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PA PATRIOT
08-04-09, 15:49
Started a new thread to ask a very simple and honest question, I have visited most of the Disaster Planning Forums and found that many like to embellish on the gear and weapons that they own and would use in a true large scale emergency. We all live with the day to day bills which in these times consumes most of are incomes so sometimes we have to settle for the lower end of the quality spectrum for the gear we buy and use. This is not a wish list or hope to have one day thread but what you have "RIGHT NOW" if the SHTF this very moment. So post it up with pic's/links if you have them of the gear that will defend and support your family when the crap truly spatters into the fan.

I will post Pic's of my stuff once the wife locates were my kids hide the camera.

Chooie
08-04-09, 18:17
Right now I don't have much on hand, but it's probably more than most. This will have to support two adults and two small dogs.

3 cases of bottled water
1 case (12 meals) of MREs
1 case (10 packs) 3600 calorie Mainstay rations
cupboards and kitchen pantry full of dry foodstuffs (ramen, pasta, rice, beans, spices/salt, etc.)
cupboards full of canned veggies and fruit
2 20lb bags of dog food
plenty of flashlights, batteries, duct tape, pistol and shotgun ammo (rifle ammo is low except for .22) 2 way radios (FRS/GMRS and my rescue squad/police band radio), scanner, CB
7500w generator and 15 gal of fuel
a full tank of propane for the fireplace and backup stove
a full 20lb tank of propane for the grill
medium sized first aid/first responder medical kit
sturdy clothing and boots
bags/packs (probably not going to be bugging out - based on where we are, there is a much greater probability of bugging in, but it helps to keep stuff organized)
reading materials, board games, playing cards, blank notebooks and writing materials
misc. hand tools
mechanic's tools

Our water supply is a well on our property, and the well pump is wired into the breaker panel to be powered by the generator. We are on relative high ground, and sit smack in the middle of a 12 acre plot of land divided between two other family homes and a couple of horse pastures.

There's something to be said about living in the countryside... when I type out all the stuff we have on hand it seems like a lot, but to look around at what is here I see a lot of room for improvement.

I do think that if anything were to happen and we were forced to rely on what we had on hand, it would be supplemented by our other family members living nearby, who would likely want to congregate here (in-laws, brother in law, and his three young kids). That's it, though - no estranged relatives wanting to mooch supplies, or needy neighbors (most all are like minded and have their own supplies and plans). The generator is located behind the house, about 200' from the road, and is quite quiet for its size, so I don't anticipate that it will draw too much attention when we use it (basically, just to run a small fridge/freezer for perishables a few hours a day, and charge up 12v gel-cel batteries for backup lighting, as well as a large UPS to power the DSL modem and a laptop - should service resume it would be nice to have connectivity even without mains power).

Most of this stuff has been collected over the years, and was not purchased with emergency use in mind (except the generator), so there has been no real financial burden. The hardest part is figuring what would be useful and what would be wasteful to stockpile. 100 rounds of birdshot, 30 rounds of buckshot, and 5,000 rounds of .22 will go a hell of a lot further than 500 rounds of .223 (as much as I'd love to have a 20k round stockpile of ammo for an AR or two, it's just not in the cards for someone making 40k/year and building a family).

I think the most pressing issue we have is water. Three cases of 16oz bottles is just not enough for any sort of long-term situation. If our well is compromised we would be without water within a week (easily, even rationing it between us and the dogs - I'm just thankful that we have chihuahuas and not great danes).

Mac5.56
08-04-09, 20:21
Interesting thread, and a good way to get some of us thinking about our differing realities (both physically, financially, ecologically ect).

So here is my story:

I live in what would become a refugee camp if a major migration of people ever happened out of NYC. I am within shooting distance of the NY State Throughway, less then two hours from the city limits. Both my fiance and I have planned for and prepared ourselves for any emergency/shtf since we first met (6 years now). Our economic reality means we live in a town (small town), and also in an apartment.

Both of us consider it fact that ANY SHTF situation, or "attack", or infrastructure collapse that involves NYC will ultimately involve us. Bugging in for us means subjecting ourselves to a Katrina type situation, and considering that our neighbors are all elderly and un-prepared for anything, they will be a major drain on resources (sorry to say this but we're talking emergency). If a Katrina type emergency hit a 75 mile area of where I live, I would be in a Katrina type environment.

