View Full Version : Michael Vick
Does anybody else agree that he shouldn't have been reinstated.
I do.
He should still be in jail.
geminidglocker
07-28-09, 17:24
I hope he gets fatally injured. I'de like to see him do more time behind bars.
RogerinTPA
07-28-09, 17:27
He should have been given a lifetime ban.
ljlinson1206
07-28-09, 17:34
And what kind of message are we sending to our kids? Makes me sick!!!!!!! :mad:
So far, after one day, no team is pursuing him which I think is incredibly smart on their part. I believe it would be a public relations catastrophe for any team to pick him up.
Any and all animal lovers would definitely shy away from which ever team picks him up and you know the PETA wack jobs will be protesting every game, and that's the one time I'd be cheering them on.
There are players who have done far worse than Vick, that still play ball in the NFL. I think there are others who should have been made an example of rather than Vick. To go after him would be hypocritical.
There are players who have done far worse than Vick, that still play ball in the NFL. I think there are others who should have been made an example of rather than Vick. To go after him would be hypocritical.
Please give details and why you think they should've been made as an example VS Michael "Piece of Shit" Vick.
I think that Vick is too much of a marketing liability for any team to risk.
Please give details and why you think they should've been made as an example VS Michael "Piece of Shit" Vick.
I'm not defending Vick, I was alluding to off the field activities of other players who continued to play in the NFL, a couple that come to mind, the Rams Lineman Leonard Little, who killed a woman in a DUI accident, was convicted and went on to have a NFL career. That lineman from Nebraska that was convicted of sexual assault.
What Vick did was horrible, I was merely putting that in context of other pro athletes who played after criminal convictions. After all killing a woman is not the same as killing animals. The NFL has a right to make there own standards and fans can decide whether or not they would support the NFL.
I think that Vick is too much of a marketing liability for any team to risk.
I agree, that's why I see him ending up in the UFL as their star player.
Remember Ray Lewis ? Was accused of shooting up a guy in the Buckhead partying district after a Super Bowl game in Atlanta in the 90s. Many thought that the incompetent Atlanta DA Paul Howard screwed up the case and let Lewis walk free.
As for Vick, I'm glad the Falcons owner Arthur Blank released him from the team. Blank used to be Vick's strongest supporters until this dog mess. I respect Mr. Blank for that. Falcons got a better passer QB in Matt Ryan and low key off the field.
Remember Ray Lewis ? Was accused of shooting up a guy in the Buckhead partying district after a Super Bowl game in Atlanta in the 90s. Many thought that the incompetent Atlanta DA Paul Howard screwed up the case and let Lewis walk free.
As for Vick, I'm glad the Falcons owner Arthur Blank released him from the team. Blank used to be Vick's strongest supporters until this dog mess. I respect Mr. Blank for that. Falcons got a better passer QB in Matt Ryan and low key off the field.
IIRC, Lewis' entourage killed two members of a rappers entourage. Lewis admitted fighting, I believe the 2 died from being beat to death or stabbed. The Super Bowl double homicide ended up with aquittals, Lewis plea bargained to obstruction or something of that nature.
:confused:I don't really understand everybody's hostility towards M. Vick being reinstated. The man has paid a VERY steep price for his actions. In the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars in lost salary endorsements and investments. The lost fan support friends and public backlash. Not to mention the 23 months in prison term.
While I understand that playing in the NFL is a privilege. Anybody who says M. Vick has not paid his debt to society and to the NFL is out of their DAMN mind. The man has paid a very steep price already and he deserves a chance to prove he has changed.
ljlinson1206
07-28-09, 19:10
The man has paid a very steep price already and he deserves a chance to prove he has changed.
If he wants to prove he has changed tell him to pick up a rifle and go to Afghanistan and really pay a debt.
geminidglocker
07-28-09, 19:14
Sorry, I tend to like dogs alot more than most of the people I know. I agree with the last post, send him to the sandbox to proove he's a real man. Oh, wait, Felons can't own guns. Nor may they carry them in the service.
i think he should have been banned from the NFL for life,i watched an hour-long special on that situation on the "history channel",or something awile back. there was some gruesome stuff going on [electrocuting dogs, drowning them, knocking them in the head]----my dad told me when i was a young man "if you mess with shit,,you gonna get some on you"-- i wouldn't personally want that jerk around me. some are saying on the radio talk-show "they are picking on him because he is black", animal cruelity and race do not run hand-in-hand,i say he is a heartless man, and the ones least likely to give mercy, are the ones that will scream for it most. life is about decisions, he made some bad ones--LIVE WITH IT!!!
RogerinTPA
07-28-09, 19:25
:confused:I don't really understand everybody's hostility towards M. Vick being reinstated. The man has paid a VERY steep price for his actions. In the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars in lost salary endorsements and investments. The lost fan support friends and public backlash. Not to mention the 23 months in prison term.
While I understand that playing in the NFL is a privilege. Anybody who says M. Vick has not paid his debt to society and to the NFL is out of their DAMN mind. The man has paid a very steep price already and he deserves a chance to prove he has changed.
Agreed, but it's the fact that making dogs fight to the death for sport, just paints the man as a barbaric, heartless MoFo, regardless of the acceptability of the sport in certain areas of the country. Dogs have character, and should be respected.
:confused:I don't really understand everybody's hostility towards M. Vick being reinstated. The man has paid a VERY steep price for his actions. In the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars in lost salary endorsements and investments. The lost fan support friends and public backlash. Not to mention the 23 months in prison term.
While I understand that playing in the NFL is a privilege. Anybody who says M. Vick has not paid his debt to society and to the NFL is out of their DAMN mind. The man has paid a very steep price already and he deserves a chance to prove he has changed.
Vick was a methodical, sadistic torturer and killer of dogs in his captivity. All for personal amusement and some profit he surely didn't need. No accident, just a violence loving man who is ****ed in the head.
Therefore, he is by default alone human shit and the NFL really doesn't need him.
I am sure there are others much more deserving of your support.
Did you not confirm that Leonard Little killed a woman in an accident? How is that relevant here?
