. I can be convinced by data and facts not rhetoric or dogma. I am only attempting to learn to employ a rifle system in a new envelope and remind the rest of you to keep an open mind.How you defend your own home, is up to you. Asking questions, with a willingness to learn is a good thing. Trying to state that you have a qualified viewpoint on the subject matter and inferring that you instruct anyone, is a bad thing. It is obvious to the professionals here and the very advanced shooters, that you are full of BS on your instruction claims, and that your knowledge of ballistics, weapons, and tactics is severely flawed. The type of comments you make are the same as many people who know enough about firearms to make themselves look like idiots, but not enough about the topic to really understand what your speaking about. Making comments or claims on the internet is one thing, but it scares me to think that you might be offering your bad advice in person, in some type of pseudo-instructional role to others. This is a serious topic, where someone could actually lose a life over bad instruction or misinformation.
I still call BS on the instructor thing in your earlier post also. Maybe you were helping at the range or cleaning up brass, but instructing, nope. And if for some reason you were doing something in an instructional role, shame on whomever let you do so.
I gave them instruction on basic marksmanship fundamentals, not CQB. A significant number of Gwinett and Dekalb County officers had issues with certain position shooting techniques and I was aked to help them out. SWAT is something that comes with a pay raise and is something a few guys just want to experience. As I said I am a long-range marksman and am completely ignorant about 100M and in. I'll shutup and absorb, although a few of you should try and keep and open mind.What is your schooling / qualifications etc, for instructing any firearm topic?
On second thought never mind. I think everyone sees it clearly enough.
Is this the right one ;)?
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_ZtefsH8f-P8/SnChpnYQdQI/AAAAAAAAApA/0-UML7Ru8AY/s800/TOS%20Tough%20Guy.jpg
I learned from this guy. He said the guys on this site are open-minded and true professionals. They'll go easy on you too even if you don't agree with their mantra 100%. ;)
Thanks....someone understands.
Why would you try and engage someone trying to steal your TV. You want to kill someone for a TV????? No you don't....
If they come for you than let them get what they deserve. They meant to do you harm so I give them no benefit.
Again....it looks like I either will be happy to shut up and read. It is unfair to only allow for your point of view. How are you expected to learn if only you have the right answers????? I am an academic and a very learned man. My views are not set in stone. I can be convinced by data and facts not rhetoric or dogma. I am only attempting to learn to employ a rifle system in a new envelope and remind the rest of you to keep an open mind.
We are all here to learn (including me). Our levels of knowledge are all different though.
So using this this thread as an example, I think your entrance into it would have been much better if you would have said: "I like a shotgun for home defense because I train with it the most. I do not believe that a light on a long gun is a good idea, but don't have a lot of training with it so maybe someone can help me understand why it IS a good idea."
C4
We are all here to learn (including me). Our levels of knowledge are all different though.
So using this this thread as an example, I think your entrance into it would have been much better if you would have said: "I like a shotgun for home defense because I train with it the most. I do not believe that a light on a long gun is a good idea, but don't have a lot of training with it so maybe someone can help me understand why it IS a good idea."
C4
Yeah, I can be pretty good at putting my foot in my mouth. You are totally right on that. The herd mentality gets to me sometimes though. Thanks for the advice. Excellent point.
decodeddiesel
07-29-09, 16:35
i understand convos on message boards turn into that...all i was saying is your comment wasnt appropriate for hammonje. now was it?
to me it seems he would do exactly opposite of what you accuse him of.
which seems like a sound tactic. hide in the dark and call the cops. im not saying its the best tactic, or what i would do.
possibly in his eyes, theres less risk. its his choice to use his previous tactic, or have an open mind and think of the pros and cons of other tactics.
p.s. if youve been around for so much longer than i and know so much more about boards than i. you should also know the fact that jokes and sarcasm, are hard to interpret in text....
First of all calm down.
Second, did you actually read what I wrote?
Third, OK if jokes and sarcasm are so hard to interpret how come no one else but yourself seemed to have a problem "interpreting" what I said.
If he wants to sit in a closet with his shotgun and play peek-a-boo with a home intruder I don't give a shit. That wasn't the point of what i wrote.
It wasn't meant as a critique of his techniques, rather as a sarcastic remark given his stubborn adherence to TTPs (Tactics Techniques and Procedures) which have been proven to be antiquated at best, and dangerous to innocents at worst.
ETA: If anything I must say I'm glad for this thread, I have managed to add quite a few more names to my ever growing ignore list.
decodeddiesel
07-29-09, 16:38
which seems like a sound tactic. hide in the dark and call the cops. im not saying its the best tactic, or what i would do. possibly in his eyes, theres less risk. its his choice to use his previous tactic, or have an open mind and think of the pros and cons of other tactics.
Home Defense Concepts and Equipment Thread (in said sub-forum):
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=32094
READ.
I'll be nice about this. Everything that that you said is basically stupid down the core and actually contradicts all common sense. I suggest that you spend some time researching tactics and the proper way to use firearms.
As for someone being stupid for using an AR to defend themselves I am sure that we could say the exact same thing about your selection.
Since you obviously habe ZERO background in tactics I suggest you keep your advice to yourself.
I keep a 12ga shotgun (Rem Police 870; fixed full choke) under the bed for home defense. Using an AR-15 to protect your home is crazy in my opinion. I have a Glock 19 and a 12 ga for that.
Who is coming after you anyway???? Seal Team 6..... You are normally faced with one or two intruders. The nice thing about the shotty is I do not have to be perfectly accurate to make hits. If you have seen any target hit with 00 Buck or #4 Pheasant at 20 ft than you know you do not want any part of those pellets. They mangle 1/4" plywood sheets sending chunks flying. I do not want to over-penetrate and I cannot expect great accuracy from myself being awaken suddenly with adrenaline pounding.
And what is this about a flashlight....oh here I am. Shoot this way please?????? ID targets....I know who is supposed to be in my home and who isn't. If the alarm goes off and you are not my wife whom is sleeping next to me or my dog than your fair game!!!!! Should have picked another home. If you have kids or guests than that seems reasonable, but I just cannot see why one prefers to have a light source...if the perp is not in the beam you can't see him, but he can see you. Just sounds bad. If someone is in my home than I am going to let them come into my sight picture...allow them to make noise, while I remain in the shadows.....
My current home defense gun is a pump shotgun loaded with Federal Tactical 00. I have a TLR-1 mounted on it. I have kids in the house so it is very important for me to positively identify before I pull the trigger. There is enough ambient light in my house at night that I can see movement but may not be able to determine exactly what that movement is. The light doesn't get turned on until there is a potential target to positively identify. The light then gets turned off and I move. If the bad guy shoots toward where the light was I should not be there. If there are multiple bad guys and I illuminate one of them then yes, the other bad guys will know where to shoot. If I don't illuminate and shoot in the darkness then the other bad guys will still know where to shoot due to my muzzle blast.
I have a sling on my shotgun as well.
stevenhyde
07-29-09, 19:43
First of all calm down.
how do you know my mood? in fact im the calmest ive been in a while. i didnt yell or insult or type "read" in massive letters i.e. "you"
Second, did you actually read what I wrote?
yes, i did. i saw an "insult" that didnt pertain to the person you were trying to insult.[/COLOR]
Third, OK if jokes and sarcasm are so hard to interpret how come no one else but yourself seemed to have a problem "interpreting" what I said.
who said i didnt get the "joke"? maybe other people got your "joke" or didnt. maybe those same people didnt call you on your inappropriate comment, like i did.
If he wants to sit in a closet with his shotgun and play peek-a-boo with a home intruder I don't give a shit. That wasn't the point of what i wrote.
no, the point of what you wrote was just to insult him cause his tactics were different then your own. not even a good one insult at that.
It wasn't meant as a critique of his techniques, rather as a sarcastic remark given his stubborn adherence to TTPs (Tactics Techniques and Procedures) which have been proven to be antiquated at best, and dangerous to innocents at worst.
he didnt adhear to his technique he asked for reasons why other techniques should be considered, which you gave him. after you tried to insult him.
ETA: If anything I must say I'm glad for this thread, I have managed to add quite a few more names to my ever growing ignore list.
by the way. i read that thread last week. the one you put in massive bold letters. and i need to calm down? funny.
John_Wayne777
07-29-09, 20:58
Ladies and gentlemen: A light is not an "option" on a long gun intended for home defense.
You have to positively identify a threat before you can put bullets in it.
Period.
Do I really need to drag out the news articles about the guys who have shot their wives or the daughter's boyfriend by shooting at shadowy figures in the dark?
CaptainDooley
07-29-09, 21:10
Why would you try and engage someone trying to steal your TV. You want to kill someone for a TV????? No you don't....
If he broke into my house while I and my family are home, he clearly has some plan to deal with us. Ergo, my life and the lives of my family are threatened and I am going to do what I have to do to stop the threat.
ETA: I also have a light and will positively identify the target prior to firing... However, if my 2 year old daughter has a boyfriend old enough to lift my TV, I'll probably shoot him anyway. [JOKE!]
John_Wayne777
07-29-09, 21:13
I am an academic and a very learned man.
...and if someone came along holding to a very basic falsehood that stands in stark contrast to decades of research in your field, you'd likely tell them flat out that they are wrong.
Employing a firearm for serious social purposes is a field of knowledge as surely as physics, electrical engineering, or cardiology.
On this site there are people with yellow names who hold the title of Subject Matter Expert. They have that title because they have considerable knowledge and experience in this area. Every one of them will tell you that a white light on a long gun intended for serious social purposes is not an option. It's a necessity.
My views are not set in stone. I can be convinced by data and facts not rhetoric or dogma.