But bugging in is a reality that may be thrust upon us for a short time so for bugging in I have:

BUG IN
1. Enough jarred and canned (by hand) produce from gardens we have had over the past three years (at our past house) to provide for about 2 months.
2. Currently pickling about 2 gallons of cabbage.
3. Cupboards full of dried and easy to cook food.
4. A freezer full of food that will once defrosted will provide a weeks of fresh food.
5. Propane and white gas to cook on two cooks stoves if electric is lost.
6. Candles for light if need be.
7. A massive reserve of fresh water located in the boiler directly below our apartment that I will be using to fill multiple water bladders.
8. Enough ammunition to make me feel safe (some of the people on here would disagree, but I am more then content with my stockpile) Enough Ammo for my MP 15 to last through a non-long term SHTF, several boxes of Shotgun Shells for pump shot gun, and enough 30.30 rounds for my partner to compliment the AR-15 if need be.
9. We intentionally took a middle floor apartment to give us a field of fire out the window if need be, and to limit access from the ground, but also provide easy (jump capable) escape.
10. Surefire flash light, utility knife, automatic knife.
11. Two gas/particle respirators as well as two sets of goggles for police sanctioned gas attacks (trust me it works).
12. Non-Lethal chemical attack first aid supplies.
13. First Aid Kit including CPR mask, my fiances medication, ext.

[10 - 13 are completely mobile as are 8 and the guns so I will not repeat them in the bug out scenario]

BUG OUT:

1. The most important thing we have is knowledge of our area. Very broad knowledge, combined with a location that is remote and within a reasonable destination, multiple ways to get there, and a plan.
2. We always have enough gas in our vehicles to get there. This is a no-brainer, but ask yourself how many times you or friends drop below a 1/4 tank, and you'll see how easy it is to forget.
3. All of the things mentioned above in brackets
4. Two back packs, one is a Kelty for my Fiance, and one is an old internal frame from teh 70's for me that I don't like and am currently replacing, but it is what I have. Will have an Elberstock G4 Operator before the end of the month. In these packs we have a basic set of rations that will get us by for about a week. Not super long, but long enough for the two of us to start to do what we do which is be out doors.
5. Two 1 liter water bottles each.
6. MSR water filter.
7. MSR white gas cook stove
8. Water proof contour maps of our entire county and the two adjacent.
9. Two compases (and for that mater two sets of knives, utility knives, ext).
10 A two person light weight, internal frame (there are no poles you pull "out" of the fabric) Walrus backpacking tent. We have set this thing up in down pours in under five minutes, including fly. And it's DRY. Best tent I have ever owned.
11. Two 0 degree rated sleeping bags (these could be of better quality, one is better then the other).
12. Two sets of under armor underwear, five sets of hiking socks, a pair of Salomon hiking boots I love, and clothing rugged enough to not need washing. (this is my summer kit)
13. The last and second most important thing is that we both have the physical capability of moving this stuff. We train every week in the outdoors, doing no less then 8 miles a day on some of the hardest single elevation gains I have ever done in my life (and I grew up backpacking in Wyoming). When the day comes, if it comes, we can move fast on every end of the spectrum including the hiking.

I can go on about my Bug Out kit, but I think you get the idea...:)

PA PATRIOT
08-04-09, 21:43
The one thing I read the most is that people state they have a Bug-In set-up, Bug-Out in a Vehicle bag and a Bug-out on foot back pack. I would say all would have to be independent from another so if you had to transaction from one mode to another it could be done immediately without trying to grab parts of one to add to another. Now firearms/Mag's/Ammo and support gear is a no brainier as they can be used for all situations if the total weight is kept to were adding a pack to your back does not cause a coronary. Now does everyone do this or would you have to hunt around to collect everything to may need from the main Bug-In supply.

Mac5.56
08-05-09, 02:29
If you have packs in the back of your car (post bug out), and two sleeping bags ready to strap on with beaners, why is there an issue between car and foot? They are one in the same, you just ditch the ride. As for the house, it's pretty small, I know where everything is.

Outlander Systems
08-05-09, 22:05
I'll go over this topic some more, once I've done some inventory.

I recently moved into a new house, and my "office" is like a tactical gear/computer equipment/book junkyard. In short, a total train wreck.

I can state that nothing I've posted on this topic is an embellishment of any sort. If anything, I'm WAY under equipped.

I still have not purchased the Steripen or any water treatment for that matter, yet.

Buying stuff for the house has recently put tactical/doomer gear on hold for a minute. Being put on an indefinite 20-hour a week furlough sure hasn't helped preps either.

Most recently, I've added an extra 50lb bag of rice. COSTCO's selling it at, what I consider to be, a steal: $15.00!

As well, I've discovered that at Wal*Mart, the 5 gallon paint buckets are actually food grade. A buddy of mine phoned the manufacturer in Ohio, and was told that:

1) These buckets ARE food-grade
2) They're not marketed as such

Good news, on that front. They're perfect for bulk food storage.

