View Full Version : Anyone polish their finished rounds?
If so, do you use a vibratory case polisher, what type of media, what kind of polish, and how long do you polish?
I'm using Lyman treated corncob for my empty case polishing but want to spiff up my loaded rounds. I can see my rounds have tarnished a few hours after loading from my grubby fingers on them. Somewhere I saw some people had recommended using an automotive type wax/cleaner added to untreated corncob for polishing cases if the normal media treatment wasn't available. I wiped some of mine with Meguiar's Gold Class wax and they're nice and shiny now. Looks like they're holding up well after me handling them quite a bit during final inspection.
I've got a few things I'm concerned about though. I use stick powder in some of my rounds and have heard of some bad things happening after the rounds have been knocked around for a while. Supposedly the stick powder broke down and became more like ball then created excessive pressure. So is it safe or not to vibrate my complete rounds?
The other thing I question is if I'm creating the same condition as lubing my rounds with oil and possibly have a situation where the brass expands but there's not enough friction to hold it in the chamber properly.
Any other things I need to look at or should I just shoot the damn things before they get tarnished and not worry about it?
Thx
So is it safe or not to vibrate my complete rounds?
Yes. Snipers Hide did a test a while back where they took a bunch of handloads and polished half and left the other half alone. No chrono difference at all. I do it and even after extended overnight sessions in my Lyman polisher, I've pulled a could down and they've looked exactly the same, no powder residue, no powder break down (I use Varget).
Here's a long thread from another sight (THR)
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-156750.html
I leave them in overnight after crimping to clean the ammo before I pack it for storage or load it into mags, I dont like pulling out dirty ammo.
The powder breakdown you are talking about happens when people leave a box of ammo in there glove compartment for several years. The vibration from driving vibrates the powder inside the case breaking it down. I am sure high heat during the summers months could probably help to degrade the powder also.
The powder breakdown you are talking about happens when people leave a box of ammo in there glove compartment for several years. The vibration from driving vibrates the powder inside the case breaking it down. I am sure high heat during the summers months could probably help to degrade the powder also.
Powders are blended extensively by the manufacturor. Riding in a car for a few years won't cause break down. The heat on the other hand might be a real factor.
I don't tumble my finished rounds. Only for the reason that I tumble the lube off of the brass before I load them so the ammo is already clean.
A lot of factory ammo is tumbled after assembly.
The stick powders will break down after years of riding in a vehicle. The powder vibrates against itself and changes the shape of the powder which changes the burn rate. I have only heard of this with ammo that has been in the vehicle for a looong time like 10yrs (I don't think too many of us on this forum have this problem).
A lot of people tumble their ammo to shine them up. Stay away from adding polish that has ammonia in it. The ammonia can cause brass to become brittle.
I'm using the green Lyman stuff for my empty brass. I'm going to try tumbling a mag load or three with corncob and Meguiar's Gold Class car wax to see if it functions correctly. It takes off corrosion very well, leaves my rag a little black though. It puts a semi slick coating on the rounds that resists corrosion but I don't think enough so it will affect function. Since it's safe for clear coat car finish I doubt there's anything that would degrade my brass. I'll ckeck on Meguiar's forums just to be sure. I've been using it on my flyrods for years though with no problems.
freakshow10mm
08-03-09, 22:03
Corncob and walnut mix prior to loading. Ceramic media mixed with a wet solution for 20 minutes after loading. This is a remanufactured OTM round.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/freakshow10mm/Handloading/P4100013.jpg
CryingWolf
08-04-09, 11:22
There are lots of sources that say it doesn't do anything but why take that chance? If your really obsessive then a quick wipe down by hand right after loading should do the trick.
After rereading your post looks like you are doing that.
Maybe you could just wear latex gloves if the oils/sweat from your hands turn the cases that fast.
