View Full Version : Form 1 -"overall length"
I'm filling out a form 1 for a SBR I'm putting together. How do I fill out the "overall" length question? Stock fully extended or collapsed?
I did a quick search and the only answer to a similar question was, "either one".
What is correct?
It would be with the stock extended. This is what I have always used.
decodeddiesel
08-04-09, 17:36
It would be with the stock extended. This is what I have always used.
This is the correct answer.
Thanks guys.
As for the, "why your building this firearm" question... i put "For any and all legal purposes". I'm intereted in what others have put.
Again thanks...
decodeddiesel
08-04-09, 17:53
Thanks guys.
As for the, "why your building this firearm" question... i put "For any and all legal pourpuses". I'm intereted in what others have put.
Again thanks...
For all legal what? Dude a Form 1 is not something to have a spelling error on.
I have used "To enhance collection and all other legal purposes" in the past.
Used for recreational use and collector item.
For all legal what? Dude a Form 1 is not something to have a spelling error on.
I have used "To enhance collection and all other legal purposes" in the past.
No worries, the form was filled out correctly. The post was made on my cell phone, fixed now.
I'm mildly dyslexic, spell check is my friend. ;)
This is the correct answer.
Why? Wouldn't it be the shortest length the firearm is. Short seems to be the watchword in SBR. I asked a former leader here and he always uses the collaped length.
Why? Wouldn't it be the shortest length the firearm is. Short seems to be the watchword in SBR. I asked a former leader here and he always uses the collaped length.
SBR = Short Barrel Rifle. An SBR is a rifle with a barrel length less than 16" and does not refer to the overall length.
SBR = Short Barrel Rifle. An SBR is a rifle with a barrel length less than 16" and does not refer to the overall length.
Wow, ya got me dude, I would have never known that. :rolleyes: Do you have a reason why extended would be the correct answer?
Wow, ya got me dude, I would have never known that. :rolleyes: Do you have a reason why extended would be the correct answer?
I have no idea of knowing how much knowledge you have concerning NFA weapons and I was trying to eliminate some confusion for you. Obviously you didn't know what the acronym meant otherwise you wouldn't have stated:
Short seems to be the watchword in SBR :rolleyes: Or you're having difficulties with reading comprehension as the acronym stands for, Short Barrel Rifle. Not SOLR, or Short Overall Length Rifle, for the uninitiated.
There are a few different classifications that I am aware of regarding NFA firearms. They are SBR, Machine Gun, AOW (Any Other Weapon), Rifle/carbine (Title 1) and Pistol (Title 1). The reason for the overall length question is due to the rules & regulations concerning different classifications of weapons and how they fit into these categories.
Feel free to ask any more questions and I'll do my best to help.
I have no idea of knowing how much knowledge you have concerning NFA weapons and I was trying to eliminate some confusion for you. Obviously you didn't know what the acronym meant otherwise you wouldn't have stated: :rolleyes: Or you're having difficulties with reading comprehension as the acronym stands for, Short Barrel Rifle. Not SOLR, or Short Overall Length Rifle, for the uninitiated.
There are a few different classifications that I am aware of regarding NFA firearms. They are SBR, Machine Gun, AOW (Any Other Weapon), Rifle/carbine (Title 1) and Pistol (Title 1). The reason for the overall length question is due to the rules & regulations concerning different classifications of weapons and how they fit into these categories.
Feel free to ask any more questions and I'll do my best to help.
You have no idea what I do or don't know. Do you know a reason why extended would be the correct answer on a Form 1?
Irishluck, you are 100% incorrect.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/search/display.html?terms=short%20barreled&url=/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000921----000-.html
(8) The term “short-barreled rifle” means a rifle having one or more barrels less than sixteen inches in length and any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if such weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches.
An SBR classification applies to a weapon that may have a 16.1" barrel but an OAL of 25.5". It was this condition that got Randy Weaver caught up with the ATF, but in regards to a short barrel shotgun not a short barrel rifle. He cut the barrels to the legal length, but the stock had a childs length of pull and therefore was shorter than the 26" allowed in the SBS classification.