My "doom" scenario involves bugging-in, unless circumstances prevent that. I'd definitely not like to participate in any ensuing chaos from some sort of calamitous event. I'd rather park my fat ass on the couch, drink stockpiles of wine, and eat Ramen™. :cool:

Bugging out is a different adventure altogether. I'm trying to organise my kit into "modular" format, so that they can work individually for tasks, but compliment each other as a whole, if that makes any sense.

I ditched my Ranger RD-9 knife for a RAT-7 recently as well.

I highly recommend considering barter items for a doom-economy as well. Booze and smokes are high on my list, since I'll use 'em up, doom or no doom.

Unfortunately, my stockpiling of lamp oil has hit an abrupt halt. Wal*Mart, the sole purveyor of the 64oz bottles of Lamplighter fluid, no longer carries it. Alternate sources of procurement are hard to come buy, if not impossible. I know of no others that stock it in my area, which is a severe let down.

I've been hoarding the 80oz bottles of SoftSoap™ as well, since, like booze and tobacco, I've always got a use for it.

Typically, I've avoided freeze-dried/MRE type meals, since they're not something I eat on a daily basis. I haven't ruled them out, but I also haven't placed a Code Red priority on them.

I'm trying to get back into the doomer fray, but with the recent move, it's been tough.

Mac5.56
08-05-09, 22:47
smokes is a good one! Never thought of that. After knowing someone who was an ex-pat in Angola I can tell you that smokes/chew are gold in a barter system. I carry hand rolled.

rob_s
08-06-09, 05:19
I have visited most of the Disaster Planning Forums and found that many like to embellish on the gear and weapons that they own and would use in a true large scale emergency.
I wonder how you arrive at this conclusion.


So post it up with pic's/links if you have them of the gear that will defend and support your family when the crap truly spatters into the fan.
Maybe it's just me, and maybe my tinfoil is on a bit too tight, but there comes a point where that doesn't seem like a very smart thing to do.

However...

Some of your extrapolations and conclusions are a bit odd.

Car:foot isn't really that complicated at all. big Rubbermaid tub for bug-in/bug-out, with a pack inside filled with the bare necessities. Drag out the tub post-disaster if staying home and make use of the contents, or throw the tub in the vehicle pre-disaster if evacuating. Vehicle gets bogged down and you need to transition to foot? Open the tub, grab the pack(s) and get moving.

You also make it sound like bugging in or bugging out is some big dramatical event. If your preparations are made with an eye towards a Red Dawn scenario then maybe so, but I've been force-evac'd more than a few times due to hurricanes and I've "bugged in" quite a bit as well. Frankly even with zero prep time I was able to gather the basics, throw them in the car, and leave, and post-hurricane even with no power and twice in strange houses with ZERO done to prep we were more than comfortable with what was in the house the day before the storm.

Unless you're preparing for global meltdown or you're living in a shack in New Orleans, the only real preparation you need is a credit card to get the **** out of the cesspool post-disaster.

and frankly most people are ill-prepared to deal with any kind of global meltdown if that's your thing. Too many people think that surviving one of these events has much at all to do with the case of MREs in yourr closet and the 15k rounds in your garage.

6933
08-06-09, 10:59
rob-Couldn't agree more. I've done the last minute hurricane preparedness and with an educated idea of what you need, it is possible. Two days before, not a problem. Day before, might not be able to get quantities of what you need, but supplies will exist.

MRE's and thousands of rounds; like you say, that's not prepared. Mil would drop them off to me in NOLA-bugged in-and they take getting use to. If that's all you have, that's all you have. But if your body isn't use to them, and in a disaster scenario, the craps can be a big deal. Be prepared and stock other food. But, to be prepared, there is so much more to it than ammo. and MRE's. If one is made of money, then getting seriously prepared can take several months. That's if there is no building, retrofitting, etc. going on. Becoming proficient with a pistol and AR takes many, many hours of training that most likely must be paid for; at least starting out. My upcoming classes have had me saving for months and scrounging Wally Worlds all over the place for ammo.

For me, preparation is a continuously evolving process that has been going on and will continue to go on.

Outlander Systems
08-06-09, 11:08
I think "survivalists", despite being marginalised in the LameStream Media, are more appreciative of the amenities modern society affords us.

Lord knows I am.

I have a tremendous amount of respect for how precious civilisation is, as well as how fragile a thing she be.

I agree with Rob, to a certain extent.

Contrary to "consumers" consuming consumables, preparations are more than just buying one's way out of calamity.