Vick was a methodical, sadistic torturer and killer of dogs in his captivity. All for personal amusement and some profit he surely didn't need. No accident, just a violence loving man who is ****ed in the head.
Therefore, he is by default alone human shit and the NFL really doesn't need him.
I am sure there are others much more deserving of your support.
The question posed was "Does anybody else agree that he(Vick) shouldn't have been reinstated ?"
1-Vick would be reinstatement is the result of NFL standards regarding criminal activities of players
2-The NFL was allowed numerous convicted felons to play ball
3-Leornard Little killed a woman in a DUI accident and was convicted of involuntary manslaughter. I wouldn't characterize Little's incident as an accident, considering he was impaired. You might consider DUI fatalities as accidents, but most states laws do not.
4-The death of a human being is not the same as the death of an animal. How could an organization allow someone who killed a person play, and not allow Vick to play ? It is relevant as to the standards of the NFL considering they are the ones who make the call regarding who plays and who doesn't.
4-The death of a human being is not the same as the death of an animal. How could an organization allow someone who killed a person play, and not allow Vick to play ?
It was you that initially mentioned Leonard Little, not Jrainer. My apologies to him, though he seems to be on your side.
That said, the above is an extremely hollow argument. Even though he was drinking, he most assuredly did not set out to hurt someone. And certainly not out of enjoyment purposes only. Animals or not, there is a difference.
You and a few other dopes, including NFL players, state that just because they were dogs it is OK. That is wrong. In fact I would state that some of those that condone such slop are more animal than the dogs they make fight each other.
I will even happily go so far as to say that I would pick the dogs life over most if not all of those in the crowd making him fight for their amusement. Any day of the week.
365 days per year.
The NFL has been known as the National Felon League for years. With any luck if he is picked up the fans will boycott, and force his being released.
i hate to yet again be the minority dissenter, but c'mon- he's a dang football player. what more can you expect from him? a bigger crime is making sports stars into roll models. kids should not be taught to look up to these people. it's just like the military- how many officers did you find truly worthy of your salute? not very many- you saluted the uniform, not the man.
atheletes are the same thing- respect the skills, not the man. i really dont give a flying turd what these guys do off the field. it has absolutely nothing to do with their skill. they're made into heros because heros sell products, not because they represent some high level of morality. ad revenue, my friends- not ethics- makes them heros.
let the man play ball.
It was you that initially mentioned Leonard Little, not Jrainer. My apologies to him, though he seems to be on your side. That's right Einstein, it was me. I'm voicing my own opinions, I'm not on anyones side, your making that distinction.
That said, the above is an extremely hollow argument. Even though he was drinking, he most assuredly did not set out to hurt someone. And certainly not out of enjoyment purposes only. Animals or not, there is a difference.Its a hollow argument to you, many states do not share your viewpoint. I realize, Safetyhit your legal concepts regarding legislation to ensure safety on American roadways is far superior.:rolleyes: He killed someone through negligence, ie, driving with a .19 BAC. If you think killing a person through negligence is worse than killing a animal as part of a dog fighting ring, that is your opinion, but many would disagree. Not only is a persons life gone for good, think about the impact of the death of human being to the victims family,ect.
You and a few other dopes, including NFL players, state that just because they were dogs it is OK. That is wrong. In fact I would state that some of those that condone such slop are more animal than the dogs they make fight each other. A dope ? In no way did I ever defend Vick or condone what he did. I even said so, go back and read for clarity,genious. Here, let me help you, quote "What Vick did was horrible, I was merely putting that in context of other pro athletes who played after criminal convictions. After all killing a woman is not the same as killing animals. The NFL has a right to make there own standards and fans can decide whether or not they would support the NFL." I was speaking to the overly lax standards of the NFL and there obvious rights as a organization,as well as fans rights to support the NFL by making there own determinations but apparrently you are not equipped to grasp that. I was also alluding to societies tacit condoning of pro athletes such as Little or rapists,drug dealers that have athletic talent.
I will even happily go so far as to say that I would pick the dogs life over most if not all of those in the crowd making him fight for their amusement. Any day of the week.
Hypothetical situations that would never transpire, do nothing for your argument. But, OK,tough guy, if I said "For justice, they should just throw Vick into a pit of rabid blood thirsty pitbulls to be ripped to shreads",then we'd be on the same 'side'.
365 days per year. When you said "Any day of the week", in the previous paragraph, I got your point.I'll go so far to assume you also meant 24 hours a day as well.Im impressed.
ABN..
And what kind of message are we sending to our kids? Makes me sick!!!!!!! :mad:
Exactly my thoughts. There are too many atheletes out there to choose from to keep allowing jokers back in. Same goes for elected officials . . . . one time shot, you screw it up you're gone, no questions asked!
Slugger
ABN..
ABN, it is very difficult to read responses in such bright red.
And yes, throw the POS in with the dogs he forced into a life of hell for his own pleasure. I'd vote for it. Any day of the week.
365 days per year.
:D
We cant go back in time and change the ruling made wrt Lewis, or any other potential criminal. The NFL was given yet another chance to man up and do the right thing. Once again they have proven that all they care about is selling jerseys, and as sad as it may be Vick will sell plenty of jerseys in thugville.
HAMMERDROP
07-28-09, 23:09
2889
Then after a couple of years doing this kind of work maybe ...then maybe he can rejoin human beings ! He should never be allowed to make any real money ever ever again and should be forced to donate any he does make to PETA. He will never repay his debt, IMO he is too cruel and sadistic to be allowed back into the public view much less the NFL.
Michael
decodeddiesel
07-28-09, 23:14
ABN, it is very difficult to read responses in such bright red.
And yes, throw the POS in with the dogs he forced into a life of hell for his own pleasure. I'd vote for it. Any day of the week.
365 days per year.
:D
Agreed.
Letting Vick back into the NFL shames each and every single player/coach/professional in the league.
I would say he should die in a fire, but rather I think being ripped apart by dogs would be more fitting.
He knowingly bankrolled the brutal torture and killing of innocent dogs. He shouldn't be out of prison let alone back in the NFL.
