I used to be reasonably pleased with PayPal...

[JSantoro]

...up until about 2 years ago. From my standpoint, they have terrible security, as the unauthorized purchases made using my account 3 times in 2 years would bear out, and the validation process is hinky. Why would they need to take money, no matter hoe small the amount, to confirm your address or any other info?

I will be cancelling my account there, once the most recent dispute is resolved, anyway. The supposed convenience of it is no offset to the other headaches. Then, I come across this: http://www.blackfive.net/main/2009/07/antigun-paypal-shuts-down-soldiers-angels-contributions.html#comments

I have less of an issue with whatever anti-gun-sales policy they may have than I do the fact that they're willing to vigorously wave a technicality over an auction (not a gun sale) for the purposes of dicking around with a wounded veterans organization. It's a business and they can run with whatever unresponsive, shoddy management style they please, but that tears it for me. Online purchasing convenience is no reason to continue any association with an entity that is both callous in the execution of its policies while simultaneously being sloppy with the information security with its customers.

Hello, Google Checkout.

[Outlander Systems]

eBay is equally as pathetic.

I've noticed that feebay has done nothing but go into decline over the past few years. What was once an exciting and new online prospect for business and rare finds now has descended into nothing more than a shadow of its former self.

PayPal and eBay royally suck. Nothing sold can be trusted, the fees are obscene, and the Rules&Regs are like something out of Congress. It's unreal.

The irony is, that they're both collectively shooting themselves in the foot. If I didn't know better, I'd think they were deliberately pushing the "suck" button, with a rapidity matched only by Speedy Gonzales.

[JSantoro]

There's a correlation, since EBay picked up PayPal sometime around 2002. I actually didn't know that until today, and it explains a lot in my view.

EBay has always been positively riddled with douchiness, to me, so I've always limited myself to buying software on the cheap, using the Buy It Now function (after making triple-sure that it's the software and not just the empty box in which the software was comercially marketed).

In this instance, I'm about as close to outrage as I really ever get over things I'm not directly involved in. PayPal suspends service based on ticket sales for an auction meant to raise funds that will benefit of our wounded warriors. It doesn't take a legal giant to comprehend that selling tickets to an auction for a gun is a bit removed from participating in a gun sale, much less that shutting down the charity's account impacted their ENTIRE donation intake from other ongoing fundraiser efforts.

Maybe not eat-a-baby despicable, but enough to hope that they get herpes in their eyes.

[rickrock305]

I absolutely despise paypal. They really screwed me over in a dispute

[Buckshot TX]

If you're pleased w/ Paypal, you're either incredibly lucky or just not paying attention.

[Artos]

eBay is equally as pathetic.

I've noticed that feebay has done nothing but go into decline over the past few years. What was once an exciting and new online prospect for business and rare finds now has descended into nothing more than a shadow of its former self.

PayPal and eBay royally suck. Nothing sold can be trusted, the fees are obscene, and the Rules&Regs are like something out of Congress. It's unreal.



...what he said. No gun lover should support or use these services.

[rickrock305]

yea, i've stopped using Ebay altogether, too many scammers.


so what are the alternatives to Paypal? i do a lot of business through the internet and that seems to be the easiest and most widely used service to transfer money. I'm a bit tired of getting socked with fees and would like to support a more reputable service.

[chadbag]

PayPal is an unethical bunch of douchebags. There are plenty of anti-paypal sites out there that have stories from people (first person stories with documentation some times) where PayPal closed their account, froze all their funds, and sometimes sucked out their bank account. And then would not talk to the people to resolve whatever the "problem" was.

They closed my account due to having "so-called" hi-capacity magazines on my website even though they could not show me any transaction that was done through them for hi capacity magazines, but I have another one that I only use to buy things from people who only take Paypal. I ONLY fund it with my AMEX and keep no money in the bank account associated with it. If there is a dispute, then I go immediately to AMEX and bypass the PayPal dispute process since that is stacked against you.

PayPal sucks. Stay away. If you do use Paypal to accept money, always immediately take the money out of the account into a bank account and then empty that bank account. My CU lets me have multiple checking accounts (multiple checking shares on the CU account) and I have a second one that is empty and used of PP

[canucklehead]

Don't know if you guys have it in the states, but in Canada, almost ALL I use for online buying (well, between individuals anyway) is EMT - email money transfer. Cost is $1.50 per, and it takes money right out of your account and into someone elses. Secure, safe, and instant!

[chadbag]

Don't know if you guys have it in the states, but in Canada, almost ALL I use for online buying (well, between individuals anyway) is EMT - email money transfer. Cost is $1.50 per, and it takes money right out of your account and into someone elses. Secure, safe, and instant!

Anything that takes money right out of your account electronically is suspect.

