Why have a Muzzle brake/Comp? [Archive]

Alaskapopo

08-01-09, 03:22

no its annoying because its crazy loud.

and i don't care about getting beat in 3-gun, i look at is as good training, practice and a chance to test out my gear. that is my only motivation. well not my ONLY motivation, it is also a good time.

but i dont run slick set ups, i run my full rig and i shoot from cover or on the move whenever possible.

if you are in-it-to-win-it that is perfectly fine with me, but just realize that not everyone cares about their score.

I respect your opinion but three gun is a game and you will never win a game that runs on the clock being tactical. I am competative and like to win. I look at competition shooting as a skills test not as trianing. For training you should be tactical but there should not be a clock running. For competition do what it takes to win. That just my view. But I respect yours. I am in it to win.
Pat

Dapimpspimp

08-01-09, 05:08

I believe that comps can be used for work, but it depends on the work. If you are stacked up and performing an entry like SWAT team, a comp may not be the best solution due to muzzle blast.

However, if you are a patrol officer on a perimeter, a comp may be a good option. The comp may be applicable to an active shooter scenario too.

If the majority of my shooting scenarios were in close proximity to my team mates, a flash hider would make sense. If I was a soldier where concealment was my concern, a flash hider would be a great choice.

For the average patrolman, I would benefit more from a quicker followup shot that the comp offers. For the average patrolman, shot placement/faster followup shot is more of a factor than the concealment afforded by a flash hider.

Gutshot John

08-01-09, 10:22

There appears to be some confusion about what a FH is for. It has to do with light, not sound.

The reason for choosing a FH is to reduce flash when shooting in low-light. More significantly it IS NOT intended to hide you from others as much as hide the flash from your eyes and obscuring the target.

IMO you don't chose a FH because a comp/brake is less pleasant for others. Tough S#!^. Chose what you shoot best. If loud noises and blast bothers one, than one should perhaps pick a new hobby.

Comps/Brakes allow for quicker follow-up shots and less felt recoil, how is that a bad idea in a shootout? A comp does NOT increase the volume, it just directs it. Besides if you're wearing ear-pro (like you should be) the blast isn't that bad.

Assuming you're free to choose your own setup, a comp will also reduce/direct flash better than nothing. Maybe not as well as a FH, but it does help.

Parabellum9x19mm

08-01-09, 10:55

no, i know very well what FHs and comps/brakes are for. and i know they don't increase report...but it sure as hell seems louder in a bay when that sound is being directed to the left and right.

and yes, i always wear electronic hearing-pro.

maybe i'm the puss because i find them obnoxiously loud. but there's just not too much recoil with a 5.56 anyway, so i dont see much of a point and i'd rather practice recoil management when i run a course rather than shave miliseconds.

to each their own

Gutshot John

08-01-09, 11:14

no, i know very well what FHs and comps/brakes are for

and yes, i always wear electronic hearing-pro.

maybe i'm the puss because i find them obnoxiously loud. but there's just not too much recoil with a 5.56 anyway, so i dont see much of a point and i'd rather practice recoil management when i run a course rather than shave miliseconds.

to each their own

My apologies I genuinely didn't mean to be patronizing. I wasn't saying you specifically didn't know it just seems that many here are making their choice between FH and MB is a negative one. I.E. choosing a FH because of an misperceived drawback of an MB.

I'm arguing one should choose that one that fits one's application better and that there are nice tactical benefits to an MB that outweigh its problems. Of course there may be considerations which make a FH a better choice, like an SBR or suppressor.

Yes you must practice recoil management, but that coupled with a brake is simply more effective. Shaving miliseconds off in competition, also means shaving miliseconds off in combat. A brake makes a very noticeable difference in terms of follow-up shots. I'm not calling you a "puss" I'm just saying that the conventional wisdom on brakes is overbaked. They work in their intended purpose.