MarshallDodge
08-04-09, 12:42
Typically I wash my dirty cases in a liquid homegrown recipe I found online. It consists of water, lemon juice, vinegar, and a little soap. Wash, rinse, and let dry.
Next I tumble them in corncob and some polish for an hour. They come out looking shiny new. Lube, size, trim, and debur.
I wash them again in the same liquid cleaner as above, rinse, and dry to remove the lube. It also take some of the residue out of the primer pockets. Then I load them. We live in a fairly dry climate so I don't see much for fingerprints, etc. on the cases.
I have tumbled my rounds in untreated walnut at the end. It cleans them up nicely and I have not noticed a performance difference.
freakshow10mm
08-04-09, 12:52
There are lots of sources that say it doesn't do anything but why take that chance? If your really obsessive then a quick wipe down by hand right after loading should do the trick.
After rereading your post looks like you are doing that.
All the major commercial manufacturers tumble polish their loaded ammunition. Doesn't seem to bother their performance.
I polish all my reloads when finished reloading. I use plain small kernel corn cob. Tumble for about 30 mins.
CryingWolf
08-04-09, 19:55
All the major commercial manufacturers tumble polish their loaded ammunition. Doesn't seem to bother their performance.
I also read this is for a couple of minutes, not for any real length of time.
Show me one ammo manufacture who will say go head and throw our ammo in a tumbler to shine them up a little. :p
Also show me one powder manufacture that is OK with the practice of putting loaded ammo with their powder into a tumbler to clean them up a little.
Not just talking to some dumb secretary but show me a manufacture of either powder or ammo that publicly is OK with this.
I did find at least one case of powder breaking down under tumbling. And this may only be one case and just an isolated case but that is good enough for me to know that not only is the practice not needed but could affect the ammo.
http://accurateshooter.wordpress.com/2008/09/02/why-you-should-not-tumble-clean-loaded-ammo/
From: njohnson@nosc.mil (Norman F. Johnson)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: **** WARNING TO RELOADERS ****
Date: 2 May 1995 21:19:15 -0400
Organization: U of Maryland, Dept. of Computer Science, Coll. Pk., MD 20742
Lines: 47
# Recently a poor guy found some of his old .44mag rounds
# on the shelf. They were covered with particles and partly
# oxidated so he descided to make them nice and shiny before
# firing. He put them into his tumbler for half an hour.
# When firing the first round he discovered that, apart from
# making the rounds look nice, the tumbling had converted
# his magnum powder into VERY FAST BURNING PISTOL POWDER.
# #Is it safe to tumble loaded ammo?
This has been a practice of many of us for a good many years
despite the advice of many on this net.
Our police range which is open to the public, and sells its
reloaded ammo to that same public, has for at least 20 years used
a regular cement mixer to tumble the loaded ammo to remove resiz-
ing lube. The media used is ground corn cobs and mineral spirits
which shines the brass like a mirror.
In the ancient past, I have run test batches of .38 and .45 ACP
ammo, increasing time, for up to a number of days (no records
here) in my TEC vibrators. Each day I would remove a sample of
the ammo and use Ken Water's method to indicate any pressure
increases.
There was no pressure increase after a few days so I stopped the
test knowing that there was no hazard to that practice if kept
within reason - the time required to clean off the lube being a
VERY small percentage of my test times. In practice I leave mine
in from a couple of hours to overnight.
This is yet another piece of "conventional wisdom" that the gun
writers pass back and forth without ever trying it for
themselves. We have enough real but little understood hazards to
watch for without adding false ones.
For those who still do not feel comfortable with this practice,
simply clean the brass after sizing but before charging.
God Bless!
Norm
From: jepsen@telepost.no (Morten B Jepsen)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: **** WARNING TO RELOADERS **** MORE DETAILS
Date: 6 May 1995 22:04:17 -0400
Organization: Stolt Comex Seaway A/S
Lines: 137
In my first article i wrote:
#
#WARNING to reloaders
#
#**** DO NOT PUT LOADED ROUNDS IN THE TUMBLER ****
#
#Recently a poor guy found some of his old .44mag rounds
#on the shelf. They were covered with particles and partly
#oxidated so he descided to make them nice and shiny before
#firing. He put them into his tumbler for half an hour.