Again, I remind you of your academic discipline. If somebody walked in off the street with ideas that are absolutely 100% disproven by decades of research, when you tell them that they are wrong are you spewing dogma? Is it merely rhetoric to tell someone who argues that 2 + 2 = 93 that they are way off?
I am only attempting to learn to employ a rifle system in a new envelope and remind the rest of you to keep an open mind.
If you're here to learn, that's great! You're in the right place.
The first thing you have to do, however, is know what you don't know. As a learned man you realize the importance of understanding the limitations of your knowledge. I, for instance, know next to nothing about brain surgery, so I rarely offer medical advice on the topic or make definitive statements on the matter. I don't tell people with more experience treating head injuries than me to drop the rhetoric and dogma. I'm not really in a position to understand what is rhetoric or dogma because in that topic I'm way over my head.
...see where I'm going with this? ;)
As a tool for stopping the hostile actions of an attacker, birdshot sucks. There are at least two decades of wound ballistics research conducted by lots of very smart people with lots of letters behind their name and lots of very white lab coats behind that statement.
Lights are a necessity on long guns intended for serious social purposes. There are decades of combat experience, lawsuits, investigations, trial and error, and training behind that statement.
If he broke into my house while I and my family are home, he clearly has some plan to deal with us. Ergo, my life and the lives of my family are threatened and I am going to do what I have to do to stop the threat.
Be sure that your state has a castle doctrine law (I think Texas does), otherwise you are not presumptively justified in shooting an intruder just for breaking and entering.
CaptainDooley
07-29-09, 21:26
Be sure that your state has a castle doctrine law, otherwise you are not presumptively justified in shooting an intruder just for breaking and entering.
I have.
"We're from Texas, things are different here."
Use of deadly force is justified for things such as "Criminal Mischief After Dark"...
I hate to say it, but if there's someone in my house and they aren't there to just steal my DVD's, I could really care less what the courts say at that point. I'm sure it'll hit me like a ton of bricks afterwords, but protecting my wife will probably override any worries about blood on the carpet or legal fees. At least I'll be alive to pay those fees if necessary. Better than dying on the floor as he does un-Godly things to my wife. Nice thing about Wyoming is, if they're in your home, it's your word against theirs... so shoot true and fast if they're in there for no good.
I have.
"We're from Texas, things are different here."
Use of deadly force is justified for things such as "Criminal Mischief After Dark"...
Just because you CAN do a thing does not always mean that you SHOULD do a thing. Good luck in TX.
CaptainDooley
07-29-09, 21:55
Just because you CAN do a thing does not always mean that you SHOULD do a thing. Good luck in TX.
Quite right. I CAN shoot some one in my house who is not authorized to be there and I SHOULD shoot them to protect my wife and family. The great thing is that my state recognizes that I SHOULD be able to respond this way. I don't WANT to take a life, but if someone is in my house without my permission while I am home I SHOULD shoot him to protect the ones I love. Clear enough for ya?
if someone is in my house without my permission while I am home I SHOULD shoot him to protect the ones I love. Clear enough for ya?
Nope.
CaptainDooley
07-29-09, 22:33
Nope.
Thank God I don't live with you.
thopkins22
07-29-09, 22:51
I agree with DarrinD. What if they're visibly scared, go "oh shit, don't shoot!" and start to run away? Should you shoot them then?
What if they put their hands up and back away? Scream and run into a wall? Hear you coming and start to climb back out the window? What if it's just your neighbor who had too much to drink and stumbled in the wrong door?
CaptainDooley
07-29-09, 22:56
The original remark was about someone in your house robbing you - the drunk neighbor doesn't factor in. Furthermore, in my house I am not required to give notice - the only notice they will have is my light illuminating them. If in the time it takes me to ID them as an unknown and therefore a target they surrender then I don't fire. However, I again state that my assumption is that anyone that would break in while the family is clearly home already has a plan for me and I will react accordingly. I cannot risk the lives and safety of my loved ones to talk the intruder in my home home down. My family is more important than that individual or individuals. End of story. I have a right to my home and my domain and am legally allowed to use deadly force to protect property only, if that were my wish. I only wish to protect my family and in my mind that demands a certain ferocity and violence of action to keep intruders from having an opportunity to gain the upper hand.
thopkins22
07-29-09, 22:58
Understood. I read your comments to mean that anyone under any circumstances in your home without your explicit permission was getting shot.
CaptainDooley
07-29-09, 23:01
Sorry about the confusion - I'm not psychotic, just fiercely protective. I was witness to a shooting at the place I work while loading my infant (at the time) daughter and wife into the car. Concealed carry had never even been a thought in my head before then - now I don't do anything without a firearm because I will never be that close to being a victim again.
Thomas M-4
07-29-09, 23:08
I agree with DarrinD. What if they're visibly scared, go "oh shit, don't shoot!" and start to run away? Should you shoot them then?
What if they put their hands up and back away? Scream and run into a wall? Hear you coming and start to climb back out the window? What if it's just your neighbor who had too much to drink and stumbled in the wrong door?
Thinking that way is taking chances. When it comes to my house and family I am not taking chances sorry not going to happen. In AL you have the right to deal with a intruder with any means you have at your disposal.
If I have a clearly identified intruder in my house I am shooting to kill even if he is hell bent running to get out of the house. Thinking like that is taking chances I can not and will not take a chance with my loved ones.
In AL you have the right to deal with a intruder with any means you have at your disposal.
If I have a clearly identified intruder in my house I am shooting to kill even if he is hell bent running to get out of the house. Thinking like that is taking chances I can not and will not take a chance with my loved ones.
The two recent posts advocating shooting an identified intruder imply that they would basically attempt to clear their home to get to that "bump in the night." I wonder if you have had any instruction in, or researched, creating a safe room in the house for the entire family to hunker down in if an intruder breaks in. You likely have better chances of not getting you or family shot by planning out a safe room defensive strategy than one man room clearing and leaving your family alone. . . it's just not safe. What if the intruder has partner that you don't know the location of? My experience with local PD's is that LEO's, with some exceptions, won't do room clearing without at least two men, and the preferred minimum is 4+.
Thomas M-4
07-29-09, 23:41
The two recent posts advocating shooting an identified intruder imply that they would basically attempt to clear their home to get to that "bump in the night." I wonder if you have had any instruction in, or researched, creating a safe room in the house for the entire family to hunker down in if an intruder breaks in. You likely have better chances of not getting you or family shot by planning out a safe room defensive strategy than one man room clearing and leaving your family alone. . . it's just not safe. What if the intruder has partner that you don't know the location of? My experience with local PD's is that LEO's, with some exceptions, won't do room clearing without at least two men, and the preferred minimum is 4+.
I have had to deal with a home invasion before. Its not always a bump in the night it could be some one hiding next to a door at 3:00pm waiting for some one to open it and they put a gun to a member of your family has they force there way in. A safe room is not going to do you a bit of good. Sorry some times you just have to grit it and deal with it the fastest most efficient means possible.
CaptainDooley
07-29-09, 23:44
I agree with that entirely - if I could hunker down with the family I would. However, my small house has seperated bedrooms and in order to secure my children I have to walk across the large common area that is the kitchen, dining room, and living room. Luckily there's nowhere to hide while I go out after the children.
Again, I agree that a safe room is the best policy. If I lived in a house with all the bedrooms together, that's exactly what I would do.
I have had to deal with a home invasion before. Its not always a bump in the night it could be some one hiding next to a door at 3:00pm waiting for some one to open it and they put a gun to a member of your family has they force there way in. A safe room is not going to do you a bit of good. Sorry some times you just have to grit it and deal with it the fastest most efficient means possible.
And for you that includes a burglar running OUT of your house. For me it does not include shooting someone in the back. . . . but again that's just me.
Why would you try and engage someone trying to steal your TV. You want to kill someone for a TV????? No you don't....
In all seriousness, I mean this, if anyone tries to take my TV I will dump 30 rounds in them before they can blink.
Cameron
Thomas M-4
07-30-09, 00:01
And for you that includes a burglar running OUT of your house. For me it does not include shooting someone in the back. . . . but again that's just me.
When the event takes 3 seconds from start to finish then you can tell me what you would do.
I would never advocate shooting somebody that was no longer a threat, but one thing to consider: If you run somebody out of your house, they may just have bitter feelings about it and come back with a bigger stick; get their vengeance. These people are irrational and insane. Be in a heightened state of awareness if this ever happens. Oftentimes, criminals have an odd obsession that drives them to try to push things to the limit--even after being chased off, they want to see if they can take it another step.
I've loaded and fired a lot of .224 bullets in my previous varmint rifle hobby years ago. .22 hornet, .223, 22-250. .220 Swift, .22 PPC.
In my experience, if the round is 50 grains or less, and a not fully jacketed or solid type of bullet, it's going to come apart pretty quickly. Going behind a standard plywood backstop and looking for them showed me just going through that would only leave fragments. I've had 40 grain noslers come apart at the end of the barrel on the Swift and had the same bullet explode birds out of a Hornet. Most of them would not go completely through a 4X4.
A light hollow point or ballistic tip kinda bullet would be a good choice for HD. I'm using a Remington 50 grain varmint cartridge in my AR for HD.
I won't use handloads in my AR, so that limits the choices, but there's still plenty out there to choose from.
My home defence situation is pretty easy. I get up outta bed and my family is behind me. If I'm downstairs, they're above me. The outside of the house is brick, all of the neighbors houses are brick. That doesn't lessen any of the responsibilities or burdens of any bad situation, it just gives me a little mental room....
My knowledge is old, so if I'm bum doping folks, please tell me.
Thanks.
This has been mentioned many times in all of these hypothetical situations. If you cannot articluate why did what you did especially shooting somone leaving your house be prepared for the worst.