That said a brake really isn't that bad for the one using it, but rather the people on either side of the shooter where the blast gets directed so a tactical team may prefer an SBR/suppressor combo but for the individual there is little reason not to use one except to be super nice to class/range mates. I'll buy them a beer later. :cool:

"Be not ashamed to use what is useful." - Bruce Lee (I believe)

Gutshot John

08-01-09, 11:21

IMO the notion of a "Tactical Shooting" association limiting the equipment used is a bad idea, especially for the carbine. It's one of the things that really hacks me off about IDPA. The only requirement should revolve around concealability but this is irrelevant to the M4.

Competition is the test-bed for new equipment and tactics, if something comes along that gives an edge, than it should be adopted once it can be proven reliable.

Tactical Shooting competition should be about evolving shooting/tactics in the real world, not trying to be a sport like IPSC.

USMC03

08-01-09, 11:34

Steve,

Why don't the match directors want to allow muzzle brakes / compensators?

What is the argument against muzzle brakes / comps?

S/F,
Jeff

Steve

08-01-09, 17:42

There not needed
there loud
there for gamers.
they have no tactical advantage not an issued MIL/Leo item to the Ground troops yadda yadda yadda.

all the usual BS jeff.

CC556

08-01-09, 18:57

As has been said, a good brake makes for faster and more accurate followup shots. In both a competitive and combat setting that is definitely a good thing. I have a FSC556 on my rifle, and while it's not the best flash hider out there, or the best brake, it does both jobs surprisingly well, and it's not too horrible on people nearby. I've shot it in the dark a number of times and it has no problem knocking the flash down to the point where it isn't a hinderance to me when I shoot. It also allows me to make faster and more accurate followup shots. I can't imagine why knowledgeable people would disallow something like this. The benefits exist for all types of shooting.

ballistic

08-01-09, 19:05

For some of us in ban states (like MA) we can only have permanently attached comps/brakes or nothing. I prefer a good comp/brake to nothing as it will decrease recoil/muzzle rise and redirects muzzle blast especially when prone. I have a PWS DNTC aggressive comp and it does these things well without being too obnoxious to other shooters on the line at a carbine class.

Killjoy

08-01-09, 19:08

However, if you are a patrol officer on a perimeter, a comp may be a good option. The comp may be applicable to an active shooter scenario too.

If the majority of my shooting scenarios were in close proximity to my team mates, a flash hider would make sense. If I was a soldier where concealment was my concern, a flash hider would be a great choice.

For the average patrolman, I would benefit more from a quicker followup shot that the comp offers. For the average patrolman, shot placement/faster followup shot is more of a factor than the concealment afforded by a flash hider.

The last thing you want in an active shooter scenario is running into a building with a rifle equipped with a comp. There could be dozens of room entries with other officers and they don't need their eyebrows burned off because you are in a small room firing the carbine. The hearing damage alone just firing a carbine in close confines would be bad enough. Stick the with flash suppressor for real combat.

Comps are like raceguns in IPSC or racecars; utterly impractical for real life, but they'll win trophies. Set your own priorities; but be warned one ends up fighting like you train. You won't shoot "tactical" in real life if you shoot like time-obsessed madman in 95% of your training.

RAM Engineer

08-01-09, 19:11

There not needed
there loud
there for gamers.
they have no tactical advantage not an issued MIL/Leo item to the Ground troops yadda yadda yadda.

all the usual BS jeff.

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=12682

M4Guru & Dano's comments prove otherwise.

CC556

08-01-09, 19:32

I shoot my rifle at an indoor rifle league thing pretty often. Since our space is limited we often use the whole width of the bay we have, which means lots of shots are fired right up next to a concrete wall. Now I know different people have different thresholds for what they find acceptable, but I really don't have any problem at all with the blast from my FSC556. Also a couple of weeks ago my fiance was shooting my AR outdoors, and I intentionally stood off to the side of her, pretty close to the brake. It is definitely louder than a rifle with just a FH, but it wasn't at all something that caused discomfort or anything. I also shot at a match down in Oregon a few weeks ago where we engaged various targets out past 200 yards. The brake allowed much faster and more precise followup shots in that situation. Now, if I were in the business of doing room entries with a team I'd probably choose something else to hang off the end of my barrel, but for the majority of shooting situations I find myself in there is a definite and significant advantage to using a brake. It's not the perfect answer for all situations, but it's a great solution for what I do.