Everyone screams bloody murder when some kid kills a cat, yelling "that's the first sign of a sociopath murder!!!!!" What now? This **** was making money off of it. Burn him.
Because the justice system ****s up with worse crimes is if by far the worst, ignorant, pathetic, and sad excuse for having the opinion "let him play" or anything near like it.
What he did was admittedly wrong. He's already served 2 years in Leavenworth and lost over $150mil or more by most estimates. What he did disgusts me to no end but he's paid his debt to society and he's committed to helping to eradicate this crime from this country. Ask yourself, now that he's working with PETA and the National Humane Society what will be better for dogs... For Vick to return to the national spotlight or to be forced to work some construction job as a no name?
As much as the situation sucks it's over and done and if you have been paying attention the amount of convictions for these crimes has skyrocketed. There are now federal laws on the books to enable these people to be prosecuted which didn't exist prior to this situation. Hundreds of other dogs have already been rescued and thousands of charges have been filed with dozens of rings being broken up. Federal agents didn't know the first thing about what to look for are now being trained regularly on what to spot and how to find these people. They made on helluva example out of Vick (He was suspended from the league WELL in advance of any sort of criminal conviction and he's still not being allowed to return even after he's paid his debt to society by serving the longest term ever for this sort of crime and we won't even get into the financial aspect) and as a result the 'sport' of dog fighting has been crippled drastically.
The evil and horrible things he did are in the past and nothing will bring those dogs back but the guy is doing everything he can to repair as much as he can. He's using this situation to try to better himself and I say let him. For those that are saying this is a horse and pony show I say bullshit... 2 years in a federal prison is enough to change ANYONE's outlook on life.
For those that are saying this is a horse and pony show I say bullshit...
And you base this argument on what fact(s)?
2 years in a federal prison is enough to change ANYONE's outlook on life.
Agreed, often for the worse. But sure, maybe if he is afraid of losing more money and doing more time, he will have a genuine revelation.
If he has changed and now somehow really does have remorse, perhaps time will tell. But I have seen no evidence whatsoever at this time, and neither have you.
And you base this argument on what fact(s)?
Facts? Why is it everyone else here can give a purely opinion based response but because I'm playing devil's advocate I somehow am required to post facts? Noted.
Agreed, often for the worse. But sure, maybe if he is afraid of losing more money and doing more time, he will have a genuine revelation.
Regardless of reasons behind it if a bad person turns good and continues this path for the remainder of their life who are we to question the motives?
If he has changed and now somehow really does have remorse, perhaps time will tell. But I have seen no evidence whatsoever at this time, and neither have you.
I haven't? Oh, I guess the fact that ASPCA, The Humane Society & even PETA all supporting him in his efforts to get back into football don't count as any sort of voucher of change considering their pro-dog agenda.
pleaforwar
07-29-09, 02:23
He has paid his debt in accordance with the law. So many of you are saying this sends a bad message to the children, should we send the message that forgiveness is terrible? That if you mess up you will never be accepted again? I don't think so. Any nitwit can see that Vick did not escape from this with a slap on the wrist. He has paid some hard time and people of all ages have witnessed it.
Look, I don't like what he did one bit, but I believe people can change and that he has learned his lesson in this situation.
We cant go back in time and change the ruling made wrt Lewis, or any other potential criminal. The NFL was given yet another chance to man up and do the right thing. Once again they have proven that all they care about is selling jerseys, and as sad as it may be Vick will sell plenty of jerseys in thugville.
Good point. I think the NFL was to permissive of bad conduct off the field for way to long. I also think they have made steps to correct this, example being Pacman Jones.
It is not like Vick walked away unscathed from his crimes. Did Vick receive a punishment consistent with other dog fighting convictions,yes. I know Vick's actions bring a visceral reaction out of people and I understand that. On some level and cases people should be able to rebuild after they pay there debt. The legal system leveled a punishment against him, he served his time. That doesn't mean I will ever respect him personally or care in the slightest if I ever watch him again on the football field. Still the NFL is not part of the penal system. Vick has paid deeply for his crimes. Some people would like to see Vick tarred and feathered but Im not of that opinion.
Vick is a tremendous athlete, but was never a top tier quarterback in my opinion. The public outcry will be so great, I would be pretty surprised if he plays next year, and I tend to think he will never play again. Vick's marketability is nil. The people who would still buy Vick's jersey are probably the same ones who wear OJ Simpson retro jerseys.
Parabellum9x19mm
07-29-09, 02:54
It is not like Vick walked away unscathed from his crimes. Did Vick receive a punishment consistent with other dog fighting convictions,yes.
agreed. if it was up to me, the punishment would have been summary execution, but its not up to me.
I think the justice system worked in this instance. he got the same punishment any normal citizen would have received.
unlike how the "justice" system "worked" with rapper T.I :rolleyes:
his sentence is only a year and day....and the only reason he got that sentence was so that he would be eligible for an early release program.
if any of us were felons and then committed of all of the federal firearms felonies that he was convicted of, we'd be doing 15 years.
but he's a celebrity...so its ok. he'll probably only do around 9 months or so. also it will help him sell more records. it was a pretty good career move.
Because the justice system ****s up with worse crimes is if by far the worst, ignorant, pathetic, and sad excuse for having the opinion "let him play" or anything near like it.
I don't think Vick's actions fall under "worse crimes" category. When I think "worse crimes", I think murder, people in wheelchairs,rape,kidnapping,ect.
Anyone who has seen the HBO documentary on dog fighting, knows how horrible it is. Its not like dog fighting is a new problem. I'd have to do some research, but I tend to think the punishments for crimes of this nature have been light in the past.
I pose the question, what would be a reasonable punishment ? Firing squad ? Walk the gang plank ? Seriously how much time should he have been given ?
What Vick did was screwed up and I think he is human waste. However he did get 23 months for killing animals (something many of us on this board do a lot) Granted he tortured them, but they were still animals.
Agreed there are players who have done much worse and still played. The only way Vick won't play again is if people do not pay to see him. I sure won't, but many probably will. It's a culture problem throughout America.