Also indicated in Definition 1c. on the pages of the ATF Form 1 here:
http://www.atf.gov/forms/pdfs/f53201.pdf
Why? Wouldn't it be the shortest length the firearm is. Short seems to be the watchword in SBR. I asked a former leader here and he always uses the collaped length.
I also use the collapsed length, as it's the shortest it will get. I have seen a letter floating around instructing another ATF "customer" to use stock extended.
It's my belief that ATF letters tend to apply only to those they are addressed, because circumstances can vary wildly from person to person.
SBR = Short Barrel Rifle. An SBR is a rifle with a barrel length less than 16" and does not refer to the overall length.
Well, US Code, Title 18, Part I, Chapter, Sec. 921 defines a Short Barrel Rifle as:
(8) The term “short-barreled rifle” means a rifle having one or more barrels less than sixteen inches in length and any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if such weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches.
So any rifle that has an overall length of less then 26" is technically a SBR. Now admittedly that would be had to accomplish with a barrel longer then 16" in length, at least in an AR platform.
Oh, seem I was beat too it.
Now admittedly that would be had to accomplish with a barrel longer then 16" in length, at least in an AR platform.
22lr conversion with a 16" barrel and very little extension could do it. :eek:
collapsed length length make sense because it is the shortest possible length, tough not likely to be used in that matter. Many people don't used it completely extended either, so it could be used anywhere in between.
Seems there is no consensus on the issue. :confused:
Seems there is no consensus on the issue. :confused:
Personally, I would call the NFA number tomorrow. Do NOT write a letter for the love of God!!!!
Ask them what they prefer to see on the form. They should be able to answer this rather mundane question.
CleverNickname
08-04-09, 19:40
27 CFR 479.11 states "The overall length of a weapon made from a shotgun or rifle is the distance between the extreme ends of the weapon measured along a line parallel to the center line of the bore." The ATF interprets "extreme ends of the weapon" to mean all stocks are extended or unfolded to their maximum length.
22lr conversion with a 16" barrel and very little extension could do it. :eek:
True, I guess it could be done with a piston system and a very short stock also.
At any rate the point is:
Barrel under 16" or OAL under 26" = SBR
27 CFR 479.11 states "The overall length of a weapon made from a shotgun or rifle is the distance between the extreme ends of the weapon measured along a line parallel to the center line of the bore." The ATF interprets "extreme ends of the weapon" to mean all stocks are extended or unfolded to their maximum length.
Awesome, thanks for finding it!!! I guess my forms are off by a couple inches on OAL.
Page 89 righthand column, under "Firearms (h)":
http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2006/aprqtr/pdf/27cfr479.11.pdf
27 CFR 479.11 states "The overall length of a weapon made from a shotgun or rifle is the distance between the extreme ends of the weapon measured along a line parallel to the center line of the bore." The ATF interprets "extreme ends of the weapon" to mean all stocks are extended or unfolded to their maximum length.
With all due respect, did you call ATF and get that decision or interpret it from the info you quoted? Having had my hand slapped on more than one occasion by the ATF when I followed a form to the letter, I tend to want to err on the side of caution, to me that would be collapsed on a carbine style stock on the AR platform.
Short is the operative word here. If they weren't interested in concealability then we could happily make them as short as we wanted. It may never be an issue but then again... A call would work and is the best solution if you are undecided.
Awesome, thanks for finding it!!! I guess my forms are off by a couple inches on OAL.
Would that include the flash hider then? This is one of those questions that grows with the information brought forth.
With all due respect, did you call ATF and get that decision or interpret it from the info you quoted? Having had my hand slapped on more than one occasion by the ATF when I followed a form to the letter, I tend to want to err on the side of caution, to me that would be collapsed on a carbine style stock on the AR platform.