Gutshot John

08-01-09, 19:48

The last thing you want in an active shooter scenario is running into a building with a rifle equipped with a comp.

Why is that the last thing you want? Wouldn't getting shot be the last thing you want? I disagree with much of what you stated. I understand the reasons why one might prefer a FH, but to state that a MB is a detriment in a fight is a deeply flawed argument. More significantly the reasons you state hold true for FH as well. This is why suppressors exist.

There could be dozens of room entries with other officers and they don't need their eyebrows burned off because you are in a small room firing the carbine.

Huh? What does being inside or being outside have to do with thermal flash? An A2 birdcage has smaller flash, but being inside or out won't burn any more or less.

The hearing damage alone just firing a carbine in close confines would be bad enough. Stick the with flash suppressor for real combat.

No difference in overall volume. A FH is not a sound suppressor.

Comps are like raceguns in IPSC or racecars; utterly impractical for real life, but they'll win trophies. Set your own priorities; but be warned one ends up fighting like you train. You won't shoot "tactical" in real life if you shoot like time-obsessed madman in 95% of your training.

Funny that a lot of guys use them in real life. Competition aids in shooting faster and more accurately, isn't that the point of a gunfight?

No offense or anything, I just think your arguments illustrate perfectly the mentality that I'm discussing.

Mr.Goodtimes

08-01-09, 19:56

ill take a break over a FH anyday. If using proper ammo the flash is very small. The recoil reduction is huge. I use a surefire break.

If the blast is too bad for you, maybe you should take up basket weaving.

GLOCKMASTER

08-01-09, 19:56

evileyeswatchin

08-01-09, 20:02

Competition guns get comps.
Duty guns get FH's
Just my $.02

Gutshot John

08-01-09, 20:07

I had a MSTN brake on a rifle until last week when I had my eyes opened and I promptly removed the brake. During the Viking Tactics Street Fighter class I discovered what a brake can actually do to you and others around you when shooting in tight quarters. Also when in awkward shooting positions they can blow incrediable amounts of dirt and debris back into your face and others around you. This is amplified ten fold when you have shoot under vehicles. IMHO with the little gain in recoil reduction and muzzle rise the muzzle brake is just not worth having it on a fighting rifle.

YMMV......

Actually dude you raise a very valid point. I remember during 1.5 Kyle showed us the same thing with one of the students guns with a surefire brake, the brake actually digging a hole while shooting close to the ground, throwing up a ton of debris.

That class however I was using a FH and it still happened to me, my gun was covered in dirt/debris after the barricades. So I wasn't sure how big of a difference it was. I understand what you're saying about shooting in/around vehicles.

That said, were you using an SBR? (I'd kill for some of yours :))Could that have contributed to your issues?

GLOCKMASTER

08-01-09, 20:24

Actually dude you raise a very valid point. I remember during 1.5 Kyle showed us the same thing with one of the students guns with a surefire brake, the brake actually digging a hole while shooting close to the ground, throwing up a ton of debris.

That class however I was using a FH and it still happened to me, my gun was covered in dirt/debris after the barricades. So I wasn't sure how big of a difference it was. I understand what you're saying about shooting in/around vehicles.

That said, were you using an SBR? (I'd kill for some of yours :))Could that have contributed to your issues?

I ran the SBR some and it has an AAC Blackout suppressor attachment device on it. The brake was on my S&W VTAC rifle.I ran the SBR mostly when we were close around the vehicles because during the first part of the class I observedd how big of a mistake the brake was especially when using it in tight around vehicles. There was a significant difference between the debris with the brake and the AAC device. There was a significant increase in the debris that was blown in my face as well as others who were shooting around me which can be very distracting and disabling. A FH will throw some debris but not nearly what a brake with throw.

