View Full Version : MSAR STG-E4 in 7.62x39/5.45x39
Yup. it's coming very soon. I can't wait to get mine. Will take C Products magazines. Very easy caliber swap between 5.56, 7.62, and 5.45. less than one minute. change barrel, bolt, and magazine.
This is interesting, my buddy just bought a MSAR in OD 16"bbl, looks nice.
I was never big on AUGs, but Ive been playing w/ one in the fun shop more and more and am starting to think I want one!
I'm more interested in one in 10mm or .40S&W.
Personally I think the factory Steyr A3 rifles are a much wiser purchase than a MSAR in any caliber.
Carne Frio
08-05-09, 10:13
I'm more interested in one in 10mm or .40S&W.
Likewise. Last May, I was advised by MSAR that it
would be "late summer" for pistol caliber products.
:D
Personally I think the factory Steyr A3 rifles are a much wiser purchase than a MSAR in any caliber.
Then why are you in an MSAR thread?
Personally I think the factory Steyr A3 rifles are a much wiser purchase than a MSAR in any caliber.
Completely agree.
Then why are you in an MSAR thread?
Because he is an experienced member and his input is valid for a number of reasons.
The Steyr AUG is a better investment for a number of reasons.
1. Factory steyr manufacturing and quality control
2. Holds its value better
3. More prone to a gun ban because it is made from imported parts thus would be worth much more than the original price due to a ban.
Many of the microtech parts are not interchangeable with a real AUG.
ANd mostly because "SteyrAug said so!"
Jay Cunningham
08-05-09, 17:23
Then why are you in an MSAR thread?
This is not an "MSAR thread" this is an "Other Assault Rifles" thread.
IMHO, these caliber changes are novelty and a user would be better off buying a base 5.56 AUG if they are a first time AUG buyer.
I predict this non native caliber AUGs will have functioning problems
I'll agree that an AUG in Com-Bloc calibres is just asking for problems. I have wanted a decent compact pistol calibre carbine for quite a while but the offerings have been scant. AR in nine, like the SMG? I have an AR in 5.56, no thanks to a AR nine, too big. Having carried the "real" AUG, I am a big fan of the platform. Steyr had offered it as a pistol calibre SMG/Carbine in 9mm but I don't carry nine, I carry .40. Having a lot of .40 floating around the house having an AUG chambered in .40 with an extra 10mm barrel (Same bolt) would be a good fit in my gun vault.
I'll agree that an AUG in Com-Bloc calibres is just asking for problems. I have wanted a decent compact pistol calibre carbine for quite a while but the offerings have been scant. AR in nine, like the SMG? I have an AR in 5.56, no thanks to a AR nine, too big. Having carried the "real" AUG, I am a big fan of the platform. Steyr had offered it as a pistol calibre SMG/Carbine in 9mm but I don't carry nine, I carry .40. Having a lot of .40 floating around the house having an AUG chambered in .40 with an extra 10mm barrel (Same bolt) would be a good fit in my gun vault.
You might want to take a look at the Beretta Storm in .40, just might float your boat.
I just want to know what happened to the MSAR STG that took 9mm Glock mags, that I saw at SHOT '08.
Carne Frio
08-07-09, 11:39
I just want to know what happened to the MSAR STG that took 9mm Glock mags, that I saw at SHOT '08.
You can send e-mail to this nice lady and she shoul give you the latest info:
mmangini@msarinc.com
She is a PR type.
:D
"You might want to take a look at the Beretta Storm in .40, just might float your boat."
Thanks for the suggestion but no thanks. My opinions on weapons designed by Italian fashion houses are expressed in other areas of this forum.
"You might want to take a look at the Beretta Storm in .40, just might float your boat."
Thanks for the suggestion but no thanks. My opinions on weapons designed by Italian fashion houses are expressed in other areas of this forum.
I understand, I was just running down the short list of reliable .40 carbines.
Yep, did that about a year and a half ago, they said they'd be out in 4 months.
You can send e-mail to this nice lady and she shoul give you the latest info:
mmangini@msarinc.com
She is a PR type.
:D
SteyrAUG, I do appreciate a brother looking out.
Because he is an experienced member and his input is valid for a number of reasons.
The Steyr AUG is a better investment for a number of reasons.
1. Factory steyr manufacturing and quality control
2. Holds its value better
3. More prone to a gun ban because it is made from imported parts thus would be worth much more than the original price due to a ban.
Many of the microtech parts are not interchangeable with a real AUG.
I plan on getting both, so I don't have a dog in this fight, but...
The fact that microtech parts are not interchabeable is not that big a deal to me. There are 12000 microtechs out in the wild... THey have already dwarfed the aug population. So is it compatible...no. Are the parts more available, probably? will they be more available in the future? Probably.
I own an MSAR STG E4 (accepts AR mags), and previously had the STG 5.56 (one that accepted aug mags). Both shoot incredibly well and are practically identical to the Steyr Aug (and yes, I have shot those too and have compared them side by side). I will tell you the MSAR's fit tighter (whether good or bad). They have the improvement of a fluted barrel, last round bolt locks open, bolt release (was not on Augs, but I'm not sure if they added that to the brand new ones) but other than that they are the same, only a few hundred dollars less.