Gathering items for a rainy day is very important, and I won't negate that fact; however, in terms of "true" preparedness one must always be mindful that MacGuyver rules the day, not Rambo.

I tend to think about what things I really truly appreciate in modern society, and what I would truly be heartbroken to go without. Number one on that list, impossible to procure in a catastrophe:

Ice Cream.

A world without ice cream is, well, damned frightening.

RFB
08-07-09, 00:30
I think that (and some have touched upon it) there is a distinction between a widespread regional/national emergency situation (insert cause here) and the more localized hurricane/earthquake/T attack type of event.

The latter can be quite severe, but the duration is relatively short. Simple but prudent preparation is all that is really needed.

The first type could be long-term, and significantly changes how one will craft a solution. I have lived in extremely high-density metro areas as well as East Moose Nipple, County Seat population of 600.
Regardless of location, if you are not from there, in the first type mentioned (long-duration regional/national) you will be greeted at very least with intense scrutiny and skepticism. At that moment, you are a refugee. Ponder the impact of that identity.

Mac5.56
08-07-09, 15:16
At that moment, you are a refugee. Ponder the impact of that identity.

And ponder the impact of walking into that moment with a chest rig, fifteen mags of ammo, and a slung AR... :D In some of the areas of the country I've been you wouldn't make it more then twenty feet as a well armed stranger.

PA PATRIOT
08-07-09, 17:50
Most people feel safe in large numbers even if they don't know one another (Heard Affect) before "Organization" sets in and as resources are drained the larger groups start weeding out the "Liabilities" of that group. If your armed presences is a plus for that group most likely you would be allowed to stay as you offer a service to that group. The unprepared and the truly clueless would be discarded as to limit or stop the drain of resources of the whole. I don't see the break down of America unless wide spread deadly pandemic or a meteor hit occurred, but never say never and having a few goodies in the shelter can never hurt.

Armati
08-09-11, 21:42
As a general rule a few things to keep on hand at all times in the event you have to bug in, or until the roads clear so you can bug out:

Frozen food - eat this first. Keep packs simple meat (beef and chicken) on hand at all times.

1-2 gallons of Clorox bleach - water purification and sanitation.

Canned food of all types - about a 30 day supply. Be realistic. When something is on special, buy it.

Activated charcoal - water filtration and poison control.

Cases of water - one per man at a minimum.

Ammo - 1000rds per rifle at a minimum. 500rds per pistol/shotgun. If your shotgun is your only long gun then stock 1000rds. When violence occurres, it may spin wildly out of control. Check out Jim Rawles take on the Golden Horde.

A way to cook on the grill, propane or charcoal. Even if you live in the city and have grill on the fire escape.

Fire extinguishers - ABC in the 10lb class at a minimum. At least one per man. When fire breaks out, everyone is a firefighter. Also augment with fire blankets and sand.

Plastic drop cloth, heavy duty aluminum foil, duct tape - seriously, 1001 uses.

Lighters - I like the long stick kind.

docsherm
08-10-11, 02:30
If you have packs in the back of your car (post bug out), and two sleeping bags ready to strap on with beaners, why is there an issue between car and foot? They are one in the same, you just ditch the ride. As for the house, it's pretty small, I know where everything is.

You are 100% correct. Your car load-out should just be your on foot load out with some extra stuff added.

northern1
08-10-11, 04:53
I'm confused..... I thought the name of this thread was "Bug-in/Bug-out Defensive Gear"

To me tents, MRE's and water aren't defensive. They're all fine and dandy and I have stock in them all but what's defensive about it ?

I thought this was going to delve into the debate of carbine Vs rifle Vs shotgun Vs pistol in regards to bugging-in or bugging-out and maybe secondary items like edged tools and non-lethal

docsherm
08-10-11, 05:06
I'm confused..... I thought the name of this thread was "Bug-in/Bug-out Defensive Gear"

To me tents, MRE's and water aren't defensive. They're all fine and dandy and I have stock in them all but what's defensive about it ?

I thought this was going to delve into the debate of carbine Vs rifle Vs shotgun Vs pistol in regards to bugging-in or bugging-out and maybe secondary items like edged tools and non-lethal

I just went back and reread the OP and you are 100% correct. I guess it people thought it was a complete list of what they have.

I then have agree with Rob_s form his post. I am not going to tell everyone on the Web what I have and how much I have of it. That is rule #1 of OPSEC / PERSEC.

Redmanfms
08-11-11, 18:03
Weapons:

A centerfire pistol that I almost always have on my person, either a Sig 229 9mm or a Colt Series 70 .45 (usually the Colt).