This has been mentioned many times in all of these hypothetical situations. If you cannot articluate why did what you did especially shooting somone leaving your house be prepared for the worst.
+1...There is no substitute for mental preparedness. These things need to be thought-out time and time again ahead of time.
Thomas M-4
07-30-09, 01:02
I would never advocate shooting somebody that was no longer a threat, but one thing to consider: If you run somebody out of your house, they may just have bitter feelings about it and come back with a bigger stick; get their vengeance. These people are irrational and insane. Be in a heightened state of awareness if this ever happens. Oftentimes, criminals have an odd obsession that drives them to try to push things to the limit--even after being chased off, they want to see if they can take it another step.
That reminds me what my drill sergeant would tell us. IF YOU LOOK LIKE FOOD YOU WILL BE EATEN .
All of these defense scenarios always start the same way A bump in the night :rolleyes: They all do not happen that way sorry to say. That is the good scenario what about the bad? What if you just laid down to take a mid day nap and you hear a family member whispering please dont kill me! What would you do then.
When the event takes 3 seconds from start to finish then you can tell me what you would do.
Respectfully, when you give more facts about this new hypothetical 3 seconds "event" I can tell anyone who cares approximately what I would do. Don't care? Won't hurt my feelings. Your above quote now narrows the situation from the one where you admitted that you would shoot an intruder that you knew was leaving your house. Not the same things at all. I would agree that a dynamic threat requires a swift and brutal response. I simply have a different definition of what threat constitutes; if that rings wimpy in your ears then by all means call me a wimp. As for the 3 seconds duration, I've interviewed a handful of LEO's that have been involved in shootings where they had to shoot-don't shoot in a lot less than that. Not even enough time to consciously weigh all the variables we are crapping about back and forth.
Thomas M-4
07-30-09, 01:27
Respectfully, when you give more facts about this new hypothetical 3 seconds "event" I can tell anyone who cares approximately what I would do. Don't care? Won't hurt my feelings. Your above quote now narrows the situation from the one where you admitted that you would shoot an intruder that you knew was leaving your house. Not the same things at all. I would agree that a dynamic threat requires a swift and brutal response. I simply have a different definition of what threat constitutes; if that rings wimpy in your ears then by all means call me a wimp. As for the 3 seconds duration, I've interviewed a handful of LEO's that have been involved in shootings where they had to shoot-don't shoot in a lot less than that. Not even enough time to consciously weigh all the variables we are crapping about back and forth.
I have told the story verbally many times but I have never tried to put it down to words. And I admit that I suck at righting I am worried that I would not get every detail down in a ledge able manner and in a event like I had it would be very important to get every detail down or it could be miss understood you have to understand a lot of things happened in a short amount of time.And I really suck at writing. If there is a literary goo-roo out there that would like to look over the story one day and check to make sure I put it down correctly then yes I would probably do it.
And I never called you a wimp I only said that some time's you get a dumptruck load of sh$t and you have to deal with it. It can not always be dealt with sitting in a safe room.
I only said that some time's you get a dumptruck load of sh$t and you have to deal with it. It can not always be dealt with sitting in a safe room.
I agree with that statement fully. We all must be as prepared as well as possible for split second, dynamic use of force scenarios.
you say
Also I hold no illusions about my, or anyone's, accuracy of aim in the dark, in a desperate, do or die shootout.
in a desperate do or die shoot out ? are you really going to be that quick with your reloading and do you really have a pocket full of shells ?
in the wake up at 3 am ? I am going to be off guard disoriented etc.. I would much rather grab a AR with ready mag and have 60 rounds of TAP at my beck and call light is already on it etc..
yet it seems you think you can shoot and reload a DB shotgun close to as quick as you can pull a trigger on a semi auto ? or even close ?
holding extra shells and a light ?
recently in Phoenix a few home invasions !
so sadly it seems the bad guys now here at least ? tend to use AR type guns dress as police ! and wear body armor !!
An unidentified number of suspects entered the home, near 75th and Peoria avenues, just after 3 a.m., according to Peoria police spokesman Jay Davies.
The armed suspects impersonated police officers, Davies said.
When searching the truck later, police found an AR-15 rifle, M-4 rifle, a pistol-grip shotgun and a handgun. They were trying to determine which items were stolen and which may have been used in the home invasion.
The prospect of $60,000 in jewelry and cash motivated five men who burst into a Gilbert home, claiming to be police and armed with assault rifles and bullet-proof vests.
The intruders were armed with handguns and an AR-15 rifle as they "ran into the residence yelling 'Police!'" the rapper told police. One suspect had an oval badge hanging from his neck on a chain.
like the old saying of dont bring a knife to a gun fight !
dont bring a fudd double barrel to a tactical fight either !!
I would much rather face off with better or the best gear I can get and TRAINING to back myself up
over bird shot and a double barrel !
heck next I am going to hear well racking a shotgun will scare em away !!! :)
Jay Cunningham
07-30-09, 04:24
Having a light on the weapon, and having a large ammo supply (and possibly even a spare mag) on the weapon are no-brainers for a bump-in-the-night scenario. Leave that Aimpoint switched on as well.
I keep a pistol on me and an M4 with light and Aimpoint by the bed. But the one thing I am NOT gonna do is tell the internet my Rules of Engagement.
Perhaps some of you should consider what you put online, eh?
I keep a pistol on me and an M4 with light and Aimpoint by the bed. But the one thing I am NOT gonna do is tell the internet my Rules of Engagement.
Perhaps some of you should consider what you put online, eh?
Why? The internet isn't going to break into your home and take your TV. If people are getting worried about what they put on a forum from a legal standpoing, perhaps they should rethink what they are typing. I agree that people shouldn't put stuff like "I'd blast 'em for blastings sake" or anything that makes you sound blood thirsty as a lawyer would probably put that against you, but Rules of Engagement? Are you afraid someone is going to read up on you and then know exactly what you are going to do? I'm not trying to be a jerk here, I'm just curious what it is you are afraid of.
Is it the legal aspect or that people might know what you'd do? I can assure you that yes, it's smart to limit what you say to make you look like a whacko, but no... none of us are important enough for some dirt bag to waste their time tracking us down specifically to rob our homes. They'll just pick the closest, easiest, available target.
John_Wayne777
07-30-09, 08:57
Are you afraid someone is going to read up on you and then know exactly what you are going to do?
Anything you say on the internet will be preserved forever, and can and will be used against you by assclowns in your personal life or in the legal system if they can figure out that you're the person who made the statements.
Anything you say on the internet can and will be taken out of context and twisted into knots to serve the interests of whoever has it out for you. Ex wives can do it. Soon to be ex wives can do it. Colleagues who have a grudge against you can send it to your boss. Divorce lawyers can do it. PTA members at your kid's school can do it.
Etcetera.
It would be wise to keep this in mind when deciding what to post on the internet.
Oh, I agree JW, and I posted to that effect, but really, if people are afraid of something being used against them, they probably have a reason for that being the case.
I hate to say it, but if there's someone in my house and they aren't there to just steal my DVD's, I could really care less what the courts say at that point. I'm sure it'll hit me like a ton of bricks afterwords, but protecting my wife will probably override any worries about blood on the carpet or legal fees. At least I'll be alive to pay those fees if necessary. Better than dying on the floor as he does un-Godly things to my wife. Nice thing about Wyoming is, if they're in your home, it's your word against theirs... so shoot true and fast if they're in there for no good.
Ken Hackathorn tells it this way; If you are allowed to take ANYTHING from my house, it is because I have GIVEN it to you. ;)
C4
I've been involved in a "home invasion". my first indication that anyone was in my home was when I woke up with a man's hands around my throat. from my one experience, I can say that almost nothing occurred as I had envisioned or planned for.
don't plan on being able to use a "safe" room, but don't toss out the concept entirely either. if I could've, I would've...
Why? The internet isn't going to break into your home and take your TV. If people are getting worried about what they put on a forum from a legal standpoing, perhaps they should rethink what they are typing. I agree that people shouldn't put stuff like "I'd blast 'em for blastings sake" or anything that makes you sound blood thirsty as a lawyer would probably put that against you, but Rules of Engagement? Are you afraid someone is going to read up on you and then know exactly what you are going to do? I'm not trying to be a jerk here, I'm just curious what it is you are afraid of.
Is it the legal aspect or that people might know what you'd do? I can assure you that yes, it's smart to limit what you say to make you look like a whacko, but no... none of us are important enough for some dirt bag to waste their time tracking us down specifically to rob our homes. They'll just pick the closest, easiest, available target.
Imagine everything you put in print on the internet in size 42 font on a poster for the Jury to ponder, that's all.:D
RyanB,
So it's from the legal standpoint. I understand. Was it something I said specifically or in general? As I believe I regulate what I say on forums for the most part, but hey, I can learn something new every day.
Thomas M-4
07-30-09, 11:06
Anything you say on the internet will be preserved forever, and can and will be used against you by assclowns in your personal life or in the legal system if they can figure out that you're the person who made the statements.
Anything you say on the internet can and will be taken out of context and twisted into knots to serve the interests of whoever has it out for you. Ex wives can do it. Soon to be ex wives can do it. Colleagues who have a grudge against you can send it to your boss. Divorce lawyers can do it. PTA members at your kid's school can do it.
Etcetera.
It would be wise to keep this in mind when deciding what to post on the internet.
John_Wayne777 Once again the voice of reason and better judgment .
I will just keep my pie hole shut on my situation for better judgment can only hope that I have not spoken to much already to put my self in a bad situation.
CaptainDooley
07-30-09, 11:43
John_Wayne777 Once again the voice of reason and better judgment .
I will just keep my pie hole shut on my situation for better judgment can only hope that I have not spoken to much already to put my self in a bad situation.