The only issue I have with the E4 is the factory mags MSAR sends with them. They are a real pain to eject (they tell me they get better as the gun breaks in). I only use Pmags by magpul and they function flawlessly. The E4 has an improved stock with a slightly better pistol grip (in my opinion) and it comes with 3 accessory rails. The rails can be mounted in 5 different locations. The E4 seems to have a much crisper trigger than my STG 5.56. The trigger was probably the only real negative compared to an AR due to the bull pup design. But the E4 was leaps and bounds above the 4th gen STG 5.56 I owned before it.
MSAR's customer service is amazing too. I told them about the mag release issue and they sent me out a new stock (that they "broke in" within a few days. They are well known for excellent customer service.
Anyway, I have put about 1000 rounds through my STG E4 with NO FTF's or FTE's. I love it. I love my Colt AR too, but the bull pup design makes the STG much shorter and more maneuverable.
The AUG never needed an AR type bolt release. The charging handle on the AUG has alway served this purpose. On a last round hold open and magazine change just slap the charging handle forward.
The AUG never needed an AR type bolt release. The charging handle on the AUG has alway served this purpose. On a last round hold open and magazine change just slap the charging handle forward.
You have to manually pull the charging handle back and into the notch to hold the charging handle + bolt backwards. I'm pretty sure it's inferior to the ar15 type bolt catch/release where the bolt is automatically held back and released by the press of a button.
I own an MSAR STG E4 (accepts AR mags), and previously had the STG 5.56 (one that accepted aug mags). Both shoot incredibly well and are practically identical to the Steyr Aug (and yes, I have shot those too and have compared them side by side). I will tell you the MSAR's fit tighter (whether good or bad). They have the improvement of a fluted barrel, last round bolt locks open, bolt release (was not on Augs, but I'm not sure if they added that to the brand new ones) but other than that they are the same, only a few hundred dollars less.
All AUGs have a last round bolt hold open.
The MSAR copied the AUG A3 (military version not the US semi auto) with the bolt release.
I own several examples of both and the MSAR in no way compares to the quality of a Steyr rifle. They are fine for what they are, but it is kinda like comparing Bushmaster to Colt, the Bushmaster is a fine rifle (I own them as well) but it isn't "just as good" as a Colt.
You have to manually pull the charging handle back and into the notch to hold the charging handle + bolt backwards. I'm pretty sure it's inferior to the ar15 type bolt catch/release where the bolt is automatically held back and released by the press of a button.
Not on an empty chamber.
variablebinary
08-24-09, 02:17
Yup. it's coming very soon. I can't wait to get mine. Will take C Products magazines. Very easy caliber swap between 5.56, 7.62, and 5.45. less than one minute. change barrel, bolt, and magazine.
Interesting.
jagdkommando
08-25-09, 08:47
We have been shooting and testing the MSAR E4 in 7.62x39 for awhile now and it works really well. With some old lapua match 7.62x39 match ammo and the green mountain barrels make for a nice accurate carbine. My E4 in 7.62x39 E4 will kill several large animals this fall.
All AUGs have a last round bolt hold open.
The MSAR copied the AUG A3 (military version not the US semi auto) with the bolt release.
I own several examples of both and the MSAR in no way compares to the quality of a Steyr rifle. They are fine for what they are, but it is kinda like comparing Bushmaster to Colt, the Bushmaster is a fine rifle (I own them as well) but it isn't "just as good" as a Colt.
So in what way do you feel the quality of the Steyr is better? What specifically? Again, I have shot, inspected, manipulated, and taken apart both. The specs seem a bit tighter on the MSAR. Tell me exactly why you claim this? I agree with your colt vs. bushmaster statement, but you can visually see/ feel the differences in these that make the bushmaster inferior (more play, etc). I'd challenge you to find anything on the Steyr that is far superior to the Microtech... well that is other than a bigger price (which I dont believe is superior).
I have 3 MSAR's now and 1 Steyr. I was going to post a review while I was home but ran out of time. The only thing I can functionally say about the Steyr is the trigger seems a little smoother and the break is more defined. I really like the quality of the MSAR products, the Gebirgsjager especially is a very finely crafted firearm. (I didn't shoot the Jager)
I have an early production tan MSAR 16" with Comp/rail and a more recent OD MSAR 16" with Comp/rail. Both shoot about the same, it looks like they might have a more refined process based on the internals of green rifle, but functionally I can't tell a difference. I haven't bought an E4 yet. They also have a Heavy Barrel version coming out that I am very interested in!
I do like the fact that Steyr is back on the market with the A3, but MSAR is really innovating with the platform and taking it to new places. I like the fact that they have variation in design, are offering different calibers and are stepping up the options.
If I could suggest a couple of options...
--Tritium version of the scope
--AAC flash suppressors/adapters
--Add-on rubberized grip
Now that Steyr is back in the US market, no reason to pay homage to their original design. I think this will give MSAR a chance to focus on the US market and the unique demands of the enthusiast community.
I'm just happy I have AUG choices!
jagdkommando
08-26-09, 07:33
I am anxious to hear the answer to this myself. Hopefully the answer will get into details like metallurgy, polymers, and tolerances so we can have an interesting, fact filled, debate.