Short is the operative word here. If they weren't interested in concealability then we could happily make them as short as we wanted. It may never be an issue but then again... A call would work and is the best solution if you are undecided.
The language is very clear, and I do recall at least one letter from ATF Tech or Director stating same...
It would include flash suppressor and end of extended stock, apparently.
Awesome, thanks for finding it!!! I guess my forms are off by a couple inches on OAL.
Except...
"The ATF interprets "extreme ends of the weapon" to mean all stocks are extended or unfolded to their maximum length."
Is not expressly stated in 27 CFR 479.11. It does state "The overall length of a weapon made from a shotgun or rifle is the distance between the extreme ends of the weapon measured along a line parallel to the center line of the bore."
The ATF interprets "extreme ends of the weapon" to mean all stocks are extended or unfolded to their maximum length. May be correct, but I have not found that in any of the definitions.
I have to believe someone has had this question before me, and called the ATF.
I would guess it not really a big deal as:
a) They can probably figure you AOL by what your stated barrel length as (in regards to building an AR).
b) Being an SBR any length is permissible, as any rifle less than 26" is by definition an SBR.
I guess "EXTREME" ends could mean stock completely extended. At least untill someone changes their minds.
Except...
The version I posted above is from 2006, maybe if there is a 2009 version out there?
The version I posted above is from 2006, maybe if there is a 2009 version out there?
I've been searching and can only come up with the same information as already posted. My interpretation of extreme ends of the weapon would be to have the stock fully extended, extreme being the key word. I doubt the BATFE and I agree on all definitions but I'm sure if you call them and speak to 3 different agents you'll probably get at least 2 different answers ;)
revised April 1, 2009
http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2009/aprqtr/27cfr479.11.htm
Says basically the same thing. Doesn't mention how the ATF interprets "extreme ends of the weapon".
I've been searching and can only come up with the same information as already posted. My interpretation of extreme ends of the weapon would be to have the stock fully extended, extreme being the key word. I doubt the BATFE and I agree on all definitions but I'm sure if you call them and speak to 3 different agents you'll probably get at least 2 different answers ;)
That would not surprise me.
revised April 1, 2009
http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2009/aprqtr/27cfr479.11.htm
Says basically the same thing. Doesn't mention how the ATF interprets "extreme ends of the weapon".
Yep, I re-read it and while the language is clear on what it DOES say, it does not specifically say stock extended.
I'd call for sure. It won't get rejected if you put a reasonable single measurement in there either for extended or collapsed.
We know that's true based on some being approved with the extended OAL being used and with some being approved with the collapsed length being used.
Even if they change their minds, you do not indicate collapsed or extended in the form, so a small variation in OAL is typically a non-issue once it's actually registered.
At least to date.
It won't get rejected if you put a reasonable single measurement in there either for extended or collapsed.
I believe this to be true also. Still it would be nice if it was spelled out clearly.
Reading around the internet I have found conflicting answers, Some say extended other collapsed.
To a different issue for now.
I understand the ATF is now requiring certain info to be on you SBR lower. This is said to now include you caliber (correct?). My lower is marked "Multi" (unacceptable to put on form 1) I put 5.56 on my form. Do I have to have 5.56 ebgraved in my lower along with my trust name and location?
To a different issue for now.
I understand the ATF is now requiring certain info to be on you SBR lower. This is said to now include you caliber (correct?). My lower is marked "Multi" (unacceptable to put on form 1) I put 5.56 on my form. Do I have to have 5.56 ebgraved in my lower along with my trust name and location?
Is your barrel stamp or engraved 5.56? If so then you do have your caliber marked. Clearly from other post they require the caliber to be listed on the form 1, not Multi. At least that's what I'm hanging my hat on.
Is your barrel stamp or engraved 5.56? If so then you do have your caliber marked. Clearly from other post they require the caliber to be listed on the form 1, not Multi. At least that's what I'm hanging my hat on.
You are correct... I was just associating all marking with the lower. But then again, the lower itself is considered the firearm.