Don't worry... I looked up Thomas M-4 in the Alabama phone directory and didn't find anything... now my screen name on the other hand...
No I keep one in the chamber on safe. I am not going to give up my concealment. Let them walk into my sight picture....
I would not mind if someone gave a rational explanation for the use of a flashlight though....my views are not etched in stone. I am not too full of it to realize I am ignorant about a lot of things.
Simple really... Instead of insulting you (don't know why many feel the need to do that rather than point out why they feel differently), I will give you a few thoughts on my reasoning.
just because I have a light on my weapon doesn't mean I turn it on from the moment I I pick up said weapon.
If I peak out into a dark area and I can hear movement, but it to dark to see anything a quick flip of the switch can illuminate the intruder (maybe even blinding and disorient then momentarily) so I can locate and ID him. There's nothing wrong with using a light, as long as you use it right.
Nothing wrong with using a shotgun for HD. Some of us rather use a different tool.
It doesn't much more skill, talent or ability ti aim an AR at some one than a shotgun. Either way I have to aim at a relativity close target. With the shotgun there is a chance that some of the pellets will not hit the target and hit something else. I really rather not have to deal with the recoil of a shotgun in the middle of the night, I'm sure my accuracy will be just fine from my AR.
There was a recent home invasion in my state involving 6 to 7 men, that had actually practiced the assault. In the process of robing the home they killed the husband and wife that had adopted numerous disabled children. That event helped me to determine that one of my ARs will be setup for HD. There is nothing wrong with being prepared for the possibility of multiple assailants. Better to have it and not need it than the need it and not have it.
At any rate just some quick thoughts.
Regards,
Rojas
It's a long thread but I'll kick in my 2 cents. I keep a Benelli M1 Super 90 in a gun locker next to my bed and a 45 in my night stand. Like the OP I like my neighbors so their safety is important to me. Thankfully I live in a single family home and not an apartment. Anyway I agree that birdshot is a totally unreliable stopper. My choice is #4 buck for the first two rounds followed by five 00 buck in the magazine and a whole bandoleer of 50 more rounds of 00 buck and 5 slugs that's on a hook attached to the gun locker. I don't have kids so the locker is unlocked before bed.
The reason for #4 buck is that at indoor distances it's going to hit in one tight bunch and discourage even the legendary 6'6" 320lb drugged out gang banger. A double tap CM should be even more discouraging. The reason that the first two are #4 is simple physics. At 20' #4 buck is going to lose a chunk of energy going through a layer or two of drywall but will retain enough energy to damage anyone right next to the wall. But add in insulation and the layer of stucco on my outer wall and the neighbor's stucco, insulation, and drywall and the odds of a collateral fatality drop way down.
I'm realist enough to understand that if two rounds of #4 haven't convinced said late great legendary bad guy's friends to leave then all bets are off and I'll be double tapping with 00 buck. And realistically with a bandoleer of spares and tactical reloads you don't run dry. I love my rifles but they are for threats greater than 15yds away and my house ain't all that big.
This has certainly gone way past my question about AR's and overpenetration and alternative weapons.
I want to thank all the posters who responded with maturity and with real information based on experience and training.
RyanB,
So it's from the legal standpoint. I understand. Was it something I said specifically or in general? As I believe I regulate what I say on forums for the most part, but hey, I can learn something new every day.
In general, and in particular to one poster. I wouldn't want to have those things come up if I did shoot an intruder. Soccer moms might not understand.
I've been bad about regulating what I say on forums at times, so I try to pay attention to what I say.:D
... It appears that after spending a fair amount of cash for a good AR, I am back to using my Grandfather's double barrel shotgun filled with birdshot.
This gun has provided security for a variety of my families for nearly a hundred years.
Is my thinking here wrong?
How so ?
I know where you are coming from. I've been a bird hunter all my life. You will find that most people on the internet that discount bird shot for home defense, they usually lack much experience in actually using bird shot. They think that it's all like the low base #8 dove and quail loads. I've seen some actually use ballistic data from such loads(to argue their point). Truth is there is large bird shot that is not much smaller than #4 buckshot. If I were going to use bird shot, I would use atleast lead BB shot and probably a 3" magnum. Do not use steel shot. Also don't discount the AR carbine, it maybe a better choice than a shotgun.
I have seen scene photos and autopsy photos of persons shot with #8 and #6 low-brass 12 gauge shotshells from a distance of about 5 feet. Both were unconscious within seconds and dead right there. Both suffered large holes in the torso and one had a traumatic amputation of the lower arm.
Even so, my go to closet gun is a 12 gauge pump with 00 low-recoil buckshot. There have also been accounts of people shot with birdshot that didn't die right away. (The ARs are locked up in the safe. ).
I've been involved in a "home invasion". my first indication that anyone was in my home was when I woke up with a man's hands around my throat. from my one experience, I can say that almost nothing occurred as I had envisioned or planned for.
don't plan on being able to use a "safe" room, but don't toss out the concept entirely either. if I could've, I would've...
have to ask ? what happened ? more story maybe ?
at least you lived ! since you are here glad about that
I do agree things will never be as we want them !
chances are a home invasion will happen to me when I am in the farthest end of the house and my kids are in the front room ! I will be on the toilet after eating bad mexican dinner and have my pants around my ankles
in that scenario the bad guys have the drop on me and have my kids ! situation changes ! and also maybe in some ways why I would much rather NOT have a shotgun
Who is coming after you anyway???? Seal Team 6..... You are normally faced with one or two intruders. The nice thing about the shotty is I do not have to be perfectly accurate to make hits. If you have seen any target hit with 00 Buck or #4 Pheasant at 20 ft than you know you do not want any part of those pellets.
just to say read my post a few back ! many home invasions here and elsewhere the trend is to have 4-6 people now in body armor ! here last few are yelling police and wearing tactical gear when they come bursting in !
the I dont have to aim thing of a shotgun in a house ? well I think that has been answered before :)
so I would again rather have something that can go through body armor any day over something that wont !
also I dont want to face off against 4-6 people but would rather have the firepower that can have a chance
breaking into a house or burglar might be the one or two people but home invasions are tending to become a whole dif thing and these days they want you home ! so they can tie you up and get your pin numbers drain your accounts while you are home etc..
the home invasion mentality is to confront you while a burglar is hoping not to
I've been involved in a "home invasion". my first indication that anyone was in my home was when I woke up with a man's hands around my throat. from my one experience, I can say that almost nothing occurred as I had envisioned or planned for.
don't plan on being able to use a "safe" room, but don't toss out the concept entirely either. if I could've, I would've...
I always thought that would be a very likely scenario in a home invasion. I remember mentioning that specifically in a another thread here. At any rate, IMO a pistol a neccessity for HD. Not saying it is a better weapon than a rifle, but if you wake up to being asssaulted in your bed the pistol is what I'd want.
In regards to HD shootings, not shooting someone doesn't make you less of a man. Discretion is the better part of valor type thing. Point is just because you are legally justified shooting someone doesn't neccessarily mean its the best course of action.
This is a very interesting thread...
I recently purchased my first piece of property, a Condo. [NJ home prices are crazy] I too would worry about discharging the AR at a burgler and hitting a person in the unit next to me. I am seperated from one unit by a concrete block wall, but on the other side is just an insulated wood stud partition. CLearly a piece of cake for an AR.
Now I admit that the chances of a burglary in my neck of the woods are about as good as me winning the lottery, but I still like the idea of being able to defend myself and protect what little I have if the need arises.
Also, in the Peoples Republic of New Jersey, shooting an intruder is not justified in all cases, its a real pain in the ass. The burgler has more rights that the home owner.
Either way, I know that when I wake up to go to work, I am usualy not fully awake untill about 30 minutes into the work day. If I get woken up in the middle of the night by someone kicking in my door, I doubt I will be able to focus well enough to make a good shot.
I think in my case, a good laser would be the best way to go. See the red/green dot on someone you don't know, pull the trigger. Ill worry about overpenetration once I am safe and the intruder is no longer a threat to me or my GF. Also, just thinking about it, a lot of people would poop themselves at the sight of an AR pointed in their face and a laser designator on their chest. They would most likely turn and runrather than come at me, this would prevent a deadly confrontation all together and save me a lot of legal fees and a night in jail.
What are some recomendations on a good laser?
I always thought that would be a very likely scenario in a home invasion. I remember mentioning that specifically in a another thread here. At any rate, IMO a pistol a neccessity for HD. Not saying it is a better weapon than a rifle, but if you wake up to being asssaulted in your bed the pistol is what I'd want.
In regards to HD shootings, not shooting someone doesn't make you less of a man. Discretion is the better part of valor type thing. Point is just because you are legally justified shooting someone doesn't neccessarily mean its the best course of action.
in my case, I was asleep in my girfriend's (now wife) apartment and someone came in through a locked door with a pass key. police speculate it was maintenance or a contractor. no alarm system and her little fluffy dog never made a wimper.
anyway, I woke up with his hands over my mouth and around my throat and it was on like donkey kong. I had no time to retrieve the snubbie from my pants pocket by the side of the bed as I was fighting for what I literally thought was my life.
I took a pretty good beating but I must have been able to convince him that it wasn't worth his while and he left. luckily, he didn't appear to have a weapon (or I kept him too busy to use it) because if he did, I would have been toast.
looking back, I made several mistakes but I also learned a few lessons. notice I said I didn't have time to get my snub. the all-important thing in a situation like this is time. If I had an alarm to warn me, or the bedroom door locked, or I had my gun close at hand, it probably would have come out different.
someone once said, a pistol is good for fighting your way to a long gun. obviously, I'd rather defend myself with a rifle than a pistol but having a pistol at hand can give you the time to set things right.
and for the record, if I could have gotten to my gun, there's no doubt in my mind that I would have used it...