I will say I agree that the earlier STG's did not have a very smooth trigger. I forgot to mention that as one of the things that was inferior to the Aug. That being said, After selling my 4th Gen STG and getting the E4, the trigger improvement is night and day. The trigger break is right at the point of full extension...there is no slack in the trigger...the trigger "slack" is all behind the break point, making double-taps much easier. The older trigger had a lot of guessing room and the reset point was not very defined. Like I mentioned earlier, the only bad thing so far about the E4 is that they give you 5, 30-round mags but the factory ones do not eject smoothly. The Pmags, though, are perfect.
I wouldn't mind a side magazine release instead of the one under the stock. For the AR mags, this would probably work better, though with the STG/ Aug mags the rear (underside) release makes more sense based on the design of the mags.
tombirdman
08-26-09, 13:34
.
The MSAR STG 556 is a great gun.
Now with the change - over to the E4- with all of it's new advantages - {{ uses AR style magazines, all the new conection point for lights, lasers, bipods, new stipled stock, etc }} and then you add on all the new calibers including 6.8 this is truly a huge advancement for the firearms industry and puts it miles ahead of any competition !!!
I am truly impressed!
These are advancements that should, truly, be appreciated by the firearms industry and the marketplace. It allows one gun to, actually, turn into four guns without the expense of buying three additional guns. Well thought-out theory now turned into a fact!!!
Tom
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tombirdman
08-26-09, 14:04
Because he is an experienced member and his input is valid for a number of reasons.
The Steyr AUG is a better investment for a number of reasons.
1. Factory steyr manufacturing and quality control
2. Holds its value better
3. More prone to a gun ban because it is made from imported parts thus would be worth much more than the original price due to a ban.
Many of the microtech parts are not interchangeable with a real AUG.
.
:confused: Your reasoning is good but the MSAR is made with closer tollerances, parts are readily available and less expensive, the gun shoots much better than an AUG [ I have had 3 and two of them constantly stove - piped or had eject - feed problems.]
A full auto with 9mm conversion kit, that I had acces to, had no problems. This is the only one I wish I could get !
Steyr manufacturing and quality control are inferior to MSARS and they certainly have no customer support now that they cant be imported.
The American licensed AUG - is licensed by Steyr but then so is MSAR.
I saw the inventor of the AUG at a Shot Show at the MSAR booth talking about his agreement with MSAR = so whats the difference.
The imported AUGS are collectable, they will never be imported again but the American made, farmed out, Steyr Aug is made here and therefore not import restricted.
This means that MSARs or any other clones made in America are subject to the same laws !!!
As far as parts go. I would rather deal with a company that had service, support and parts not subject to the threat of an impot ban. As far as I am concerned, your argument speaks to the reason why I want an MSAR STG556 and not a Steyr, American made, Aug.
This is only the way I feel about it !
We can each reason our own way and if we choose, put our money where our mouth is.
Tom
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tombirdman
08-26-09, 14:22
IMHO, these caliber changes are novelty and a user would be better off buying a base 5.56 AUG if they are a first time AUG buyer.
I predict this non native caliber AUGs will have functioning problems
.
:confused: The future is hard to predict but MSAR has built a reputation that says it wont be realeased unless it's perfect! If there are problems MSAR will promptly fix them .
If you release something that is inferior and doesn't work you ruin your reputation, {which they have spent a lot of time and money building,} and you go broke because of the expense of going back and fixing the defect on everyones rifles.
They have one hell of alot to loose by building a defective product !!!
I agee that it would, probaly be best to start with a 5.56 and build from their, but, then again, if the 6.8 were available as a unit, I would have alot of thinking to do!
Tom
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tombirdman
08-26-09, 14:36
All AUGs have a last round bolt hold open.
The MSAR copied the AUG A3 (military version not the US semi auto) with the bolt release.
I own several examples of both and the MSAR in no way compares to the quality of a Steyr rifle. They are fine for what they are, but it is kinda like comparing Bushmaster to Colt, the Bushmaster is a fine rifle (I own them as well) but it isn't "just as good" as a Colt.
.
:eek: - I - 100% DISAGREE, IN EVERYWAY, WITH YOUR STATEMENT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Tom
.:eek:
threeheadeddog
08-26-09, 18:24
Slightly off topic but since I see that msar reps are watching this thread... better to ask for forgiveness and all :D
While I will probably buy an E4 I think the thing that MSAR really needs to do to get their rifle to be accepted is to GET IT INTO HIGH ROUND COUNT CLASSES. I know there was one lent out and subsequently used by a board member but it needs to happen more. If people started seeing this rifle last through some classes there would be more willingness for the type of people who are on this board to buy one.
Then why are you in an MSAR thread?
Could also be that the msar is a copy of the AUG
Slightly off topic but since I see that msar reps are watching this thread... better to ask for forgiveness and all :D
While I will probably buy an E4 I think the thing that MSAR really needs to do to get their rifle to be accepted is to GET IT INTO HIGH ROUND COUNT CLASSES. I know there was one lent out and subsequently used by a board member but it needs to happen more. If people started seeing this rifle last through some classes there would be more willingness for the type of people who are on this board to buy one.
Here's a cut-n-paste of my range report about running two STG's through a two-day carbine class last June (appx 2K rds total):
My best friend is visiting for a week so I treated us both to a local 2-day carbine course using my STG's & crappy Brown Bear 55gr. Both rifles were slightly dirty from sighting in their Eotechs the previous week and I deliberately decided to run them through the course dirty & w/o any cleaning or additional lube as a reliability test. Gas systems were set to "heavy" as per Dave's advice due to the Brown Bear being so underpowered.