#
#When firing the first round he discovered that, apart from
#making the rounds look nice, the tumbling had converted
#his magnum powder into VERY FAST BURNING PISTOL POWDER.
#
#RESULT: The revolver disintegrated and he spent some
#time in hospital.
Here I am back with more information regarding accident described
above.
Sorry for not responding earlier, but from the reply to my first
article, I could see that this subject was "burning hot". I decided
to make my homework and I have collected information from powder
manufacturer and the source of the "accident story".
Below you will find the facts from my investigation along with
my personal opinions.
SOURCE OF INFORMATION
The incident is published in "Vaapenjournalen Nr. 8 - 1994"
page 18 - 19. The article is titled "Hvordan man lager en
haandgranat" - "How to make a handgrenade".
Vaapenjournalen is the Norwegian equivalent to "Guns and Ammo".
This magazine is quite serious and they do normally not publish
anything without proper documentation. The authors are Erik Braathen
and Svein Solli. They are also the authors of "Ladeboka", a
Norwegian handbook for reloaders, 694 pages worth reading and used
throughout Scandinavia.
THE POWDER USED
The powder was Vithavuori N110, the fastest burning of Vithavuori's
rifle powders. It is the most popular powder in Norway for reloading
Magnum ammo for handguns.
For comparison with Hercules power I have found the following loading
data both for Lyman 429421 Pb, 250 grain bullet:
N110 22.0 grain 1500 f/s
2400 22.0 grain 1495 f/s
Vithavuori is a well known Finish powder manufacturer established in
1922. They produce rifle and handgun powders for the European market
and they are currently producing powder for US defence and they are
approved in accordance with AQAP and SFS-ISO 9001 standards.
N110 is a cylindrical powder with 94-98% nitro-cellulose content. It
has a hole through the cylindrical grain which gives a continuous
burning rate (according to the factory). The reason is that the burning
surface does not noticeably diminish during the burning. The outer
surface of the grain diminishes while the surface area of the hole
grows correspondingly.
The burning rate of the Vithavuori powders is primarily controlled
by the grain size (Vithavuori does not provide any information
regarding surface treatment of the powder). Smaller grain size gives
a higher burning area to the grain weight and thereby a higher burning
rate.
THE TUMBLING
Our unlucky friend was using a steel sizer die so he had to use case
lubricant, but he was to lazy to remove the lubricant after loading,
so he threw the ammo in the tumbler. In my first article I stated that
the cases was partly corroded. This was wrong. after the incident, the
remaining rounds was inspected and no sign of corrosion was mentioned.
THE REVOLVER
The revolver was a S&W M29. There was no indication of failure in the
revolver before the incident.
The article show a picture of the gun after the accident. Unfortunately
I do not have a scanner, so I have to describe the damage. The top of
the frame is missing along with the rear sight. Approx. 1/3 of the
cylinder is missing, two chamber completely opened. No other visible
damage.
INSPECTION OF REMAINING AMMO
After the accident the bullets was pulled from the remaining rounds.
It was confirmed that the powder was in fact N110 and that the weight
of the powder was correct. Nothing wrong with his scale. However, most
of the powder was broken down to much smaller grains than the original
N110. Smaller grains, higher density, higher burning area, higher
burning rate.
CONCLUSION OF THE ARTICLE
The tumbler is for empty brass only. Never put loaded rounds in the
tumbler. As a matter of fact, all tumblers sold in Norway (mostly
from USA) comes with a warning: "Do not put loaded cartridges in the
tumbler".
MY PERSONAL COMMENTS
N110 is quite safe to use with magnum loads. Even a very compressed
load with N110 will not blow up your S&W N29 or 686.