Let not lose sight of one fact. Just because one decides to have a rifle (AR) as a primary home defense weapon:
A. DOES NOT mean you can't have a pistol close in case things are so start so
close up that reaching for you rifle is not an option.
B. Being in relatively good shape and having some knowledge in the area of
unarmed self defense is a good thing.
Let not lose sight of one fact. Just because one decides to have a rifle (AR) as a primary home defense weapon:
A. DOES NOT mean you can't have a pistol close in case things are so start so
close up that reaching for you rifle is not an option.
B. Being in relatively good shape and having some knowledge in the area of
unarmed self defense is a good thing.
yep. I may get flamed for this but I have pistols at several places throughout my house for home defense. I believe it was Clint Smith who claims a pistol is great for fighting your way to your long gun, and I would choose one of those over a pistol every time if I could. I keep one on every floor of my house.
however, I practice the pistol primarily for the purpose of self-defense at common in-the-house distances and would consider myself pretty well armed if that's all I could get.
now, I've always been in pretty good shape, until lately that is, but in the encounter I described,I would describe my unarmed self defense style as pure terror-driven adrenaline-frenzy. I know it wasn't pretty but it worked for me...
CaptainDooley
08-05-09, 19:28
yep. I may get flamed for this but I have pistols at several places throughout my house for home defense.
I won't flame you - I just don't understand why you wouldn't buy a holster and just carry in your house. If I'm awake, I'm carrying. I lounge on my couch to watch TV, I get down in the floor and rough house with my two year old, I work on video cameras - a good holster means the gun all but disappears into your subconscious.
Medicine Calf
08-05-09, 19:50
ra2bach,
You did good.
I won't flame you - I just don't understand why you wouldn't buy a holster and just carry in your house. If I'm awake, I'm carrying. I lounge on my couch to watch TV, I get down in the floor and rough house with my two year old, I work on video cameras - a good holster means the gun all but disappears into your subconscious.
well I DO have my BUG with me everywhere. as I told my neighbor once, "the ONLY place I don't have my gun on me is in the shower. and even then it's close by".
but a full size handgun? I don't know. I do sometimes... but I've got three kids - middle school through high school boys and they are very interested in guns. they are VERY gun savvy and safety trained, but I just don't like to be constantly dealing with it. I feel that too much exposure can allow you to get lax. plus, it tears up the sofa, etc...
I figure now I got a sophisticated security system, external lighting, and a nervous pup, I'll have a little warning if the bad guys come to call. in my house I'm nowhere more than a few steps from a gun if I need it.
ra2bach,
You did good.
thanks bro. but i can tell you I'm no bad-ass ninja operator type. I just found myself waking up in abject horror and I suppose it gave me a double-shot of that grandmaw-lifts-the-Volkswagen-off-the-kid type of strength for as long as I needed it.
looking back, I (we) made every stupid mistake in the book and lived to tell the tale. did I mention that my future wife was sitting up in bed right next to me watching the whole thing while I was fighting with this guy and she never did anything to help me? she never made so much as a sound. and then, when the guy withdrew and ran out of the apartment, and I'm left standing there bleeding and blinking my eyes, she breaks out into hysterics...
Thomas M-4
08-05-09, 20:31
yep. I may get flamed for this but I have pistols at several places throughout my house for home defense. I believe it was Clint Smith who claims a pistol is great for fighting your way to your long gun, and I would choose one of those over a pistol every time if I could. I keep one on every floor of my house.
however, I practice the pistol primarily for the purpose of self-defense at common in-the-house distances and would consider myself pretty well armed if that's all I could get.
now, I've always been in pretty good shape, until lately that is, but in the encounter I described,I would describe my unarmed self defense style as pure terror-driven adrenaline-frenzy. I know it wasn't pretty but it worked for me...
ra2bach glad you were able to fight off your attacker. And you understand that an attacker is not going to give you any warning if they have anything to do about it.
in my case, I was asleep in my girfriend's (now wife) apartment and someone came in through a locked door with a pass key. police speculate it was maintenance or a contractor. no alarm system and her little fluffy dog never made a wimper.
anyway, I woke up with his hands over my mouth and around my throat and it was on like donkey kong. I had no time to retrieve the snubbie from my pants pocket by the side of the bed as I was fighting for what I literally thought was my life.
I took a pretty good beating but I must have been able to convince him that it wasn't worth his while and he left. luckily, he didn't appear to have a weapon (or I kept him too busy to use it) because if he did, I would have been toast.
looking back, I made several mistakes but I also learned a few lessons. notice I said I didn't have time to get my snub. the all-important thing in a situation like this is time. If I had an alarm to warn me, or the bedroom door locked, or I had my gun close at hand, it probably would have come out different.
someone once said, a pistol is good for fighting your way to a long gun. obviously, I'd rather defend myself with a rifle than a pistol but having a pistol at hand can give you the time to set things right.
and for the record, if I could have gotten to my gun, there's no doubt in my mind that I would have used it...
Im glad you and your gf/wife got out of the situation, you did great. You were at a tremendous disadvantage,(sleeping at someone elses home) and even if you were beat up, you still won.
Let not lose sight of one fact. Just because one decides to have a rifle (AR) as a primary home defense weapon:
A. DOES NOT mean you can't have a pistol close in case things are so start so
close up that reaching for you rifle is not an option.
B. Being in relatively good shape and having some knowledge in the area of
unarmed self defense is a good thing.
Agreed, anyone who has been in armed encounter would agree, that you don't want to comprimise on weapondry.
My point about the handgun nearby the bed was merely this...I spend approx. 1/3 of my time in bed. I tend to think that crimes of this type most often occur at night, although I don't have a stat to back it. I tend to plan for the most likely scenario first.
I agree with the concept of carrying at home, something about leaving weapons around the house doesn't sit well with me. I have a buddy who was watching TV, all of a sudden a crimnal running from the police came crashing through the sliding glass door, ran bleeding through the house and out the front door. There was no time to retrieve a firearm, just an example in making the point, these things happen fast and will catch you by surprise.
Mr.Goodtimes
08-05-09, 21:26
thanks bro. but i can tell you I'm no bad-ass ninja operator type. I just found myself waking up in abject horror and I suppose it gave me a double-shot of that grandmaw-lifts-the-Volkswagen-off-the-kid type of strength for as long as I needed it.
looking back, I (we) made every stupid mistake in the book and lived to tell the tale. did I mention that my future wife was sitting up in bed right next to me watching the whole thing while I was fighting with this guy and she never did anything to help me? she never made so much as a sound. and then, when the guy withdrew and ran out of the apartment, and I'm left standing there bleeding and blinking my eyes, she breaks out into hysterics...
was she in shock or do you think mabey she hired that guy to come kill you? mabey thats why the dog didnt bark, the dude had a key, and she just sat there and watched?
seems like she would have called 911?
RetreatHell
08-06-09, 01:59
was she in shock or do you think mabey she hired that guy to come kill you? mabey thats why the dog didnt bark, the dude had a key, and she just sat there and watched?
seems like she would have called 911?
Of course she was in shock. That shit can, and frequently does, happen in a wide variety of violent scenarios such as this one.
AN EXAMPLE:
A good friend of mine, a 2nd Lieutenant and Platoon Commander in the Army, was shot in the neck in Iraq by a shitbag Iraqi **** with a Dragonov sniper rifle, while standing on top of a rooftop checking on his men who were up there pulling security/watch. He was instantly and completely paralyzed from the mid-chest down and dropped like a... well, like a ****ing guy who just got shot in the neck!
Anyhow, he's lying there on the roof bleeding like crazy, and it took 20-30 seconds for his men to even notice that he'd been hit, and he was only a few yards away from them. They just heard a gun shot and were trying to figure out where it came from so they could kill the guy who fired the shot.
My friend was able to mumble for help, and BTW he also remained calm as hell as this was happening. When one of his Privates finally heard him and turned around, he literally sat there on his ass and stared at his bleeding LT as he lay there motionless on the ground, his hand over the gun shot wound in his neck trying to slow his own bleeding. My friend said that his Pvt stared at him for a whole minute, just completely frozen with fear, anxiety, panic, etc..
My friend, still calm as if nothing happened, talked to the Pvt and finally the Pvt made his way over to him.... a distance of only a few yards, mind you.
My friend (the LT) told his Pvt to call over the radio that he needed a MEDEVAC now, and he even told him what to say. The Pvt couldn't even speak over the radio, that's how ****ed up he was in the head over this whole thing. The LT called in his own MEDEVAC over the radio!! He could barely even speak loud enough for the Higher Ups on the other end to hear him, but eventually got the message across.
Today my friend is alive and well, but sadly remains completely paralyzed from the mid-chest down. But he is one out-****ing-standing, hardcore and motivated individual who now has a really sweet govt job that I cannot disclose. Just know that he's still serving his country in a very direct way.;)
My point with this novel (aside from being a really interesting story about one hard mother****er) is this: People react in a wide variety of ways when something traumatic happens to them or to someone near them... even someone whom they love and care deeply for. Some people freeze from shock, some people fight through that shock and get shit done (i.e. my good friend who was the one who was shot and could've easily gone into shock and died from blood loss, but didn't... he rose to the occasion and fought through that shit!).
You have no idea what your own reaction would be in such an event. Really the only things you can do to attempt to prevent that whole "freezing up" thing is to train, train, and train some more. And also train your mind to have the warrior mindset, so that when something traumatic happens, your muscle memory flicks on and you fight through that shit and kill/save/take care of whoever needs to be killed/saved/taken care of.