Z
John_Wayne777
07-29-09, 08:15
I think it would be nice to see as much outrage over murderers, rapists, and child molesters as there has been over Michael Vick.
I like dogs as much as the next guy....but they aren't people. I believe that murderer they hired to do a role in The Wire served less time than Michael Vick. That, ladies and gentlemen, is messed up.
Detective_D
07-29-09, 08:33
He has paid his debt in accordance with the law. So many of you are saying this sends a bad message to the children, should we send the message that forgiveness is terrible? That if you mess up you will never be accepted again? I don't think so. Any nitwit can see that Vick did not escape from this with a slap on the wrist. He has paid some hard time and people of all ages have witnessed it.
Look, I don't like what he did one bit, but I believe people can change and that he has learned his lesson in this situation.
I am with you on this one Plea. This man was sentenced by a court of law to a prison sentence which he completed by all standards of the law. He was released from his team and lost millions of dollars. He has had to work a regular job and will always be considered a convicted felon. If the NFL commisioner wants to reinstate him, then that is on them. Whatever happened to “Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven"
It is not our place to judge this man. He will be judged by God when the time comes. To wish a "fatal injury" upon him and such is foolish. Just my .02. Take it however you want to.
~D
Good point. I think the NFL was to permissive of bad conduct off the field for way to long. I also think they have made steps to correct this, example being Pacman Jones.
It is not like Vick walked away unscathed from his crimes. Did Vick receive a punishment consistent with other dog fighting convictions,yes. I know Vick's actions bring a visceral reaction out of people and I understand that. On some level and cases people should be able to rebuild after they pay there debt. The legal system leveled a punishment against him, he served his time. That doesn't mean I will ever respect him personally or care in the slightest if I ever watch him again on the football field. Still the NFL is not part of the penal system. Vick has paid deeply for his crimes. Some people would like to see Vick tarred and feathered but Im not of that opinion.
Vick is a tremendous athlete, but was never a top tier quarterback in my opinion. The public outcry will be so great, I would be pretty surprised if he plays next year, and I tend to think he will never play again. Vick's marketability is nil. The people who would still buy Vick's jersey are probably the same ones who wear OJ Simpson retro jerseys.
This is a very well spoken argument. It does make one think, and that's not sarcasm.
But then I realize a simple fact. The bigger picture, if you will. A picture that forms when I hear someone say "they were only animals, not people".
If someone were to bring me to one of these fights at gunpoint and and state "OK, you have a choice. It is the dogs or the people. Who lives, who dies?"
It's a simple question with simple options. The 20 rabid "wagering observers" (people), or the 2 dogs.
Think I would need 2 new cages, since the dogs have been tortured their entire lives and would likely have some behavioral problems. But, eventually we would work it out.
:)
I think it would be nice to see as much outrage over murderers, rapists, and child molesters as there has been over Michael Vick.
I like dogs as much as the next guy....but they aren't people. I believe that murderer they hired to do a role in The Wire served less time than Michael Vick. That, ladies and gentlemen, is messed up.
Said it better than I did.
Z
There are players who have done far worse than Vick, that still play ball in the NFL. I think there are others who should have been made an example of rather than Vick. To go after him would be hypocritical.
maybe, but you gotta start somewhere...
Gutshot John
07-29-09, 11:32
Unlike people like Ray Lewis (charged with murder) and others, Michael Vick did the crime, than cowboy'd up and did the time. He took responsibility for his failings, even going to jail before his sentencing.
As a dog lover who was outraged when I first heard the story, I'm satisfied he's learned his lesson about this behavior. I'm inclined to forgive, but not forget.
Let him play if someone will have him.
It's strange how people are somehow attributing honor or decency to a guy for doing exactly what a man is supposed to do. Fess up.
However, everyone seems to forget they had his balls dead to rights when his 2 friends rolled on him. He didn't make the decision to fess up out of soul searching revelation. :rolleyes:
Gutshot John
07-29-09, 11:49
It's strange how people are somehow attributing honor or decency to a guy for doing exactly what a man is supposed to do. Fess up.
However, everyone seems to forget they had his balls dead to rights when his 2 friends rolled on him. He didn't make the decision to fess up out of soul searching revelation. :rolleyes:
What is honor/duty if not a man doing what he's supposed to do? Honor is marked in adversity, honor is shown in failures, not when everything is hunky-dorey.
He has honor, is he more honorable than say a soldier in Afghanistan? No, but the man did his time, let him get on with his life. He's got a lot more honor than some others in pro sports I see who don't even get arrested.
They get people dead to rights all the time (OJ Simpson?) in my experience only a minority of those people do what Vick did.
What is honor/duty if not a man doing what he's supposed to do? Honor is marked in adversity, honor is shown in failures, not when everything is hunky-dorey.
He has honor, is he more honorable than say a soldier in Afghanistan? No, but the man did his time, let him get on with his life. He's got a lot more honor than some others in pro sports I see who don't even get arrested.
They get people dead to rights all the time (OJ Simpson?) in my experience only a minority of those people do what Vick did.
Honor is doing what a man is supposed to do before your balls are on the chopping block. Afterward, and under duress, it holds a little less water.
I'm not advocating castrating the guy, keeping him in prison forever etc. However, I wouldn't hire the guy. Would you?
pleaforwar
07-29-09, 12:04
Honor is doing what a man is supposed to do before your balls are on the chopping block. Afterward, and under duress, it holds a little less water.
I'm not advocating castrating the guy, keeping him in prison etc. However, I wouldn't hire the guy. Would you?
Its the NFL that is thinking about hiring him, not a Doggy Resort Center.
Its the NFL that is thinking about hiring him, not a Doggy Resort Center.
If I owned a McDs I wouldn't hire him. Nor would I an arsonist, car thief, burglarer, drug dealer, or confidence man. Would you?
Arguing with me over our personal philosophical differences is going to be futile. I'm not making a sweeping statement of "I'm going to ban the NFL if they don't ban Vick". I've stated, I wouldn't hire him. What's the problem here?
Its the NFL that is thinking about hiring him, not a Doggy Resort Center.
Your right, and that's much worse.
