View Full Version : Which BUIS has the best Co-witness with Aimpoint?
pleaforwar
07-30-09, 00:46
Gents,
I am curious about which BUIS system out there best co-witnesses with an Aimpoint Comp M4. I want to go with the Magpul system (try to save money when I can), but I am considering other options to. Thanks for any input.
-Dan
What exactly do you mean, "best cowitness"? Do you want lower 1/3 cowitness or absolute cowitness? What mount is the CompM4 in? What is your budget?
pleaforwar
07-30-09, 01:16
Absolute... planned on using the mount provided. I was hoping for opinions that were not budget limited.
I prefer ADM and LaRue mounts to the stock Aimpoint mounts, but that's just me.
The best BUIS out there IMO is the Troy. Do you have a front sight base? You did say "system" so I assume you meant front and rear? And what do you mean by best? Blocks the least amount of view?
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you somehow, but usually your sights are all the same height and you choose your sight's mount for desired co-witness.
They will all co-witness the same. Just make sure to buy an absolute co-witness mount for your optic.
kornbread402
07-30-09, 01:28
I maybe missing something here about the question “it is 0200 here and I can’t find any bad guys”. You’re not going to get really any difference in a sight picture with whatever buis you go with. They will all co witness the same. You can get into fixed or folding and which sight is better made so on so on and so on or like 87gn said you can get into lower 1/3.
pleaforwar
07-30-09, 01:42
Ok, guess I didn't go into detail. I don't want to shell out the $ for a mount, do any BUIS cowitness right out of the box. I'm sorry gents, all I am used to is an EOTECH 512 and the Magpul BUIS, so my knowledge on the matter is rather limited.
For a "permanent" CQB fixture, I like LaRue: http://stores.homestead.com/Laruetactical/Detail.bok?no=29
For fold down, under a scope, like others, Troy.
The lower 1/3 cowitness is what you want if your want both up at the same time.
pleaforwar
07-30-09, 01:58
For a "permanent" CQB fixture, I like LaRue: http://stores.homestead.com/Laruetactical/Detail.bok?no=29
For fold down, under a scope, like others, Troy.
The lower 1/3 cowitness is what you want if your want both up at the same time.
Thanks for the suggestion, too bad I am a full-time student at the moment and can't get Larue until I enter a new tax bracket :p
Why would I want the lower 1/3 cowitness if I am running both at the same time?
Thanks,
Dan
field of vision - a higher mount and ability to move your head more readily around gives you more flexibility with your red-dot sight, especially with fluid situations, body armor, barriers, bad postionss, etc. Having your BUIS in the lower 1/3 keeps that natural gravitation of your eyes away unless you have a problem. The irons are not making your FOV cluttered nor out of the way if you need them. A better balance and less rigidity.
meisterhau
07-30-09, 08:19
We don't know what system you are running. This post will probably read on a more basic level than you need, but I don't intend any condescending or simplistic tone. Please don't take it that way... I'm just thinking things through and trying to help even without some important facts.
I'm going to make two assumptions. First, you have a flat-top, not a fixed carry handle. Second, you do NOT have a funky rail like the CASV installed, which raises your rails across the top of your upper receiver, which can do funky things to how things line up.
IF you have a front sight post, obviously you have a front sight already, and will only need a rear. If not, you need both. You know this - like I said, I'm typing out my thought process, not calling you stupid. When you mentioned "Magpul system", it hinted that perhaps you need both. There have been some pretty good reviews of Magpul's MBUS sights on this forum. I have not actually run a pair, but I have seen them on another M4, and I thought they were fine. I personally run the TROY sight. To my knowledge, it makes no difference what BUIS you run - they will line up and can be sighted in.
You said you were running the Aimpoint M4. Great sight. The stock mount that comes with it will allow you to set it up as either absolute or lower 1/3 co-witness. If you want absolute, turn the sight over, unbolt the mount, take out the spacer, and bolt the mount back on using the shorter bolts that were included. If you want lower 1/3, it will be set up that way straight out of the box.
Sight in your irons, put your M4 sight on, and sight it in separately. Makes no difference what BUIS you are running - they'll co-witness.
The nature of the Aimpoint sights is such that where the dot is, the bullet goes. That's the beauty of the parallax-free design. You don't have to line up the irons and the red dot to be accurate. THAT is the reason people are suggesting lower 1/3 co-witness - so you can rapidly acquire a target accurately through your sight while looking over your iron sights. You have more clear glass to see through - especially if you have a fixed front sight or fixed both sights. Think of it this way - you have a great view from a big picture window - why cover half the window with a couch? You will rely on your red dot independently much more than your irons, or you're sacrificing the benefit of it.
