"Castle Doctrine" at Wal-Mart

[montanadave]

Here's a tidbit from a regional newspaper.

LEGISLATURE PASSED MEASURE IN 2009 SESSION
‘Castle doctrine’ law forces shooter’s release, prosecutor says

KAHRIN DEINES Of The Gazette Staff | Posted: Tuesday, August 11, 2009 11:10 pm

A man who police said shot his Wal-Mart co-worker in a dispute over the length of a work break has been released from custody because his actions may be protected by Montana's recently enacted "castle doctrine" law.
The shooting, which took place Monday evening, is under investigation by the Billings Police Department and could still result in charges. But Yellowstone County Attorney Dennis Paxinos said language in the "castle doctrine" bill passed during the last session of the Montana Legislature required him to release the shooter until more information becomes available.
The law asserts, among other things, that a person has a "natural right" to use firearms for self-defense and is not required to summon law enforcement assistance before using "justifiable" force to ward off an attack.
"The play of (House Bill) 228 with the current law causes us some pause to do a much more thorough investigation to determine if we can charge anyone," Paxinos said.
When police arrived at the Wal-Mart on King Avenue West at about 9:15 p.m. Monday, they found Daniel Lira, 32, inside the store's loading dock area with a gunshot wound.
Billings Police Sgt. Jay Berry said that Lira hit co-worker Craig Schmidt, 49, in the face. Schmidt fell backward, then pulled out a .25-caliber semiautomatic Beretta handgun and shot Lira, police said. The single shot was fired at a range of 10 to 15 feet.
Lira, 32, was taken to St. Vincent Healthcare and later released. Police Sgt. Kevin Iffland said the bullet grazed the side of his head from front to back.
Paxinos said that prior to passage of House Bill 228 authorities would have had probable cause to arrest Schmidt for assault with a weapon.
Now, he said, they need more details about whether there was a history of aggression between the two men, what they may have said to each other when the incident occurred and other information that will shape whether it was reasonable for Schmidt to believe his life was threatened. Other details such as the size of the two men - Schmidt weighs 150 pounds and Lira weighs 300 pounds - could also affect whether a self-defense claim is reasonable, Paxinos said.
"I'll have to do the investigation while the guy is free to move around," said Paxinos, who along with other county attorneys opposed House Bill 228 during the legislative session.
The "castle doctrine" bill, which was sponsored by Republican Rep. Krayton Kerns of Laurel and supported by the National Rifle Association, sparked passionate debate about self-defense rights before passing the Legislature.
"Once somebody punches you, and you're down and incapacitated, that person has already demonstrated an intent for violence and you can't tactically assume that they're only going to hit you once," said Gary Marbut of the Montana Shooting Sports Association, who crafted the bill.
But those opposing the "castle doctrine" legislation argued that existing law already protects those acting in self-defense, and that the new code would only create unnecessary burdens for prosecutors and police officers.
"There's just such a disconnect between words on paper and what happens on the streets of Montana, and I think legislators had to be more sensitive to what's happening on the street," said Jim Smith, spokesman for the Montana County Attorneys Association.
Aside from potential legal charges, it was unclear if Schmidt or Lira will face disciplinary action from Wal-Mart. Schmidt has a permit to carry the concealed weapon, but a spokesman for the company said it would be inappropriate to discuss whether Wal-Mart has a policy about employees carrying guns.
"We are still gathering details at this time, and we're now most concerned about the well-being of the people involved," Kelly Cheeseman said.
Contact Kahrin Deines at Kdeines@billingsgaette.com or 657-1392.

[ST911]

Here's a tidbit from a regional newspaper.

...When police arrived at the Wal-Mart on King Avenue West at about 9:15 p.m. Monday, they found Daniel Lira, 32, inside the store's loading dock area with a gunshot wound.
Billings Police Sgt. Jay Berry said that Lira hit co-worker Craig Schmidt, 49, in the face. Schmidt fell backward, then pulled out a .25-caliber semiautomatic Beretta handgun and shot Lira, police said.

Seems like aggravated assault /ADW/MT equivalent) to me?


Paxinos said that prior to passage of House Bill 228 authorities would have had probable cause to arrest Schmidt for assault with a weapon.

That has to be a joke.


Now, he said, they need more details about whether there was a history of aggression between the two men, what they may have said to each other when the incident occurred and other information that will shape whether it was reasonable for Schmidt to believe his life was threatened.

That wasn't a part of the investigating officer's report?

My dog catcher gets that info in bite cases...