One of the comments to my first article was that ammo can ride in a
truck for long time without any accidents. Consequently, thumbing will
not represent any danger. I disagree with this argument. Vibration in a
truck is low frequency and high amplitude. In a tumbler you have high
frequency and low amplitude. This is the reason for the brass coming out
clean and shiny. Think of a heavy pile with lots of corrosion and rust
scale. You swing it from side to side with a crane and nothing happens.
You then work it with a small vibrating hammer and the rust scale will
come off instantly. If the pipe is filled with grains of porous material
you will transform that into fine powder.
The effect of thumbing may vary with type of tumbler, type of powder
etc. You may be in for a big surprise if you change tumbler or powder.
While composing this article I suddenly remembered a mysterious
incident a few years back. The Norwegian police use S&W M10 as their
sidearm. Some years ago the police bought a large quantity of .38
special ammo from Norma. This ammo was cheap reloaded ammo for
training. Within a few months after this ammunition was introduced
four police revolvers blew up. The investigation was unable to
identify the cause of the accidents, but it was concluded that the
cause lay with the ammunition. Norma ammunition was banned and the
police now uses CBC for training. Since then there has been no more
accidents. Was the Norma ammo thumbled after reloading?
Finally, you can thumble your ammo if you want, but do not stand next
to me on the shooting range.
regards
Morten B Jepsen
jepsen@telepost.no
freakshow10mm
08-04-09, 20:09
Show me one ammo manufacture who will say go head and throw our ammo in a tumbler to shine them up a little. :p
Hornady does. I've spoken with Steve Hornady about this. His company tumbles all loaded ammo to polish it before packaging. He isn't the only one to do this.
Also show me one powder manufacture that is OK with the practice of putting loaded ammo with their powder into a tumbler to clean them up a little.
The Hodgdon technicians as well as the Western Powder and SMP techs have told me they have never heard of anything to cause alarm as powder will not break down by grinding against itself in a tumbler.
Not just talking to some dumb secretary but show me a manufacture of either powder or ammo that publicly is OK with this.
I speak with technicians, not secretaries.
I did find at least one case of powder breaking down under tumbling.
Now was that the breakdown under tumbling or was it other environmental factors such as heat, humidity, etc over long periods of time, seeing as how these were "old loads" according to your source?
If you want to live your life by anecdotes, that's your choice. I'll live mine by facts.
Then again I load ammo for a living. What do I know?
CryingWolf
08-04-09, 23:18
Hornady does. I've spoken with Steve Hornady about this. His company tumbles all loaded ammo to polish it before packaging. He isn't the only one to do this.
Hornady's tumblers warn against it, and as I said before I understand manufactures may do this but from what I understand it is only a few minutes.
The Hodgdon technicians as well as the Western Powder and SMP techs have told me they have never heard of anything to cause alarm as powder will not break down by grinding against itself in a tumbler.
Or abrade? I would be surprised any company would come out, publicly stating, with this being ok?
I speak with technicians, not secretaries.
as above
Now was that the breakdown under tumbling or was it other environmental factors such as heat, humidity, etc over long periods of time, seeing as how these were "old loads" according to your source?
THE TUMBLING
Our unlucky friend was using a steel sizer die so he had to use case
lubricant, but he was to lazy to remove the lubricant after loading,
so he threw the ammo in the tumbler. In my first article I stated that
the cases was partly corroded. This was wrong. after the incident, the
remaining rounds was inspected and no sign of corrosion was mentioned.
If you want to live your life by anecdotes, that's your choice. I'll live mine by facts.
You really haven't proved any facts. And there are sources to the contrary.
Again I would be surprised any ammo company or powder company would publicly come out and say "Tumbling loaded rounds is fine". They could end a long trail of arguments with one statement for or against. First they would have to get past all those pesky warnings against doing it in the tumbler manuals.