Buck 110 folding knife, it's always in my pants pocket when I leave the house.

Leatherman Wave, also always in a pocket when I leave the house.


In the vehicle GHK I have a Level IIIA vest and .22 pistol with a brick of ammunition.

I'm leery of carrying a rifle openly in an emergency situation (except on my own property). I know what I'd think if I saw some stranger traipsing across my land carrying a rifle during a SHTF event; I'd assume a rifle-armed man is a serious threat. I would only keep somebody like that under observation until they became an overt threat, but plenty of others would likely shoot first and ask questions later.

northern1
08-11-11, 18:44
From what we saw during Katrina with cavilians being disarmed by LE/MIL I have a lot of questions regarding what to use and when as well as where. I read an ineresting article years ago from a guy who lived through some civil unrest situation somewhere in S. America, I forget the details, but what I remember is him saying all the bad ass high powered high speed shit like AR's and AK's don't come into play that much. Its all about concealability. He still had to comute to work everyday. He wore soft body armor and carried a pistol.

If you live on a ranch in Texas or on top of some ridge in Idaho then I'd think rifles for primary arm all day. Live in a populated are or need to travel through one and your going to need pistols. The questions is will therebe check points with searches ? Will they find the pistol on your person or the long arm in your trunk ? And then what are the reprocusions then ?

Just stuff I ponder. I think we all know idealy a semi auto rifle accompanied by a pistol and a blade is where its at but it might not be that simple. Unfortunately.

polymorpheous
08-11-11, 19:23
OPSEC/PERSEC huh?

http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=70377

http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=32954

http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=82318

http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=86583

http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=85857

Need I go on?
Anyone responding to any of these threads need not worry about PERSEC.

Just a Jarhead
08-12-11, 02:57
Regarding OPSEC, I'm not worried about some guy from Wisconsin figuring out who I am and exactly where I live based on my screen name to come and TRY to steal my cans of pulled chicken when shtf or my ammo.

Regarding the Gov. If you're visiting this site or one of a zillion others, your OPSEC is blown. If they desired they can capture your IP address of your computer of everyone coming to this or any other site and track you down. If you're a registered Republican, a member of the Tea Party, have a concealed carry license, bought ammo or gun parts with a credit card...you're probably on some sort of list...done any searches on Google lately?...your OPSEC was blown a long time ago. The "artificial intelligence" software they have today is mindblowing & can cross reference everything about you. Even your electric bill to see if it's gone up or down to determine if you have visitors or you are away & cross refernece everyone of your acquaintances to determine who your visitor might be with almost pinpoint accuracy. It's mindblowing what they can do today. Only way to fix blown OPSEC is to move quickly when the time comes!

Many people talk about grouping together in the neighborhood. This is where I tread with extreme trepidation! This is what concerns me as the most immediate threat to my OPSEC beside the Gov. of course. I'm not worried about telling some guy half way around the country that I have stored some food and a water filter or responded to a M4C poll. I already fall into most of the other categories above! As probably do most of you. If we're going to get paranoid about OPSEC, and we should be, close to home is where our energies should lie. Be worried about the gun toting liberal union guy 3 doors down who is clueless and hasn't stored any food! Not someone 1500 miles away who doesn't even know my name.

northern1
08-12-11, 03:28
It kind of defeats the purpose of these forums if we can't talk about the subjects the forum and sub forums pertain to. I'm aware of what time it is. Between technology and over zealousness of certain agencys I don't doubt tabs are being kept. But I have nothing to hide so I'll keep on with my right to free speech.

At the same time I have witnessed people on public forums say things I might have kept to myself if I were in their situation. There is a time and place for everything.

I think technology is freedoms bigest threat

Bad Medicine
08-12-11, 10:35
I haven't posted here in a while, just been reading and taking in. Anyways beside all of this opsec stuff, here's my list of firearms for both situations.
PWS MK116
PWS MK 214
HK MK 23
HK 45 V1
HK 45CT
S&W .357 329pd
XDm 9mm

Edged weapons
Boker Applegate dagger
Chris Reeves Pacific
Kurkri (no not because of Hollywood either, my wife's uncle has one given to him from a Gurkha, he loves it to death and recently picked me up one when he was in the middle east).

I don't believe in restricting myself to one caliber, I also think it is a good idea to keep calibers used by the military and LE.

polymorpheous
08-12-11, 16:20
Regarding OPSEC, I'm not worried about some guy from Wisconsin figuring out who I am and exactly where I live based on my screen name to come and TRY to steal my cans of pulled chicken when shtf or my ammo.