"Once somebody punches you, and you're down and incapacitated, that person has already demonstrated an intent for violence and you can't tactically assume that they're only going to hit you once," said Gary Marbut of the Montana Shooting Sports Association, who crafted the bill.

Yeah, I get that...but...


But those opposing the "castle doctrine" legislation argued that existing law already protects those acting in self-defense, and that the new code would only create unnecessary burdens for prosecutors and police officers.

What's different is the outcome. A high quality investigation is still done, as is a prosecutorial review.


Aside from potential legal charges, it was unclear if Schmidt or Lira will face disciplinary action from Wal-Mart. Schmidt has a permit to carry the concealed weapon, but a spokesman for the company said it would be inappropriate to discuss whether Wal-Mart has a policy about employees carrying guns.
"We are still gathering details at this time, and we're now most concerned about the well-being of the people involved," Kelly Cheeseman said.

Walmart's policy is clear, and they have terminated many other employees CCWing on company property.

This has to be from The Onion? :rolleyes:

[CryingWolf]

Here's a tidbit from a regional newspaper.

LEGISLATURE PASSED MEASURE IN 2009 SESSION
‘Castle doctrine’ law forces shooter’s release, prosecutor says

KAHRIN DEINES Of The Gazette Staff | Posted: Tuesday, August 11, 2009 11:10 pm

A man who police said shot his Wal-Mart co-worker in a dispute over the length of a work break has been released from custody because his actions may be protected by Montana's recently enacted "castle doctrine" law.
The shooting, which took place Monday evening, is under investigation by the Billings Police Department and could still result in charges. But Yellowstone County Attorney Dennis Paxinos said language in the "castle doctrine" bill passed during the last session of the Montana Legislature required him to release the shooter until more information becomes available.
The law asserts, among other things, that a person has a "natural right" to use firearms for self-defense and is not required to summon law enforcement assistance before using "justifiable" force to ward off an attack.
"The play of (House Bill) 228 with the current law causes us some pause to do a much more thorough investigation to determine if we can charge anyone," Paxinos said.
When police arrived at the Wal-Mart on King Avenue West at about 9:15 p.m. Monday, they found Daniel Lira, 32, inside the store's loading dock area with a gunshot wound.
Billings Police Sgt. Jay Berry said that Lira hit co-worker Craig Schmidt, 49, in the face. Schmidt fell backward, then pulled out a .25-caliber semiautomatic Beretta handgun and shot Lira, police said. The single shot was fired at a range of 10 to 15 feet.
Lira, 32, was taken to St. Vincent Healthcare and later released. Police Sgt. Kevin Iffland said the bullet grazed the side of his head from front to back.
Paxinos said that prior to passage of House Bill 228 authorities would have had probable cause to arrest Schmidt for assault with a weapon.
Now, he said, they need more details about whether there was a history of aggression between the two men, what they may have said to each other when the incident occurred and other information that will shape whether it was reasonable for Schmidt to believe his life was threatened. Other details such as the size of the two men - Schmidt weighs 150 pounds and Lira weighs 300 pounds - could also affect whether a self-defense claim is reasonable, Paxinos said.
"I'll have to do the investigation while the guy is free to move around," said Paxinos, who along with other county attorneys opposed House Bill 228 during the legislative session.
The "castle doctrine" bill, which was sponsored by Republican Rep. Krayton Kerns of Laurel and supported by the National Rifle Association, sparked passionate debate about self-defense rights before passing the Legislature.
"Once somebody punches you, and you're down and incapacitated, that person has already demonstrated an intent for violence and you can't tactically assume that they're only going to hit you once," said Gary Marbut of the Montana Shooting Sports Association, who crafted the bill.
But those opposing the "castle doctrine" legislation argued that existing law already protects those acting in self-defense, and that the new code would only create unnecessary burdens for prosecutors and police officers.
"There's just such a disconnect between words on paper and what happens on the streets of Montana, and I think legislators had to be more sensitive to what's happening on the street," said Jim Smith, spokesman for the Montana County Attorneys Association.
Aside from potential legal charges, it was unclear if Schmidt or Lira will face disciplinary action from Wal-Mart. Schmidt has a permit to carry the concealed weapon, but a spokesman for the company said it would be inappropriate to discuss whether Wal-Mart has a policy about employees carrying guns.
"We are still gathering details at this time, and we're now most concerned about the well-being of the people involved," Kelly Cheeseman said.
Contact Kahrin Deines at Kdeines@billingsgaette.com or 657-1392.

