View Full Version : Anyone else see the new item at G&R ?
thespyhunter
08-13-09, 19:21
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=16M_RIFLE&reference=/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi%3Fsearch%3Daction%26keywords%3D%26searchstart%3D9%26template%3DPDGCommTemplates/FullNav/SearchResult.html%26category%3DBCOM
Sweet :D
Kinda makes me want to use the BCM lower I just got for something else now, as a middy was the plan for it.
That's a fantastic price!
Julius Carbinius
08-13-09, 19:37
Sweet. I just noticed it today as well.
I'll now be adding the BCM complete rifle to my list of considerations. For my first M4, it's between the S&W M&P15 MOE, the DDXV and now the BCM over at Grant's site.
Decisions, decisions... ;)
That is one hell of a price on a great product! DD rear, T1, VCAS Victory sling and a light on the hg or fsb and your're done.
thespyhunter
08-13-09, 19:39
That's a fantastic price!
Awesome price !
Flippin nice rifle and a good price, well done Grant!
SeriousStudent
08-13-09, 20:22
I saw that, and whistled as well.
Just think how many DPMS carbines have been purchased at that price in the past. :eek:
But now you can get delicious BCM goodness, for just over a grand! :D
RetreatHell
08-13-09, 20:33
Wow... That price for the amount of quality in that BCM middy is simply astonishing! I'm sorry, but if someone is looking to buy their first AR and they DON'T buy either this or the DD XV, then... well, that just really sucks and would not be very smart on their part (I'm trying to be polite about it here;)).
Seeing this amazing deal on such a quality rifle makes me feel really bad for that guy who is in Academy right now being sold on a Bushmaster XM15-E2S by the "knowledgeable":rolleyes: clerk behind the counter.
I was that guy 10 months ago:( Of course I no longer have that rifle, but it still stings looking back on it.
Just think how many DPMS carbines have been purchased at that price in the past. :eek:
Me..before I knew better! Now I know better lol :D
RogerinTPA
08-13-09, 20:46
Very Nice! The price is outstanding!:cool:
Tommy likey...Tommy want wingey!
ETA: So, is this going on the chart now?
That is one fine rifle and at a great price.
Tweightwee
08-13-09, 23:36
Its 3 dollars more than buying the upper and lower seperately.
Ask me how I know.:D
I love mine.
Add a Daniel Defense A1 or a Magpul MBUS and youve got a great....
dare I say it....
KISS rifle!:rolleyes:
Seriously, it is a great rifle at a great price!
SWATcop556
08-13-09, 23:46
The final nail in the coffin for anyone trying to justify buy BM, OLY, DPMS, and other lower tiers......................but maybe not.
My top choice for anyone serious about their AR's.
Blankwaffe
08-14-09, 02:28
That right there is going to cut into the other Tier 1 manufacturers sales heavily.
If BCM expands the distributor/dealer network they will absolutely destroy the lower tier manufacturers.
Tweightwee
08-14-09, 06:52
That right there is going to cut into the other Tier 1 manufacturers sales heavily.
If BCM expands the distributor/dealer network they will absolutely destroy the lower tier manufacturers.
Or force them to improve, follow the T.D.P.. Maybe improve their Q.C.. :eek:
Either is fine with me.
Evolve or die.
The final nail in the coffin for anyone trying to justify buy BM, OLY, DPMS, and other lower tiers.
Sure is.
That right there is going to cut into the other Tier 1 manufacturers sales heavily.
If BCM expands the distributor/dealer network they will absolutely destroy the lower tier manufacturers.
as much as I agree with you, you still have those who "know" RRA, BM, DPMS, etc... are "as good" as a colt...
I had a friend direct me this this rifle linky (http://shop.si-defense.com/SI_Defense_AR_15_16_M4_Carbine_Rifle_p/si%20ar15-m4-rifle-16.htm) when i point out the price and the junk parts, his answer was " but its a local company" i'll support them.
you cant win that arguement...
as much as I agree with you, you still have those who "know" RRA, BM, DPMS, etc... are "as good" as a colt...
I had a friend direct me this this rifle linky (http://shop.si-defense.com/SI_Defense_AR_15_16_M4_Carbine_Rifle_p/si%20ar15-m4-rifle-16.htm) when i point out the price and the junk parts, his answer was " but its a local company" i'll support them.
you cant win that arguement...
You would think they would at least put a sight on it for posing!
ETA: So, is this going on the chart now?
Yes!
..
Tweightwee
08-14-09, 10:18
I thought the purpose of the chart is to compare M4 pattern carbines.
This is a middy, not an M4.
If a middy is added, why not rifles or pistons?
Next somebody will ask to have their Robinson on there.
I just think its a slippery slope.
I thought the purpose of the chart is to compare M4 pattern carbines.
This is a middy, not an M4.
If a middy is added, why not rifles or pistons?
Next somebody will ask to have their Robinson on there.
I just think its a slippery slope.
The N4 was added when it was just a middy because we all knew that a carbine version was forthcoming. Same thing for the BCM.
If the slope's too slipery, slide off.
If people can't see why a piston gun or an ACR, XCR, or SCAR aren't on the Chart, well...
Tweightwee
08-14-09, 10:30
Fair enough.
I understand.
In my opinion, why would you buy anyting less when this is an option?
I'm not sure I understand. Is this something G&R put together or is this coming from BCM? If it's something G&R put together, is BCM selling complete lowers or stripped lowers? Who manufactures the LPK for these lowers? I ask, because BC sells DPMS LPK's on their website.
CaptainDooley
08-14-09, 13:25
Bravo Co has had complete lowers out for a few months now. We have been told that they do not use DPMS LPKs in them and that they are high quality. Stripped lowers or BCM LPKs are not available separately.