Bottom line - you have a kick-ass Aimpoint. You're installing back up sights as a redundant, back-up system. It doesn't really matter what you use, as long as they're quality parts. The Magpul MBUS set is pretty inexpensive, folds out of the way, seems to be reliable based on others' reviews... it will probably be a good solution for you, especially if you need both front and rear, and you're trying to keep cost down.
pleaforwar
07-30-09, 14:23
We don't know what system you are running. This post will probably read on a more basic level than you need, but I don't intend any condescending or simplistic tone. Please don't take it that way... I'm just thinking things through and trying to help even without some important facts.
I'm going to make two assumptions. First, you have a flat-top, not a fixed carry handle. Second, you do NOT have a funky rail like the CASV installed, which raises your rails across the top of your upper receiver, which can do funky things to how things line up.
IF you have a front sight post, obviously you have a front sight already, and will only need a rear. If not, you need both. You know this - like I said, I'm typing out my thought process, not calling you stupid. When you mentioned "Magpul system", it hinted that perhaps you need both. There have been some pretty good reviews of Magpul's MBUS sights on this forum. I have not actually run a pair, but I have seen them on another M4, and I thought they were fine. I personally run the TROY sight. To my knowledge, it makes no difference what BUIS you run - they will line up and can be sighted in.
You said you were running the Aimpoint M4. Great sight. The stock mount that comes with it will allow you to set it up as either absolute or lower 1/3 co-witness. If you want absolute, turn the sight over, unbolt the mount, take out the spacer, and bolt the mount back on using the shorter bolts that were included. If you want lower 1/3, it will be set up that way straight out of the box.
Sight in your irons, put your M4 sight on, and sight it in separately. Makes no difference what BUIS you are running - they'll co-witness.
The nature of the Aimpoint sights is such that where the dot is, the bullet goes. That's the beauty of the parallax-free design. You don't have to line up the irons and the red dot to be accurate. THAT is the reason people are suggesting lower 1/3 co-witness - so you can rapidly acquire a target accurately through your sight while looking over your iron sights. You have more clear glass to see through - especially if you have a fixed front sight or fixed both sights. Think of it this way - you have a great view from a big picture window - why cover half the window with a couch? You will rely on your red dot independently much more than your irons, or you're sacrificing the benefit of it.
Bottom line - you have a kick-ass Aimpoint. You're installing back up sights as a redundant, back-up system. It doesn't really matter what you use, as long as they're quality parts. The Magpul MBUS set is pretty inexpensive, folds out of the way, seems to be reliable based on others' reviews... it will probably be a good solution for you, especially if you need both front and rear, and you're trying to keep cost down.
Than you for the response, you answered all my questions.
CaptainDooley
07-30-09, 15:28
I'm not running a RDS now, so maybe this will be clear once I buy one - but if the stock Aimpoint mount is so versatile, why does nearly everyone buy a mount for it?
meisterhau
07-30-09, 15:45
I'm not running a RDS now, so maybe this will be clear once I buy one - but if the stock Aimpoint mount is so versatile, why does nearly everyone buy a mount for it?
I can't answer for everyone, just for me.
I didn't like the way the factory mount integrated with the rail - a big knob sticking out the side. (I went with the M4s over the M4 due to the lower profile of the battery box, too.) I personally wanted to go with a lever-release quick-disconnect. I did some research and asked some questions here, and my choice was the BOBRO mount. I feel it's more stable, and has proven to be very close to dead-on after being removed and reattached a few times (not that I plan on doing so again, but tested it to see - the sight stays put). I hope to never have two things happen... first, I hope never to have to use the carbine in a defensive/offensive role, and I hope nothing ever happens to the RDS. IF, however, both happen at once, I can ditch the sight completely in a heartbeat, and go back to irons.
Does that mean that the factory mount sucks? No... lots of people run them that way, and seem to be fine. In fact, my wife is contemplating some form of Aimpoint or other (M4 vs. T1), and very well may stick with the factory mount - but she's not as active a shooter nor is she as tactically minded/concerned as I am.
EDIT TO ADD:
The factory mount for the M4 or M4s is actually 2 parts - the mount itself, and a spacer piece. It comes from the factory with the spacer installed. Also included is a pair of shorter screws in case you want to remove the spacer. The BOBRO mount I used only replaced the factory mount portion. I still used the spacer and the long screws, with a little drop of rockset threadlocker.
meisterhau
07-30-09, 15:47
Than you for the response, you answered all my questions.
You're most welcome. Glad that was helpful.
We don't know what system you are running. This post will probably read on a more basic level than you need, but I don't intend any condescending or simplistic tone. Please don't take it that way... I'm just thinking things through and trying to help even without some important facts.
I'm going to make two assumptions. First, you have a flat-top, not a fixed carry handle. Second, you do NOT have a funky rail like the CASV installed, which raises your rails across the top of your upper receiver, which can do funky things to how things line up.