Man I happen to be staying right across the street from this Walmart, on transfer working for the phone company. I was in this Walmart buying groceries today and I over heard one of them saying that the guy went to his car to get the pistol.

[montanadave]

An update on this story. And while many locals may accuse the Billings Gazette of being a satirical rag, it is not The Onion.

'IT WAS JUST SUCH A FLASH OF LIGHT’
Wal-Mart shooting victim talks about events leading to conflict

KAHRIN DEINES Of The Gazette Staff | Posted: Thursday, August 13, 2009 10:10 pm

The man shot in the head at Wal-Mart on Monday said he was defending himself from a co-worker who has been allowed to remain free under a new self-defense law.
"I tried to stop him from turning back around to stab me," Danny Lira said Thursday in his hospital room at St. Vincent Healthcare. Lira, whose first name has previously been misreported as Daniel, said he was trying to push Craig Schmidt down from behind because he thought he had seen his co-worker pull a knife.
"I didn't know it was a gun until I heard the blast, and to be honest, I still didn't see the gun because it was such a flash of light," Lira said.
Lira, 32, was in good condition at the hospital Thursday afternoon after being treated for a gunshot wound to his forehead. He has a slight bruise on his brain and facial lacerations from fragments of the bullet, which did not penetrate the skull, according to Dr. Eric Dringman, a St. Vincent surgeon.
Schmidt, 49, is alleged to have shot Lira with a .25-caliber semi-automatic Beretta handgun after an earlier argument over the length of Lira's work break.
Lira said a Wal-Mart manager had intervened in the verbal argument - one of many started by Schmidt over the past four weeks, he said - and told them to stop arguing and finish unloading a truck.
Schmidt then left the loading dock area for a while, Lira said. When he returned, the two crossed paths and Schmidt slammed his shoulder into him, Lira said. Lira said he then punched Schmidt in the eye, and Schmidt turned away from him while pulling something out of his pocket that made a clicking sound.
Schmidt wriggled out of Lira's hold and then turned to shoot him at a range of less than one foot, Lira said.
"I could see his boots," Lira said. "He was standing right over the top of me and he was there for a minute, and I remember saying 'Jesus, be with me.' "
After the shooting, police released Schmidt on the advice of Yellowstone County Attorney Dennis Paxinos.
"We're still interviewing witnesses and running down our leads on it," said Deputy Police Chief Tim O'Connell. "Since he's not arrested, we're just putting the best case together that we can."
Paxinos said a new self-defense law passed by the Legislature barred him from filing any charges immediately.
"We use the same analysis as in any case, except now we're supposed to do it on the front end," Paxinos said.
Before passage of House Bill 228, Paxinos said, he would have had probable cause to arrest Schmidt for assault with a weapon and hold him in custody while authorities investigated whether he was acting in self-defense. The new law compels him to do a more thorough investigation before he can file charges to hold shooters off the street, he said.
Paxinos said factors such as the history of the men's interactions and their sizes may play in whether it was reasonable for Schmidt to believe his life was in danger.
Lira said he weighs 260 pounds and stands 5 feet, 9 inches tall; Schmidt is 6 feet tall and weighs 155, police said.
"The state has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that there was an absence of justifiable force; previously you had to prove that you were innocent," said state Rep. Krayton Kerns, R-Laurel, sponsor of House Bill 228, often referred to as the "castle doctrine" bill.
Kerns said the law, which proclaims a self-defense right, is being used as a "political football" in this case. He said the investigation will settle whether Schmidt was defending himself, and House Bill 228 only codifies his right to self-defense.
Paxinos recently considered whether the language in House Bill 228 would prevent him from filing charges in another shooting and decided that it did not.
In that case, Joseph Trinidad Reyna Jr. is alleged to have shot another man at a party in his girlfriend's home, where his toddler son lives. Witnesses to the shooting told police that Reyna asked people to leave the apartment and a scuffle broke out between the victim, Daniel Valenzuela, and Reyna's brother, Tony Reyna.
Punches were thrown and people were pushing one another before the gun was fired, witnesses said. According to court records, Reyna told detectives that he fired the gun "because he felt threatened because the people at the apartment wouldn't leave."
Despite Reyna's claim of feeling threatened, Paxinos said House Bill 228 did not prevent him from charging and holding Reyna, because the investigation showed that he was not defending himself or his home from danger. Witnesses did not say Valenzuela was hitting Joseph Reyna, Paxinos said. Also, Reyna left the scene and "went cruising," Paxinos said, while Schmidt remained at Wal-Mart and waited for police.
Paxinos said he is not comfortable releasing a shooter and does not think the public is comfortable with such releases, but he said he is acting in accordance with the "spirit and intent" of the Legislature when it enacted the law.
"All we're doing is muddying everything up, and here's a classic case of how things get muddied up," said Paxinos, who opposed House Bill 228 when it was before the Legislature.
Contact Kahrin Deines at Kdeines@billingsgazette.com or 657-1392.