[kmrtnsn]

Actually, their policy when viewed in light of our litigious society and the liability issues in "facilitating" a transfer of a firearm, especially across State lines, it makes a lot of sense.

PayPal Acceptable Use Policy
FIREARMS

You may not use PayPal in the purchase or sale of any firearm unless the seller has been expressly approved by PayPal as detailed below. This includes all rifles, shotguns, and handguns, whether for use in sporting, as collectibles, or curio and relic (C&R) firearms, and regardless of their present working order. Furthermore, PayPal defines "firearm" consistent with the U.S. Code and, as such, prohibits frames, receivers, or any other serialized firearm components. For more information, please refer to U.S. Code Title 18, Section 921


Exception for Imitation and Non-Powder Guns

PayPal permits the use of its services in the sale of certain properly-conforming replica (imitation) guns, paintball guns, blank guns, and "air-soft" guns. These items must display all markings required by law, must not be able to be readily converted to shoot a lethal projectile, and blank ammunition must not be included in the sale. In addition, as no one under the age of 18 is permitted to use the PayPal Service, regardless of the jurisdiction, under no circumstances shall the use of PayPal be permitted by persons under the age of 18 for the purchase or sale of any gun, including replica (imitation) guns, paintball guns, blank guns and "air-soft" guns. For more information regarding regulations applicable to the sale of imitation firearms, please refer to U.S. Code Title 15, Section 5001. The sale of imitation guns may be regulated differently outside the U.S., and international buyers and sellers must abide by these laws accordingly.


FIREARM PARTS AND ACCESSORIES

You may not use PayPal to purchase or sell any firearm receivers or frames, components and parts of receivers and frames, or "cut" or "80%" receivers. PayPal also does not permit assault weapon-related parts and accessories, firearm silencers, and kits designed to convert a firearm to have automatic firing capability. This includes the sale of any parts or accessories prohibited for sale by the National Firearms Act or other federal or state law, including items related to short-barreled shotguns or short-barreled rifles, fully automatic weapons, large-capacity magazines, multi-burst trigger activators and camouflaging firearm containers.

For more information about the National Firearms Act (NFA) and its requirements, please refer to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms website.


AMMUNITION

You may not use PayPal to buy or sell high-capacity magazines (those which hold more than 10 rounds), ammunition with propellant (e.g., gunpowder), or blank ammunition unless the seller has been expressly approved by PayPal as detailed below. The term "ammunition" means ammunition or cartridge cases, primers, bullets, or propellant powder designed for use in any firearm.


DESTRUCTIVE DEVICES

You may not use PayPal in the purchase or sale of any explosive, incendiary, or poison gas bomb, grenade, grenade launcher attachment, rocket, missile, mine or similar device. Examples: Molotov cocktails, anti-tank guns (over caliber .50), bazookas, and mortars.


MILITARIA AND ORDNANCE

PayPal prohibits the use of its services in the purchase or sale of equipment or supplies issued to and formerly used by United States Armed Forces that have not been disposed of in accordance with Department of Defense demilitarization policies. Sales of such items may constitute violations of federal law.

Furthermore, you may not use PayPal in conjunction with the sale of ordnance (military weaponry, ammunition, and related parts) unless you can provide official documentation from the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) stating that the item is unserviceable or demilitarized. Contact your local ATF office for more details on obtaining such documentation.


WEAPONS

You may not use PayPal in the sale of certain hand weapons that are illegal according to federal or state laws including: nunchaku; brass or other metal knuckles; leaded canes/staffs/crutches/sticks; zip guns; shurikens/ throwing stars; hand grenades or metal replica hand grenades; and billyclubs/batons, sandclubs, sandbags, or slingshots (also known as saps or blackjacks). For any other hand weapons, sellers must make certain that the weapon is legal in all countries in which it will be available for purchase.


STUN GUNS

You may only use PayPal to sell stun guns to the extent permissible by law. Sellers are responsible for reviewing the laws in their location and the location of the buyer and ensuring that sales are legal in both locations before completing such transactions.


KNIVES

In general, you may use PayPal in the legal sale of knives, subject to the following exceptions:
Switchblade Knives.
You may not use PayPal in the sale of switchblade knives. A switchblade knife is defined as any knife that resembles a pocketknife with a blade that can be released automatically or by use of a trigger. Other names for switchblades include spring-blade knife, snap-blade knife, gravity knife, and butterfly knife.


Disguised Knives.
You may not use PayPal in the sale of knives disguised to look like a harmless item. This includes, but is not limited to: belt buckle knives, cane swords, shobi-zue, lipstick case knives, air gauge knives, and writing pen knives.
In addition, as no one under the age of 18 is permitted to use the PayPal service, regardless of the jurisdiction, under no circumstances shall the use of PayPal be permitted by persons under the age of 18.