Regarding the Gov. If you're visiting this site or one of a zillion others, your OPSEC is blown. If they desired they can capture your IP address of your computer of everyone coming to this or any other site and track you down. If you're a registered Republican, a member of the Tea Party, have a concealed carry license, bought ammo or gun parts with a credit card...you're probably on some sort of list...done any searches on Google lately?...your OPSEC was blown a long time ago. The "artificial intelligence" software they have today is mindblowing & can cross reference everything about you. Even your electric bill to see if it's gone up or down to determine if you have visitors or you are away & cross refernece everyone of your acquaintances to determine who your visitor might be with almost pinpoint accuracy. It's mindblowing what they can do today. Only way to fix blown OPSEC is to move quickly when the time comes!

Many people talk about grouping together in the neighborhood. This is where I tread with extreme trepidation! This is what concerns me as the most immediate threat to my OPSEC beside the Gov. of course. I'm not worried about telling some guy half way around the country that I have stored some food and a water filter or responded to a M4C poll. I already fall into most of the other categories above! As probably do most of you. If we're going to get paranoid about OPSEC, and we should be, close to home is where our energies should lie. Be worried about the gun toting liberal union guy 3 doors down who is clueless and hasn't stored any food! Not someone 1500 miles away who doesn't even know my name.

I wasn't talking about you.
My point is that RobS started multiple threads polling member as to why they train, what slings they run, etc, etc...
I found it odd for him of all people to chime in on this thread and say he wouldn't divulge his bug out kit per OPSEC/PERSEC.

Just a Jarhead
08-12-11, 16:21
gotchya!

Moose-Knuckle
08-13-11, 02:37
After the boating accident all I'm left with is a Swiss Army knife and a sling shot.

polymorpheous
08-13-11, 07:17
After the boating accident all I'm left with is a Swiss Army knife and a sling shot.

Classic!
:lol:

NoveskeFan
08-13-11, 08:59
My defensive firearms (or offensive if the Krispy Kreme "Hot" light is on) in photo form. I really didnt feel like photographing all the ammo, and I only have regular pocket knives...so not gonna post that:

Pistols
http://i523.photobucket.com/albums/w354/jamesbaezan/IMG_0041.jpg

Long Guns
http://i523.photobucket.com/albums/w354/jamesbaezan/IMG_0042.jpg

Redmanfms
08-20-11, 21:20
From what we saw during Katrina with cavilians being disarmed by LE/MIL I have a lot of questions regarding what to use and when as well as where. I read an ineresting article years ago from a guy who lived through some civil unrest situation somewhere in S. America, I forget the details, but what I remember is him saying all the bad ass high powered high speed shit like AR's and AK's don't come into play that much. Its all about concealability. He still had to comute to work everyday. He wore soft body armor and carried a pistol.

If you live on a ranch in Texas or on top of some ridge in Idaho then I'd think rifles for primary arm all day. Live in a populated are or need to travel through one and your going to need pistols. The questions is will therebe check points with searches ? Will they find the pistol on your person or the long arm in your trunk ? And then what are the reprocusions then ?

Just stuff I ponder. I think we all know idealy a semi auto rifle accompanied by a pistol and a blade is where its at but it might not be that simple. Unfortunately.

It was Argentina after/during their little economic disaster (governmental default) back in 2001. The poster was a guy named "ferfal."

I don't know where his original posts are anymore (I had them on my old hard drive), but this is his current blog:

http://ferfal.blogspot.com/

ETA: He wrote a book too:

http://www.amazon.com/Modern-Survival-Manual-Surviving-Economic/dp/9870563457

ETA #2: Devotees of Tappan aren't going to like what a guy who actually lived through a real SHTF has to say about practical survival. You were warned.

a1fabweld
08-20-11, 21:31
Nice collection Kimber.

NoveskeFan
08-20-11, 22:03
Nice collection Kimber.

Thanks! Im thinking of replacing the Type II phaser with a Glock 19...;)

Armati
08-21-11, 01:34
http://www.amazon.com/Modern-Survival-Manual-Surviving-Economic/dp/9870563457

ETA #2: Devotees of Tappan aren't going to like what a guy who actually lived through a real SHTF has to say about practical survival. You were warned.

Agreed.

From the Amazon reviews section:

By small corgi "smcorgi" (Wayne, PA United States) - See all my reviews
This review is from: The Modern Survival Manual: Surviving the Economic Collapse (Paperback)
1)The mindset of the American survivalist movement was set by Mel Tappan several decades ago: a) Retreat to a small town 400 miles or so from large cities b) Become self-sufficient. By and large, other survivalist writers have uncritically accepted Mel Tappan's strategy --because they wrote based on uncritical acceptance of a theory, not on actual practical experience.