[wake.joe]

Deleted

[CryingWolf]

I don't think this is fake. A buddy and I have seen a lot of police at the Billings Walmart. But I do not think this law is bad and should be reviewed or thown out because of this one incident. I do believe the burden of proof should rest on the state in self-defense cases. I think AZ adopted the same type of castle law a few years ago.

[Combat_Diver]

"The state has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that there was an absence of justifiable force; previously you had to prove that you were innocent,"

So much for innocent until proven guilty. Glad the law is back where it should be.

CD

[Telecomtodd]

IF THE STORY IS TRUE and IF they were working from North Carolina laws, then this was not a self-defense shooting. If Schmidt did indeed take the verbal arguement to another level by striking Lira with his shoulder, then it is NOT self-defense since he initiated contact. Lira hits him back, striking him in the eye. Schmidt had an opportunity to simply stop fighting and withdraw, and instead he pulled a mouse gun to inflict a wound on a 300 pound man. DUMB. If Lira had his boot on his throat or had moved in a similar way to do serious harm or to kill Schmidt, then the "right" to shoot would still be questionable, but in a jury case, it could still go into Schmidt's favor.

You can't pick a fight because you have a gun in your pocket thus you know you will win. That'll get you a minimum charge of manslaughter and a maximum of 1st degree premeditated murder.

Now if Schmidt was working the graveyard shift and was concerned about being assaulted by someone and IF Walmart allowed CCH (they don't) and IF someone directly threatened him with a weapon of some kind to inflict immediate serious harm to himself or nearby bystanders, then go ahead and whip it out. But a .25 mouse gun? He deserves to go to jail for thinking that was a good CCH gun!

I'm predicting this jerk is going to jail, and the Montana folks need to distance themselves from this guy's actions. I believe he does not represent peace loving, red blooded, hotdog-eating CCH folks in Montana...I hope.

One question - does Montana have a required safety/legal class for CCH applicants? Here in NC we have to clearly know shoot/no shoot scenarios, and frankly, I would not be opposed to more shoot/no shoot education and regular updates. I would even go so far as to be OK with yearly 1 hour review sessions on shoot/no shoot. It would reduce the number of these questionable cases and take away the anti-gun movement's arguement that people should not have guns.

Of course my crazy mother-in-law would probably give the gubmint every firearm I own when my back was turned except for one thing - they (through me) also protect her youngest daughter. She'll go on a rant about how guns are so awful - but she never goes after me or mine.

[Abraxas]

"The play of (House Bill) 228 with the current law causes us some pause to do a much more thorough investigation to determine if we can charge anyone," Paxinos said.

You know, that should be done regardless of the bill.

[montanadave]

For those doubting the authenticity of this story, the Billings Gazette's website is listed at the end of each article. Check it out for yourself.

As for Montana CCW permits, the application process is handled by the county Sheriff's Department. An applicant must show proof of completion of a certified firearms safety course. In Yellowstone County, acceptable proof can include a Montana Hunter's Safety card; DD-214 (specifying small arms or handgun awards or ribbons); or any other NRA Certified Instructed course. While the course I took prior to obtaining my CCW did include discussion of shoot/no shoot scenarios, Montana law regarding self-defense, and legal ramifications related to exercising that right, I do not think it is required content. And, obviously, the 2009 state legislature passed revisions to the "castle doctrine" which have altered the legal landscape. Additionally, CCW applicants must submit to a background check, be photographed and fingerprinted, provide three character references (who ARE contacted by the Sheriff's Department), and conduct a personal interview with a representative of the Sheriff's Department.

[couch_potato]

provide three character references (who ARE contacted by the Sheriff's Department),



What if you just moved to Montana and don't know anybody?

[M4Fundi]

Couch Tater

The references do not have to be local, just legitimate US Citizens of good standing. I'm sure they probably run your references for a background check also so be certain they are reputable. I had one in CA and 2 in Texas for mine, but then again the Sheriff is a buddy:D

[Terry]

I know no more than what is being reported, but.............. if someone strikes me and I'm down, am I to assume they will cease and decist from beating on me, or, do i have a right to defend myself?
From just what is being reported, I would say be careful who you physically assault, which is a good thing.
Terry.