PRE-APPROVED MERCHANTS
You may not use PayPal in the purchase or sale of firearms or ammunition unless the seller has received prior approval from PayPal. PayPal reserves the right, at its sole discretion, to permit its payment services to be used for the legal purchase and sale of certain firearms and ammunition regulated by this policy. Approval to use PayPal for the sale of certain firearms or ammunition will only be permitted after a thorough review of the procedures and controls the seller has in place in order to ensure transactions and shipments are conducted in compliance with all applicable laws and regulations.

If you or your business requires approval to engage in the sale of firearms or ammunition in accordance with this policy, please send your contact information and a brief summary of your business to:compliance@paypal.com.

[Artos]

Actually, their policy when viewed in light of our litigious society and the liability issues in "facilitating" a transfer of a firearm, especially across State lines, it makes a lot of sense.



this is bs.....all the other wire transfer, cc companies and certifed funds could use the same excuse and we would have no gunbroker, etc. How would you feel if U.S. Postal Money Orders were no longer legit for the same products??

They are simply a left coast / anti gun bunch of ding-dongs. Check w/ nri-ila. Ownership is known to donate and support anti gun causes and politicians.


You want to make an excuse to use them, then do so but don't tell me they have a 'society and liability' ligitimate excuse to exempt legal transactions and money transfers....heck, we could get into a sueing them for baseball bats, cars, kitchen knives, etc used in crimes. It's a cop out.

Does ebay & paypal really make life that much more simple that one can condone anti 2nd ammd policies with them and throw other companies who have the same feelings under the bus:rolleyes:

[Jerm]

I tried to buy a BCG yesterday with a PP debit card and it kept being declined for no apparent reason.I wonder if they're flagging certain products?

I'll be closing out my account as soon as some pending transactions are completed.I knew the owner(s) were anti-gun...Didnt know they were so pro-active in their idiocy.

[kmrtnsn]

"They are simply a left coast / anti gun bunch of ding-dongs"

Ummm.........Paypal is Headquartered in Omaha, Nebraska. A Middle-American Red State.

[Artos]

"They are simply a left coast / anti gun bunch of ding-dongs"

Ummm.........Paypal is Headquartered in Omaha, Nebraska. A Middle-American Red State.


...so what, they are owned by ebay on the left coast.

[The_War_Wagon]

I've always refused to use them. They'll be the DEATH of fleabay. :mad:

[kmrtnsn]

Opel, Vauxhall, and Holden are all part of General Motors but that doesn't mean their operations are completely directed by Detroit.

Pay-Pal has liability issues with peer-to-peer firearms, ammo, and some firearms parts transactions. The Federal Government and many states require that these transfers and purchases be conducted face-to-face with or through a licensed dealer. Pay-Pal has neither the time, nor the profit motive to verify that these transactions are conducted legally each and every time one happens nor comply with the different laws regarding these sales in each jurisdiction. Every buy ammo in Chicago or try to have it shipped there?. It is purely more cost effective and bears the least amount of liability to not to handle these types at all and it makes perfect business sense although doesn't fit with all of the conspiracy theories of the web rumormongers.

For example, we live in different States. If I advertised a SBR on this website for sale and you contacted me to buy it, then we made the payments through Pay-Pal and I ship directly it to you via UPS. Then you loan it to a neighbor who goes to the mall and shoots ten people. There are three parties to this transaction with civil liability issues that the family's lawyers are going after, some more than others. Pay-Pal, me, and you. Of the three, who has the deepest pockets for a lawsuit? "But wait!" you say. All Pay-Pal did was move your money to me. No, unlike a wire transfer or credit card transaction where Western Union or the bank or card company act as your agent in the transaction, Pay-Pal serves as an intermediary, making them a party to the transaction. If a party to the transaction then they bite a slice of the liability pie. If this hypothetical case they would have facilitated the transaction. Pay Pal has been under a great deal of federal scrutiny (facilitating Internet gambling, money laundering, the purchases of child pornography, and on and on) over the past few years and has been trying to toe a tight line to avoid addition federal regulation of its business practices, limiting their exposure to firearms related transactions reduces their civil and criminal liability, plain and simple.

[Artos]

you can justify using them anyway you want to km....liability concerns doesn't justify their or ebay's anti gun stance. Ownership is on record with this so I view your point as simply convenient to the management's decisions. To say the type of $$$ exchange or deeper pockets gives them a reason to deny an otherwise legal transaction sticks in my craw.

Many gun enthusiests feel they way you do, but I will not use them & will always avoid financially supporting a company that hinders 2nd ammd rights once I see the light.

[kmrtnsn]

Agree to disagree. I just see the reasons why they do what they do from a different angle.