2) However, Ferfal argues persuasively against Tappan's strategy based on Ferfal's experiences in surviving Argentina's economic collapse. He notes that government will always survive, that it will confiscate food and other supplies from the countryside to feed the cities, and that it will maintain the rule of law. All of which significantly affect one's survival plans and stockpiling. For example, he notes that open carry of assault rifles will get you arrested and imprisoned (the wealthy will ALWAYS maintain a police force to protect them) -- and that a concealed pistol and folding pocketknife is more practical.

3) Money will be of PRIME importance --not a curious artifact. Mel Tappan could afford to ignore this because he had married an wealthy heiress.

4) Ferfal agrees with Mel Tappan that isolated retreats in the rural countryside are likely to become what police called "secondary crime scenes" --places where residents are tortured by bandits into revealing hidden stores and are then murdered. He and Tappan both agreed on the importance of being part of a tight-knit, mutually-protective community.

3) What led American survivalists --and Mel Tappan -- into error was that they lacked security clearances and hence knowledge of US Government plans to maintain itself and its control even in the worst disaster: Major Nuclear War. Declassifed FEMA documents show a massive effort by the Government to relocate officials to emergency bunkers, to maintain control through hardened communications networks, and to seize essential resources (food stockpiles,etc) as soon as fallout radiation declines using databases of where the warehouses are located. This to supplement the US Government's own huge caches. Google "FEMA 160 Recovery From Nuclear Attack" or "Atchison Storage Facility".

4) Ferfal's view of the post-disaster environment is far more probable and realistic than Tappan's -- and hence his plans, advice, tactics, and equipment recommendations are more valuable.

5) By the way, anyone planning to retreat to Montana should Google "Malmstrom Air Force Base" and look at FEMA's predicted fallout radiation levels for that state if the Russians ever attack the Minuteman complex buried there. They might also read Jared Diamond's "Collapse" re the fate of isolated colonies like Viking Greenland, Easter Island and the Anazazi settlements in New Mexico. The only places
left with low populations are marginal for agriculture and would die off in the first drought.

...............................................................................................

I would agree with all of the above. "The System" is a living organism with a serious desire to protect it's self. Security aparachiks will be employed and taken care of. The National Guard will be called in they (and their families) will enjoy a higher standard of living than most other folks. Useful goods and land will be confiscated, cataloged and redistributed. Remember Waco and Randy Weaver? This was in an environment where The System felt highly restrained. In the event of Total System Collapse, The System will take whatever means necessary. In the mean while, individual citizens will have to pretty much fend for themselves and will be treated much like refugees even if they are well prepared. The best thing you can do in such situations is to be the 'grey man' or 'grey family.'

This has played out time and again in resent history - Bosnia, Haiti, Katrina and the like.

Moose-Knuckle
08-21-11, 01:54
ETA #2: Devotees of Tappan aren't going to like what a guy who actually lived through a real SHTF has to say about practical survival. You were warned.

No "devotee" here. In another thread I merely quoted his work. In Survival Guns he actually disses the Colt AR and praises the Ruger Mini-14. :suicide2:

Moose-Knuckle
08-21-11, 02:27
I would agree with all of the above. "The System" is a living organism with a serious desire to protect it's self. Security aparachiks will be employed and taken care of. The National Guard will be called in they (and their families) will enjoy a higher standard of living than most other folks. Useful goods and land will be confiscated, cataloged and redistributed. Remember Waco and Randy Weaver? This was in an environment where The System felt highly restrained. In the event of Total System Collapse, The System will take whatever means necessary. In the mean while, individual citizens will have to pretty much fend for themselves and will be treated much like refugees even if they are well prepared. The best thing you can do in such situations is to be the 'grey man' or 'grey family.'

This has played out time and again in resent history - Bosnia, Haiti, Katrina and the like.

Spot on. COG, continuity of government refers to the continued functioning of constitutional government under all circumstances. I liken our goverment to Cyberdyne System's Skynet of The Terminator fame as they are self aware and will do ANYTHING to ensure their survival.

A few examples:

Operation Garden Plot

Operation Cable Splicer

HOLD ON TO YOUR DOOKIE, IT'S ABOUT TO GET SPOOKY. . .