Let's say the man wins the Super Bowl, or even has a real good year for his team. Then what?
We see kids wearing his jersey and people talking about what a great job he is doing (for whatever city desperate enough to hire him) and what a success story he is. Yet it's really not about that at all, it's really about one thing...money.
Now he is revered by impressionable children again who will be prompted to simply overlook the "old dog fighting thing".
And ZDL is right. Sure, he did his time, but by force only. There is no evidence whatsoever of true redemption. None. And even if he is redeemed, he has a long way to go off the football field to make up for all the suffering he has caused the innocent.
Gutshot John
07-29-09, 12:22
Honor is doing what a man is supposed to do before your balls are on the chopping block. Afterward, and under duress, it holds a little less water.
I'm sure, like any other human being, you've had your balls on the chopping block as well...maybe not criminally, but you've f'd up and I presume you had the "honor" to man up and admit your mistake. Honor is not perfection, honor is making the best of a situation when it goes to hell and admitting your role in those failures.
I'm not advocating castrating the guy, keeping him in prison forever etc. However, I wouldn't hire the guy. Would you?
It depends on the situation. In general I wouldn't hire an ex-con, unless they had owned-up to their crime and someone I trusted vouched for the guy. I've known ex-cons who learned their lesson and proceeded to live honorable lives. They are probably exceptions to the rule but sometimes people deserve a second chance.
NinjaTactics
07-29-09, 12:24
agreed. if it was up to me, the punishment would have been summary execution, but its not up to me.
Can I ask you and everyone else here who has a problem with Michael Vick why exactly?
Is it simply because you have a major attachment to dogs, which in America are looked upon as family pets? In many other countries they are used as food. Many people spend more money on their dogs' (and cats') health at veterinarians than they do their kids' health.
Michael Vick (and most other people in the dog fighting industry) are breeding animals for a specific purpose; to fight. That means they are born and raised with one goal in mind, and if this goal did not exist most of these dogs in question would have never been born.
Should those that raise chickens and cows with one specific goal in mind, to be slaughtered mercilessly, also go to jail?
Should the horse trainer, who breeds a horse that has a medical injury, and then he then kills off accordingly, also go to jail?
Should those that raise mice that are used specifically to feed snakes and other animals also go to jail?
If someone were to bring me to one of these fights at gunpoint and and state "OK, you have a choice. It is the dogs or the people. Who lives, who dies?"
It's a simple question with simple options. The 20 rabid "wagering observers" (people), or the 2 dogs.
Any of you watch boxing? Where we pay men to beat each other to death for our entertainment. Anyone watch MMA? Where we pay men to beat each other until they are unconcious and helpless. No one CHEERS...when you see a devastating knockout?
We LOVE the NFL, but how many former players die in their forties? Fifties? Suffer atleast a dozen concusions? Steve Young and Troy Aikman retired because of those medical conditions.
Ponder this before passing judgment.
Mace
Can I ask you and everyone else here who has a problem with Michael Vick why exactly?
Should those that raise chickens and cows with one specific goal in mind, to be slaughtered mercilessly, also go to jail?
Should the horse trainer, who breeds a horse that has a medical injury, and then he then kills off accordingly, also go to jail?
Should those that raise mice that are used specifically to feed snakes and other animals also go to jail?
Nice try, but you are omitting some very key facts.
None of the above are systematically tortured from birth until death for absolutely no other purpose than illegal "entertainment". Nothing is fed when they die, no living thing benefits in any way.
And all are killed in slow, heinous, brutal ways for amusement.
Jesus, because we like football now we are the essentially the equivalent to spectators at the Colosseum watching mass murder? Give me a fuc*ing break.
The average time served for murder is 10.5 years (this includes all different degrees of course). Vick did almost 2 years for dog fighting (just to compare the sentences). He did his time.
No one can say yet (key word yet) if he has changed or not. He just got out. Let's visit this again in 6 months, or even a year.
Do I think he should be playing this year, no. Guys who get DUIs/substance abuse in the NFL get like 4 game suspensions. Vick's was a bit more serious than those.
It is very interesting to see the feelings on this, they run the full gamut.
p.s. If someone did anything to my dog, ever, I would probably lose it. Once you get a dog they are like family.
I'm sure, like any other human being, you've had your balls on the chopping block as well...maybe not criminally, but you've f'd up and I presume you had the "honor" to man up and admit your mistake. Honor is not perfection, honor is making the best of a situation when it goes to hell and admitting your role in those failures.
Of course, but it hasn't defined my life as the major point people will remember. Also, while I let down those involved, thousands/millions of people weren't running around wearing my jersey. Also, I wasn't on a national stage given such a large privilege. If a LEO were caught doing this, they would be fired and their certificate pulled. FF and EMT as well I assume.
Again, the philosophical differences in defining the word honor are not going to be decided on M4C. Honor would have been fully... "honored" in Vick saying no to bankrolling the fights. Honor might still be intact if he were to bankroll the fight once and say, "shit, that was wrong. A mistake. No more of that". Honor is not, to me:
Lawyer: You're ****ed, vick. Admit it and get less time
Vick: Ok.
It depends on the situation. In general I wouldn't hire an ex-con, unless they had owned-up to their crime and someone I trusted vouched for the guy. I've known ex-cons who learned their lesson and proceeded to live honorable lives. They are probably exceptions to the rule but sometimes people deserve a second chance.
Your qualifier, we haven't acquired yet. The language and explanations that were used prior to his convictions indicated a strong middle finger to the whole idea that what he did was wrong. Granted that was 2 years ago but, I haven't seen anything proving he's changed. Everything he's "doing" has been court ordered if I'm not mistaken.
He's more than welcome to start his second chance somewhere else than a nationally televised stage garnering the same rewards others, who haven't done the things he has, are. There are some scumbags in professional sports, no doubt. The NFL continuing to look the other way is not the answer.
Any of you watch boxing? Where we pay men to beat each other to death for our entertainment. Anyone watch MMA? Where we pay men to beat each other until they are unconcious and helpless. No one CHEERS...when you see a devastating knockout?