Alaskapopo

08-01-09, 20:39

The last thing you want in an active shooter scenario is running into a building with a rifle equipped with a comp. There could be dozens of room entries with other officers and they don't need their eyebrows burned off because you are in a small room firing the carbine. The hearing damage alone just firing a carbine in close confines would be bad enough. Stick the with flash suppressor for real combat.

Comps are like raceguns in IPSC or racecars; utterly impractical for real life, but they'll win trophies. Set your own priorities; but be warned one ends up fighting like you train. You won't shoot "tactical" in real life if you shoot like time-obsessed madman in 95% of your training.

Again three gun is not training no competition is so don't look at it as such. It is a great skills test that measures your accuracy and speed under the stress of time. Comps can do great when used in conjuction with cans. Basically take the sound suppressor off while on perimeter and slip it on before going inside. That way you have a comp outside where it is very effective and you have a sound suppressor better than any flash hider inside.
Pat

Gutshot John

08-01-09, 20:43

I ran the SBR some and it has an AAC Blackout suppressor attachment device on it. The brake was on my S&W VTAC rifle.I ran the SBR mostly when we were close around the vehicles because during the first part of the class I observedd how big of a mistake the brake was especially when using it in tight around vehicles. There was a significant difference between the debris with the brake and the AAC device. There was a significant increase in the debris that was blown in my face as well as others who were shooting around me which can be very distracting and disabling. A FH will throw some debris but not nearly what a brake with throw.

Cool thanks for the assessment.

Hootiewho

08-02-09, 12:26

I have been pondering this myself recently. I was set on a Surefire 212 suppressor, and then I picked up one of the Triple Tap Brakes to see what the hype was about. It is insanely expensive, no doubt; but the more I run it, the more I like it. I run it on a 11.5" SBR, and it is not as bad to me as some of the other brakes on the market. It has been said the Triple Tap does a good job in situations like Jeff described, not blowing debris back onto the shooter and I run it through a informal test myself. Shooting in sand and dirt, under a vehicle in modified prone positions it really is not that bad. Really no worse than an A2 flash hider or the B.E. Meyers Flash hider. The blast is more than the flash hider, but to me not too bad. I know the NT4 is not the best can on the market as far as POI shift and weight, but I am seriously considering it to compliment this brake. Hell it is heavy, but it is not far off from some of the Gemtech offerings and it is a proven design.

It spoils you to be able to let loose with a NSR from 25 yards as fast as you can squeeze the trigger and the dot barely even moves. All shots cover an area smaller than the side of your fist. I cannot do this with a flash hider, I know I've tried.

rob_s

08-02-09, 13:14

for the record, we don't prohibit brakes, I just won't personally run shooters with them. If there's another SO to run them then they get to shoot. To my knowledge nobody has ever been unable to find an SO that will run them. But, I try not to run ANY shooters anymore as trying to run the match, and SO, and actually shoot is just too much.

On topic, we have more than a few shooters that run brakes. Frankly, I have yet to see the point. Several of our top shooters use them, but they would finish at the top of the heap without them too. I'm one of our better placing shooters and I don't use one. We're not running IPSC 3-gun though so our shoots are different. We also have a lot of shooters using brakes that couldn't get out of the bottom 3rd of the standings if they were shooting airsoft guns, so I don't know what they think they're accomplishing with the brake.

I've seen a LOT of shooters buy gear, parts, guns, and equipment that were truthfully well beyond their abilities. I've gone to IPSC pistol matches and been told "you're doing it wrong" by guys that finished below me in the standings. I find this unbelievably amusing. Years ago I played a lot of competitive pool and won a lot of money from guys using sticks that cost 10x+ what mine cost. I wouldn't bother with something like a brake until I got to a point where I thought it was somehow holding me back and making the difference between winning and not.

My personal preference is for a FH over a brake. I've shot in shoot-house stages with both (FDCC, 3-year anniversary match, FAL with a brake, the SO ran from the shoothouse covering his ears over his hearing protection after I engaged the first target) and prefer the FH. Shooting my 11.5" gun with Ops muzzlebreak suppressor mount and full-power ammo like the BH 75 grain is literally painful to the shooter to the point of being distracting.