I'm not sure I understand. Is this something G&R put together or is this coming from BCM? If it's something G&R put together, is BCM selling complete lowers or stripped lowers? Who manufactures the LPK for these lowers? I ask, because BC sells DPMS LPK's on their website.
I'm also interested if these are coming from BCM as complete rifles, or if G&R is putting them together at their shop.
I'm not sure I understand. Is this something G&R put together or is this coming from BCM? If it's something G&R put together, is BCM selling complete lowers or stripped lowers? Who manufactures the LPK for these lowers? I ask, because BC sells DPMS LPK's on their website.
We are putting them together (with approval from Paul).
We will also offer an M4 and A4 version VERY soon.
BCM does not use DPMS LPK's. We stock BM parts, but that does not mean we use them in any of our builds.
C4
How are they "match fit" and what does that mean? Was an accuwedge used in the assembly process?
How are they "match fit" and what does that mean?
I assume it means they keep trying uppers and lowers together until they get a combo with a nice, tight fit.
On another subject, I'm a complete n00b with basic hand tools and not much else... how hard would it be for me to swap out the buttstock? I know the grip is easy enough...
How are they "match fit" and what does that mean? Was an accuwedge used in the assembly process?
Yes, we used an accuwedge to get them to fit. :D
Yes, I am kidding. I wouldn't use an accuwedge to dig a hole.
C4
I assume it means they keep trying uppers and lowers together until they get a combo with a nice, tight fit.
On another subject, I'm a complete n00b with basic hand tools and not much else... how hard would it be for me to swap out the buttstock? I know the grip is easy enough...
Correct. We take a bunch of lowers and a bunch of uppers and try to find ones that have a good fit (not so tight that you cannot push the take/pivot pins out by hand, but not so loose that there is a gap between them so big that you could fit a match head).
Changing out stocks is simple.
C4
I just got my BCM lower from Grant yesterday and a BCM upper in the spring. Without knowing this-you would never figure it out. I'm certain that by Grant "really" matching them up that anyone would notice.
On a side note-I seriously doubt that any complete rifle is sent out by any other manufacturer by matching the two halves.
Another note-Whoever makes BCM's HG's are better than I've seen come from other places.
I was commenting in the Mod/Staff forum on the topic of having a matching BCM stick--my only other is a Colt! And for the price and quality--BCM baby!
On a side note-I seriously doubt that any complete rifle is sent out by any other manufacturer by matching the two halves.
No way. It is a time consuming PITA! I should charge about $40 bucks to run around my shop opening boxes, removing bubble wrap and pushing pins in to find a nice fit. :D
C4
No way. It is a time consuming PITA! I should charge about $40 bucks to run around my shop opening boxes, removing bubble wrap and pushing pins in to find a nice fit. :D
C4
No kidding... which is exactly why I intend to buy one of these rather than buying the upper and lower separately.
Correct. We take a bunch of lowers and a bunch of uppers and try to find ones that have a good fit (not so tight that you cannot push the take/pivot pins out by hand, but not so loose that there is a gap between them so big that you could fit a match head).
Changing out stocks is simple.
C4
If you just want to put a different collapsible butt stock on all you have to do is push the button on the old one and slide it off the buffer tube, then install your new one. If you want to put a fixed rifle stock on it then you need to change the buffer tube. It just unscrews from the lower. Keep in mind the takedown detent spring and the buffer retainer and spring in the process.
If you just want to put a different collapsible butt stock on all you have to do is push the button on the old one and slide it off the buffer tube, then install your new one.
Ah! Thanks! I had no idea it was so easy.
BCM does not use DPMS LPK's. We stock BM parts, but that does not mean we use them in any of our builds.
Then I would suppose Paul does not sell his LPK's for the same reason you do not?
Then I would suppose Paul does not sell his LPK's for the same reason you do not?
Paul does not sell them at all (as they are too hard to get).
We do in fact sell our LPK's and LMT's (as long as you buy a stripped lower from us).
We also sell everything in our LPK's less the FCG.
C4
No way. It is a time consuming PITA! I should charge about $40 bucks to run around my shop opening boxes, removing bubble wrap and pushing pins in to find a nice fit. :D
C4
i wonder how one of your BCM upper fits to an LMT lower or fitting a separate BCM upper to an already purchased BCM lower?? Any percentage of how many are not a real nice fit? Just wondering in case I choose to buy separates. and save a $100.
spamsammich
08-14-09, 16:52
I wish nobody had brought up the fit non-issue.
i wonder how one of your BCM upper fits to an LMT lower or fitting a separate BCM upper to an already purchased BCM lower?? Any percentage of how many are not a real nice fit? Just wondering in case I choose to buy separates. and save a $100.
No idea how the fit will be (luck of the draw).
All BCM uppers & lowers fit pretty well, but I am trying to split hairs.
C4
That's an excellent rifle at a very attractive price!
Grant: Another stupid question, if you don't mind me asking...
Would you mate up one of the Magpul MOE-equipped lowers with an upper for the same $53 price difference you offer on the lower only?
thespyhunter
08-14-09, 20:04
At this price point, with Grant "custom fitting" each rifle, how could anyone in their right mind justify buying anything less than BCM? :confused:
Personally, I think Grant will not be able to keep up on the orders ;):D
At this price point, with Grant "custom fitting" each rifle, how could anyone in their right mind justify buying anything less than BCM? :confused:
Personally, I think Grant will not be able to keep up on the orders ;):D
Now there is a vendor that provides a higher level of customer service than most. http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/6985/toastum3.gif
I have also put together most of a rifle via G&R before the addition of the complete article to the website. Wish I had seen the complete carbine before, as it would have saved me a bunch of time and effort in running down one part that is out of stock at virtually every source I have been able to come up with. Until this afternoon, I thought I was going to have to make a "field expedient"handguard out of cardboard and duct tape. (I was going to post pictures, of course) but lucked out and found one thanks to a friend who had a spare standard mid length handguard that was not currently being used. At least now I can shoot my Bravo Company mil spec carbine. Have also ordered a Troy rear BUIS, and will shortly purchase a new Comp M4 (next month) to complete the weapon. Right now, I plan to use my faithful Leupold 2.5x8 VX-III to work up some heavy bullet handloads to check out the advantages of that 1 in 7 twist. It will be nice to be able to try 75 -80 grain projectiles. Thanks to this forum I have been able to come up with what should be a superb rifle. By the way, my Bravo Company upper and lower assemblies were a virtually perfect fit, with no movement between them, even though they were a random match.