We LOVE the NFL, but how many former players die in their forties? Fifties? Suffer atleast a dozen concusions? Steve Young and Troy Aikman retired because of those medical conditions.
Ponder this before passing judgment.
Mace
Humans choose to go into those careers. They weren't bred for it and forced under the threat of drowning, beatings, and electrocution.
Humans choose to go into those careers. They weren't bred for it and forced under the threat of drowning, beatings, and electrocution.
End result is still the same. People die...
NFL? Players die much younger than the average person.
Boxing? Brain damage and or death in the ring.
Nothing we say here will change anyone's mind, the NFL has ruled, and Obama is still President. These are facts, like it or not...
Disclaimer: I didn't vote for BHO...
Mace
End result is still the same. People die...
NFL? Players die much younger than the average person.
Boxing? Brain damage and or death in the ring.
Nothing we say here will change anyone's mind, the NFL has ruled, and Obama is still President. These are facts, like it or not...
Disclaimer: I didn't vote for BHO...
Mace
One isn't the other. Choice vs. Force.
Cascades236
07-29-09, 15:24
Had he pled guilty at his arraignment I might think otherwise of his character... Up until his accomplices rolling on him he insisted he was innocent and let his fans believe so. Then all of a sudden he's taking a plea...
I could care less if he plays again, I just won't be supporting the team that picks him up.
I am with you on this one Plea. This man was sentenced by a court of law to a prison sentence which he completed by all standards of the law. He was released from his team and lost millions of dollars. He has had to work a regular job and will always be considered a convicted felon. If the NFL commisioner wants to reinstate him, then that is on them. Whatever happened to “Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven"
It is not our place to judge this man. He will be judged by God when the time comes. To wish a "fatal injury" upon him and such is foolish. Just my .02. Take it however you want to.
BINGO...lot of morality police here...
Mace
pleaforwar
07-29-09, 15:53
Your right, and that's much worse.
Let's say the man wins the Super Bowl, or even has a real good year for his team. Then what?
We see kids wearing his jersey and people talking about what a great job he is doing (for whatever city desperate enough to hire him) and what a success story he is. Yet it's really not about that at all, it's really about one thing...money.
Now he is revered by impressionable children again who will be prompted to simply overlook the "old dog fighting thing".
And ZDL is right. Sure, he did his time, but by force only. There is no evidence whatsoever of true redemption. None. And even if he is redeemed, he has a long way to go off the football field to make up for all the suffering he has caused the innocent.
Kids will wear his jersey only if parents allow it. That is a poor reflection on the parenting, not on the NFL or the child.
pleaforwar
07-29-09, 15:56
If I owned a McDs I wouldn't hire him. Nor would I an arsonist, car thief, burglarer, drug dealer, or confidence man. Would you?
Arguing with me over our personal philosophical differences is going to be futile. I'm not making a sweeping statement of "I'm going to ban the NFL if they don't ban Vick". I've stated, I wouldn't hire him. What's the problem here?
After counseling with him (which Goodell did), if I came to the conclusion that he has learned from his mistakes and was willing to change his behavior, I would hire him. I was really pissed off when I first heard about his crimes, but I am no PETA activist and I don't think he should be ostracized because of his past.
Another NFL football player, Donte Stallworth, was recently convicted of 2nd degree manslaughter, he struck a pedistrian while driving under the influence. A quick comparison...
Stallworth-
30 day jail sentance(served 24 days)
2 years house arrest
1000 hours community service
8 years probation
Indefinite NFL Suspension
Vick-
23 months federal prison
3 years probation
??? Community Service
Reinstated NFL
Which sentance would you take ? I think Stallworth got off way easier.
Of course he should be reinstated to the NFL. He did his time.
maybe, but you gotta start somewhere...
+1...........
NinjaTactics
07-29-09, 21:38
Nice try, but you are omitting some very key facts.
None of the above are systematically tortured from birth until death for absolutely no other purpose than illegal "entertainment". Nothing is fed when they die, no living thing benefits in any way.
And all are killed in slow, heinous, brutal ways for amusement.
Jesus, because we like football now we are the essentially the equivalent to spectators at the Colosseum watching mass murder? Give me a fuc*ing break.Have you actually seen how chicken and cows are treated that are specifically bred to be slaughtered? Most of them are force fed, live in extremely small spaces or cages "for absolutely no other purpose" than your enjoyment, when you eat them. They are often 1.5-2 TIMES what would be their normal bodyweight if they were fed normally and not injected full of steroids and the like.
Where does killing animals that were specifically bred to be killed equate to mass murder? Does you also equate someone who raises bulls for bullfighting in the rest of the world a mass murderer?
I'm still waiting for the people who have such a large objection to dog fighting to help reconcile the differences with many other animals, which are eventually just slaughtered in one manner or another here in the United States.
Have you actually seen how chicken and cows are treated that are specifically bred to be slaughtered? Most of them are force fed, live in extremely small spaces or cages "for absolutely no other purpose" than your enjoyment, when you eat them. They are often 1.5-2 TIMES what would be their normal bodyweight if they were fed normally and not injected full of steroids and the like.
This is a legitimate point, but not an offsetting argument. Yes, there are flaws in our food production system. Flaws that need addressing, no doubt.
But if you show me a group of slaughterhouse workers entertaining themselves on coerced animal fights, then I will absolutely suggest that they are no better than the animals themselves either. It is a blanket indictment, what goes for the NFL goes for Butch's slaughterhouse in that particular regard.
Worse than the animals they torture for fun, they are. Every single fu*king one.
SloaneRanger
07-29-09, 22:27
I don't believe that the principles here apply only too Vick. For far too long society has placed a disproportionate amount of countenance on giving perpetrators of all types of heinous crimes 'the benefit of the doubt' in terms of them convincing a parole board that they are sufficiently 'reformed' or 'repentent' of their crimes only to be let back into society to Kill, rape and molest children and other innocent citizens or whatever other despicable act is their M.O.
Why would it be any different for Vick?