IF you have a front sight post, obviously you have a front sight already, and will only need a rear. If not, you need both. You know this - like I said, I'm typing out my thought process, not calling you stupid. When you mentioned "Magpul system", it hinted that perhaps you need both. There have been some pretty good reviews of Magpul's MBUS sights on this forum. I have not actually run a pair, but I have seen them on another M4, and I thought they were fine. I personally run the TROY sight. To my knowledge, it makes no difference what BUIS you run - they will line up and can be sighted in.
You said you were running the Aimpoint M4. Great sight. The stock mount that comes with it will allow you to set it up as either absolute or lower 1/3 co-witness. If you want absolute, turn the sight over, unbolt the mount, take out the spacer, and bolt the mount back on using the shorter bolts that were included. If you want lower 1/3, it will be set up that way straight out of the box.
Sight in your irons, put your M4 sight on, and sight it in separately. Makes no difference what BUIS you are running - they'll co-witness.
The nature of the Aimpoint sights is such that where the dot is, the bullet goes. That's the beauty of the parallax-free design. You don't have to line up the irons and the red dot to be accurate. THAT is the reason people are suggesting lower 1/3 co-witness - so you can rapidly acquire a target accurately through your sight while looking over your iron sights. You have more clear glass to see through - especially if you have a fixed front sight or fixed both sights. Think of it this way - you have a great view from a big picture window - why cover half the window with a couch? You will rely on your red dot independently much more than your irons, or you're sacrificing the benefit of it.
Bottom line - you have a kick-ass Aimpoint. You're installing back up sights as a redundant, back-up system. It doesn't really matter what you use, as long as they're quality parts. The Magpul MBUS set is pretty inexpensive, folds out of the way, seems to be reliable based on others' reviews... it will probably be a good solution for you, especially if you need both front and rear, and you're trying to keep cost down.
I have the CASV and love it, I run the CASV with an AIMPOINT and a ARMS mount and get a 1/3 cowitness without having to buy a tall mount for the AIMPOINT, and the AIMPOINT dont look like a satelite sitting on top of the rifle. In my opinion the CASV is the perfect setup. I am also using the TROY rear flip up site and everything lines up great. Also with both eyes open looking through my AIMPOINT i dont even notice the front site. So i wouldnt knock the CASV. VLTOR makes great products. The CASV also gives you a freefloat barrell. The CASV system was designed by the navy seals so i dont think its a funky rail system.
meisterhau
07-30-09, 23:03
I have the CASV and love it, I run the CASV with an AIMPOINT and a ARMS mount and get a 1/3 cowitness without having to buy a tall mount for the AIMPOINT, and the AIMPOINT dont look like a satelite sitting on top of the rifle. In my opinion the CASV is the perfect setup. I am also using the TROY rear flip up site and everything lines up great. Also with both eyes open looking through my AIMPOINT i dont even notice the front site. So i wouldnt knock the CASV. VLTOR makes great products. The CASV also gives you a freefloat barrell. The CASV system was designed by the navy seals so i dont think its a funky rail system.
Easy, bro... no need to get your knickers in a bunch. I'm not knocking the CASV. I was just saying that the CASV does change the dynamic of the upper rail by raising the whole section except where the BUIS goes... so my advice to the poster wouldn't necessarily work.
Plus... it was designed by the Navy SEALS...
Thomas M-4
07-31-09, 00:14
Larue LT-103 buis & Larue m-4 lower 1/3 cowitness mount.
guys
im sorry.. im italian and my english is not so good..
what is a lower 1/3 co-witness and what is the absolute co-witness??
i have this compM4s installed on my bushmaster, i used a larue mont to go with the red dot a bit over the front sight...
is this a good solution? or i have to stay lower with the aimpoint to have best and rapid aim?
ciao
andy
http://img380.imageshack.us/img380/5355/p1040640.jpg (http://img380.imageshack.us/i/p1040640.jpg/)
Looks like you have a lower 1/3. Which is quicker depends on which works best for you.
guys
im sorry.. im italian and my english is not so good..
what is a lower 1/3 co-witness and what is the absolute co-witness??
Lower 1/3 co-witness (which is what your setup provides) just refers to where your irons will appear in the field-of-view when looking through your optic (in the lower third of your glass), as opposed to "absolute co-witness" wherein your irons will be in the middle of your optic's field-of-view.
the 1/3 is my preferred setup, and seems to be the more popular of the two - your current setup allows you a less cluttered view when looking through your optic, but still allows you to use the irons if necessary - I personally wouldn't change a thing.
spamsammich
07-31-09, 11:59
Plus... it was designed by the Navy SEALS...
Where do people get this shit?
ok thanks for the info guys
if i want to use the aimpoint 3x magnifier, wich mount i have to buy?
militarymoron
07-31-09, 13:13
The CASV system was designed by the navy seals.
um. no.