Killjoy

08-02-09, 13:40

Huh? What does being inside or being outside have to do with thermal flash? An A2 birdcage has smaller flash, but being inside or out won't burn any more or less.

Because a birdcage spreads the blast in more directions, and comp directs it in fewer directions. Some others here have commented that leaning around cover, moving in close confines, one doesn't have the luxury of assuming a perfect range stance and the comp can work to your detriment. When doing these hasty positions, you can direct your muzzle blast into the face of someone close to you a lot easier with a comp. Having fired with people in close confines using comps during an active shooter instructor class at Sig, I don't want to repeat the experience. Additionally, when moving with a team into building during an active shooter response, one of your few advantages could be numbers (most active shooters work alone). What good is it to use your super-duper comp so your barrel remains rock steady, when your enormous blast could be throwing off the aim of the person to the left and right of you. Just saying....

No difference in overall volume. A FH is not a sound suppressor.

I know that. I said the potential hearing loss is bad enough, whatever you use. There's no need to add the discomfort of firing in close quarters with a muzzle comp blasting in your face.

As far as sound suppressors go, they can be great for firing indoors, but one campus department I've worked with uses them, and they dislike the length they add to their carbines. The chief bought regular 16" inch carbines and with the suppressors they carbines run about 21" inches. Its one thing to equip your own super guns, but try working within the confines of a state or city run logistical system where the person that knows the best doesn't have final say over technical (i.e. money) issues.

Funny that a lot of guys use them in real life. Competition aids in shooting faster and more accurately, isn't that the point of a gunfight?

In real life competitition or real life combat? I run the rifle operators course for my department (a 40 hour course) and I know a lot of the instructors and armorers from other departments in my state and I can't think of a single one of them that uses a muzzle brake in preference to a flash suppressor on their patrol rifles. That's something like 200 or so departments. Not to mention the Army or Marine Corps.

Maybe you drive a formula 1 racecar to the grocery store, but I take the ol' minivan. ;) In this respect, sir, I think we must agree to disagree.

Gutshot John

08-02-09, 14:08

Because a birdcage spreads the blast in more directions, and comp directs it in fewer directions. Some others here have commented that leaning around cover, moving in close confines, one doesn't have the luxury of assuming a perfect range stance and the comp can work to your detriment. When doing these hasty positions, you can direct your muzzle blast into the face of someone close to you a lot easier with a comp. Having fired with people in close confines using comps during an active shooter instructor class at Sig, I don't want to repeat the experience. Additionally, when moving with a team into building during an active shooter response, one of your few advantages could be numbers (most active shooters work alone). What good is it to use your super-duper comp so your barrel remains rock steady, when your enormous blast could be throwing off the aim of the person to the left and right of you. Just saying....

Despite the number of "what-ifs" in the above statement, an A2 throws flame in a good size arc from 9 to 3 o'clock. unless you are BELOW the gun, you can still get burned in close contact so it still remains a risk. Clearly there is an opportunity cost no matter what you choose. I think perhaps we're approaching this from a team vs. individual perspective. For an entry team, I don't think a FH is really the perfect solution as a suppressor combo is far superior to either a brake or FH.

I know that. I said the potential hearing loss is bad enough, whatever you use. There's no need to add the discomfort of firing in close quarters with a muzzle comp blasting in your face.

There is no added discomfort in shooting a brake indoors vs. outdoors. The only discomfort might be felt by those on either side of you. If a MB is blasting in your (the royal you) face while you shoot it, then you've got bigger problems than can be corrected here. Once again shooting a brake is no less, and a damn site more, comfortable for the shooter.

As far as sound suppressors go, they can be great for firing indoors, but one campus department I've worked with uses them, and they dislike the length they add to their carbines. The chief bought regular 16" inch carbines and with the suppressors they carbines run about 21" inches. Its one thing to equip your own super guns, but try working within the confines of a state or city run logistical system where the person that knows the best doesn't have final say over technical (i.e. money) issues.

