View Full Version : Possible issues due to rust...
A friend left me a Colt BCG for storage which I decided to clean before doing so.
Everything looked fine except for the bolt tail which was pitted with rust.
Any possible cycling issues that may result from the pitting?
Was this corrosion on the bolt tail under a layer of carbon?
Was this corrosion on the bolt tail under a layer of carbon?
Some yes. There wasnt too much carbon on it. Some after wiping off what looked like diluted rust.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2509/3776852202_7afd2daf9b_o.jpg
Ouch.
I hate seeing things in that condition. :(
That is down right neglect. I have some other words but some people can't be convinced otherwise reference taking care of things.
I would let it soak in some Kroil, then scrub it with a steel tootbrush, then go over it with some steel wool. Change the gas rings, maybe hit the inside with a .17 brush.
That is down right neglect. I have some other words but some people can't be convinced otherwise reference taking care of things.
That pretty much sums it up. I personally wouldn't use that bolt.
That is down right neglect. I have some other words but some people can't be convinced otherwise reference taking care of things.
I would let it soak in some Kroil, then scrub it with a steel tootbrush, then go over it with some steel wool. Change the gas rings, maybe hit the inside with a .17 brush.
I dont know how it was stored before having been turned over to me but from what I saw, it appears to have been cleaned before storage because it didnt have much carbon on it.
So it's still re-usable after doing the above procedure??
I dont know how it was stored before having been turned over to me but from what I saw, it appears to have been cleaned before storage because it didnt have much carbon on it.
So it's still re-usable after doing the above procedure??
To be on the safe side and retracting what I said above, no. The manual states that if the cluster of pitting is larger than 1/8" diameter and if the appear o be deeper than .010", then no. The big area's of concern would be the face, lugs and cam pin hole.
The -23&P is not very lenient on bolt carrier damage inspection limits. The -23 calls out specific inspection criteria for bolt face pitting, but as far as the rest of the bolt goes, any damage around the cam pin hole or locking lugs, is cause for rejection.
As far as -23 standards goes, your bolt is unserviceable. Whether you want to risk using it, is completely up to you.
Blankwaffe
08-01-09, 15:17
The -23&P is not very lenient on bolt carrier damage inspection limits. The -23 calls out specific inspection criteria for bolt face pitting, but as far as the rest of the bolt goes, any damage around the cam pin hole or locking lugs, is cause for rejection.
As far as -23 standards goes, your bolt is unserviceable. Whether you want to risk using it, is completely up to you.
Quib,
Maybe you should post up your dunkit solution/instructions and have the mods/staff do a sticky in the FAQ.
I think that might help the "pitted bolt" situation in the future.
In Col_Crocs situation it was beyond his control,but this is becoming a common problem it seems.
Quib,
Maybe you should post up your dunkit solution/instructions and have the mods/staff do a sticky in the FAQ.
I think that might help the "pitted bolt" situation in the future.
I don’t think anyone here at this site is interested in that cleaning method.
ETA: Besides that, I’ve heard from other sources that those “In the know...” consider me “OCD” when it comes to weapons maintenance.
geminidglocker
08-01-09, 16:45
I'de consider that bolt spent. Looks pretty rough.:( Makes me sad to see firearms in a state of disrepair aswell.
Col- Tell your friend Bravo Co. has bolts in stock right now.
Col- Tell your friend Bravo Co. has bolts in stock right now.
Agree,BCM bolts are GTG(GOOD TO GO):cool: $70 bucks and your back in the game.:)
Blankwaffe
08-01-09, 18:41
I don’t think anyone here at this site is interested in that cleaning method.
ETA: Besides that, I’ve heard from other sources that those “In the know...” consider me “OCD” when it comes to weapons maintenance.
Oh well...
Im a bit OCD in that area myself...never had a rusty bolt though,so I guess it pays off in the end.
Oh well...
Im a bit OCD in that area myself...never had a rusty bolt though,so I guess it pays off in the end.
..... ;)
Captains1911
08-01-09, 19:46
Oh well...
Im a bit OCD in that area myself...never had a rusty bolt though,so I guess it pays off in the end.
+1. Plus, I enjoy cleaning my guns.