I've personally experienced both in combat: rising to the occasion and taking care of business, and straight up passing out from shock from being shot in the chest... well, under the left armpit, and then it traveled through my chest. But thats a different story for a different day.;)
**** me my fingers hurt now!
Semper Fi',
-Paul
SWATcop556
08-06-09, 04:30
Anyone and everyone can talk as much shit about "what they'll do when the time comes" and someone is coming into their residence and "I'll shoot that mother f**ker even if he's leaving."
I have been an LEO for years and have many many hours in LEO CQB training as well as SWAT and two-man team tactics. I also spend a huge amount of my income on private training. I can shoot the center of a target out with a pistol at 30-50 yards and I'm what I would call a "damn good shot" with any of my rifles. I read about and work around firearms every day of my life. I carry a firearm 24/7 and my work SBR is right next to the bed at night when I lay my head down. I like to think of myself as a very switched on guy.
It is very well documented that an AR is much safer (with the right ammo selection) than anything else.
Some of you guys are probably wondering "why is this guy going on and on about his credentials and what he knows." I say ll of that to say this.........
I just finished working a long graveyard shift a few weeks ago. I grab a quick shower and I crashed out. I woke up at 11:30 in the afternoon to a noise I couldn't quite make out. Given the time of day I thought it was the significant other home from work to make a lunch. I then doze back off to sleep.
I was then rudely awaken by the blaring alarm system. I grabbed my Glock off the nightstand because I was "just going to check" why the alarm was going off. I didn't know if it was the apartments checking the fire alarms or what.
I get to the alarm pad and I see no one is home but me. The pad said "breaking Zone 4" which is the spare bedroom. I go to that room and look inside. The window is broken and the blinds are pushed in over the headboard of the bed. I was surveying the damage when I see a human leg come through the window, followed by an arm and shoulder, and then the beginnings of a head. Bad breath distance at its best. I was no more than 6 feet away.
I put my front sight on the shitbags head and was pulling back on the trigger........and then years of LEO training kicked in and for whatever reason I yell at the top of my lungs "SHERIFF'S OFFICE!!!!" :eek: I still have no idea why I yelled this other than in high stress I go into "cop-mode." I was not in "this is my f**king home what are you doing in here" mode.
Shitbag falls out of the window and into the yard outside and I immediately release the trigger without firing a shot. I then run to the front door and give chase but he's long gone by then. I grabbed the phone and called 911.
I stood there breathing hard and sweating trying to calm down for the worst adrenaline dump of my life (and I've had many). I was so amped up that it took me a few minutes to realize I was holding a pistol and only wearing boxers standing outside my apartment yelling into a telephone. :o
Why do I tell that story, which I find more than a little embarassing. Many people can say "I'll kill anyone that comes in my house" and I was guilty of it too. I am very well trained and get paid a crappy amount of money to go into some very dangerous situations.
When push came to shove, I reacted (which is better than sitting there pissing your pants). If you have time or are awake enough, or are already thinking the worst (which I was not) to grab your $2200 boomstick and are thinking clearly then grab it an go to town.
I let my guard down just a little and ended up in a damn-near lethal force confrontation with a home intruder and I had a pistol and barely enough to cover what God gave me. When the shit hits the fan, you'll be dancing with what you brought. Train, Train, Train..............and sleep in pajama pants! :cool:
was she in shock or do you think mabey she hired that guy to come kill you? mabey thats why the dog didnt bark, the dude had a key, and she just sat there and watched?
seems like she would have called 911?
Lots of things happen to your mind and body when you are in a life or death situation. The sympathetic nervous system is activated and there are all kinds of things going on that effect your ability to react. If it is not a situation you have experienced before or for which you have trained or prepared your reactions may not make sense in hindsight. What was very likely happening to her was that she was met with a completely unfamiliar situation and had never even thought about how she would react to something like that. Her brain was searching for a proper response and couldn't find one so she froze. She couldn't react until her brain found the proper response.
The more you properly train and think about reactions to violent situations the less effect the "adrenaline dump" will have on your cognitive and physical reactive processes and the more quickly your brain will find the proper response to the threat.
Something like that anyway.
Mr.Goodtimes
08-06-09, 08:39
Anyone and everyone can talk as much shit about "what they'll do when the time comes" and someone is coming into their residence and "I'll shoot that mother f**ker even if he's leaving."
I have been an LEO for years and have many many hours in LEO CQB training as well as SWAT and two-man team tactics. I also spend a huge amount of my income on private training. I can shoot the center of a target out with a pistol at 30-50 yards and I'm what I would call a "damn good shot" with any of my rifles. I read about and work around firearms every day of my life. I carry a firearm 24/7 and my work SBR is right next to the bed at night when I lay my head down. I like to think of myself as a very switched on guy.
It is very well documented that an AR is much safer (with the right ammo selection) than anything else.
Some of you guys are probably wondering "why is this guy going on and on about his credentials and what he knows." I say ll of that to say this.........
I just finished working a long graveyard shift a few weeks ago. I grab a quick shower and I crashed out. I woke up at 11:30 in the afternoon to a noise I couldn't quite make out. Given the time of day I thought it was the significant other home from work to make a lunch. I then doze back off to sleep.
I was then rudely awaken by the blaring alarm system. I grabbed my Glock off the nightstand because I was "just going to check" why the alarm was going off. I didn't know if it was the apartments checking the fire alarms or what.
I get to the alarm pad and I see no one is home but me. The pad said "breaking Zone 4" which is the spare bedroom. I go to that room and look inside. The window is broken and the blinds are pushed in over the headboard of the bed. I was surveying the damage when I see a human leg come through the window, followed by an arm and shoulder, and then the beginnings of a head. Bad breath distance at its best. I was no more than 6 feet away.
I put my front sight on the shitbags head and was pulling back on the trigger........and then years of LEO training kicked in and for whatever reason I yell at the top of my lungs "SHERIFF'S OFFICE!!!!" :eek: I still have no idea why I yelled this other than in high stress I go into "cop-mode." I was not in "this is my f**king home what are you doing in here" mode.
Shitbag falls out of the window and into the yard outside and I immediately release the trigger without firing a shot. I then run to the front door and give chase but he's long gone by then. I grabbed the phone and called 911.
I stood there breathing hard and sweating trying to calm down for the worst adrenaline dump of my life (and I've had many). I was so amped up that it took me a few minutes to realize I was holding a pistol and only wearing boxers standing outside my apartment yelling into a telephone. :o
Why do I tell that story, which I find more than a little embarassing. Many people can say "I'll kill anyone that comes in my house" and I was guilty of it too. I am very well trained and get paid a crappy amount of money to go into some very dangerous situations.
When push came to shove, I reacted (which is better than sitting there pissing your pants). If you have time or are awake enough, or are already thinking the worst (which I was not) to grab your $2200 boomstick and are thinking clearly then grab it an go to town.
I let my guard down just a little and ended up in a damn-near lethal force confrontation with a home intruder and I had a pistol and barely enough to cover what God gave me. When the shit hits the fan, you'll be dancing with what you brought. Train, Train, Train..............and sleep in pajama pants! :cool:
wow, good story bro. glad everything turned out alright for you.
thanks bro. but i can tell you I'm no bad-ass ninja operator type. I just found myself waking up in abject horror and I suppose it gave me a double-shot of that grandmaw-lifts-the-Volkswagen-off-the-kid type of strength for as long as I needed it.
looking back, I (we) made every stupid mistake in the book and lived to tell the tale. did I mention that my future wife was sitting up in bed right next to me watching the whole thing while I was fighting with this guy and she never did anything to help me? she never made so much as a sound. and then, when the guy withdrew and ran out of the apartment, and I'm left standing there bleeding and blinking my eyes, she breaks out into hysterics...
Always interesting how the actual details of events turn out rather than the anticipated ones. Been down the road a couple times, and it's always full of surprises.
Glad both you and SwatCop1911 are alright. Live and learn, then move on that much wiser.
I let my guard down just a little and ended up in a damn-near lethal force confrontation with a home intruder and I had a pistol and barely enough to cover what God gave me.:
I would say letting your guard down at home is normal. In truth, you can't live your life in a constant state of hyper-vigilance. Its just not realistic. I'm sure everyone has been awoken from sleep and not know why. At the end of the day you had the foresight to install an alarm system and had an accessible weapon. Besides the $ to fix a broken window, you lost nothing.
Shitbag falls out of the window and into the yard outside and I immediately release the trigger without firing a shot. I then run to the front door and give chase but he's long gone by then. I grabbed the phone and called 911.
Uhm where did you get a phone after chasing him half naked?
I sleep wearing old cargo shorts. It took my wife a while to get used to it. Pockets can be very handy.
QuickStrike
08-07-09, 06:49
Uhm where did you get a phone after chasing him half naked?
Probably his house...
QuietShootr
08-07-09, 07:37
I keep a 12ga shotgun (Rem Police 870; fixed full choke) under the bed for home defense. Using an AR-15 to protect your home is crazy in my opinion. I have a Glock 19 and a 12 ga for that.
Who is coming after you anyway???? Seal Team 6..... You are normally faced with one or two intruders. The nice thing about the shotty is I do not have to be perfectly accurate to make hits. If you have seen any target hit with 00 Buck or #4 Pheasant at 20 ft than you know you do not want any part of those pellets. They mangle 1/4" plywood sheets sending chunks flying. I do not want to over-penetrate and I cannot expect great accuracy from myself being awaken suddenly with adrenaline pounding.
And what is this about a flashlight....oh here I am. Shoot this way please?????? ID targets....I know who is supposed to be in my home and who isn't. If the alarm goes off and you are not my wife whom is sleeping next to me or my dog than your fair game!!!!! Should have picked another home. If you have kids or guests than that seems reasonable, but I just cannot see why one prefers to have a light source...if the perp is not in the beam you can't see him, but he can see you. Just sounds bad. If someone is in my home than I am going to let them come into my sight picture...allow them to make noise, while I remain in the shadows.....