First day was a little classroom work to cover the fundamentals along w/some highly educational in-house exercises on proper pie-ing (?) techniques. The afternoon was spent at the range confirming zero, proper sight picture, trigger technique, footwork, posture, etc. Altogether appx 400rds were fired per rifle that day w/the only problem being a single double-feed in the STG I was using.
Second day was the fun stuff! Moving targets, shoot/no-shoot drills, stop drills, shooting on the move, transitions, single hand manipulations (man, was *that* interesting w/the STG!), team drills, hostage exercises, lateral-move shots, low-crawl to shooting position, multiple-height barricade shots (my friend took a couple of empties to the teeth when firing from the roll-over support side prone position, all I got was a hot casing to the back of the neck...http://www.ar15.com/images/smilies/smiley_abused.gif), room clearing and other very practical and realistic exercises.
Their range wasn't complete but what they managed to accomplish w/improvisation was simply amazing. My favorite was a carboard box wearing a tee-shirt and suspended on a coat hanger by an inflated balloon (representing the heart COM) inside the box. While this target was moving you had to hit the small & unseen balloon inside the target to get it to "drop". Lots of fun!
Anywho, my friend's STG completed the course w/100% reliability (which pleasantly surprised me a little since he was using my "problem child" STG that had initial FTE's right out of the box, I guess Dave done fixed it right!)
However, almost at the very end of the 2nd day I started having stuck casings w/resultant FTE's (not surprising w/steel-cased ammo, especially the cheap Brown Bear I was using) w/one so severe it locked up the bolt and took a major effort to free. Rather than mess with it I just dropped in a spare bolt and finished the course w/o further difficulty.
I detail-stripped the bolt and discovered that the extractor claw was chewed up rather badly (but not broken), I believe this to be from trying to forcefully trying to extract that one badly-stuck casing. It only took a couple of minutes to drop in a new extractor and it's good to go again.
The environment was very unfriendly to mechanisms; a very fine dirt (evident in the pics) that coated and got into *everything* (even the toilet paper in the outhouse, that's one memory I'm going to try very hard to forget...http://www.ar15.com/images/smilies/icon_smile_dead.gif). Even though I had to drop our chest rigs into the washing machine to get them clean, the STG's cleaned up very quickly and easily w/only the gas pistons requiring any real cleaning effort even after nearly 1,000rds each of the crappy Brown Bear.
Btw, the Eotech 512's we used were absolutely great for this kind of shooting. From unconventional positions I found the big circle much quicker/easier to acquire than a small single dot and at close ranges the bottom of the circle made a perfect aiming point. From point-blank out to 50yd hostage rescue shots I never missed w/the Eotech.
Tomac
Shooting while moving back:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/Tomac/ResizeofJohnCarbineClass5-25-09008.jpg
Lateral shots w/the "clearing room" in the background:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/Tomac/ResizeofJohnCarbineClass5-25-09015.jpg
Rotating the STG to increase the angle of engagement:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/Tomac/ResizeofJohnCarbineClass5-25-09016.jpg
Moving target w/no-shoots:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/Tomac/ResizeofJohnCarbineClass5-25-09023.jpg
Barricade shots:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/Tomac/ResizeofJohnCarbineClass5-25-09025.jpg
Single hand manipulations:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/Tomac/ResizeofJohnCarbineClass5-25-09029.jpg
Team drill:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/Tomac/ResizeofJohnCarbineClass5-25-09030.jpg
Low crawls:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/Tomac/ResizeofJohnCarbineClass5-25-09033.jpg
I'm the good looking one on the left!:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/Tomac/ResizeofJohnCarbineClass5-25-09011.jpg
STG's after two days of abuse:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/Tomac/ResizeofRotationofJohnCarbineClass5.jpg
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Your reasoning is good but the MSAR is made with closer tollerances, parts are readily available and less expensive, the gun shoots much better than an AUG
I don't care.
The American licensed AUG - is licensed by Steyr but then so is MSAR.
The MSAR is licensed by Steyr? That is news to me.
Steyr Aug is made here and therefore not import restricted.
This means that MSARs or any other clones made in America are subject to the same laws !!!
Wrong again. The Sabre AUG is a halfway gun that can be further restricted by the GCA of 68 on the whim of the attorney general. Most of the Sabre AUG is imported. These rules can change.
As far as parts go. I would rather deal with a company that had service, support and parts not subject to the threat of an impot ban.
This is a contradiction to your above statement.
Can we make this the first MSAR/AUG thread that doesn't turn into a food fight? Seriously. Throwing jabs doesn't improve the quality of the information. If there are inaccuracies, isn't it better to try and point that out in a non-confrontational, unbiased, no attitude required way? Most of these threads get closed because soon after, an angry back and forth exchange brews and the mods have to step in. That is not constructive or useful.
tombirdman
08-27-09, 10:38
[QUOTE=scottryan;440984]I don't care.
The MSAR is licensed by Steyr? That is news to me.
Wrong again. The Sabre AUG is a halfway gun that can be further restricted by the GCA of 68 on the whim of the attorney general. Most of the Sabre AUG is imported. These rules can change.