Grant,
Any idea when the BCM 16" M4 uppers will be available and how much they'll be? That's all I'm missing for my build.
Seee Yaaa:D
Grant: Another stupid question, if you don't mind me asking...
Would you mate up one of the Magpul MOE-equipped lowers with an upper for the same $53 price difference you offer on the lower only?
Looks like Grant answered my question; there are now options on the BCM rifle's page to add the MOE grip and stock as well as the new ACS stock.
We are putting them together (with approval from Paul).
We will also offer an M4 and A4 version VERY soon.
BCM does not use DPMS LPK's. We stock BM parts, but that does not mean we use them in any of our builds.
C4
Sweet! I think an order to G & R will be coming shortly after I get back from here.
Niiiiiice. Once again Grant, Good on ya man :D
I got a feeling that Grant (G&R) and Paul (BCM) are gonna be very busy boxing and shipping for a good long while. These two guys exemplify outstanding customer service.
Anyone deciding between one of these BCM middies and anything else at that price point is wasting their time. There is no decision to make other than what rear sight / optic you want to put on it.
.....
Grant,
Any idea when the BCM 16" M4 uppers will be available and how much they'll be? That's all I'm missing for my build.
Seee Yaaa:D
Pretty soon and prices should be about identical to the Middy complete rifles.
C4
Looks like Grant answered my question; there are now options on the BCM rifle's page to add the MOE grip and stock as well as the new ACS stock.
Yes. I will also be adding different options for FS's and MB's.
C4
Yes. I will also be adding different options for FS's and MB's.
C4
Should add something for rear sights too. MBUS and DD would be nice additions.
Should add something for rear sights too. MBUS and DD would be nice additions.
Yep and rail options.
C4
Oh this is going to get evil really quick. I better hide the CC.
It's too late for me... I can already hear the siren song. It's just a matter of time, now.
It's too late for me... I can already hear the siren song. It's just a matter of time, now.
Haha, so true.
And I was in the middle of getting a BCM part here and there for a second rifle build and here I am contemplating picking up a 3rd complete rifle.
:o
Grant, while you're at it you might as well also offer some color choices; I'd love to see an FDE option for the handguards, grip and stock.
I think its an amazing deal, if I wasn't in the process of trying to find a Glock 34, I think I'd be spending my money on one.
But for everyone saying that a deal like this is going to knock off the lower tier manufacturers, I don't think its gonna happen. Most of the gun shops out here have never heard of BCM, nor have too many gun owners. Same goes for LMT. For example, I recently tried working a deal with a local guy on a RRA lower I assembled with a Vltor modstock and MOE grip, topped with an LMT upper, LMT BCG/CH, DD Omega, and Troy BUIS. I wanted his Glock 34, so I offered him the rifle for $1300 minus $600 for his 34. His response was that he had never heard of these companies "LMT" and "Daniel Defense", and he wanted to know if I still had the RRA upper (which I never had in the first place). :rolleyes: I just said forget it. The "my DPMS/RRA/Oly iz tha shit" mentality is rampant in Las Vegas.
ETA: Not that its doing much, but every time someone asks me about purchasing an AR, I try to push them toward the DD Xv or Grant's BCM deal. But its hard to overcome "But I can get a DPMS for $100 less!" when you're dealing with dirt shooters.
Cascades236
08-16-09, 16:38
I'd been eyeing on of the Bravo 16" uppers with 12 DD rail. Is there any reason I should buy this complete setup and add the rail from there?
you would have to change out the FSB to put on a 12" rail.
CaptainDooley
08-16-09, 17:10
Sad but true. I was wearing my BCM hat that came with the upper you sold me and the guy working in the gun store asked who they were. I told him they were the reason I didn't buy AR from them. He didn't seem to like that too much - but for what they charge for BM and DPMS, I can buy one of these from Grant next time around...
I think its an amazing deal, if I wasn't in the process of trying to find a Glock 34, I think I'd be spending my money on one.
But for everyone saying that a deal like this is going to knock off the lower tier manufacturers, I don't think its gonna happen. Most of the gun shops out here have never heard of BCM, nor have too many gun owners. Same goes for LMT. For example, I recently tried working a deal with a local guy on a RRA lower I assembled with a Vltor modstock and MOE grip, topped with an LMT upper, LMT BCG/CH, DD Omega, and Troy BUIS. I wanted his Glock 34, so I offered him the rifle for $1300 minus $600 for his 34. His response was that he had never heard of these companies "LMT" and "Daniel Defense", and he wanted to know if I still had the RRA upper (which I never had in the first place). :rolleyes: I just said forget it. The "my DPMS/RRA/Oly iz tha shit" mentality is rampant in Las Vegas.
ETA: Not that its doing much, but every time someone asks me about purchasing an AR, I try to push them toward the DD Xv or Grant's BCM deal. But its hard to overcome "But I can get a DPMS for $100 less!" when you're dealing with dirt shooters.
thespyhunter
08-16-09, 21:21
But for everyone saying that a deal like this is going to knock off the lower tier manufacturers, I don't think its gonna happen. Most of the gun shops out here have never heard of BCM, nor have too many gun owners. Same goes for LMT.