Most people that use suppressors, also get them with SBRs for entry. I can't help what some department may choose. We're talking about individual shooters here. I presume a department will either allow or disallow brakes so in that case the point is moot...the choice is taken from an individual and if it allows then it will logistically support them.

In real life competitition or real life combat? I run the rifle operators course for my department (a 40 hour course) and I know a lot of the instructors and armorers from other departments in my state and I can't think of a single one of them that uses a muzzle brake in preference to a flash suppressor on their patrol rifles. That's something like 200 or so departments. Not to mention the Army or Marine Corps.

You know instructors/armorers from 200+ deparments? Damn, well fair enough, but odds are pretty good that someone, somewhere is using a brake...since there is a tactical market for them...see Surefire, KAC etc. FWIW I've seen operators, contractors, LEOs and other (many that outshot most of the class) and others in classes that used brakes both in class and in real life.

Maybe you drive a formula 1 racecar to the grocery store, but I take the ol' minivan. ;) In this respect, sir, I think we must agree to disagree.

Apples and oranges, but I agree to disagree. You might also remember that I said there are valid reasons for choosing a FH (I use them too) but your previous post implying an MB is the "last thing you want" is simply overbaked. I certainly can agree that there are disadvantages to a brake in different applications.

wild_wild_wes

08-02-09, 16:35

Okay you guys are mostly talking 3-gun. Put what about brakes on Precision rifles?

I have a .308 bolt gun with a 26" barrel; I mostly use it for target shooting, but have run it in a 1000 yard Long Range Tactical match. The rifle is unweildy for anything other than that and I was considering having the barrel cut back a few inches; I happen to have a Miculek brake in my parts box, and was considering having the barrel threaded for it at the same time it was being trimmed. Would the brake be an asset, or would I annoy my fellow shooters on the line? Thanks.

Steve

08-02-09, 18:56

for the record, we don't prohibit brakes, I just won't personally run shooters with them. If there's another SO to run them then they get to shoot. .

Sorry, Rob my fault i thought it read different..

Dave_M

08-02-09, 21:13

Any of the pro-brake people here ever run a bounding overwatch drill with a partner that had a brake mounted? How about a shoot house? Did you find it distracting?

Holy shit. The difference between the two is night and day. I made one of my friends switch to his LMT 10.5 once (over his 16" with a brake) after a drill because the brake was so damn obnoxious (Surefire MB556K). Yes, the SBR with a FH was less obnoxious and distracting than a 16" rifle with a brake.

As far as SO'ing, I SO'd today at a 3-gun match and the guys running brakes made it less than pleasant for me, that I will say. I agree with rob, I don't really see a point. I habitually beat many guys that run brakes. It's not like 5.56 recoils enough to routinely warrant one unless you get paid to shoot.

rob_s

08-03-09, 04:33

Sorry, Rob my fault i thought it read different..

No problem, I just didn't want any prospective participants reading that and thinking they had to change up their gear for SFDCC. Obviously it's much less of an issue today but when we started 5 years ago the AWB had just sunset and if we hadn't allowed brakes we would have had a hard time finding participants.

Today we don't deal with the issue too much. Today most ARs sold don't come with brakes and few shooters get to the point that they think that a brake will help them. Right, wrong, or otherwise I also tend to dissuade them if they ask my opinion on the matter.

Gutshot John

08-03-09, 10:25

Any of the pro-brake people here ever run a bounding overwatch drill with a partner that had a brake mounted? How about a shoot house? Did you find it distracting?

First you say that I'm "pro-brake" which is missing my point. I'm not arguing that it's the "right" tactical choice, only a valid one depending on your requirements/situation. JFreuler has enlightened us as to a significant disadvantage to a MB so clearly I agree that they exist. People however have made it sound like your eyebrows are going to burn off and your ears will start to bleed. You're not going to die in a ball of fire just because you use a brake rather than a FH.

Yes I've done bounding drills, and while no shoot-houses per se I've shot in plenty of indoor ranges. I've noticed little difference though people in the lanes next to me were sometimes like "holy crap". Again I understand that a brake is ill-advised for an entry team but then the FH is not the perfect solution in that case either.