EO, Executive Orders:

10995--Federal seizure of all communications media in the United States;
10997--Federal seizure of all electric power, fuels, minerals, public and private;
10998--Federal seizure of all food supplies and resources, public and private and all farms and equipment;
10999--Federal seizure of all means of transportation, including cars, trucks, or vehicles of any kind and total control over all highways, seaports and water ways;
11000--Federal seizure of American people for work forces under federal supervision, including the splitting up of families if the government so desires;
11001--Federal seizure of all health, education and welfare facilities, both public and private;
11002--Empowers the Postmaster General to register all men, women and children in the United States of America;
11003--Federal seizure of all airports and aircraft;
11004--Federal seizure of all housing and finances and authority to establish Forced Relocation. Authority to designate areas to be abandoned as "unsafe," establish new locations for the populations, relocate communities, build new housing with public funds;
11005--Seizure of all railroads, inland waterways and storage facilities, both public and private;
11051--Provides FEMA complete authorization to put above orders into effect in times of increased international tension of economic or financial crisis (FEMA will be in control in case of "National Emergency").

Just a Jarhead
08-21-11, 04:55
4) Ferfal agrees with Mel Tappan that isolated retreats in the rural countryside are likely to become what police called "secondary crime scenes" --places where residents are tortured by bandits into revealing hidden stores and are then murdered. He and Tappan both agreed on the importance of being part of a tight-knit, mutually-protective community.


I read Fernando Ferfal Aguierre's book several times to thoroughly digest the advice everything someone wth firsthand experience of an economic collapse had experienced. I think someone's sense for the need of a retreat is influenced by where they live.

I tend to be proponent of having a "retreat" because of where I live. South Florida. Huge disparity between the "haves" & have nots". Extremely multi-cultural. Large Jamiacan, Haitian and Guetemalan, Mexican and other South American's all with their own well armed gang problems. Highly transient area with little sense of community in general which is why the Trade Towers bombers hung out here prior to their sinister act. It is a sheer tinderbox awaiting the fuse. The rudest, coldest place in America! Yes even worse so than NY. Someone in rural North Dakota or Utah may not fully understand the threat some of us are surrounded by on a daily basis.

That said, the only way I would even consider spending considerable money on a retreat would be if it was sufficiently fortified structurally and with sufficient defenders, defensive plans and strategy including intrusion detection devices for advanced intel. I'd take my chances with a hand full of other military (or civilian) well trained individuals. But to move to a cabin with me & my wife only...nada! Better to try and stay put, bug-in and hope that others like me will surface in my nearby community to defend it.

I would also keep in mind that economic collapse is not our only threat and that Argentina did not have every terrorist in the world gunning for it with Hezbollah now camped out on its southern border just waiting, or how many sleeper cells are in this country already just lying in wait for the opportune time? When do you suppose that opportune time to strike would/could be if you wanted to finally kill "the big satan" once & for all? Could be a huge big difference between situations in Argentina and the good ole US of A. Could be I said.

Robryan
08-30-11, 21:04
One item I have found that would be a truly SHTF item is to buy about a dozen of those led lights that you put around your yard. Walmart sells them for 2 dollars each. I bought several and put much better batteries in them. Set them out to recharge each day and set them around each room in the house and you can walk around perfectly. Plus each one is a battery charger and can charge 2 AA batteries during the day. Would make a great barter item for just 2 dollars each.

NWPilgrim
08-31-11, 03:31
Bug in defensive gear is easy: all of it! I have several rifles I can use for HD like AR15s, Garands, M1 Carbines, shotgun and even a PRT91. And several tried and true pistols such as Glocks, 1911, HP, S&W .38, and a Makarov. And several .22LR pistols and rifles for the pests. These are the guns I practice with the most. Backed up by 30K rounds of ammo and then reloading components. My primary ones would be the Glocks and AR15s.

Bugging out would be for special circumstance. We live in a decent suburb in which we have many close friends and of course all of our supplies. So our best option is to stay put. If we bug out it will be by car and we will keep a low profile and avoid contact with FEMA and any other officials. In that case I would take a couple of Glocks, the P3AT, and the two AR15s, and an ammo can each of my "ready" stock of .40 and .223. If we had room I might take the .38 and an M1 Carbine for "less of the black rifle look" and keep the Glocks and ARs more concealed.

If this was something really bad and I needed to get out semi-permanent, then I would bugging out with as much food, clothes and guns/ammo as I can stuff in the van and strap on top and heading to another state at a relative's remote getaway. I don't know what would ever drive me to that, but it is a Plan C.

If for some reason we needed to evacuate on foot then it better not be too far as my wife is not making a long foot journey. Then it would be the bare essentials in a couple of day packs and getting to a friend out in the farming area. I'd just be taking two Glocks and several mags of ammo in that case, and minimum food, water, clothes, first-aid, survival kit.

But again, bugging out is not high on my to do list. far more danger on the road and far less supplies and equipment. Only if a severe threat arose specific to my location would I consider leaving.