Where do people get this shit?
I was just quoting Mr. Roadking. To be fair, VLTOR's site says that in the description. I think it's completely BS. Just another stupid marketing scheme...
militarymoron
07-31-09, 13:47
I was just quoting Mr. Roadking. To be fair, VLTOR's site says that in the description.
yup - i know you were quoting mr roadking. can you point out where it says 'Navy SEALS' on vltor's website? i must have missed that.
yup - i know you were quoting mr roadking. can you point out where it says 'Navy SEALS' on vltor's website? i must have missed that.
My fault MM, it just says US Navy. I misquoted the site. It's in the last part of the first paragraph here (http://www.vltor.com/casv.htm).
Edit: Roadking's BS statement got jumbled in my head, he must have assumed it was for the SEALs, stupid Internet statements...
militarymoron
07-31-09, 15:23
ventedda - no worries. it's funny how one thing leads to another though :)
roadking actually said that it was designed BY the SEALS, not just designed FOR them.
anyways, it was Navy EOD down in coronado that it was designed for; EODMU-3 at least has them.
pleaforwar
07-31-09, 15:42
Wait.... these guys designed the CASV??? :confused:
http://i43.tower.com/images/mm113411832/navy-seals-charlie-sheen-blu-ray-cover-art.jpg
:D:D:D
um. no.
It was desined for the navy seals. I think you watch to many movies.
spamsammich
07-31-09, 16:11
ventedda - no worries. it's funny how one thing leads to another though :)
roadking actually said that it was designed BY the SEALS, not just designed FOR them.
anyways, it was Navy EOD down in coronado that it was designed for; EODMU-3 at least has them.
Roadking, MM has the correct answer.
militarymoron
07-31-09, 16:47
It was desined for the navy seals. I think you watch to many movies.
why the personal remark? and why are you convinced that it was designed for the SEALs?
why the personal remark? and why are you convinced that it was designed for the SEALs?
If you look at the link above by Vendetta it will tell you that.
Well, not to get into the personal remarks, but MM would know what he's talking about and Roadking hasn't had the greatest track record of posts as far as accuracy goes in my book.
PRGGodfather
07-31-09, 17:06
Uh, no it doesn't.
Made for the US Navy, but SeALs are mentioned nowhere.
Well, not to get into the personal remarks, but MM would know what he's talking about and Roadking hasn't had the greatest track record of posts as far as accuracy goes in my book.
Why are you being a smart a**
I wasn't being a smart ass, I just made my original post because saying it was designed for/by the SEALs was non-sense. My previous post was because I have read many threads where you have asked questions about products, but at the same time posting in other threads about how one is much better than others and which one you would prefer, information you most likely learned in the thread you started asking similar questions. Simple facts, the link also says nothing about the SEALs, it does say it was under contract with the US Navy though, SEALs was an assumption unless you had a link to back up the SEALs claim.
I wasn't being a smart ass, I just made my original post because saying it was designed for/by the SEALs was non-sense. My previous post was because I have read many threads where you have asked questions about products, but at the same time posting in other threads about how one is much better than others and which one you would prefer, information you most likely learned in the thread you started asking similar questions. Simple facts, the link also says nothing about the SEALs, it does say it was under contract with the US Navy though, SEALs was an assumption unless you had a link to back up the SEALs claim.
I havent posted on this thread for months, I learned to sit back and listen and learn and speek only from experience, I do have experience in the CASV-EL because i have one on my M4 and read alot about them before spending the money on buying one. I am only speeking for what i have learned and have had experience with. Again I do not post on this site anymore unless i have hands on experience. As far as seals i did read somewere it was desined for the seals cant remember were, If i find it i will be sure to post it.
Jay Cunningham
07-31-09, 17:48
ROADKING, please check your PMs.
militarymoron
07-31-09, 18:57
ok fellas - let's cut out the personal comments/remarks. everyone makes mistakes or gets the facts wrong sometimes - i do as well. there are times when we earnestly believe something to be true, that doesn't end up as such.
there's no need to argue about easily verifiable facts - this isn't based on personal opinion where there's a lot of room for discussion.
i'll be the first to admit that i don't always know what i'm talking about, but i'll ask someone who does, who's a reliable source. the CASV was designed for west coast Navy EOD, not for the SEALs, and this was from the horse's mouth, so to speak. west coast Navy EOD is on the same base as the SEALs on tarawa road, so it's not unexpected that some CASVs found their way onto SEAL weapons. that doesn't mean that they were originally designed for the SEALs.
if you have heard or read information to the contrary, unless it's first hand from Vltor or the person in charge of purchasing equipment for the west coast EOD or SEAL teams, i'd consider it suspect.
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