Holy shit. The difference between the two is night and day. I made one of my friends switch to his LMT 10.5 once (over his 16" with a brake) after a drill because the brake was so damn obnoxious (Surefire MB556K). Yes, the SBR with a FH was less obnoxious and distracting than a 16" rifle with a brake.

That's a subjective assessment, but objectively that seems wrong. When I've shot next to SBRs vs. brake the SBR was a lot more distracting. It's simple chemistry/physics, unburned powder increases blast/flash. It's very counterintuitive to state that an 10.5 with FH doesn't produce as much noise/blast as a 16" with brake, especially in an enclosed space. I would need to see some objective data to accept that.

As far as SO'ing, I SO'd today at a 3-gun match and the guys running brakes made it less than pleasant for me, that I will say. I agree with rob, I don't really see a point. I habitually beat many guys that run brakes. It's not like 5.56 recoils enough to routinely warrant one unless you get paid to shoot.

I don't think anyone has ever claimed that a brake will overcome lack of training/skill. Ultimately you choose your gear because you believe it will help you shoot better, not because you're worried about offending your neighbors. I mean people tweak/modify triggers all the time, it's the same thing. If you believe that a piece of gear is going to help you shoot better, than there is a certain amount of self-fulfillment. Brakes do have some nice advantages that shouldn't be dismissed.

rubberneck

08-03-09, 11:00

In real life competitition or real life combat? I run the rifle operators course for my department (a 40 hour course) and I know a lot of the instructors and armorers from other departments in my state and I can't think of a single one of them that uses a muzzle brake in preference to a flash suppressor on their patrol rifles. That's something like 200 or so departments. Not to mention the Army or Marine Corps.

I am reasonably sure that the guys a TigerSwan use breaks as do the guys with Magpul. I'd be willing to bet that those guys probably have more combat time under their belt than most of the instructors or armorers in your state. I can't see any of those guys wasting their time with a piece of kit just to shoot faster in class. If they hang one on their gun their is probably a really good reason why they do. YMMV.

LOKNLOD

08-03-09, 12:19

I think the flash/blast/noise can be a bit of a red herring in this discussion. Barrel length, ammo type, proximity to other items, location of the observer relative to the shooter, personal sensitivity, and the muzzle device's design all factor in, and unless you do some scientific testing it's going to be hard to get a good comparison.

Ever since my first ban-era AR with a POS muzzle brake, I've had a bad opinion of brakes on rifles. That thing looked like a piece of bar stock with some random holes drilled in it, and it was noticeably brain-shattering when you shot it. Horrible. I don't remember any particular lack of recoil or muzzle rise. I think the ban caused a lot of extra bad brakes to be out on the market, poorly designed as each company tried to have it's own proprietary "super brake".

Brake designs for ARs seem to have come a long way since then, with designs like the KAC triple tap and the FSC556 carving out a better niche between good performance and miserable blast. Of course they cost an arm and a leg.

Accessorizing weapons is always a compromise and everyone's needs and wants may not always line up. I'm thinking of trying a brake on my GP carbine because when shooting at some distance with magnification, it's easier to lose track of the target under recoil and every little bit of stabilization helps. I'm building an SBR and don't plan on a brake because of the intended usage and blast issues.

You've got to look at it (a brake, an optic, anything on the gun) as a component of a system and make a decision on how it fits into the puzzle. Everyone (generalized) seems to want to get on the internet and ask "Hey does this work? Do I need one?" and expect people to give them a definitive yes or no (oddly enough, the asker is often compelled to then argue with askees...but that's a different topic). Ultimately one has to make an individual decision based a careful weighing of the pros and cons vs. one's own particular needs and wants. Why is that so hard to understand for so many? (Not directed at anyone in this thread). Sorry for the tangent.