RetreatHell
08-04-09, 23:06
My NFA Law Attorney helped me a lot with my first Form 1, and when he measured it for the OAL portion of the form, he measured it with the CTR Stock collapsed. So that is now how I measure it myself when SBR-ing a lower.
I also have an 11.5" and a 10.5" upper(s) now, so I also wrote 10.5"/11.5" in the box for "Length of Barrel" on my most current Form 1.
And just to be on the safe side, I have written a typed letter to the NFA Branch of BATFE notifying them that an 11.5" barrel will also now be used on my other SBR'd lowers that I had previously only written 10.5" down for the barrel length originally.
This is just stuff that I personally did on my own Form 1's, and BATFE Approved them and they are good to go.
-Paul
Looks like you have your answer but I will also chime in. I went with collapsed because to me the ATF is more worried about short weapons as opposed to long ones so I wanted to specify all the shortest dimensions. Like a 10.5" (or even shorter) bbl length so that way I'm approved for that length on my lower and anything longer is closer to legal so it should be acceptable. Shorter would possibly be questioned if someone really wanted to I suppose. In other words, say you put 12" and then get contacted by the ATF in person when you're running a 10.5" upper. Technically you weren't approved for an upper that short but... I don't know that anything would happen. SBR is an SBR the way I read it so the actual length really shouldn't matter. Seemed like common sense to me but what do I know?
For the reason I was advised by someone who knows way more about NFA than me to put: 'All lawful purposes and collecting.'
Army Chief
08-05-09, 03:15
ATF is looking for the smallest form factor that the carbine can present in an unmodified, usable state; as such, the stock collapsed measurement is correct.
It would be less correct, though still somewhat logical, to list the length of the weapon in the firing configuration (i.e. with stock partially extended), but it would make very little sense at all to list the fully extended position, unless it were pinned in that position for whatever reason. The weapon is functional with the stock collapsed; hence, that is the measurement with which the law is primarily concerned.
Put another way, a non-NFA AR-15 carbine with an otherwise legal (16") barrel would still run afoul of the rules if it failed to meet overall length requirements with the stock collapsed. The purpose of a collapsing/telescoping/folding stock is to achieve compactness -- and it is this "compactness" aspect that the law is concerned with when determining NFA compliance.
AC
Is there any issue with putting both collapsed and extended length on the form, annotated as such? Even if that's kosher, is there a chance that they'll interpret that to mean that you are referring to two seperate weapons?
EDIT: Never mind, I did something crazy and actually looked at the Form1. Dumb question.
Is your barrel stamp or engraved 5.56? If so then you do have your caliber marked. Clearly from other post they require the caliber to be listed on the form 1, not Multi. At least that's what I'm hanging my hat on.
Actually checked the barrel and while it does say 5.56 NATO the marking is under the handguards (it an 11.5" SBR) and thus not readily visible.
is the caliber now required to be one the lower also? Will I have to add this also with my engraving?
Actually checked the barrel and while it does say 5.56 NATO the marking is under the handguards (it an 11.5" SBR) and thus not readily visible.
is the caliber now required to be one the lower also? Will I have to add this also with my engraving?
I'm not going to. Unless I get information that suggest otherwise I'm sticking to "it's on the barrel". And since I suspect I'll send my receiver for marking in the next 10 days the info better come soon. I'll put the trust info in plain sight but I think the caliber on the barrel will get it, even if it's under the rail and I have to remove 2 screws and remove the rail to prove it.
I'm not going to. Unless I get information that suggest otherwise I'm sticking to "it's on the barrel". And since I suspect I'll send my receiver for marking in the next 10 days the info better come soon. I'll put the trust info in plain sight but I think the caliber on the barrel will get it, even if it's under the rail and I have to remove 2 screws and remove the rail to prove it.
I found this on another site:
[QUOTE]These are the current marking requirements that must be stamped or engraved on NFA items when they are created.