I tell you why..because the argument that he has paid his debt to society could almost be palatable if he was just "Joe Blow" ditch digger as someone had said and went back to just digging ditches for $10/hr..But this guy made more in a year than 90% of us will make in our lives and took the oppportunity that he had for granted and wanted to be the the "Gangsta Thug playa"...when thousands of talented kids never get a chance to make a decent life for themselves....
Besides anybody who writes a check to their mother for $10,000.00 and writes "Chump Change" in the little reminder box for what it was written for deserves no sympathy from me........
Want to play the ghetto thug gangsta playa...fine but go live in the ghetto...You made the choice...Don't ****ing come crying to me after the fact...
Man, some people sure are jealous. It always comes back around to so and so makes all this money and don't work near as hard as so and so who are making crap. Join Obama's fight to limit evil executive pay since Socialism's so cool. Or start doing whatever the people you're jealous of do so you can make all that bread.:rolleyes:
Bottom line: Vick broke some laws, got caught, went through the legal system, paid his dues. Stop crying, damn. It amazing to see people who at any time could be outlaw gun owners beat up on others.
It amazing to see people who at any time could be outlaw gun owners beat up on others.
A horrendous, baseless argument.
Nothing to do with this scenario whatsoever. Not even a distant relative.
maybe, but you gotta start somewhere...
Thats a good point. Still I think the NFL has essentially condoned bad off the field behavior for along time. It can't be surprised when they aren't able to turn the ship around in a couple years. But yes they do have to start somewhere and it appears as if they have. In Vick's particular case, he spent two years in prison, if that won't correct Vick's action, I doubt a four game suspension will.
pleaforwar
07-30-09, 00:26
This is a legitimate point, but not an offsetting argument. Yes, there are flaws in our food production system. Flaws that need addressing, no doubt.
But if you show me a group of slaughterhouse workers entertaining themselves on coerced animal fights, then I will absolutely suggest that they are no better than the animals themselves either. It is a blanket indictment, what goes for the NFL goes for Butch's slaughterhouse in that particular regard.
Worse than the animals they torture for fun, they are. Every single fu*king one.
There are flaws in our food production system? Do you think that it is tragic that we are on top of the food pyramid? Are you a vegan/vegetarian? Do you believe in animal rights?
Seriously, you're argument is carbon copy with PETA's stance on the issue.
Thats a good point. Still I think the NFL has essentially condoned bad off the field behavior for along time. It can't be surprised when they aren't able to turn the ship around in a couple years. But yes they do have to start somewhere and it appears as if they have. In Vick's particular case, he spent two years in prison, if that won't correct Vick's action, I doubt a four game suspension will.
two years? my, how time flies...
Jesus, because we like football now we are the essentially the equivalent to spectators at the Colosseum watching mass murder? Give me a fuc*ing break.
I hope you see the logical error in this analogy.
There are flaws in our food production system? Do you think that it is tragic that we are on top of the food pyramid? Are you a vegan/vegetarian? Do you believe in animal rights?
Did you think this out before you wrote it? Seriously, even a passing thought, or do you just type things?
I hope you see the logical error in this analogy.
No, but I would certainly honor your explanation.
I based my statement on Mace's comment comparing watching football and boxing to watching dog fighting.
A horrendous, baseless argument.
Nothing to do with this scenario whatsoever. Not even a distant relative.
That was an observation, not an argument. The argument was:
Bottom line: Vick broke some laws, got caught, went through the legal system, paid his dues.
Some people seem to contend that there should be further additional penalties imposed by some power. If no one wants to hire him that's fine but everyone should be given an opportunity to work after they go through the legal system. This isn't in contention when someone wants to work at McDonald's, only when they make big bucks for doing something. You don't see a problem with that?
The legal system is the legal system. Whether I am satisfied all criminals get the sentence they deserve is another thing. You are right that when someone comes out of prison they deserve to be able to make a living. I have no problem with Vick working at McDonald's.
That was an observation, not an argument. The argument was:
Some people seem to contend that there should be further additional penalties imposed by some power. If no one wants to hire him that's fine but everyone should be given an opportunity to work after they go through the legal system. This isn't in contention when someone wants to work at McDonald's, only when they make big bucks for doing something. You don't see a problem with that?
SloaneRanger
07-30-09, 13:12
Man, some people sure are jealous. It always comes back around to so and so makes all this money and don't work near as hard as so and so who are making crap. Join Obama's fight to limit evil executive pay since Socialism's so cool. Or start doing whatever the people you're jealous of do so you can make all that bread.:rolleyes:
Bottom line: Vick broke some laws, got caught, went through the legal system, paid his dues. Stop crying, damn. It amazing to see people who at any time could be outlaw gun owners beat up on others.
I can assure you that my disdain for this ass clown is not from Jealousy. Income wise or anything else. In fact Jealousy never even occured to me at all.
Your logic is not very insightful. It is actually about as base as it comes. Intellectually about on par with "It is!"...Is Not!".."It is!"..."Is Not!"..or .."My daddy can beat up your daddy!"...
I actually have done fairly well for myself in the ten years that I have been in "Corporate" America. In fact funnily enough back in 2007 when I bought my new Range Rover I was at a dealership in Atlanta and had the option to buy Michael Vick's one that he'd traded in. He had autographed it with a silver paint pen in the Glove box. I took the peace of mind of the factory warranty over some gangsta thug's autograph then and I would do it again.
If you are in any doubt as to whether I am full of shit or not, you can find a picture of my Range Rover in post #4 of the "Gear Heads" thread right next to my big block Dodge Challenger.
The_War_Wagon
07-30-09, 13:46
It's ALWAYS about money; to the team that takes him, the ONLY question they'll ask themselves is, "Will he make me MORE money?"
If that's NOT your ethic, than don't watch him, don't buy the products he endorses, and teach your children WHY. But save your breath when it comes to the team owners, cos' you gotta bring more than season ticket chump change to the table, to change THEIR minds...
That's not a right-or-wrong critique, but a 'way-it-IS' critique. :(
SloaneRanger
07-30-09, 14:14
It's ALWAYS about money; to the team that takes him, the ONLY question they'll ask themselves is, "Will he make me MORE money?"