This is a contradiction to your above statement. - "WHAT!"
.
.
You made your statement, I made mine. The fact that MSAR far outsells speaks for itself but it really doesn't make any difference what either one of us think
[ we fundamentally disagree and neither one of us is going to change the others mind ] so going forward is rather pointles.
I don't intend to go on with the argument.
As long as we are both happy with our guns and our oppinions than all is well !
I think, it is proper to say, that we both did a good job of expressing our opinions!
Tom
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tombirdman
08-27-09, 10:42
Can we make this the first MSAR/AUG thread that doesn't turn into a food fight? Seriously. Throwing jabs doesn't improve the quality of the information. If there are inaccuracies, isn't it better to try and point that out in a non-confrontational, unbiased, no attitude required way? Most of these threads get closed because soon after, an angry back and forth exchange brews and the mods have to step in. That is not constructive or useful.
.
"" AGREE ""
jagdkommando
08-27-09, 10:57
Slightly off topic but since I see that msar reps are watching this thread... better to ask for forgiveness and all :D
While I will probably buy an E4 I think the thing that MSAR really needs to do to get their rifle to be accepted is to GET IT INTO HIGH ROUND COUNT CLASSES. I know there was one lent out and subsequently used by a board member but it needs to happen more. If people started seeing this rifle last through some classes there would be more willingness for the type of people who are on this board to buy one.
I demo a lot of rifles and sell a lot of rifles I can assure you that everybody that takes a class with one of our rifles does not post about it on the gun boards.
tombirdman
08-27-09, 11:48
I demo a lot of rifles and sell a lot of rifles I can assure you that everybody that takes a class with one of our rifles does not post about it on the gun boards.
.
I know of 2 or 3 people, and I could probably come up with more, that have over 4,000 rounds through their guns, that have used factory american made ammunition and not had to clean their guns - including gas piston system.
So I have no doubt as to the reliability.
I am of the oppinion that people are going to think what they want and like or like not whatever they want.
Sometimes, I GUESS, it just feels good to throw " LEAD FARTS " around no matter where they go or who they hurt !
Tom
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tombirdman
08-27-09, 12:24
I don't care. "IGNORANT"
The MSAR is licensed by Steyr? That is news to me.
Wrong again. The Sabre AUG is a halfway gun HALF WAY GUN - FOR SURE ! that can be further restricted by the GCA of 68 on the whim of the attorney general. Most of the Sabre AUG is imported. These rules can change.
This is a contradiction to your above statement. HAH !
I AM ASHAMED OF MYSELF FOR ANSWEREING BUT - OH WELL !:rolleyes:
So in what way do you feel the quality of the Steyr is better? What specifically? Again, I have shot, inspected, manipulated, and taken apart both. The specs seem a bit tighter on the MSAR. Tell me exactly why you claim this? I agree with your colt vs. bushmaster statement, but you can visually see/ feel the differences in these that make the bushmaster inferior (more play, etc). I'd challenge you to find anything on the Steyr that is far superior to the Microtech... well that is other than a bigger price (which I dont believe is superior).
Well I've done a bit more than shot, manipulated and inspected.
I OWN and SHOOT them both. I have several MSARs and I have several AUGs.
http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/4122/00000000253.jpg
http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/9461/00000000046ea5.jpg
http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/3239/p1003766db8.jpg
In addition to the frequent comparisons of the firearms in my personal collection I also know Pete Athens who was the guy most responsible for the MSAR and I know a bit about what is involved in the production of the MSAR especially changes that were made after Pete left.
Nothing wrong with a MSAR, again I own a few, but it is NOT the same as a Steyr rifle. And here we are talking about quality of the parts.
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Steyr manufacturing and quality control are inferior to MSARS
.
To borrow a phrase.
I - 100% DISAGREE, IN EVERYWAY, WITH YOUR STATEMENT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:D
HAH !
I AM ASHAMED OF MYSELF FOR ANSWEREING BUT - OH WELL !:rolleyes:
Can't refute me on my points so you have to act like this.
As soon as you get someone that counters you with more than rhetoric, you fall apart.
The fact that MSAR far outsells speaks for itself but it really doesn't make any difference what either one of us think
Bushmaster outsells Colt almost 10 to 1 on the civilian market. That doesn't mean Bushmaster is better.
Originally Posted by tombirdman
Steyr manufacturing and quality control are inferior to MSARS
Is MSAR ISO9000 certified like Sabre Defence is?
tombirdman
08-27-09, 16:21
Is MSAR ISO9000 certified like Sabre Defence is?
.:eek:
BATE ME BY TELLING ME I AM GIVING UP?
THAT IS NOT THE REASON I AM QUITING THE CONVERSATION !
IT IS JUST GETTING TO BE A WASTE OF TIME AND SPACE AND THERE ISN'T ANYMORE TO BE SAID !
OPINIONS ARE OPINIONS. I EXPRESSED MINE, YOU EXPRESSED YOURS.
NO WINNERS NO LOOSERS.
WE COULD GO ON AND ON WITH THIS AND IT WOULD LEAD TO NOTHING NEW
threeheadeddog
08-27-09, 18:37
jagdkommando- I understand that not all(or even many) people who use these hard post on boards. I am simply saying the more MSAR's that people see make it though high round counts and through hard use the more people will respect it as a tool not just a toy.