:rolleyes:
QuietShootr
08-07-09, 07:41
Stop. You're doing the same thing here you're doing in the cleaning thread.
Not cleaning a gun for 1k rounds does not equal not changing a car's oil for 50k miles, and keeping an AR for home defense does not equal sleeping in molle or claymores and all that other shit.
The idea that you're training ANYONE in the defensive or offensive use of a firearm, much less someone that's likely to go into harm's way (if your claims are to be believed) is terrifying.
No shit.
What the hell is happening to this site? People used to come here to learn...now they want to come here and spout AR15.comish bullshit.
perna- Your first post is to somehow attempt to criticize/seed doubt about a SWAT officer? Even worse, we know he is a good guy, highly trained, and a certified ass-kicker.
If you have LE or Mil training, please share it with us. This site is always looking for qualified individuals(verifiable) that can add to the discussion.
decodeddiesel
08-07-09, 09:24
Uhm where did you get a phone after chasing him half naked?
perna not a good way to get started here Bro.
Mr.Goodtimes
08-07-09, 10:30
I think an AR is a just fine home defense tool. Especially if you use the rifle quite often. It's all about what you're comfortable with, just like anything.
TacLight is a must to I.D. targets. You're right, my wife should be next to me. And even if she is, you don't know who you're about to shoot down. Could just be a neighbor coming home drunk and getting the house mixed up. Not a good thing, no. But not okay to engage either. It's always better to keep a clear head, and I recognize that you may be putting yourself at a tactical disadvantage by holding back.
As far as walls, it's all about the round, and shot placement. Might sound a little twisted, but I use VMax bullets in my defense loads. Work great on furry bits, and will work great on fleshy bits too. And the chances of it penetrating walls like a FMJ is considerably less. I bet a VMax bullet won't even go as far as a standard JHP. I have no tests to back this up, however.
Use a tac-light, and make sure you can see your sighting device.
40 and 55gr TAP uses VMAX bullets. So long as the individual is not wearing body armor :p these should be excellent.
Thomas M-4
08-07-09, 12:47
You need to post in site comments/questions
QuietShootr
08-07-09, 12:55
That would likely be a spammer.
SWATcop556
08-07-09, 13:36
Uhm where did you get a phone after chasing him half naked?
After seeing that the suspect was gone I retrieved my cell phone from the kitchen counter. My personal cell charges in the kitchen and the work cell is on the nightstand. The boxers were black with white skull and crossbones on them that my wife bought me last Halloween. I was carrying a Glock 31C (issued) with a Surefire X300 mounted.
If there are any other questions you would like to know I'll answer up. :rolleyes:
Oh yeah.......I sleep on my right side in a slight fetal position and I'm told I can be a bit of a snorer. :cool:
Is it too late on this thread to ask if you guys think hearing protection is mandatory for using an AR carbine for HD? If I had a couple hundred spare dineros for a high end electronic set of muffs I'd probably apply it to a TA11. ;)
I'm sure the high freq loss I have had since my 20's was from the volume of blanks fired in FTX's back in the day. One more mag dumped in my foyer . . . what's the harm in that? :D
SWATcop556
08-07-09, 20:45
When involved in an extremely high-stress situation your bodily will naturally protect your ears and hearing.
In an OIS we had an officer fire a Glock 31C near another officers right ear and we were so focused on big guy with big rifle that no one had any hearing issues and didn't even notice too much that the shots had been fired.
I do NOT recommend this for all shooting as ear pro should mandatory nut in an oh shit situation your body does have natural defenses.
RetreatHell
08-07-09, 21:48
When involved in an extremely high-stress situation your bodily will naturally protect your ears and hearing.
In an OIS we had an officer fire a Glock 31C near another officers right ear and we were so focused on big guy with big rifle that no one had any hearing issues and didn't even notice too much that the shots had been fired.
I do NOT recommend this for all shooting as ear pro should mandatory nut in an oh shit situation your body does have natural defenses.
This is very true. Back in 2003 over in Iraq, a fellow Marine fired his M-16 at some "targets of opportunity" down the road... his muzzle was literally 12 inches away from, and completely parallel to, my right ear due to a very awkward position I was taking up while standing in a fighting hole that the enemy had previously excavated before our arrival in that town. My adrenaline was not up at that moment, I was completely calm. And my ears rang like a son of a bitch when he pulled that blasted trigger about 4-5 times!!
Just 30 minutes later however, when we were further down the road in a backyard engaging several bad guys at pretty close range (roughly 30-40 feet, max), I fired my M-16A2 service rifle over and over again, never once noticing the loud noises that were definitely coming from it. My adrenaline was peaked the **** out, and the only noise I heard coming from my assault rifle was very similar to the how you hear things above the surface when you're underwater. It was all very muffled, almost like every noise was being filtered through some sort of "Charlie Brown" noise filter (if that makes any damn sense?).
Even when my Squad Leader chucked a frag grenade into a small shack in that backyard, where the enemy fighters were holed up taking cover and firing at us, I barely heard the thing explode. And those of you who have witnessed/heard fragmentation grenades going off even 100 feet away know that those bitches are deafening, especially for being so damn small!
Bottom line, earpro is the very last thing you should be concerned about when it comes to any defensive shooting engagement.
Now, on the other hand, if you're on the offense and time is on your side, say you're going to rob a 7/11 or pull off some other crazy kind of crackhead shenanigans, then by all means put on some electronic earpro before you enter the place!:p
-Paul
goodoleboy
08-07-09, 22:12
Does anyone know of any on-line LEO after action reviews for actual felon shoots using either the 40gr. or 55gr. 223. TAP?
The Hornady web site testomonials are pretty much fluff, as on would expect. However, the product description info is good so far as it goes.
After reading this thread, I'm getting interested in this ammo. Maybe a mag or two on-hand when the AR isn't on the range. Right now I pretty much keep a pistol ready for home defense use.
If the terminal effects of the lighter grain Hornady 223. TAP at very short ranges is substantially better than my hand gun loads, a change may be in order.
I just spoke to the supervisor of my Sheriff's Dept. SWAT team last week about this very issue. His take was the result of a recent study using different ammo on building code residential walls. Buckshot and pistol ammo did some of the most serious penetration. The .223 55 gr. hollow points (fired from a 16" carbine, however the full length rifle penetrated more)) would fragment after a couple of interior walls. The 12 ga shotgun with #6 shot wouldn't make it through an interior wall (front and back), but it was debatable about total incapacitation of the target.
His take was that from a reliability perspective, you have the least threat of collateral damage from the 12 ga with #6 shot, the buckshot and slug offered the greatest hope of total incapacitation per shot (at the expense of over penetration), the .223 firing 55 gr. hollow points, fired from the Carbine at close range would fragment after a couple of interior walls (while offering greater accuracy with follow-up shots as compared to any other shoulder-fired weapons in the test), yadda yadda.
The bottom line is this: There is a trade-off between risk of collateral damage and incapacitation of an attacker. The greater the risk for the attacker, the greater the risk for collateral damage.
My preference: I have two weapons loaded at all times by my bed (within arms reach, further away is pointless), they are a 12 ga. Model 870 Remington riot gun (open choke) loaded with 00 Buck (closest) and a XD-45 5" tactical model loaded with 230 gr. hollow points. I have the luxury of living in the country, so overpenetration might damage cars, windows, etc., but I don't have to worry about posing a threat to neighbors.
I would err on the side of protecting my family. If you are worried about hitting an attacker that you know where he is, vs. hitting an unknown person in an ajoining room, the danger of hitting an unforseen target drops off exponentially compared to hitting a known target.
Bottom Line: I'd rather be tried by 12 of my peers than be carried (or God forbid) watch my wife be carried away by 6 of my friends. My .02 worth.
SWATcop- I'm going to shamelessly steal from Gunz here. By wearing your boxers, were you going to engage in "cock and awe" as a secondary means of defense? Wait a minute, knowing you it was going to be offense(ive)!:p:p:p
Getting back to the original question, in testing conducted by my own department, we found that out Federal Tactical 00 buck penetrated about 4 interior drywalls. Our .40 caliber SXT penetrated about six interior drywalls. 12 gauge slug penetrated 10 interior drywalls and buried itself in a sandbag wall behind the test stand. 5.56 FMJ penetrated 5 interior drywalls, less than the .40 caliber round. The high velocity combined with low mass caused the 5.56 round to come apart much quicker than the pistol round. This is why our SWAT team has all but ceased using subguns in favor of 5.56 AR carbines for room clearing operations.
We also recently shot ordinary crown victoria doors to see their resistance to gunfire. One pistol round, .32 ACP, failed to penetrate even one side of the door. One pistol round, 9mm, penetrated one side, and struck the cross-beam inside the door and failed to penetrate the opposite side. One rifle round, the 5.56 FMJ, penetrated one side, struck the window motor inside the door, and failed to penetrate to the other side. All the other rounds we fired, .357, .45, .40, 12-gauge buckshot and slug, 7.62 X 39, 7.62 x 51, and 30-06 punch through car doors like tissue paper. I have to admit to being surprised at the level of penetration by the 12-gauge buckshot round.
In answer to the original question, there is absolutely nothing wrong with using a 5.56 rifle for home defense. In many ways its superior to the shotgun and the pistol. The only potential downside I can see is the inevitable legal battle afterwards with the "black rifle" looking much more "scary" than the humble, wooden-stocked shotgun. But as an armed professional, I keep an AR for home defense; its better to have it and not need it then need it and not have it.