If that's NOT your ethic, than don't watch him, don't buy the products he endorses, and teach your children WHY. But save your breath when it comes to the team owners, cos' you gotta bring more than season ticket chump change to the table, to change THEIR minds...
That's not a right-or-wrong critique, but a 'way-it-IS' critique. :(
Absolutely true.
I just personally dislike the guy on principle. Not because he makes $XX,XXX,XXX per year.
I can't stand the Falcons anyway. Never went to a game once. So they never got a dime from me anyway.
I like the Dolphins. I used to be friendly with Zach Thomas years ago when I lived down there.
Incidently, in light of Vick, Pacman jones and all the other gangsta thugs in the NFL, NBA and MLB now as well as the McGwire Bonds/Rodriguez fiascos...What do you guys think would have happened to old Pete Rose if he's gotten caught now rather that back then...
pleaforwar
07-30-09, 14:15
Did you think this out before you wrote it? Seriously, even a passing thought, or do you just type things?
Can you address the questions rather than throwing out Ad Hominem insults? You said there are issues in our food production, did you not? Care to explain how? Are we as humans too mean to chickens and cows? I'm sorry but it sounds like you are a card carrying PETA member. That isn't meant to insult you, like your attempt to insult me, it just really sounds like you are a little "different" in your reverence for animals.
Another thing-
Did you ever watch guys fight scorpions in the desert? How about camel spiders? My friends used to fight snapping turtles when we were kids, should they be considered scum of the earth? Should they never be able to work again?
How about people that are "entertained" while watching their boa constrictor choke the shit out of a rat? Tarantula and crickets? Where does the moral high ground end?
Please, feel free to surprise me with a mature response.
pleaforwar
07-30-09, 14:19
Absolutely true.
I just personally dislike the guy on principle. Not because he makes $XX,XXX,XXX per year.
I can't stand the Falcons anyway. Never went to a game once. So they never got a dime from me anyway.
I like the Dolphins. I used to be friendly with Zach Thomas years ago when I lived down there.
Incidently, in light of Vick, Pacman jones and all the other gangsta thugs in the NFL, NBA and MLB now as well as the McGwire Bonds/Rodriguez fiascos...What do you guys think would have happened to old Pete Rose if he's gotten caught now rather that back then...
In all honesty, I think there is something going on in the Pete Rose story that the general public does not know about. Think about it, the public perception on Rose has been favorable for years now. I have never met anyone that believes that Rose shouldn't be in the hall of fame. But time and time again the commish rejects the notion. Why would he go against public perception every time?
Pete Rose bet on his team to win. Not drown, beat, and electrocute dogs to make them fight to the death. :rolleyes:
Plea: Your arguments are including comparing natural order to humans enacting torture. You're all over the board with your arguments. So much so, I'm unable to nail down a common point you are trying to make.
Steroids: On the surface. There was a rule, they broke it. Punish them.
You have to have a deeper understanding of the science and history of steroids and the truth to how they became illegal to be able to comment on the larger picture. That is another thread. (holy shit, I can only imagine what is swimming around in some peoples heads after that comment :rolleyes: )
pleaforwar
07-30-09, 14:46
Plea: Your arguments are including comparing natural order to humans enacting torture. You're all over the board with your arguments. So much so, I'm unable to nail down a common point you are trying to make.
My common point is that some members have taken their passion for dogs to such a high value that they are unfairly biased towards Vick. Yes he did terrible things, but to animals, not humans. The fact that some of y'all are as hardline on the issues as PETA shocks me, hence the reason I verbalized it. My turtle-fighting example will hopefully force some to reflect on what they have done in their lives... ants an a magnifying glass, fireworks with frogs, etc. You can't deny that the majority of people have either performed or witnessed animal cruelty in their lifetime.
My common point is that some members have taken their passion for dogs to such a high value that they are unfairly biased towards Vick. Yes he did terrible things, but to animals, not humans. The fact that some of y'all are as hardline on the issues as PETA shocks me, hence the reason I verbalized it. My turtle-fighting example will hopefully force some to reflect on what they have done in their lives... ants an a magnifying glass, fireworks with frogs, etc. You can't deny that the majority of people have either performed or witnessed animal cruelty in their lifetime.
As an immature child did I use a magnifier on ants? An insect that provides no human companionship? An insect that is incapable of saving the life of you or your family. Sure.
As an adult, have I mutilated animals for money? No.
It's not a hard line actually. You are having a problem differentiating between the extreme and the normal. I can't help you there. What I gather from reading your posts is that you are comfortable lumping children killing ants with a magnifying glass in with adults dog fighting for money. I simply can't waste time arguing the lunacy of that mindset.
Was this vick's idea of diversifying his investments? :rolleyes:
People are running up the moral "judge thou not" flag when it really has nothing to do with it. Very few people here, one I think, have admitted that they would hire the guy. And the 1 who did stated he would have to meet with and discern for himself.
I for one, have been watching this Vick story since it happened. His comments prior to his conviction and since have not convinced me in anyway he's changed. He has plenty of time to do so but it hasn't happened yet. Serving time does not a saint make. I stand by the fact, I wouldn't hire him.
Another thing-
Did you ever watch guys fight scorpions in the desert? How about camel spiders? My friends used to fight snapping turtles when we were kids, should they be considered scum of the earth? Should they never be able to work again?
Your hole is getting deeper and deeper. Hope it's cooler down there than it is around here (90+ and very humid :().
How about people that are "entertained" while watching their boa constrictor choke the shit out of a rat? Tarantula and crickets? Where does the moral high ground end?
Again, this is part of the food chain. Controlled perhaps, but still a natural part. And personally I don't enjoy these things any longer. Had piranhas and snakes as a young man, but I'd probably be likely to kill them now before the harmless feeders.
No, no hardcore PETA advocate. Just think outside my little box now days.
Please, feel free to surprise me with a mature response.
Gladly. When you surprise me with a relevant one.
John_Wayne777
07-30-09, 16:21
Gentlemen:
This thread has taken on a personal tone that we just don't want around here. As such, I'm locking it to prevent further degradation of the discourse.
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