I would also note that a good many companies are putting rifles in the hands of trainers as T&E guns. While I know that the US training community is very attached to the AR I believe it would be worth it to try and lend some out to unbiased respected people to evaluate over extended periods of time.
threeheadeddog
08-27-09, 18:45
BTW I work in an ISO certified manufacturing facility.
IT MEANS NOTHING in relation to the quality of the product.
It is most important for vendors. When people are shopping for venders the ISO cert. means simply that that company documents their process. But if you are not a vendor there is little reason to persue the cert. as it is mostly something that potential customers(again if you are a vendor) require for you to even be allowed to sell to them.
tombirdman
08-27-09, 19:14
Well I've done a bit more than shot, manipulated and inspected.
I OWN and SHOOT them both. I have several MSARs and I have several AUGs.
http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/4122/00000000253.jpg
http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/9461/00000000046ea5.jpg
http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/3239/p1003766db8.jpg
In addition to the frequent comparisons of the firearms in my personal collection I also know Pete Athens who was the guy most responsible for the MSAR and I know a bit about what is involved in the production of the MSAR especially changes that were made after Pete left.
Nothing wrong with a MSAR, again I own a few, but it is NOT the same as a Steyr rifle. And here we are talking about quality of the parts.
.
.:)
I love your collection and would "near give my right arm to have it !"
Tom
:D
To quote my rocket engineer friend from memory, "All ISO means is that you document what you do and you do what you document, if you document that you are to drag a lower receiver around in the parking lot before installing the LPK then you are ISO compliant."
FWIW I have never owned or fired an MSAR but have a sneaking suspicion that their 5.45 rifles will work well.
Well I've done a bit more than shot, manipulated and inspected.
I OWN and SHOOT them both. I have several MSARs and I have several AUGs.
http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/4122/00000000253.jpg
http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/9461/00000000046ea5.jpg
http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/3239/p1003766db8.jpg
In addition to the frequent comparisons of the firearms in my personal collection I also know Pete Athens who was the guy most responsible for the MSAR and I know a bit about what is involved in the production of the MSAR especially changes that were made after Pete left.
Nothing wrong with a MSAR, again I own a few, but it is NOT the same as a Steyr rifle. And here we are talking about quality of the parts.
Ok, so you've established that you own them, know Pete Athens etc. Could you please answer Upnarms' questions though? What specifically makes the Steyr better? I'm not talking resale value in the event of another ban, I'm talking mchanically. I'm very curious.
tombirdman
08-29-09, 15:53
Bushmaster outsells Colt almost 10 to 1 on the civilian market. That doesn't mean Bushmaster is better.
:confused:
.
No it just means that 9 out of 10 chose a BUSHMASTER !
WHY !
Price, Quality, Advertisement, Reputation ?
Must be something !
Tom
:confused:
.
No it just means that 9 out of 10 chose a BUSHMASTER !
WHY !
Price, Quality, Advertisement, Reputation ?
Must be something !
Tom
Mainly price.
Ok, so you've established that you own them, know Pete Athens etc. Could you please answer Upnarms' questions though? What specifically makes the Steyr better? I'm not talking resale value in the event of another ban, I'm talking mchanically. I'm very curious.
Actually I did answer it. The difference is "quality of the parts." Steyr simply uses higher quality materials and build the rifle to a higher standard.
The MSAR isn't a bad rifle, it's actually pretty decent considering it is made by a company that never built a rifle before and makes auto knives. But they couldn't even begin to match the quality of a company like Sabre Arms let alone a company like Steyr.
Now here is the important part.
MSAR got a Steyr expert (Pete Athens) to help them develop and produce their AUG. They did it without factory tooling or experienced engineers. Pete is very knowledgeable but I don't think he ever worked for Steyr and I believe this is the first project he was involved in where he produced a rifle.
Steyr on the other hand simply brought their tooling, or parts made on Steyr tooling, to the US and built the rifles domestically with Steyr engineers at the Sabre facility.
What most folks don't know is Steyr originally pitched the idea to MSAR. They would bring their tooling, parts and a bunch of guys named Dieter to MSAR and produce the AUG. But because MSAR would not have exclusive control over the entire project they turned it down. Pete couldn't believe they passed on the offer.
Steyr then made the same offer to Sabre who wisely took them up on it.
Other problems with the MSAR are that on the Limited Edition they worked the bugs out on the first run. This is why so many LE guns have FTE and FTF issues. Pete wasn't crazy about it but that is how a lot of manufacturers do thing. MSAR did what they could to correct the guns under warranty but it isn't the same as having a rifle that was correct in the first place.
Once production issues were worked out they didn't really need Pete so they found a reason to let him go. It is my understanding, but not something I have first hand personal knowledge about, that MSAR then began cutting corners here and there. Doesn't mean the rifles don't work, just means there was a CQ drop after the rifles Pete was responsible for producing.
Again, I like to use my Colt vs. Bushmaster comparison. A Bushmaster is a fine rifle (one of the ABCs) but it isn't quite a Colt, and we aren't just talking about resale value.
The Steyr, like the Colt, is a proven combat rifle that is made by the same manufacturer who produces them for the military and to the same standard. The MSAR and the Bushmaster are simply decent copies of the same rifle but not produced to the same standard.