But its hard to overcome "But I can get a DPMS for $100 less!" when you're dealing with dirt shooters.
I hear ya talkin . I look at it this way........ Anything you can get from BCM, LMT, Noveske, or anything you can get from Grant, IMO, is what I would call " boutique ". Same in the world of guitar amplifiers, for example. You have you mass produced, Peavy, Crate, Line6, etc..... Than you have some others that are mucho higher in quality; Fallen Angel, Orange, for example. They are handmade, and you pay for it. Same principal. Some things are for the truly hardcore, and some things are for the others.
Some things are for the truly hardcore, and some things are for the others.
And that's what makes capitalism and free enterprise so good. Enjoy it. It ain't gonna be around much longer ...
Sad but true. I was wearing my BCM hat that came with the upper you sold me and the guy working in the gun store asked who they were. I told him they were the reason I didn't buy AR from them. He didn't seem to like that too much - but for what they charge for BM and DPMS, I can buy one of these from Grant next time around...
I get customers that come into my shop asking for DPMS, RRA and BM. When I tell them that I do not stock them, but show them Noveske or BCM they always ask "who are they and when will you be stocking the other brands?"
C4
I get customers that come into my shop asking for DPMS, RRA and BM. When I tell them that I do not stock them, but show them Noveske or BCM they always ask "who are they and when will you be stocking the other brands?"
C4
What do you say to those people? I'm always at a loss of what to say, especially when its probably someone who's just going to leave it in their closet or something and never shoot it. I usually tell them for an extra $100 or so you can have the best there is, but that doesn't help, because then you just hear the "parts is parts" argument.
What do you say to those people? I'm always at a loss of what to say, especially when its probably someone who's just going to leave it in their closet or something and never shoot it. I usually tell them for an extra $100 or so you can have the best there is, but that doesn't help, because then you just hear the "parts is parts" argument.
Well what I want to say is that their village is looking for them! :D
Honestly, I have had a lot of success showing people "The Chart" and explaining each feature in detail.
I then explain what the TDP means and that the Govt does not doing any "the best" it can. Most agree/understand this about the Govt and this is when everything starts to click for them.
C4
Well what I want to say is that their village is looking for them! :D
I want to say that almost every single day at work, so I know how you feel. :)
Wow, if I were in the market for another M4 today, I would swoop that up!
Julius Carbinius
08-17-09, 13:44
Well what I want to say is that their village is looking for them! :D
Honestly, I have had a lot of success showing people "The Chart" and explaining each feature in detail.
I then explain what the TDP means and that the Govt does not doing any "the best" it can. Most agree/understand this about the Govt and this is when everything starts to click for them.
C4
Grant, e-mail sent. :D
And Paul looked down and saw that Grant had done good and so he blessed him with more gifts.......
BCM Complete M4's and Middy's are now up on our website and come with the following things for FREE:
1. BCM marked 30rd Mag featuring the Magpul Enhanced Follower
2. BCM Patch
3. BCM GunFighter Sticker
4. BCM Hat
5. BCM Handguards
We are also including the BCM marked Troy Rear Sight at a discounted price!
M4
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/BCM/16M4_Complete.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/BCM/16M4_Complete1.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/BCM/16M4_Complete2.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/BCM/16M4_Complete3.jpg
Middy
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/BCM/16Mid_Complete.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/BCM/16Mid_Complete1.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/BCM/Patch_Sticker.jpg
Dude. Stop. I can't afford to buy right *now* and you're going to make me spend money TOO SOON!
Oh he did, he went there. Dang it. :D
Grant, any chance one could get the BCM M4 with the Daniel Defense Lite 10.0 installed (similar to the upper shown on Bravo Co.'s site)?
thespyhunter
08-19-09, 08:22
S T O P ! ! !
I would really like to stay out of the doghouse :p
Grant, any chance one could get the BCM M4 with the Daniel Defense Lite 10.0 installed (similar to the upper shown on Bravo Co.'s site)?
Yes, but would have to install a low profile GB and such.
C4
S T O P ! ! !
I would really like to stay out of the doghouse :p
So buy one for your wife.
It worked for me.
:)
Sad but true. I was wearing my BCM hat that came with the upper you sold me and the guy working in the gun store asked who they were. I told him they were the reason I didn't buy AR from them. He didn't seem to like that too much - but for what they charge for BM and DPMS, I can buy one of these from Grant next time around...
what is this BCM hat you speak of? I bought a BCM middy from Grant and didn't get a hat... :confused:
what is this BCM hat you speak of? I bought a BCM middy from Grant and didn't get a hat... :confused:
We actually do not give hats away with JUST upper sales. We try to do it with lowers though.
So I am not really certain how he got a hat from us.
C4
what is this BCM hat you speak of? I bought a BCM middy from Grant and didn't get a hat... :confused:
That was an upper CaptainDooley got from me, I gave him the hat that came with the upper I got from BravoCompany. I sold him an M4 upper that I impulse bought during the panic when I got the email notification and then realized having more than 10 ARs was foolish after I bought it. :rolleyes: I've bought some of my BCM uppers from Grant, and some from BravoCompany. I have the hats in all colors, but none of them have the flag on the front. :(
If Grant could guarantee that I would get a BCM flag hat with my rifle, I just might have to order one. :D
Seriously though, if you add these items up individually (including the mag and BUIS) with shipping on BravoCompany's site, then add in the BCM lower, you're looking at $1200, compared to $1134. Add in the discount on an ACS you can get if you add it to the rifle in your cart and its an even better deal. It'd be foolish to get anything else right now if you're looking for your first AR.
