View Full Version : SPRs, Recces, and training courses...
So there seems to be a whole cottage industry revolving around SPR clones and other free-floated, match-grade barreled, telescopic sight equipped accurized ARs. ACOGs, "SPR" type optics, and other magnified sights seem to sell like hotcakes. Precision uppers built by folks like Noveske, Monte at Centurion Arms, Wes at MSTN, etc, are very popular and highly sought after.
My question is, where are folks training with these weapons? What training courses are tailored toward the use of the accurized 5.56 platform?
It seems like most "precision rifle" courses are mostly geared toward .308 (and up) bolt guns.
I have seen the AAR for Paul Howe's Urban Marksman course, posted by I.G., and it looks like this is a course that is fairly well suited to the platform.
What other courses are out there, that cater toward the strengths and TTPs associated with these rifles?
Thanks in advance for any input.
A couple of months ago I came across a web-page for a guy's recce rifle build (I think he might actually post here). I liked the way he built his rifle so much so that I decided to emulate it to a degree in my current built. That builder shot his at a EAG tactical carbine course and I intend to do similar with mine. Eventually I'd like to find something with some emphasis on 50-300 meter shooting to attend. Good luck.
http://home.comcast.net/~shooter2_indy/recon.html
www.longrangeinternational.com did a DMR course recently. I read an AAR on their site.
www.riflesonly.com does them too.
NCPatrolAR
08-12-09, 21:33
I believe Jim Smith and/or Paul Howe teach SPR/DMR courses.
GPS Defense in Phoenix, AZ. Very good class and well worth the money.
Gutshot John
08-13-09, 11:43
www.longrangeinternational.com did a DMR course recently. I read an AAR on their site.
www.riflesonly.com does them too.
There's an AAR on m4carbine as well.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=33271&page=2
Based on a sample of one, LRI puts on an excellent DMR class.
http://www.stormmountain.com/media/training/cpec.pdf
Thank you for asking this question, because I am currently building a Recce.
Razorhunter
08-17-09, 22:36
GPS Defense Sniper School does a number of courses, including a specific 5.56 SPR course.
http://www.sniperschool.com/
ETA:
Damn, just noticed IraqGunz's post above...
If you don't have an SPR (equivalent) or Competition AR at Pueblo West shoots it can be depressing:p
I don't remember the last time I have ever killed that much dirt...the berms were begging me to get an SPR:eek:
We had that exact course scheduled last year with Jim Smith of Spartan Tactical. Let me give that guy a call and see what I can work out. I just found out about a new training area east of DC that might be the perfect spot.
Stand by.....
I've wondered the same thing. However....
Out of curiosity, what would be different? While I understand that any precision rifle class intended for bolt-actions might spend some time covering manipulation of the gun, and that might not apply in the case of the SPR, but otherwise what would be different? Trigger control and "sight alignment" is still the same, isn't it?
Randy Cain teaches a "practical rifle" class geared around a lightweight bolt-action in .308 with a low-power magnified optic. The theory behind that class is that these may be all we have available at some point due to legislation, but I've always wanted to take it just to spend 3 days on the fundamentals at distances that might be of use to me. Maybe I can con Randy into letting me take his class with my 6.8 upper when it arrives. :eek:
Precision rifle classes might be "fun", and I am a firm believer in learning to shoot at distance being beneficial to all aspects of shooting, but with limited training time I doubt I'll ever make it to one.
Derek_Connor
08-18-09, 07:22
My first venture into LR shooting was taking a 5-day Precision Rifle course @ Tiger Valley in Waco, TX.
Everyone else had bolt guns, I brought an SPR.
I promptly got my ass handed to me, but I learned ALOT. Not about manipulating a SPR AR15, but alot about precision shooting.
We shot mostly @ 500-700 yards, known and unknown. The class involved 1000 stalks, shooting moving targets, scenarios, team shooting, and so on.
When I wasn't ****ing up, the SPR did shine with the 77smks.