Thanks everyone! I too tend to be pretty OC with cleaning. I dont like doing it but hate even more the uneasiness I feel when my weapons arent clean. :) -- Which is why I took the BCG apart in the first place as supposed to automatically tossing it in a jar of oil.
Quib,
Maybe you should post up your dunkit solution/instructions and have the mods/staff do a sticky in the FAQ.
I think that might help the "pitted bolt" situation in the future.
I agree! I understand some dont clean as extensively as others but how about a "maintenance sticky" of different cleaning methods from the "just enough" to average to extensive as well as lubricating and rust prevention.
It should avoid a good half of the cleaning queries and it would provide a great resource for those new to ARs.
I don’t think anyone here at this site is interested in that cleaning method.
From this thread alone, I think it's clear to see there are quite a few like us around the site and Im sure your method would be greatly appreciated.
I don’t think anyone here at this site is interested in that cleaning method.
ETA: Besides that, I’ve heard from other sources that those “In the know...” consider me “OCD” when it comes to weapons maintenance.
Well, I go by the "Horse, Saddle, Man" procedure.
When people get going on about cleaning, I think you get the two extremes. One is the white gloves cleaning rod chucked in a drill to the shoot it until it breaks, all jocked up in my ninja suit cleaning is for wannabee's.
It's easy to see where the stories come from about damage to guns that someone used screw driver, flattened finish nails, wire wheels on a bench grinder, etc, etc, etc.
Then it's easy to see and understand the stresses put on parts when there excess carbon, a slurry of the same everywhere in the weapon.
There's so many ways of cleaning the AR based weapon, if you took 10 minutes when you get home to go over it, that's no that bad. Not alot to ask to take care of an investment in a tool that can be anything from a toy to a life saving instrument. At the very least, you paid alot of money for it and what's the point of abusing it-that's my opinion. I would bet that so many people balk about cleaning it and within an hour of being home are jacking off on the computer eating Frito's.
Just yesterday, two G17's and two AR's, so freaking dirty, they wouldn't work any longer, even with lube.
Bottom line, you decide on how you want to treat your weapon and equipment and how you want it to work, or not for you.
Mark
Bottom line, you decide on how you want to treat your weapon and equipment and how you want it to work, or not for you.
Mark
I’ve been saying basically the same thing for years. I believe most recently, right here within the pages of this web site.
ETA: Right here as a matter of fact......https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=34876&page=7
I’ve also been noted as saying....
We may not agree on every topic, every time. But differences in opinion can be expressed with discipline and respect.
Smuckatelli
08-02-09, 11:10
There's so many ways of cleaning the AR based weapon, if you took 10 minutes when you get home to go over it, that's no that bad. Not alot to ask to take care of an investment in a tool that can be anything from a toy to a life saving instrument. At the very least, you paid alot of money for it and what's the point of abusing it-that's my opinion. I would bet that so many people balk about cleaning it and within an hour of being home are jacking off on the computer eating Frito's.
+1
There seems to be experts that feel there is no need to clean the weapon. They also seem to think that a cleaning means white glove inspection.:rolleyes:
It only takes 10 minutes to shotgun the weapon, wipe off the BCG, chamber, bore and then apply CLP.
A couple days later another 30 minute cleaning, wipe off the BCG, chamber, bore and so a detailed FUNCTION inspection.
Sometimes it's almost like passing gas in church when you mention that you clean your weapon.:eek:
I think that the only way to truly inspect a weapon for serviceability, is to clean it. I can not fathom the thought of firing a weapon that my life depends on, for 1000’s of rounds and never disassembling the weapon to inspect it for condition and serviceability.
Is the weapon capable of this? Sure it is. And this is testimony to the reliability of the weapon. People have proven this time and time again by not cleaning. But asking the question of how long can the weapon go without maintenance, is not a question I want to ask myself each time I pull the trigger.
Anyone who has relied on a weapon for defense of themselves can surely attest to that. I know that was the case with the weapons I was issued in the military. And I can speak from experience. I have been in those situations where my life and the lives of others depended not only on the condition of our weapons, but the condition of ALL of our equipment.
I would not strap my self into the cockpit of a helicopter, that was not properly inspected and maintained, and not question its condition and whether or not it will perform. The last thing I would want, is to neglect my equipment, have it fail, and I and the crew go down.
