rat31465
08-11-09, 13:15
Recently I joined a discussion regarding cleaning loaded casing that another member had began. Not wanting to hi-jack his thread with the information that I have recently obtained I decided to begin this thread.
I made contact with several Powder Companies asking them all the same questions…here are the responses I have gotten back from them.
some of the responses weren’t nearly as detailed or informative as I had hoped but at least I did receive responses back.
My Question
A discussion within a Reloading Forum which I frequent has led me to ask
a question from the experts regarding Tumbling Reloaded Rifle cases.
What is the stance of your company regarding this practice?
Does tumbling loaded rounds effect the powders inside?
Are some powders affected more so than others? Example. Are the Stick or extruded
powders effected in the same manner as a Ball powder or flake type
powder?
Any input you might be able to give me would be greatly appreciated and shared within my reloading circle.
David Owens
Alliant Powders Response 08/04/2009
We do not recommend tumbling loaded ammo. We are aware that this has
been done at times but it makes us very uncomfortable from a safety
standpoint. We have not conducted any testing to see if it negatively
affects the powder. Thanks for your note and have a nice day.
Ben Amonette
Consumer Service Manager
Alliant Powder Company
Hogdon Powder
David,
OK, here is the answer. DO NOT TUMBLE LOADED AMMO. The tumbling will cause degradation of the powder. This will increase the burn speed of the powder raising pressures to what may be high enough levels to damage firearms or people.
It really is this simple.
Have tests been done? Yes, tests on powders have been done in regard to degradation by vibration. Here’s what we learned, DO NOT TUMBLE LOADED AMMO.
The longer the ammo is tumbled, the worse the problem. No, We cannot tell you what length of time would be safe to tumble ammo.
Here is what we also know about the internet. There are always those people who portray themselves as experts due to the anonymity of the internet. Our responses are limited by the truth, theirs are limited by their imagination. We try very hard not to get involved in arguments on the net because of this. IF people really want the answers, they should contact us personally rather than trusting a message forum on the internet.
I hope this answers your question to your satisfaction
Mike Daly
Customer Satisfaction Manager
Hogdon Powders
Ramshot's response
David,
Powders are blended vigorously for hours during manufacturing; sometimes it’s even vibrated and shifted for periods of time.
The powder cannot be affected by tumbling inside a round were the movement is limited.
However, the danger lies in the primer, which can be activated because the brittle nature of the primer composition.
It is therefore not recommended to tumble/vibrate primed cases or ammunition.
Regards
Johan Loubser
Ballistician
Ramshot/Accurate Powders
Tel: (406) 234 04 22 email: johan@ramshot.com
Lapua/Vhitavouri
Tumbling loaded cartridges
Tuesday, August 11, 2009 10:44 AM
"Kevin S Thomas" <ksthomas@lapua.us>
Dear David,
Adam forwarded your inquiry to me, and I'll be happy to answer. The short answer is, no, it's not going to cause a problem, but I do want to cover a few things just to be safe. The slightly longer answer is yes, it could. Tumbling of loaded ammunition is a common practice for ammo manufacturers, and it's done all the time. The key is, they don't do it for very long; usually nothing more than required to remove any traces of lube from the loaded ammunition, or whatever else may need to be accomplished. I normally do this with large lots of pistol ammunition if I've bulk loaded them on a progressive press. Again, the key is, they're run for a very short period of time, never more than 10 minutes. You're obviously familiar with powder "construction" and the application of deterrent coatings such as graphite or dinitrotoluene (DNT), and I assume your concern stems from the possible removal of or damage to this coating. Actually, this is precisely how many of these coatings are applied to begin with, and the powder goes through several tumblings during its production. In short, damaging it via this same process is fairly unlikely, especially once the powder is contained in a loaded cartridge.
This said, anything can be overdone. Tumbling cartridges for an excessive length of time, or in too vigorous a tumbler could be detrimental. I can't hazard a guess as to how long this may take, as I suspect there will be several variables coming into play. The bottom line is, minimum tumbling, in as gentle a process as will accomplish the task. For my own loadings, as I said before, I use ten minutes as my own personal maximum, in a vibratory tumbler. Loaded cartridges will likely see much more severe treatment than this in the field (bouncing around in SUVs off road, etc.) so I personally regard this as an acceptable limit.
Longer tumbling times and/or exceptionally rough tumbling methods could, theoretically, create problems. These may relate to the deterrent coatings, or to the possibility of external damage . The potential for accidental ignition via a primer being impacted by an FMJ, that sort of thing. I've never heard of such an occurrence, but I wouldn't discount it, either. The key here is some moderation and common sense.
I hope this answers your concerns, but if you'd like to address anything more specifically, I'd be happy to discuss this with you further. Please feel free to contact us again, anytime. As always, we're more than happy to be of service.
Sincerely,
Kevin Thomas
Lapua USA
I found this all to be interesting...
Did it settle this debate forever...Hell No!
Did it answer my questions? To a degree it did yes.
Will this information change my or anyone elses mind on our reloading practices? I doubt it.
So what was my purpose in sending out letters to these companies?
I was hoping to get a response on record from the major manufacturing companies so anyone interested in this subject might have a little more information which could be useful in forming an educated opinion with.
Personally I don't tumble reloaded ammo and I have been reloading for nearly 33 years now.
If a newbie comes along and finds this information helpful then I will be happy.
I would also like to add that it took more than one attempt until I got back a response from one of the companies. And after a response that I felt was Terse and condescending I have decided to quit using the products produced by this comapny. It wasn't a decision made lightly either as I have been using these products for a very long time. And have for the most part been happy with. Gotta Love Americas Freedom of Choice.