Put the two rifles side by side and you can see it. Operate the features on both rifles and you can feel it. The QC barrel on a MSAR takes two hands to remove, the Steyr can be done with one. The Steyr rifle is more accurate than the MSAR. The scope is a higher quality optic (especially preban AUGs which are Swarovski).
Now all that said, the fact that an auto knife company (damn nice knives btw) can produce a rifle that merits a comparison at all is impressive. There are established gun makers who probably couldn't produce a rifle as nice as the MSAR. It certainly isn't the equivalent of a Olympic or DPMS, it is higher quality than that.
It just isn't a Steyr rifle.
Now obviously the MSAR outsells the Steyr. People just started getting their Steyrs this year. MSARs have been available for a few years now. Also the economy is in the crapper so a lot of people don't have a couple grand and change to buy either rifle. And IF they are gonna buy, given the economy a lot of guys will buy the cheaper rifle. And of course there is the fact that some MSAR models take AR mags and that is making the decision for many US buyers.
Now just so we are clear, I can't point to anything and say "This is wrong, that is broken, this is crap." If I could...I wouldn't own the rifles. The Steyr is simply better quality is all.
jagdkommando
09-01-09, 14:35
If you are stating that Steyr uses higher quality material to build their rifles, I am then going to assume that you know what materials MSAR and Steyr build their rifles with?
Are you talking barrel steel? The steel used to make the bolt? Bolt sleeve? Extractor? Recoil springs? Polymers?
Please tell us, we want to know.
jagdkommando
09-03-09, 12:14
Still waiting to hear your response.
tombirdman
09-03-09, 13:18
Still waiting to hear your response.
.
{ AS AM I }!!!
:confused:
jagdkommando
09-15-09, 15:41
SteyrAUG, I am still waiting for you to disclose what the "higher quality" materials are. I understand that you seem to be very well versed about this rifle platform. However, to make a statement like this without being able to back it up somehow leads to the watering down of these technical forums.
tombirdman
09-15-09, 16:57
Actually I did answer it. The difference is "quality of the parts." Steyr simply uses higher quality materials and build the rifle to a higher standard.
The MSAR isn't a bad rifle, it's actually pretty decent considering it is made by a company that never built a rifle before and makes auto knives. But they couldn't even begin to match the quality of a company like Sabre Arms let alone a company like Steyr.
Now here is the important part.
MSAR got a Steyr expert (Pete Athens) to help them develop and produce their AUG. They did it without factory tooling or experienced engineers. Pete is very knowledgeable but I don't think he ever worked for Steyr and I believe this is the first project he was involved in where he produced a rifle.
Steyr on the other hand simply brought their tooling, or parts made on Steyr tooling, to the US and built the rifles domestically with Steyr engineers at the Sabre facility.
What most folks don't know is Steyr originally pitched the idea to MSAR. They would bring their tooling, parts and a bunch of guys named Dieter to MSAR and produce the AUG. But because MSAR would not have exclusive control over the entire project they turned it down. Pete couldn't believe they passed on the offer.
Steyr then made the same offer to Sabre who wisely took them up on it.
Other problems with the MSAR are that on the Limited Edition they worked the bugs out on the first run. This is why so many LE guns have FTE and FTF issues. Pete wasn't crazy about it but that is how a lot of manufacturers do thing. MSAR did what they could to correct the guns under warranty but it isn't the same as having a rifle that was correct in the first place.
Once production issues were worked out they didn't really need Pete so they found a reason to let him go. It is my understanding, but not something I have first hand personal knowledge about, that MSAR then began cutting corners here and there. Doesn't mean the rifles don't work, just means there was a CQ drop after the rifles Pete was responsible for producing.
Again, I like to use my Colt vs. Bushmaster comparison. A Bushmaster is a fine rifle (one of the ABCs) but it isn't quite a Colt, and we aren't just talking about resale value.
The Steyr, like the Colt, is a proven combat rifle that is made by the same manufacturer who produces them for the military and to the same standard. The MSAR and the Bushmaster are simply decent copies of the same rifle but not produced to the same standard.
Put the two rifles side by side and you can see it. Operate the features on both rifles and you can feel it. The QC barrel on a MSAR takes two hands to remove, the Steyr can be done with one. The Steyr rifle is more accurate than the MSAR. The scope is a higher quality optic (especially preban AUGs which are Swarovski).
Now all that said, the fact that an auto knife company (damn nice knives btw) can produce a rifle that merits a comparison at all is impressive. There are established gun makers who probably couldn't produce a rifle as nice as the MSAR. It certainly isn't the equivalent of a Olympic or DPMS, it is higher quality than that.
It just isn't a Steyr rifle.
Now obviously the MSAR outsells the Steyr. People just started getting their Steyrs this year. MSARs have been available for a few years now. Also the economy is in the crapper so a lot of people don't have a couple grand and change to buy either rifle. And IF they are gonna buy, given the economy a lot of guys will buy the cheaper rifle. And of course there is the fact that some MSAR models take AR mags and that is making the decision for many US buyers.
Now just so we are clear, I can't point to anything and say "This is wrong, that is broken, this is crap." If I could...I wouldn't own the rifles. The Steyr is simply better quality is all.