DocGKR has done the buckshot/5.56/.357, etc. testing extensively in lab conditions and the info can be found in the Terminal Ballistic Info. section. As he has said, the exact make/model of the round is paramount. Some types of ammo are better for certain applications. Not all 5.56(M855, M193)/.32/00 buck(Flite Control?), etc. is the same by a long shot. Considering his credentials, I tend to give lots of weight to his conclusions. He has posted and stickied lots of great info. utilized by LE and Mil. Excellent sources. Hope it helps.
Jay Cunningham
08-08-09, 15:19
Getting back to the original question, in testing conducted by my own department, we found that out Federal Tactical 00 buck penetrated about 4 interior drywalls. Our .40 caliber SXT penetrated about six interior drywalls. 12 gauge slug penetrated 10 interior drywalls and buried itself in a sandbag wall behind the test stand. 5.56 FMJ penetrated 5 interior drywalls, less than the .40 caliber round. The high velocity combined with low mass caused the 5.56 round to come apart much quicker than the pistol round. This is why our SWAT team has all but ceased using subguns in favor of 5.56 AR carbines for room clearing operations.
We also recently shot ordinary crown victoria doors to see their resistance to gunfire. One pistol round, .32 ACP, failed to penetrate even one side of the door. One pistol round, 9mm, penetrated one side, and struck the cross-beam inside the door and failed to penetrate the opposite side. One rifle round, the 5.56 FMJ, penetrated one side, struck the window motor inside the door, and failed to penetrate to the other side. All the other rounds we fired, .357, .45, .40, 12-gauge buckshot and slug, 7.62 X 39, 7.62 x 51, and 30-06 punch through car doors like tissue paper. I have to admit to being surprised at the level of penetration by the 12-gauge buckshot round.
In answer to the original question, there is absolutely nothing wrong with using a 5.56 rifle for home defense. In many ways its superior to the shotgun and the pistol. The only potential downside I can see is the inevitable legal battle afterwards with the "black rifle" looking much more "scary" than the humble, wooden-stocked shotgun. But as an armed professional, I keep an AR for home defense; its better to have it and not need it then need it and not have it.
Thank you for an informative post!
stevenhyde
08-08-09, 16:13
We also recently shot ordinary crown victoria doors to see their resistance to gunfire. One pistol round, .32 ACP, failed to penetrate even one side of the door. One pistol round, 9mm, penetrated one side, and struck the cross-beam inside the door and failed to penetrate the opposite side. One rifle round, the 5.56 FMJ, penetrated one side, struck the window motor inside the door, and failed to penetrate to the other side. All the other rounds we fired, .357, .45, .40, 12-gauge buckshot and slug, 7.62 X 39, 7.62 x 51, and 30-06 punch through car doors like tissue paper. I have to admit to being surprised at the level of penetration by the 12-gauge buckshot round.
In answer to the original question, there is absolutely nothing wrong with using a 5.56 rifle for home defense. In many ways its superior to the shotgun and the pistol. The only potential downside I can see is the inevitable legal battle afterwards with the "black rifle" looking much more "scary" than the humble, wooden-stocked shotgun. But as an armed professional, I keep an AR for home defense; its better to have it and not need it then need it and not have it.
was there only one round of 9mm and 5.56mm tested?
the 9mm hit a cross brace and the 5.56mm hit a motor, so of course theyre less likely to "punch through the car door like tissue paper" than rounds hitting only the metal door panels.
what about the other rounds? did they hit anything besides the metal door panels?
if thats the case....apples to oranges. which is all well and good, just something for me to know and think about.
steven
Most 9mm rounds have no trouble penetrating car doors from what I've seen.
Maybe Crown Vics are an exception.
We tried both hollow point and FMJ 9mm, neither penetrated. The FMJ struck the cross beam, the hollow point simply failed to penetrate. We only fired one 5.56, because we were setting up a display to show our officers' what poor cover a car door is, and the door was pretty banged up by that point. I don't think that a car door would be good cover for pretty much any pistol, rifle or shotgun round, and that depending on the circumstances, a car door might stop some rounds, but I wouldn't bet my life on it. But this does display how quickly the 5.56 round disperses its energy and is not over-penetration nightmare many believe it to be.
On a different note, we also shot an ordinary steel mail box to see if it would stop rounds; it stopped .40 caliber pistol rounds, but not 5.56 FMJ rounds. The 5.56 rounds came out sideways on the opposite side we shot, so I can't be certain of its wound/stopping potential. The 5.56 rounds we used were Federal 55-grain FMJ in both tests.
I guess the point is the 5.56 round, especially a TAP or other specialized round, has a lot less potential over-penetration issues then many people assume. And shotgun and pistol rounds will certainly penetrate most interior walls very easily, so don't assume you are automatically safe in using these rounds for home defense. As others have stated, using a small-pellet birdshot doesn't give one enough penetration to reasonably ensure stopping a threat, so I wouldn't recommend that as a solution either. I can only say the best solution is good training, using high-quality hollowpoint or other expanding rounds, and having a white-light system to positively ID threats.
Until we determine the effectiveness of the AR against UFO's this thread is essentially going nowhere.
Julius Carbinius
08-09-09, 20:27
We tried both hollow point and FMJ 9mm, neither penetrated. The FMJ struck the cross beam, the hollow point simply failed to penetrate. We only fired one 5.56, because we were setting up a display to show our officers' what poor cover a car door is, and the door was pretty banged up by that point. I don't think that a car door would be good cover for pretty much any pistol, rifle or shotgun round, and that depending on the circumstances, a car door might stop some rounds, but I wouldn't bet my life on it. But this does display how quickly the 5.56 round disperses its energy and is not over-penetration nightmare many believe it to be.
On a different note, we also shot an ordinary steel mail box to see if it would stop rounds; it stopped .40 caliber pistol rounds, but not 5.56 FMJ rounds. The 5.56 rounds came out sideways on the opposite side we shot, so I can't be certain of its wound/stopping potential. The 5.56 rounds we used were Federal 55-grain FMJ in both tests.
I guess the point is the 5.56 round, especially a TAP or other specialized round, has a lot less potential over-penetration issues then many people assume. And shotgun and pistol rounds will certainly penetrate most interior walls very easily, so don't assume you are automatically safe in using these rounds for home defense. As others have stated, using a small-pellet birdshot doesn't give one enough penetration to reasonably ensure stopping a threat, so I wouldn't recommend that as a solution either. I can only say the best solution is good training, using high-quality hollowpoint or other expanding rounds, and having a white-light system to positively ID threats.
Thanks for posting that information, Killjoy. It has made the decision for me to use the M4 pattern carbine for home defense much easier. :)
John_Wayne777
08-09-09, 20:44
We also recently shot ordinary crown victoria doors to see their resistance to gunfire. One pistol round, .32 ACP, failed to penetrate even one side of the door. One pistol round, 9mm, penetrated one side, and struck the cross-beam inside the door and failed to penetrate the opposite side. One rifle round, the 5.56 FMJ, penetrated one side, struck the window motor inside the door, and failed to penetrate to the other side. All the other rounds we fired, .357, .45, .40, 12-gauge buckshot and slug, 7.62 X 39, 7.62 x 51, and 30-06 punch through car doors like tissue paper. I have to admit to being surprised at the level of penetration by the 12-gauge buckshot round.
It's a function of the door's structure. Unless the round hits a structural crossmember, a power window motor, or a sturdy piece of the window elevator (or perhaps these days door mounted airbags) just about any caliber will punch through car doors easily. If somebody puts multiple rounds on the car door broadside....well:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/images/buick/buickdoorh11.jpg
They're getting through both doors.
Folks, by this point we've heard from a number of armed professionals like Killjoy who have had to carefully consider these questions and test weapon and ammo combinations to come up with an answer...and the 5.56 loaded sensibly keeps coming out as the preferred choice. The AR loaded reasonably is less likely to cause collateral damage than many more common home defense weapons, is easier to shoot under stress than those weapons, and has considerable tactical advantages over those other weapons. Kinda seems like a no brainer, right?
was there only one round of 9mm and 5.56mm tested?
the 9mm hit a cross brace and the 5.56mm hit a motor, so of course theyre less likely to "punch through the car door like tissue paper" than rounds hitting only the metal door panels.
what about the other rounds? did they hit anything besides the metal door panels?
if thats the case....apples to oranges. which is all well and good, just something for me to know and think about.
steven
I'm not a ballistics expert, but I have participated in a few medium shoots involving vehicles. Whether a given round penetrates or not is largely dependent upon what it hits. Car doors in general do not stop any rounds unless the round happens to hit a particularly tough structural element of the door, a power window motor, or perhaps part of the window elevator system.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/images/buick/buickdoorh4.jpg
The door of this Buick was shot with 3 rounds of 9mm, .40, and .45 ACP. (That finger belongs to Kyle Defoor, one of our SME's here) All of the rounds penetrated the door, as you can see by looking at the target. It's much the same situation for rifle rounds:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/images/buick/buickdoorr8.jpg
This is the car door on the other side of the vehicle, and as you can see a couple of 5.56 rounds nearly penetrated both doors despite traveling through pieces of the interior. The 7.62 went straight through.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/images/buick/buickdoorr12.jpg
For shotguns it's more of the same. A single door is not much protection:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/images/buick/buickdoors3.jpg
http://www.theboxotruth.com/images/buick/buickdoors4.jpg
Buckshot tended to stop somewhere in the passenger compartment or in the second door. Slugs, of course, tended to punch through both doors. Birdshot, even from relatively close range, generally doesn't even penetrate the sheet metal skin of a vehicle. The worst I've seen birdshot do is punch a big dent in the sheet metal with perhaps a split happening just from the stress it's put under by the payload of birdshot.
A big thank you to Killjoy and GoodOleBoy for actually addressing my question and getting this thread back on track.
The practical ballistics information is very useful. Thanx guys.
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