On the original topic, I think that limiting muzzle devices based solely on what has a place in "tactical" shooting is lame. If you want to run something non-standard to gain an advantage, you have to deal with the negative aspects too. I understand that any time something becomes a "game" then the considerations of "fair play" come in, but really the most realistic, "tactical" rule you could have would be to say anything goes. Everybody talks mindset and preparedness and quotes how "the only fair fight is the one you lose" but then we try to handicap ourselves in the name of being tactical? Doesn't make sense to me.

rob_s

08-03-09, 12:22

I wouldn't think that it's necessarily "in the name of being tactical" but instead is in order to avoid the equipment race and the perception that one shooter is "buying" their placing. The only banned equipment we have to date for our matches is bipods and non-coplaner sighting systems (like the 1 O'clock mounts). Everything else for us is fair game, largely for exactly that reason.

LOKNLOD

08-03-09, 12:34

I gotcha Rob, that was more directed at a general attitude I see a lot, and what it sounds like the OP is getting flak about in his situation, not your club matches. They sound a good time, wish I had something like that here.

And I understand about the equipment racing problem but that seems to happen no matter how restrictive the rules get.

Robb Jensen

08-03-09, 13:07

My 3gun rifle. WOA SPR 18" rifle gas barrel, factory size gas port of .100", JP steel adjustable gas block pinned. Barrel turned down to .650" under the rail. DD RIS II M4A1 rail, VLTOR MUR upper receiver, Tactical Innovations lower, JP LMOS carrier. 3.0oz carbine buffer, standard rate carbine buffer spring, LMT SOPMOD stock, Magpul MOE grip, Geissele match trigger, PRI charging handle, Troy flip up sights, JP close range sight, Burris XTR 1-4x 30mm scope, Bobro scope mount and forward grip. KAC Triple Tap compensator.

I was using a SJC Titan muzzle brake which works extremely well for competition, recoil is almost nothing barely more than a Ruger 10/22 .22LR.
Before I added the Phase 5 Tactical bolt release I was using a 1.8oz carbine buffer. The first time I fired the rifle with that buffer I couldn't even feel the bolt lock back when the rifle ran empty so I had to give it a little more gas just so I would feel it. The trick to lower felt recoil is lowering the moving mass, making the gun slightly muzzle heavy and using a great comp/brake. After adding the Phase 5 Tactical bolt release I had to go back to a 3.0oz buffer and adjust the gas system so that it lock back when empty. I had to modify the bolt release as well as it was too heavy and the gun cycled to fast for the bolt catch to intercept the bolt. I removed a lot of the bolt release weight using a milling machine and then refinished it with Norrells.

The problem with most brakes/comps is that they are very loud and when fired close to the ground they kick up debris and or dig a hole.
I shoot a lot of 3gun matches where they make the shooter shoot prone and roll-over prone and this makes for a mess.
The KAC Triple Tap doesn't kick up much debris off the ground, while it's not a true competition comp/brake it does an excellent job of lowering felt recoil and muzzle lift. It works better than many of the strictly competition brakes/comps I've used in the past. And it does this while being much quieter with less concussion to the shooter and bystanders. One thing I noticed is that the rifle feels smoother with the KAC Triple Tap. It's hard to describe but it just feels smoother kind of just like when you get your cars engine tuned it just feels smoother.

I used this rifle with this KAC Triple Tap compensator at a 3-man 3-gun match two weeks ago in York PA. My team placed 1st in our division and 2nd overall. My two teammates were Dan L. using a JP Bennie Cooley Comp on a 18" midlength WOA SPR barrel and Brett S. using a TTi recoil eliminator on a 16" Bushmaster .625" barrel. We 'play' to win. Sure it's fun but we don't show up to lose. Games are games and training is training. Competition isn't training and training isn't competition. Wise men have figured out that each can compliment each other which is why I'm volunteering and helping out our dedicated Marines at Quantico with competition.

Sound is relative....a 10.5" gun with a A2 flash hider/comp is about the same 'loudness' as a 16-20" gun with a PWS FSC556......careful on what you don't allow, this might actually be gear which is issued and or is standard turnout gear. This is what's killing IPDA. Example: Some police officers are issued pistol lights and wear them as parts of their duty gear, but these aren't allowed in IDPA SSP.

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