That was an upper CaptainDooley got from me, I gave him the hat that came with the upper I got from BravoCompany. I've bought some of my BCM uppers from Grant, and some from BravoCompany. I have the hats in all colors, but none of them have the flag on the front. :(
If Grant could guarantee that I would get a BCM flag hat with my rifle, I just might have to order one. :D
Seriously though, if you add these items up individually (including the mag and BUIS) with shipping on BravoCompany's site, then add in the BCM lower, you're looking at $1200, compared to $1134. Add in the discount on an ACS you can get if you add it to the rifle in your cart and its an even better deal. It'd be foolish to get anything else right now if you're looking for your first AR.
The complete rifles ACTUALLY do come with the flagged version. ;)
Our BCM complete rifles ARE the best deal in the AR market (currently).
C4
Yes, but would have to install a low profile GB and such.
C4
Copy that. Thanks.
The complete rifles ACTUALLY do come with the flagged version. ;)
Our BCM complete rifles ARE the best deal in the AR market (currently).
C4
That's not nice. :mad:
I am supposed to be placing an order for one of my co-workers soon, I had him sold on the DD Xv, but I've told him about this deal instead. Weird though, I think the hat, patch, and sticker are going to get lost in the transfer process somewhere.
Julius Carbinius
08-19-09, 12:13
The complete rifles ACTUALLY do come with the flagged version. ;)
Our BCM complete rifles ARE the best deal in the AR market (currently).
C4
Dang it. Wished I'd seen that. Just ordered the BCM upper and lower separately. Oh well. Still good stuff. ;)
We actually do not give hats away with JUST upper sales. We try to do it with lowers though.
So I am not really certain how he got a hat from us.
C4
No worries, bro. I know you'll top me up when I get the BCM lower for my middy upper I got from you... ;)
thespyhunter
08-19-09, 15:12
So buy one for your wife.
It worked for me.
:)
Copy that ;)
I just broke down and ordered a BCM lower with an ACS. I think I need help. :eek:
I just broke down and ordered a BCM lower with an ACS. I think I need help. :eek:
You have no will power! :D
C4
You have no will power! :D
C4
I know. :( It was the flag hat that did it.
Cueball1897
08-20-09, 20:21
I just called my local FFL shop and had them fax their license to Grant a few hours ago because I'm going to call the shop in the morning and place an order for the DDXV...should I get this instead? (First AR)
PM's please, I don't want to high-jack the thread.
I just called my local FFL shop and had them fax their license to Grant a few hours ago because I'm going to call the shop in the morning and place an order for the DDXV...should I get this instead? (First AR)
Just see my post earlier on this page. But either way you're not going wrong and you're making a great choice for your first AR, a much better choice than alot of us did our first time around, myself included.
Sean Price
08-25-09, 22:38
but if someone is looking to buy their first AR and they DON'T buy either this or the DD XV, then... well, that just really sucks and would not be very smart on their part (I'm trying to be polite about it here;)).
Theres a neat little chart out there, most educational, but neither BCM or DD is on there..
EVERYONE keeps talking UP BCM and DD and saying QUALITY is on par with COLT.. but where is this coming from? How or where are they getting this REP from?
I'm not doubtin ANYTHING, jus tryin to be educated...
I'm lookin to buy TWO rifles..
1 stock, basic ar with iron sites and a carry handle, most likely WILL NEVER change that setup..
and
1 with a RAS, to throw an ACOG and a light and laser on the rails..
I just can't decide..
stock version
colt 6920 for $1250
DD XV for $999
Smith M&P15 $950
and for my
RAS Versioin
Colt 6940 $1360
DD M4 $1400
Smith M&PT $128
SO i was all set to decide between those 3...
BUT NOW this BCM monster...
ahh HOW TO decide..
d*mmit this is so hard!!
oNe
Theres a neat little chart out there, most educational, but neither BCM or DD is on there..
EVERYONE keeps talking UP BCM and DD and saying QUALITY is on par with COLT.. but where is this coming from? How or where are they getting this REP from?
I'm not doubtin ANYTHING, jus tryin to be educated...
I'm lookin to buy TWO rifles..
1 stock, basic ar with iron sites and a carry handle, most likely WILL NEVER change that setup..
and
1 with a RAS, to throw an ACOG and a light and laser on the rails..
I just can't decide..
stock version
colt 6920 for $1250
DD XV for $999
Smith M&P15 $950
and for my
RAS Versioin
Colt 6940 $1360
DD M4 $1400
Smith M&PT $128
SO i was all set to decide between those 3...
BUT NOW this BCM monster...
ahh HOW TO decide..
d*mmit this is so hard!!
oNe
Scratch all that and get a NOVESKE:D
Theres a neat little chart out there, most educational, but neither BCM or DD is on there..
EVERYONE keeps talking UP BCM and DD and saying QUALITY is on par with COLT.. but where is this coming from? How or where are they getting this REP from?
I'm not doubtin ANYTHING, jus tryin to be educated...
Oh, really? It sure looks like the BCM is on "The Chart":
https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pwswheghNQsEuEhjFwPrgTA&single=true&gid=5&output=html
It's right there next to the Colt 6920... my, look at all that blue.
BCM has an excellent rep with members of this site because they build their AR components at least as well as Colt for less money. Their warranty and customer service don't hurt either.
Scratch all that and get a NOVESKE:D
Buy once and be done with it. :D
Theres a neat little chart out there, most educational, but neither BCM or DD is on there..
EVERYONE keeps talking UP BCM and DD and saying QUALITY is on par with COLT.. but where is this coming from? How or where are they getting this REP from?
I'm not doubtin ANYTHING, jus tryin to be educated...
I'm lookin to buy TWO rifles..
1 stock, basic ar with iron sites and a carry handle, most likely WILL NEVER change that setup..
and
1 with a RAS, to throw an ACOG and a light and laser on the rails..