Then again I load ammo for a living. What do I know?
My point is if there is a risk and evidence that this can happen then why take the risk? Do you think I would risk my health or that of my son or that of my wife for shiny brass?
This really is a dead horse. My point is I care enough to state to the OP that cleaning the loaded brass by hand is not that much work and even if it is a one in a million chance that something goes wrong when tumbling loaded ammo then why take that chance?
If they don't want to listen or don't care then that is not my problem unless I am standing next to them on the range.
Lets just say I error on the side of caution, you error on the side of shiny brass. Have we had enough beating this horse? I.E. Agree to disagree?
I always tumble after loading. No issues. I only use corncob or walnut, but not treated for post loading.
Didn't mean to open a big can o' worms here guys. I see the arguments for both sides but I'm not a technician, that's why I asked. Too many variables involved for me to be sure. What powder, load density, what are the effects of tumbling on each powder at each density, etc... Humidity and heat are other things I can't really control at the moment. I'm relegated to the garage, no heat-A/C for now, and it's middle of the summer in the south. That's probably the biggest reason my brass is a little corroded. I've tried gloves but if it's not sweat, it's humidity in the air. I'll just stick to rubbing my rounds between microfiber with a little car wax for now.
Eh.. I'll point out here that there are a few regurgitated 3rd hand stories and 15(what?) year old UseNet posts, most of which would be viewed as anecdotal at best. I think 99% of this is old wives tale and 1% of it it possible versus probable. I also think that like jerking off, most people tumble their ammo and tell everyone else 'don't do it' while guiltily looking up from their tumbler.
Here's my challenge:
1) Anyone here have a first hand account of an ammo failure that was a direct and proximate cause of tumbling their ammo?
2) Are their enough failures to constitute scientific evidence?
Steve in PA
08-05-09, 11:12
I run my completed AR rifle rounds through a tumbler for about 20-30 minutes to clean off any residual lube.
I tumble and clean with crushed walnut. Final cleaning is done in a seperate tumbler with corn cob.
Ohh for hells sake... will someone get Kari Byron from Mythbusters to work this out already?
Seriously, that might not be a bad submittal for Mythbusters, plus Kari ain't all that shabby!
I recently had a similiar question come up in another Reloading Forum which I belong to. I contacted several of the Major Powder companies through the Contact Us links on their homepages. Here are the answers which I have received from the only two which have responded as of today.
My Question
A discussion within a Reloading Forum which I frequent has led me to ask
a question from the experts regarding Tumbling Reloaded Rifle cases.
What is the stance of your company regarding this practice?
Does tumbling loaded rounds effect the powders inside? Are some powders
effected more so than others? Example. Are the Stick or extruded
powders effected in the same manner as a Ball powder or flake type
powder?
Any input you might be able to give me would be greatly appreciated and shared within my reloading circle.
David Owens
rat31465
Alliant Powders Response 08/04/2009
We do not recommend tumbling loaded ammo. We are aware that this has
been done at times but it makes us very uncomfortable from a safety
standpoint. We have not conducted any testing to see if it negatively
affects the powder. Thanks for your note and have a nice day.
Ben Amonette
Consumer Service Manager
Alliant Powder Company
www.alliantpowder.com/
Hogdon Powder Co. 08/05/2009
Ammo should never be tumbled. The tumbling action will degrade the powder raising the burn speed and causing high pressure
Mike Daly
Customer Satisfaction Manager
The Hodgdon Family of fine propellants: Hodgdon Powder Company, IMR Powder Company, Winchester Smokeless Powders, GOEX Powder,
Pyrodex Company.
www.hodgdon.com/
None of them were as specific as I had hoped as I fear they do not want to be liable for any non-official statements.
So take the information for what it is worth.