The same goes for my personal weapon. I would not trust a weapon that was not properly inspected and maintained, and not question its condition and whether or not it will perform. The last thing I would want, is to neglect my equipment, have it fail, and know that had I taken the time to inspect it, that malfunction might have been preventable.
This is my take on weapons maintenance. It’s how I was trained. If your experience differs, then so be it. I will not criticize or insult you on your routine or lack thereof. And I will expect that same level of respect in return.
To all, I will be working on and it may take some time to complete a thread that will be sticky'ed and closed so people can use it as a reference.
It will be a reference, not gospel and meant to help those who don't know or maybe interested in additional information.
Once you see it as a Sticky in here and have any meaningful information to offer, I will entertain it.
It will be prepared in the Staff/Mod section and cleaned up somewhat before entering the "world"
It will be a base reference for general cleaning and is not intended to replace the hands on inspection and maintenance by qualified professionals or to deviate from any private or government mandates on the subject if the weapon is an issued one.
Hope that helps answer any questions on this.
geminidglocker
08-02-09, 14:23
It's nice to hear from fellow "Cleaning Junkies" I've about had it up to here, wherever here is with all of the "Never clean your weapon until it starts to exhibit a failure." Maybe it would'nt exhibit a failure if you just got off your lazy ass and cleaned it. My M16A2 NEVER failed me, not even once! while I was in Iraq.
Smuckatelli
08-02-09, 14:51
This is my take on weapons maintenance. It’s how I was trained. If your experience differs, then so be it. I will not criticize or insult you on your routine or lack thereof. And I will expect that same level of respect in return.
I was beginning to doubt the value of spending time here. It is good to know that there are others that understand the need for cleaning:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=421679&postcount=34
I got eaten alive on that thread because of my experiences.
On my first no-name parts franken-AR, I was guilty of shooting ~1k rounds in heavy rain and then not cleaning the rifle for a couple of days... all sorts of pitting in the bolt when I cleaned it.
No rust or pitting on any other part of the weapon. I keep the bolt in my spares box to show people, as an example.
I was beginning to doubt the value of spending time here. It is good to know that there are others that understand the need for cleaning:
You are not alone. ;)
It's nice to hear from fellow "Cleaning Junkies" I've about had it up to here, wherever here is with all of the "Never clean your weapon until it starts to exhibit a failure." Maybe it would'nt exhibit a failure if you just got off your lazy ass and cleaned it. My M16A2 NEVER failed me, not even once! while I was in Iraq.
LOL- I don’t even consider myself a “cleaning junkie”, although for some unknown reason, some tend to brand me as “OCD”. It may just stem from my passion to maintain my personal equipment, which I am never afraid to admit exists.
I may have some personal methods that expedite my cleaning routine, but other than that I basically clean, lube and inspect IAW the -10 Operators Manual. I find nothing “OCD” about that at all.
The -10 Operators Manual.......that’s about as basic as it gets!
heartbreakridge01
08-02-09, 19:43
Just my (long) .02 cents.
Cleaning my weapons is a love hate realtionship for me lol. I really dont mind breaking down a firearm to clean it. It really does not take long at all. I look at it as preventive maint and as a quick visual inspection.
For my pistols I mainly wipe the carbon off clean the barrel, lube wipe down and put it back togther. Rifles are a differnt story for some reason. My Model 70 is usually quick I never shoot more than 20 rounds at a time anyways so its usually the barrel that gets the most work. Quick oily wipe down on the barrel action floor plate for rust prevention and back in the safe. Same with my shotguns. These are my love to clean guns. Quick and simple
Then there is my hate to clean guns. My AK74's These always fall into the shit I took 4 of them to the range and shot corrosive ammo threw them ALL. I normally put this task off for a few days because its such a PITA. The quickest way I found is the bathtub with hot soapy water. Clean the barrel out. Relube the out/inside grease the bolt head, front trunion locking lugs, bolt carrier. Good to go.
The wife hates when I clean them in the bath tub so I normally clean with Hoppe's #9 and a tooth brush soak the gas tube, muzzle muzzle break and gas piston with foaming bore solvent then start scraping off all the baked on carbon which I hate lol I soak the bolt in Hoppe's then scrub the hell out of that dry it off with a rag and compressed air. Then Blow the rest of the hoppe's out of the receiver with compressed air and wipe it all down and regrease the same stuff as above.