I also was very pleased with the quick response and level of service I recieved from both Vhitavouri/Lapua as well as most of the others.
I hope this might be of interest and of help to others.
I made contact with several Powder Companies asking them all the same questions…here are the responses I have gotten back from them.
some of the responses weren’t nearly as detailed or informative as I had hoped but at least I did receive responses back.
My Question
A discussion within a Reloading Forum which I frequent has led me to ask
a question from the experts regarding Tumbling Reloaded Rifle cases.
What is the stance of your company regarding this practice?
Does tumbling loaded rounds effect the powders inside?
Are some powders affected more so than others? Example. Are the Stick or extruded
powders effected in the same manner as a Ball powder or flake type
powder?
Any input you might be able to give me would be greatly appreciated and shared within my reloading circle.
David Owens
Alliant Powders Response 08/04/2009
We do not recommend tumbling loaded ammo. We are aware that this has
been done at times but it makes us very uncomfortable from a safety
standpoint. We have not conducted any testing to see if it negatively
affects the powder. Thanks for your note and have a nice day.
Ben Amonette
Consumer Service Manager
Alliant Powder Company
Hogdon Powder
David,
OK, here is the answer. DO NOT TUMBLE LOADED AMMO. The tumbling will cause degradation of the powder. This will increase the burn speed of the powder raising pressures to what may be high enough levels to damage firearms or people.
It really is this simple.
Have tests been done? Yes, tests on powders have been done in regard to degradation by vibration. Here’s what we learned, DO NOT TUMBLE LOADED AMMO.
The longer the ammo is tumbled, the worse the problem. No, We cannot tell you what length of time would be safe to tumble ammo.
Here is what we also know about the internet. There are always those people who portray themselves as experts due to the anonymity of the internet. Our responses are limited by the truth, theirs are limited by their imagination. We try very hard not to get involved in arguments on the net because of this. IF people really want the answers, they should contact us personally rather than trusting a message forum on the internet.
I hope this answers your question to your satisfaction
Mike Daly
Customer Satisfaction Manager
Hogdon Powders
Ramshot's response
David,
Powders are blended vigorously for hours during manufacturing; sometimes it’s even vibrated and shifted for periods of time.
The powder cannot be affected by tumbling inside a round were the movement is limited.
However, the danger lies in the primer, which can be activated because the brittle nature of the primer composition.
It is therefore not recommended to tumble/vibrate primed cases or ammunition.
Regards
Johan Loubser
Ballistician
Ramshot/Accurate Powders
Tel: (406) 234 04 22 email: johan@ramshot.com
Lapua/Vhitavouri
Tumbling loaded cartridges
Tuesday, August 11, 2009 10:44 AM
"Kevin S Thomas" <ksthomas@lapua.us>
Dear David,
Adam forwarded your inquiry to me, and I'll be happy to answer. The short answer is, no, it's not going to cause a problem, but I do want to cover a few things just to be safe. The slightly longer answer is yes, it could. Tumbling of loaded ammunition is a common practice for ammo manufacturers, and it's done all the time. The key is, they don't do it for very long; usually nothing more than required to remove any traces of lube from the loaded ammunition, or whatever else may need to be accomplished. I normally do this with large lots of pistol ammunition if I've bulk loaded them on a progressive press. Again, the key is, they're run for a very short period of time, never more than 10 minutes. You're obviously familiar with powder "construction" and the application of deterrent coatings such as graphite or dinitrotoluene (DNT), and I assume your concern stems from the possible removal of or damage to this coating. Actually, this is precisely how many of these coatings are applied to begin with, and the powder goes through several tumblings during its production. In short, damaging it via this same process is fairly unlikely, especially once the powder is contained in a loaded cartridge.
This said, anything can be overdone. Tumbling cartridges for an excessive length of time, or in too vigorous a tumbler could be detrimental. I can't hazard a guess as to how long this may take, as I suspect there will be several variables coming into play. The bottom line is, minimum tumbling, in as gentle a process as will accomplish the task. For my own loadings, as I said before, I use ten minutes as my own personal maximum, in a vibratory tumbler. Loaded cartridges will likely see much more severe treatment than this in the field (bouncing around in SUVs off road, etc.) so I personally regard this as an acceptable limit.
Longer tumbling times and/or exceptionally rough tumbling methods could, theoretically, create problems. These may relate to the deterrent coatings, or to the possibility of external damage . The potential for accidental ignition via a primer being impacted by an FMJ, that sort of thing. I've never heard of such an occurrence, but I wouldn't discount it, either. The key here is some moderation and common sense.
I hope this answers your concerns, but if you'd like to address anything more specifically, I'd be happy to discuss this with you further. Please feel free to contact us again, anytime. As always, we're more than happy to be of service.
Sincerely,
Kevin Thomas
Lapua USA
I found this all to be interesting...
Did it settle this debate forever...Hell No!
Did it answer my questions? To a degree it did yes.
Will this information change my or anyone elses mind on our reloading practices? I doubt it.
So what was my purpose in sending out letters to these companies?
I was hoping to get a response on record from the major manufacturing companies so anyone interested in this subject might have a little more information which could be useful in forming an educated opinion with.
Personally I don't tumble reloaded ammo and I have been reloading for nearly 33 years now.
If a newbie comes along and finds this information helpful then I will be happy.
I would also like to add that it took more than one attempt until I got back a response from one of the companies. And after a response that I felt was Terse and condescending I have decided to quit using the products produced by this comapny. It wasn't a decision made lightly either as I have been using these products for a very long time. And have for the most part been happy with. Gotta Love Americas Freedom of Choice.
I also was very pleased with the quick response and level of service I recieved from both Vhitavouri/Lapua as well as most of the others.
I hope this might be of interest and of help to others.