Personally I have always been leary about tumbling loaded rounds for many reasons...the least of my concerns has been a possible detonation....This does look like a job for the Mythbusters as Zhurdan states.
freakshow10mm
08-05-09, 12:17
Was a thread on THR.O where loaded rounds were tumbled for three weeks straight 24 hours a day. Control was fired and these were fired. Chrono numbers were very similar (same in layman's). Heads miked the same.
Also, many manufacturers don't share inside processes and procedures with the public. I share some but not all. Some of the processes, equipment, and logistics of how my company makes its ammunition is for inside eyes and ears only and not for general public consumption. I gather my company isn't the only one out there that does this.
CryingWolf
08-05-09, 13:39
I recently had a similiar question come up in another Reloading Forum which I belong to. I contacted several of the Major Powder companies through the Contact Us links on their homepages. Here are the answers which I have received from the only two which have responded as of today.
My Question
A discussion within a Reloading Forum which I frequent has led me to ask
a question from the experts regarding Tumbling Reloaded Rifle cases.
What is the stance of your company regarding this practice?
Does tumbling loaded rounds effect the powders inside? Are some powders
effected more so than others? Example. Are the Stick or extruded
powders effected in the same manner as a Ball powder or flake type
powder?
Any input you might be able to give me would be greatly appreciated and shared within my reloading circle.
David Owens
rat31465
Alliant Powders Response 08/04/2009
We do not recommend tumbling loaded ammo. We are aware that this has
been done at times but it makes us very uncomfortable from a safety
standpoint. We have not conducted any testing to see if it negatively
affects the powder. Thanks for your note and have a nice day.
Ben Amonette
Consumer Service Manager
Alliant Powder Company
www.alliantpowder.com/
Hogdon Powder Co. 08/05/2009
Ammo should never be tumbled. The tumbling action will degrade the powder raising the burn speed and causing high pressure
Mike Daly
Customer Satisfaction Manager
The Hodgdon Family of fine propellants: Hodgdon Powder Company, IMR Powder Company, Winchester Smokeless Powders, GOEX Powder,
Pyrodex Company.
www.hodgdon.com/
None of them were as specific as I had hoped as I fear they do not want to be liable for any non-official statements.
So take the information for what it is worth.
Personally I have always been leary about tumbling loaded rounds for many reasons...the least of my concerns has been a possible detonation....This does look like a job for the Mythbusters as Zhurdan states.
Yeah, we must have hit Hodgdon at the same time. They must love fielding these questions :D
No, it is not recommended. Tumbling will degrade the powder causing an increase in burn speed.
Mike Daly
Customer Satisfaction Manager
The Hodgdon Family of fine propellants:
Hodgdon Powder Company
IMR Powder Company
Winchester Smokeless Powders
GOEX Powder Company
Pyrodex
Triple Seven
White Hots
Detonation is also my least fear from tumbling. Shoot I would rather blow up a $50 tumbler then a $1200 rifle.
Mythbusters is a show, a good one but I would like Underwriters Laboratories to research this one.
I just dont buy it, if this were true that means powder wouldnt be able to be shipped via ups trucks that vibrate. No flying loaded ammo to afghanistan for the troops cause the C-5's vibrate too much. Then soilders could not run with loaded mags on them during battle due to the powder in the rounds vibrating. All the powder manufactures are always gonna tell you no dont tumble loaded ammo because there lawyers told them to say that.
uscbigdawg
08-12-09, 11:33
I've tumbled hundreds of thousands of rounds of pistol ammo and rifle ammo. My rule is just don't pack the tumbler super full of ammo (so everything can actually tumble) and you'll be fine.
Pistol rounds in a small Dillon tumbler = 200-ish.
223 in a small Dillon tumbler = 100 is good.
Walnut media to remove the lube.
ZERO issues.
Rich
I don't tumble my finished pistol rounds but I do tumble my finished .223 rounds. My gun seems to get too much crap in the chamber from the lube that is left on the round so I started tumbling my finished .223 rounds. I have never had a problem.
A quick wipe with steel wool does it for me.
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