This gets really old after about 2 rifles, so I dont get as detailed usually. Most of this is due to the use of corrosive surplus ammo.
Ive only cleaned one AR seemed pretty easy and quick. But I only shot 80 rounds hell the chamber wasnt even dirty lol I didnt even touch the lower. I mainly did it to make sure every thing looked good after the test fire (which is when I found my bolt I posted about yesterday so I guess it is good to clean lol)
Basically I guess I could sum this all up into, A) how many rounds you shoot per session. B) how often you shoot, daily, weekly, monthly yearly! safe queen? lol C) a deep clean is good but not necessary every range trip D) type of ammo you are shooting.
This why it is necessary to clean the carbon off a boat tail if long term storage is required.
I see this all the time on old guns that have been neglected.
I'd be more worried about the lugs...
Failure Analysis of the M16 Rifle Bolt
V.Y. Yu*, J.G. Kohl, R.A. Crapanzano, M.W. Davies, A.G. Elam, M.K. Veach
Department of Civil and Mechanical Engineering
United States Military Academy
West Point, NY 10996, USA
<SNIP>
4. Conclusions
The fracture of the M16 bolt resulted from a cumulative effect of high stress concentrations at the fillet radius and the additional stress concentration imposed by the presence of localized pitting at the surface. The bolt possesses many fillet regions which impose numerous areas of high stress concentration. In particular, two fillets experienced higher stress immediately adjacent to the round extractor due to the non-contiguous feature of the bolt. These two specific areas of high stress concentration also corresponded to the same location where failure of the bolt occurred in all fractured bolt specimens. Micrographs obtained from the scanning electron microscope of the fractured surface showed localized pitting at the failure initiation site. In addition, transgranular crack propagation near the pit formations in the fillet regions was observed. The localized pits formed near the locking lugs also served as high stress concentration points. The presence of pits in the material amplified the stresses of the bolt in the locking lug region which already had a high stress concentration due to the irregular geometry of the bolt. This cumulative stress concentration provides a good indicator why the crack initiated and propagated from this region.
The wear observed in the controlled experiment indicates the mechanism of why the corrosion pits formed near the locking lug fillet by exposing the Carpenter Steel 158 base metal to the environment. Vickers microhardness readings near the fillet region show that the bolt was not uniformly case hardened. Comparison of the microhardness readings near the fillet region and 10 mm from this region show a disparity of approximately 100 units. The softer, less carburized region near the fillet contributes to the formation of a wear area after firing just 1800 rounds.
I'd be more worried about the lugs...
Failure Analysis of the M16 Rifle Bolt
V.Y. Yu*, J.G. Kohl, R.A. Crapanzano, M.W. Davies, A.G. Elam, M.K. Veach
Department of Civil and Mechanical Engineering
United States Military Academy
West Point, NY 10996, USA
<SNIP>
4. Conclusions
The fracture of the M16 bolt resulted from a cumulative effect of high stress concentrations at the fillet radius and the additional stress concentration imposed by the presence of localized pitting at the surface. The bolt possesses many fillet regions which impose numerous areas of high stress concentration. In particular, two fillets experienced higher stress immediately adjacent to the round extractor due to the non-contiguous feature of the bolt. These two specific areas of high stress concentration also corresponded to the same location where failure of the bolt occurred in all fractured bolt specimens. Micrographs obtained from the scanning electron microscope of the fractured surface showed localized pitting at the failure initiation site. In addition, transgranular crack propagation near the pit formations in the fillet regions was observed. The localized pits formed near the locking lugs also served as high stress concentration points. The presence of pits in the material amplified the stresses of the bolt in the locking lug region which already had a high stress concentration due to the irregular geometry of the bolt. This cumulative stress concentration provides a good indicator why the crack initiated and propagated from this region.
The wear observed in the controlled experiment indicates the mechanism of why the corrosion pits formed near the locking lug fillet by exposing the Carpenter Steel 158 base metal to the environment. Vickers microhardness readings near the fillet region show that the bolt was not uniformly case hardened. Comparison of the microhardness readings near the fillet region and 10 mm from this region show a disparity of approximately 100 units. The softer, less carburized region near the fillet contributes to the formation of a wear area after firing just 1800 rounds.
Great Info! THanks!
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