Razorhunter
08-18-09, 22:55
I've wondered the same thing. However....
Out of curiosity, what would be different? While I understand that any precision rifle class intended for bolt-actions might spend some time covering manipulation of the gun, and that might not apply in the case of the SPR, but otherwise what would be different? Trigger control and "sight alignment" is still the same, isn't it?
Randy Cain teaches a "practical rifle" class geared around a lightweight bolt-action in .308 with a low-power magnified optic. The theory behind that class is that these may be all we have available at some point due to legislation, but I've always wanted to take it just to spend 3 days on the fundamentals at distances that might be of use to me. Maybe I can con Randy into letting me take his class with my 6.8 upper when it arrives. :eek:
Precision rifle classes might be "fun", and I am a firm believer in learning to shoot at distance being beneficial to all aspects of shooting, but with limited training time I doubt I'll ever make it to one.
What's different is the fact that these SPR courses are not covering all sorts of manipulations/shooting while on the move/cqb ops/etc.
These SPR courses are focusing on sniper-related operations. Dope, wind, range estimation, and anything LR/Precision oriented. Usually the more advanced courses will get into stalking/intelligence gathering/etc, etc...
Gutshot John
08-18-09, 23:22
What's different is the fact that these SPR courses are not covering all sorts of manipulations/shooting while on the move/cqb ops/etc.
These SPR courses are focusing on sniper-related operations. Dope, wind, range estimation, and anything LR/Precision oriented. Usually the more advanced courses will get into stalking/intelligence gathering/etc, etc...
That probably depends on the course, but doesn't fit with my experience per the LRI review I posted above. An SPR/DMR is a very different concept than a sniper weapon. Dope, wind, ranging and spotting are not unique to snipers and are valuable skills for any shooter to learn.
While we didn't cover reloads/malfunctions (since it was assumed the students knew these and were expected to clear any malfunctions on their own) we did cover shooting on the move (bounding), mounted and dismounted techniques, CQB drills as well as the more esoteric marksmanship skills.
What's different is the fact that these SPR courses are not covering all sorts of manipulations/shooting while on the move/cqb ops/etc.
These SPR courses are focusing on sniper-related operations. Dope, wind, range estimation, and anything LR/Precision oriented. Usually the more advanced courses will get into stalking/intelligence gathering/etc, etc...
I think you misunderstood my question.
Not "what is different from a standard carbine course?" but "what is different from any other long-range shooting class?"
I think you misunderstood my question.
Not "what is different from a standard carbine course?" but "what is different from any other long-range shooting class?"
So should I make the assumption that one type of course is good for all long guns and one type of course is good for all carbines?? ;)
Of course you're not trying to say that, and I think that is the point. For each viable weapons system there probably needs to be a course on its employment.
A sniper rifle can do things a sub gun can't. A carbine can do things a PDW can't. And of course the opposite is true as well. Even within the M4 family of weapons a 10 inch gun does a different job than a Recce or SPR and have different capabilities. Knowing how to set up, manipulate and efficiently employ a Recce or SPR definitely is worthy of its own curriculum.
Knowing how to set up, manipulate and efficiently employ a Recce or SPR definitely is worthy of its own curriculum.
I think I agree with you, given that one has a perceived need for such.
I guess the point I was making that if one was going to take only one class in the SPR employment then maybe having such a class would be desirable, but that personally I'd rather take a carbine course and a practical rifle course (or "sniper" course) as I think the two classes together would cover a much broader spectrum of uses, and that any SPR-specific lessons would be covered in one or the other or both sufficiently.
So when I hear someone that I know has already taken a carbine course or two ask about an "SPR class" I just think they'd be better off taking a long-range class of some sort and assimilating what they learn into the SPR.
Gutshot John
08-19-09, 13:06
I guess the point I was making that if one was going to take only one class in the SPR employment then maybe having such a class would be desirable, but that personally I'd rather take a carbine course and a practical rifle course (or "sniper" course) as I think the two classes together would cover a much broader spectrum of uses, and that any SPR-specific lessons would be covered in one or the other or both sufficiently.