I just can't decide..
stock version
colt 6920 for $1250
DD XV for $999
Smith M&P15 $950
and for my
RAS Versioin
Colt 6940 $1360
DD M4 $1400
Smith M&PT $128
SO i was all set to decide between those 3...
BUT NOW this BCM monster...
ahh HOW TO decide..
d*mmit this is so hard!!
oNe
BCM is the Gold Standard IMHO.
C4
Julius Carbinius
08-26-09, 09:05
Oh, really? It sure looks like the BCM is on "The Chart":
https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pwswheghNQsEuEhjFwPrgTA&single=true&gid=5&output=html
It's right there next to the Colt 6920... my, look at all that blue.
BCM has an excellent rep with members of this site because they build their AR components at least as well as Colt for less money. Their warranty and customer service don't hurt either.
I'm glad the BCM has finally hit The Chart. Makes me feel much better for choosing the BCM for my first AR. I read through the ton of info here and looked closely at the equipment that the professionals here are using before making my decision.
After placing the order with Grant, I cried. But only once. ;)
I'll post pics of my new rig soon.
CaptainDooley
08-26-09, 09:21
Here's what I would do if I were you:
Basic Carbine:
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=16M_RIFLE&reference=/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi%3Fsearch%3Daction%26keywords%3DBCM%26searchstart%3D0%26template%3DPDGCommTemplates/FullNav/SearchResult.html
The BCM Midlength complete rifle from G&R
Railed Carbine:
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=LWR-BCM&reference=/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi%3Fsearch%3Daction%26keywords%3DBCM%26searchstart%3D0%26template%3DPDGCommTemplates/FullNav/SearchResult.html
plus
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-SS410-16-Mid-Length-Upper-Receiver-Group-p/bcm-urg-mid16%20ss410%20ddl12.htm
and
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-Bolt-Carrier-Group-MPI-Auto-M16-p/bcm%20bolt%20carrier%20group%20auto%20mp.htm
That's a BCM lower with a BCM upper with a stainless 16" middy barrel and BCM FA BCG.
Okay, so technically neither one are "carbines" in that they both have the mid length gas system, but by all accounts, they are the way to go in a 16" rifle. The railed rifle will have a rock solid, yet highly accurate, stainless steel barrel as well.
Theres a neat little chart out there, most educational, but neither BCM or DD is on there..
EVERYONE keeps talking UP BCM and DD and saying QUALITY is on par with COLT.. but where is this coming from? How or where are they getting this REP from?
I'm not doubtin ANYTHING, jus tryin to be educated...
I'm lookin to buy TWO rifles..
1 stock, basic ar with iron sites and a carry handle, most likely WILL NEVER change that setup..
and
1 with a RAS, to throw an ACOG and a light and laser on the rails..
I just can't decide..
stock version
colt 6920 for $1250
DD XV for $999
Smith M&P15 $950
and for my
RAS Versioin
Colt 6940 $1360
DD M4 $1400
Smith M&PT $128
SO i was all set to decide between those 3...
BUT NOW this BCM monster...
ahh HOW TO decide..
d*mmit this is so hard!!
oNe
Blackdog714
08-26-09, 09:22
as much as I agree with you, you still have those who "know" RRA, BM, DPMS, etc... are "as good" as a colt...
I had a friend direct me this this rifle linky (http://shop.si-defense.com/SI_Defense_AR_15_16_M4_Carbine_Rifle_p/si%20ar15-m4-rifle-16.htm) when i point out the price and the junk parts, his answer was " but its a local company" i'll support them.
you cant win that arguement...
So he's going to spend MORE (he still has to buy a BUIS) money on a local, yet VASTLY inferior, rifle? Your friend is an idiot...
Theres a neat little chart out there, most educational, but neither BCM or DD is on there..
EVERYONE keeps talking UP BCM and DD and saying QUALITY is on par with COLT.. but where is this coming from? How or where are they getting this REP from?
I'm not doubtin ANYTHING, jus tryin to be educated...
Just to be clear....
As posted, BCM is now on the Chart, as is Daniel Defense. However, since you say you want to be educated, let's teach you to fish.
Read through the Explanation of Features that goes with the Chart. This is where the real information lies. The Chart is Sesame Street, the Explanation of Features is Nova. Once the E of F has been read, digested, and understood, in truth the Chart is somewhat meaningless at worst and ancillary at best. Armed with this new found knowledge, all one has to do is cruise on over to the BCM upper on their website (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-M4-16-Upper-Receiver-Group-p/bcm-urg-m4-16.htm) and the BCM BCG on their website (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-Bolt-Carrier-Group-MPI-Auto-M16-p/bcm%20bolt%20carrier%20group%20auto%20mp.htm) and read what features are included with their upper.
In fact, BCM now has their own description and explanation of features to further add to the education.
BCM Standard 16" M4 Carbine Upper Receiver Group
M4 Feed Ramp Barrel Extension
M4 Feed Ramp Flat Top Receiver
In developing the USGI M4 carbine as one of the primary weapons for today’s infantry, some modifications were performed to the original M16 platform to enhance the reliability of the shorter barreled carbines. With the shorter carbine gas system and the increased gas port pressure, the carbine cycled faster, and at times the cycle rate could be faster than the magazine would feed ammunition. One of the modifications done to increase reliable feeding included enhancing the angle and the length of the feed ramps. This USGI modification was done to both the barrel extension and the upper receiver, creating a longer and steeper feed ramp. These Mil-Spec M4 feed ramps are part of the original CNC manufacturing process. As a result, the factory machined M4 feed ramps on the receiver are hard coat anodized which adds significant strength to the aluminum. This feature is offered on all BCM uppers and all BCM barrels.