(The requirements are found in US Code Title 27 CFR 479 and are the same if you are a importer, manufacturer of firearms for sale, or making NFA items as a non 02/07 MFR)
simply put:
- You must mark the newly made NFA firearm with the S/N, Model Name or Number, *your* Name, City, State and the caliber or gauge. If you used the S/N, Model and caliber from the original Title I firearm, then you're already half-way there as far as markings go ...
- Accepted abbreviations may be used for your name (i.e., your ititials), city & state. Ex: John Q. Public, Anywhere, PA can be marked as JQ Public, ANY PA.
- The S/N must be marked on the receiver or frame, and must be no less than 1/16" in height and no less than 0.003" deep.
- The remaining information (name, city, state, model and caliber) may be placed EITHER on the receiver OR the barrel, and must be no less than 0.003" deep. There are no minimum height requirements for these markings.
- All required markings must be in Roman letters (English) and Arabic numerals (1,2,3 ...), and be "wholly unobstructed from plain view". In other words, they may not be placed under handguards, grips, inside mag wells, etc. [QUOTE]
I take "wholly unobstructed from plain view" to mean under the handguards dosen't cut it, if indeed the caliber fall under these same guidelines.
- You must mark the newly made NFA firearm with the S/N, Model Name or Number, *your* Name, City, State and the caliber or gauge. If you used the S/N, Model and caliber from the original Title I firearm, then you're already half-way there as far as markings go ...
Since your lower came from the "factory" marked as MULTI, and "MULTI" does not fly on the Form 1 or Form 4, it sounds like you need to mark it.
From the NFA Handbook:
7.4.2 Additional information. Certain additional information must also be conspicuously placed on
the frame, receiver, or barrel of the firearm by engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), that is, they
must be placed in such a manner that they are wholly unobstructed from plain view. For firearms
manufactured on or after January 30, 2002, this information must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch.
The additional information includes:
(1) The model, if such designation has been made;
(2) The caliber or gauge;
(3) The manufacturer’s name (or recognized abbreviation); and
(4) The city and State (or recognized abbreviation) where the manufacturer maintains its place
of business.122
Looks like we're stuck with more engraving.
From the NFA Handbook:
7.4.2 Additional information. Certain additional information must also be conspicuously placed on
the frame, receiver, or barrel of the firearm by engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), that is, they
must be placed in such a manner that they are wholly unobstructed from plain view. For firearms
manufactured on or after January 30, 2002, this information must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch.
The additional information includes:
(1) The model, if such designation has been made;
(2) The caliber or gauge;
(3) The manufacturer’s name (or recognized abbreviation); and
(4) The city and State (or recognized abbreviation) where the manufacturer maintains its place
of business.122
Looks like we're stuck with more engraving.
It's looking like that...
The engraver that was recommended to me is an licensed 07 / SOT, so maybe they will have some actual knowledge. Then again I've learned that just being a dealer dosen't necessarily translate to having much real knowledge.
A call to the ATF may be in order.
Whatever you do, do NOT WRITE A LETTER TO THE ATF....please. :(
Whatever you do, do NOT WRITE A LETTER TO THE ATF....please. :(
Never happen as far as I'm concerned! :)
Whatever you do, do NOT WRITE A LETTER TO THE ATF....please. :(
Don't worry.... I promise not to write.
Just had a thought. Perhaps the caliber marking from the manufacturer (Multi) dosen't have to be the same as what you put on the form. After all many people use various calibers for their SBR builds (9mm, 5.56, .22lr, 6.5, 6.8). Not only that but sometimes they change or use various caliber uppers on the SBR lower.
So I think I'll be fine with 5.56 as that what this build will be (a different lower will be used for a future 6.5 grendel) . ;)
Oh I'm sure I'm going to get slammed for reopening this but no one ever said if they actually CALLED NFA!? :D
I'm doing my first Form 1 and I'm very confused. I've been told collapsed, extended, I've been told with and without the muzzle device also.