I understand where you're coming from and I agree that it's best to maximize your training dollar to get the widest spectrum of skills so depending on one's requirements a DMR/SPR class may or may not be appropriate.
The marksmanship techniques are similar, it's in their tactics and application that they vary. While a sniper lives by "one shot, one kill", a DMR is more like 'three shots, one kill." While a sniper will make a detailed range card usually to hit a single target; a DMR/SPR is about rapid acquisition and engagement (of multiple targets) and dopes it in his head. Given your skill level and experience, you're probably already capable of this. I cheated and took a class. ;)
One of the things we learned in that class was that the sniper has a far more specialized skill-set than an SPR/DMR and so imo that class is more relevant to most carbine shooters than a sniper/bolt class might be. Especially in that it gives you a lot of confidence in your carbine to make shots out to 600 yards making precision shots inside 200 yards comparatively easy. Two different skill-sets, both very useful.
That said, in my case, the DMR training has motivated me to get more into long-range precision shooting. I've done several carbine classes, and will do several more, but precision shooting is something I definitely want to improve by also taking quasi-sniper classes. For those that don't share that need, I'd say a DMR/SPR class is the more "general" application and represents better return for the carbine shooter's money.
Makes sense. Thanks for the feedback.
FromMyColdDeadHand
08-19-09, 16:37
My first venture into LR shooting was taking a 5-day Precision Rifle course @ Tiger Valley in Waco, TX.
Everyone else had bolt guns, I brought an SPR.
I promptly got my ass handed to me, but I learned ALOT. Not about manipulating a SPR AR15, but alot about precision shooting.
We shot mostly @ 500-700 yards, known and unknown. The class involved 1000 stalks, shooting moving targets, scenarios, team shooting, and so on.
When I wasn't ****ing up, the SPR did shine with the 77smks.
Derek, was it the ergonomics of the gun or the difference at 700 yards between a 1/3 and 1 MOA capable rifle?
What kind of scope did you run?
Derek_Connor
08-19-09, 16:54
Derek, was it the ergonomics of the gun or the difference at 700 yards between a 1/3 and 1 MOA capable rifle?
little confused to what your asking, hopefully I can answer it but the SPR shined with the moving targets/multiple hit target COFs. This, of course is old news for any precision semi-auto rifle.
What kind of scope did you run?
I used a US Optics scope..1/4moa adjustments
Never in my course was I taught "manipulation" of the rifle. Other than focusing on trigger/breathing concerns.
It was mostly spent getting dope, shooting UNK distances and so on.
So i'll agree with Rob, I had several carbine courses before this LR course. I was the only semi-auto in the course, and everything I learned could have been transitioned to a bolt gun, and vice versa.
FromMyColdDeadHand
08-19-09, 17:26
little confused to what your asking, hopefully I can answer it but the SPR shined with the moving targets/multiple hit target COFs. This, of course is old news for any precision semi-auto rifle.
Derek, I believe in you man! I only assumed that the "ass handing" was because of gear. Was it the learning curve or a difference in the capability between a bolt and SA gun that caused the issues?
A DMR course sounds like a lot of fun.
Derek_Connor
08-19-09, 19:28
ohhh..ya.
The ass handing was from the other guys in the class.
They could range and get bullets on steel damn quick..
shooter521
08-20-09, 12:38
A couple of months ago I came across a web-page for a guy's recce rifle build (I think he might actually post here).
Why yes, I do... occasionally, anyway. :) Thanks for the kind words about my site and my Recce build.
That builder shot his at a EAG tactical carbine course
Twice, actually. Here are the course reviews:
2007:
http://home.comcast.net/~shooter2_indy/EAG_carbine_2007.html
2008:
http://home.comcast.net/~shooter2_indy/EAG_carbine_2008.html
HTH!
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