T-Marked Upper Receiver
The contemporary M16/M4 rifle is built around the concept of modularity. All of the BCM flat top uppers feature a USGI type laser etched T-marks to provide addressing for the remounting of tactical accessories such as optics, laser sights, etc. This enables the weapon platform to be easily configured and then accurately reconfigured for each specific mission.
USGI 1/7 Twist Rate
The USGI 1/7 twist rate of all of the BCM barrels is the preferred twist rate by most professional infantryman. This twist rate has proven very versatile and can effectively run the new heavier 5.56 ammo that is hugely popular with military and private security personal for its’ superior ballistics.
Mil-Spec Barrel Steel (Mil-B-11595E)
BCM barrel steel is Mil-Spec per MIL-B-11595E. The 4150 grade (CMV) of steel is a Mil-Spec steel used in the USGI M16 family of rifles; it is stronger and will last longer than the typical barrels offered in the commercial market. The Mil-Spec grade 4150 gets its’ additional strength and rigidity from an increase in carbon and/or vanadium in the alloy. This will offer increased barrel life and performance through use in all types of extreme environments and temperatures.
Chrome Bore and Chamber
One of the first modifications that were made to the original M16 in the mid 1960’s was the addition of the chrome lined bore and chamber. It is now a world wide standard in the industry for a battle rifle. The chrome bore and chamber is harder than the barrel steel and on the USGI M16/M4 rifles will aid in chambering, extraction, and reliability. It increases velocity, and also resist against fouling and corrosion from extended use in the field. This gives the end user a longer barrel life with less required time in maintenance and cleaning.
Manganese Phosphate Barrel Finish
Barrels are parkerized with the manganese phosphate finish (Mil-Spec A-A-59267). Military specifications also state that the entire barrel surface is phosphate finished to create a porous surface to absorb oil as to resist against corrosion from the elements. BCM barrels are phosphated before installation of front sights. This is a much more extensive assembly operation, but insures that the entire barrel is finished and protected . . .even under the front sight base.
5.56 NATO Chambers
The USGI 5.56 NATO chamber is the best choice for effective deployment, reliability, and compatibility, of higher chamber pressures of military ammo.
Mil-Spec F-Marked Forged Front Sight Bases
Mil-Spec for rifles issued to the troops require taller front sight bases on all flat top AR rifles. Many commercial offerings use M16A2 height front sight bases on all of their barrels regardless of what type of upper it is installed on. As a result, owners of rifles and carbines with the flat top receiver configuration can have problems getting a proper 'zero' for elevation with Mil-Spec back up iron sights. As all of the BCM uppers are built for flat top uppers, all have the proper Mil-Spec F marked front sight base to insure the correct height for iron sight zeroing when using military iron sights. Mil-Spec taper pins secure the forged front sight base with the sling swivel secured by tubular rivets.
Government Barrel Profiles
Duty rifles are built to be carried - day in and day out. The USGI barrel profiles (often referred to as the Government Profile) enable the operator to carry their weapon for longer periods of time and deploy them faster than the heavier commercial H-Barrel counterparts. The government profile barrel is also compatible with the current M203 mounting systems.
HPT / MP Inspected Barrels
Military specifications require that barrels undergo a HPT (High-Pressure Test) load as a part of quality assurance procedures. Commonly referred to as a proof load, the M197 HPT is rated for 70,000 psi. BCM barrels are proof loaded and then MPI (Magnetic Particle Inspected) to detect any possible flaws in the barrels surface. The barrels are MP inspected with both circular and longitudinal magnetic fields per ASTME1444-01 (current Mil-Spec) to assure a high quality finished product. All BCM barrels are marked HP MP as our proof load marking.
thopkins22
08-26-09, 09:54
Just to be clear....
As posted, BCM is now on the Chart, as is Daniel Defense.
I can deduce where my DD stands based on the features we're all aware of...but I'm not seeing DD on the chart at all anymore.
I can deduce where my DD stands based on the features we're all aware of...but I'm not seeing DD on the chart at all anymore.
Chart with specs (http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Ajl2UPK0UHPscHdzd2hlZ2hOUXNFdUVoakZ3UHJnVEE&hl=en)
Just to be clear....
Read through the Explanation of Features that goes with the Chart. This is where the real information lies. The Chart is Sesame Street, the Explanation of Features is Nova. Once the E of F has been read, digested, and understood, in truth the Chart is somewhat meaningless at worst and ancillary at best.
The EoF has become an invaluable tool for me in putting together my AR's. It allows me to set my requirements based on the standards outlined and guage the value of quality vs. price in choosing parts.
The EoF has become an invaluable tool for me in putting together my AR's. It allows me to set my requirements based on the standards outlined and guage the value of quality vs. price in choosing parts.
Yes, this always the goal (quality parts and features that will best fit YOUR needs).
C4
Yes, this always the goal (quality parts and features that will best fit YOUR needs).
And it's BCM's ability to meet or exceed all the EoF standards and still hold a price point that is nearly equal to manufacturers who only may meet half the standards, that has and will continue to set them apart in this market.
For example, in an apples to apples comparison, why would I purchase a Colt 6920 (with the less-than-steller carry handle sight), when I could purchase a BCM M4 (with a superior Troy flip-up sight) for around 10% less?! I just hope Paul can continue to meet the demand while maintaining the quality. That seems to be the big issue in this market. (But what I know of Paul, meeting demand is a much lower priority than meeting the quality standard, so the value in a BCM should remain.)
Teniferman
08-26-09, 12:39
Ordered mine yesterday with ACS stock, can't wait!!! Got a DDXV from Grant a little over a month ago too. G&R will be the death of my credit card!!!:D
Stay safe,
Daryl
spamsammich
08-26-09, 13:21
Okay, so technically neither one are "carbines" in that they both have the mid length gas system, but by all accounts, they are the way to go in a 16" rifle. The railed rifle will have a rock solid, yet highly accurate, stainless steel barrel as well.
just a little nit pick but technically they are indeed "carbines" as they are less than full rifle length. Carbines with mid-length gas systems ;)
Rob,
I got a DDXV a couple of weeks ago based on the chart and info. from this forum. There is no mention of the length of the warranty. It simply says to contact them with any problems. It is a helluva rifle and incredibly accurate.