I had a Firearms Lawyer here in my state telling me he always does collapsed as the ATF wants shortest configuration. I just CALLED NFA and they told me extended but were unsure of the muzzle device so a specialist is supposed to call me back! ;D
I have multiple form 1 lowers, and I just list the length with stock collapsed, intended upper, and include the muzzle device.
Considering you might change the stock at any time, or use a different upper receiver after the form 1 is approved, the length may change drastically. There's really nothing to get worked up about. :)
I did end up calling them, NFA that is. The gal to picked up was unsure but had one of the specialists call me back.
Unless the muzzle device is permanently attached it does not count at part of the OAL so it should be removed when taking the OAL measurement. Stock is supposed to be fully extended for the OAL purposes of the Form 1.
So I'm thinking I would want to take my measurement with the shortest stock I have, the Colt N1 Car stock. With that stock I should be just under 26" which is also how I want to register it for Michigan too I think. Any SBR under 26" has to be registered as a pistol in Michigan but the trade off is that it can be carried as such under a CPL/CCW too. I think my SOPMOD would put it just over 26" and I really like the idea of just tossing it in the truck loaded if I so choose.
Turning my Colt M4A1 Carbine marked LE6920 M4A1 BLOCK II into a MK18-1 BLOCK II SBR! Excited but nervous as I've never done anything NFA before. Next up is a Surefire SOCOM silencer in TAN! :D
The official method of measurement is along the boreline, from the muzzle to the rearmost portion of the stock.
If the stock folds, collapses, or telescopes, the gun is measured with the stock out to its longest length.
I dont recall seeing anything about muzzle devices.
Official barrel length measurements are taken with muzzle devices removed.
Sbr/sbs overall are probably fine either way.
Suppressor measurements need to be accurate, as f1 saying a certain length, and then making it longer means a different suppressor than the one you registered. They consider more length to equal more suppression. Shorter than f1 is ok, but it is recommended you send them a letter telling them the shorter length, and they will simply amend the register.
With a gun such as an ar, having different length uppers and using them is ok. However, you should keep an upper that makes the original length/caliber, so should a question arise, you can return it to how it was registered. You can put a sufficiently long upper to remove it from nfa purview, and treat it as such.
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The official method of measurement is along the boreline, from the muzzle to the rearmost portion of the stock.
If the stock folds, collapses, or telescopes, the gun is measured with the stock out to its longest length.
I dont recall seeing anything about muzzle devices.
Official barrel length measurements are taken with muzzle devices removed.
Sbr/sbs overall are probably fine either way.
Suppressor measurements need to be accurate, as f1 saying a certain length, and then making it longer means a different suppressor than the one you registered. They consider more length to equal more suppression. Shorter than f1 is ok, but it is recommended you send them a letter telling them the shorter length, and they will simply amend the register.
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Wait what? What about suppressor lengths? I just has an agent from NFA tell me muzzle devices do not count unless permanently attached so maybe I'm reading your reply wrong?
Wait what? What about suppressor lengths? I just has an agent from NFA tell me muzzle devices do not count unless permanently attached so maybe I'm reading your reply wrong?
He's talking about building a Form 1 suppressor. Not directly related to your situation.
Since i was on the form 1 subject, i went ahead and added the info about suppressors.
The op was talking about an sbr.
The suppressor info was just extra thrown in.
For measuring barrel length, anything not permanently attached to the barrel does not count.
For measuring overall length, i have yet to find evidence of any distinction one way or another. We do have a printed copy of the latest revision of the national firearms act handbook. I have read the section, but it has been awhile. They do want the stock to its fullest length, to obtain the overall length in the condition it would be most likely used. This would suggest that any muzzle devices are also attached.
It should be noted that firearm manufacturers listing firearms list actual barrel length, not counting removable muzzle attachments. They also list overall length, which is with stock at full length, and muzzle attachements in place. Unless they are using two different methods, this would be the same info officially recorded in their records for atf as a manufacturer.
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