:confused:
1. So who is Sabre?
2. What makes you think they have a claim to fame? Never heard of them before this!
3. MICROTECH makes the "HIGHEST OF QUALITY KNIVES" - thousandth of an inch tolerances and world renowned and desired for years ! Best of machine work = proven! Skill proven! Product proven !
4. MSAR STG556 is proven! Several succesful years of product, service, and support!
5. MSAR has a proven reputation of making changes to the product when customers show interest !
6. MSAR has a large volume of succesful sales. Does Sabre? NO !
7. Sabre. on the other hand, means nothing to anyone and now, out of no where comes SABRE, assembling parts in America for AUG ?
OK= SO WHAT?
Why haven't you answered the question " What is better, or what is the comparison between Sabre and MSAR materials !!!
You have been asked repeatedly and you have refused to reply repetadly !
DOES THIS MEAN THAT YOU JUST DON'T KNOW ?
Tom
:p
tombirdman
09-15-09, 17:11
All AUGs have a last round bolt hold open.
The MSAR copied the AUG A3 (military version not the US semi auto) with the bolt release.
I own several examples of both and the MSAR in no way compares to the quality of a Steyr rifle. They are fine for what they are, but it is kinda like comparing Bushmaster to Colt, the Bushmaster is a fine rifle (I own them as well) but it isn't "just as good" as a Colt.
:eek:
I have an early customized "Bushmaster M-4."
It is every bit the quality of a Colt M-4 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If it outsells Colt than the consumer thinks it's better !!!
They don't much care what you, or your ego thinks, they go out and put down their money for a supperior product with much better cusatomer service althought not comparable MSAR.
Tom
P.S. You seem, or come across, as being a real negative person.
SORRY?
Tom:mad:
Tom,
I see your point, but "Who is Sabre"?
Really?
Tom, you might want to throttle back a bit, you're not doing anyone any favors.
tombirdman
09-15-09, 17:38
Tom, you might want to throttle back a bit, you're not doing anyone any favors.
.
10/4:D
.
:confused:
1. So who is Sabre?
2. What makes you think they have a claim to fame? Never heard of them before this!
3. MICROTECH makes the "HIGHEST OF QUALITY KNIVES" - thousandth of an inch tolerances and world renowned and desired for years ! Best of machine work = proven! Skill proven! Product proven !
4. MSAR STG556 is proven! Several succesful years of product, service, and support!
5. MSAR has a proven reputation of making changes to the product when customers show interest !
6. MSAR has a large volume of succesful sales. Does Sabre? NO !
7. Sabre. on the other hand, means nothing to anyone and now, out of no where comes SABRE, assembling parts in America for AUG ?
OK= SO WHAT?
Why haven't you answered the question " What is better, or what is the comparison between Sabre and MSAR materials !!!
You have been asked repeatedly and you have refused to reply repetadly !
DOES THIS MEAN THAT YOU JUST DON'T KNOW ?
Tom
:p
I believe it is Sabre Defense - they are a major military manufacturer and they have their own line of ARs. They are pretty familiar with guns and especially barrels.
http://www.sabredefence.com/government.php
Spooky
QuietShootr
09-15-09, 19:21
:eek:
I have an early customized "Bushmaster M-4."
It is every bit the quality of a Colt M-4 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If it outsells Colt than the consumer thinks it's better !!!
They don't much care what you, or your ego thinks, they go out and put down their money for a supperior product with much better cusatomer service althought not comparable MSAR.
Tom
P.S. You seem, or come across, as being a real negative person.
SORRY?
Tom:mad:
You aren't doing anything but repeatedly regurgitating your ignorance for everyone to see.
Mods, you probably ought to consider locking this TOS-worthy turd of a thread.
tombirdman
09-15-09, 23:31
I believe it is Sabre Defense - they are a major military manufacturer and they have their own line of ARs. They are pretty familiar with guns and especially barrels.
http://www.sabredefence.com/government.php
Spooky
very impresive.
Thankyou
tombirdman
09-15-09, 23:32
You aren't doing anything but repeatedly regurgitating your ignorance for everyone to see.
Mods, you probably ought to consider locking this TOS-worthy turd of a thread.
NOW YOUR RESORTING TO NAME CALLING ?
NOW YOUR RESORTING TO NAME CALLING ?
Everything he said about you is true.
SteyrAUG, I am still waiting for you to disclose what the "higher quality" materials are. I understand that you seem to be very well versed about this rifle platform. However, to make a statement like this without being able to back it up somehow leads to the watering down of these technical forums.
That isn't the point.
The point is the gun is not an exact clone of an AUG which is what the vast majority of serious users wanted. We don't want higher grade materials, we don't want lower grade materials, we want the same thing a real AUG has.
You didn't listen to use from the start. You added a bunch of proprietary parts (forward assist, bolt catch, magazines, etc) that nobody asked for. MSAR later had to backpedal on some of these features which are removed them from the current version of the rifle because too many people bitched. We told you they would from the start and you guys didn't listen.
You also had a functioning issue in the early guns which by itself was not that big of a deal but coupled with this other nonsense made it an issue. Instead of trying to change the rifle, you could have concentrated on making a clone and getting it to work instead of adding all these extra features, case, and complimentary knife that nobody wanted.
You guys still have a magazine issue that has not been total resolved yet.
Jay Cunningham
09-16-09, 09:48
This thread has run its course.
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