Thanks,
Eric
Rob,
I got a DDXV a couple of weeks ago based on the chart and info. from this forum. There is no mention of the length of the warranty. It simply says to contact them with any problems. It is a helluva rifle and incredibly accurate.
Thanks,
Eric
They tell me it's lifetime.
They tell me it's lifetime.
Yup, that's what they told me as well. I doubt I'll ever need to ue it, though.
Great work, Rob. Thousands will benefit from The Chart. At the risk of nit picking, the "comparison" section doesn't credit DD with a Lifetime Warranty or Rear Sight.
CaptainDooley
08-26-09, 18:52
just a little nit pick but technically they are indeed "carbines" as they are less than full rifle length. Carbines with mid-length gas systems ;)
True, true, I was thinking they weren't what is traditionally considered an AR carbine.
You guys will be the death of me yet! Instead of concentrating on my job as I put my hands into 480v electrical panels all I can think of is the BCM rifle at G&R, damn this addiction.
I have this funny feeling that my M&P15x might have to find a new home so the BCM can move in. :D
ARenthusiast
08-27-09, 03:49
The BCM looks really nice and its a quality build. Is it still a good buy if you can pick up a 6920 for the same price? Does it just come down to personal preference? Just wondering....
The BCM looks really nice and its a quality build. Is it still a good buy if you can pick up a 6920 for the same price? Does it just come down to personal preference? Just wondering....
As someone else as pointed out, the nearly-useless carry handle on the 6920 vs the Troy BUIS gives the BCM the edge. Although Colt prices are normalizing, I have not seen any at G&R's BCM price.
As someone else as pointed out, the nearly-useless carry handle on the 6920 vs the Troy BUIS gives the BCM the edge. Although Colt prices are normalizing, I have not seen any at G&R's BCM price.
Exactly. If you're an investor, then the Colt would be the better option. If you're a shooter or a gunfighter, then it's BCM all the way.
thespyhunter
08-27-09, 17:34
BCM is the Gold Standard IMHO.
C4
I was hoping someone else would be the first to say it. I have thought this for quite some time
Exactly. If you're an investor, then the Colt would be the better option. If you're a shooter or a gunfighter, then it's BCM all the way.
This sums it up perfectly
Mr. Timberlake, (C4),
I sent an email to you using the link in your signature. :D
Sincerely,
Mark Wiest
Teniferman
08-28-09, 15:13
Mine will be here next week!!!:D Thanks again Grant!!!:D:cool::D Christmas in Aug/Sep!!!:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D
Stay safe all,
Daryl
30 cal slut
08-28-09, 15:18
oh no...
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
...my wife is gonna KILL me.
Sean Price
08-29-09, 17:12
oK..so I've been doing ALOT of readin..ALOT, it seems I just have more and more questions tho..SORRY
OK you feller's have me ALMOST convinced(actually its like 99.999999%) to get the BCM over AnYTHING else..
and HERE"s a stunner for ya.. All this talk of BCM..and it wasn't till they replied to another thread in that other AR forum (ar15.com or something like that) that i noticed something.. in their sig, they had contact info email..and i noticed that hey, thats a wisconsin email..and sure enough saw their area code, 262 is the same as mine.. went to their website and LO and BEHOLD, they are based right around my way.. literally like 10-15 min's from my house!! ABSOLUTELY banannas!!
Here they are king of Kings. BCM #1 ect,.. and little old me ALL up and DOWN Southeastern WI lookin for AR-15's and more importanly KNOWLEDGE and having gone to over 10 different gun ships, TWO gun shows.. and NOT a SINGLE person so much as mentioned BCM.. nor did ANYONE even hear of them, much less have their gear at all.. TELL ME THAT ISN"T CRAZY?
Actually reflectin on that..it makes me questin MORE, their reputation they carry..ONLINE... wouldn't you think they should have some WEIGHT in their home state? Hmm..
BUT NONETHELESS, so many internet forums and threads and different users can't ALL BE WRONG.. I have seens dozens and dozens of threads and posts of people praising BCM..so feel confident that they are legit.. and good to go..
PLUS it helped that CLyde Armory raised the prices on their Daniel Defense rifles.. XV went from $999 top $1150, DD M4 went from $1400 to $1550....
Hmm.. anyone think I have an advantage price wise for a complete rifle, being that I live like 15 min's away? How would I proceed with something like that?
On to my questions..
There are two differnt rifles for sale.. what are the differenses? Looking at them, I didn't see any real differenses, unless my rookie a$$ is missing them..
BCM 16" Mid-Length Complete Rifle
$1134.00 (http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=16M_RIFLE&reference=/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi%3Fsearch%3Daction%26keywords%3D%26searchstart%3D9%26template%3DPDGCommTemplates/FullNav/SearchResult.html%26category%3DBCOM)
BCM 16" M4 Complete Rifle
$1134.00
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=16M4_RIFLE&reference=/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi%3Fsearch%3Daction%26keywords%3D%26searchstart%3D9%26template%3DPDGCommTemplates/FullNav/SearchResult.html%26category%3DBCOM
In this thread, some people were knocking the carry handle..
And it's BCM's ability to meet or exceed all the EoF standards and still hold a price point that is nearly equal to manufacturers who only may meet half the standards, that has and will continue to set them apart in this market.
For example, in an apples to apples comparison, why would I purchase a Colt 6920 (with the less-than-steller carry handle sight), when I could purchase a BCM M4 (with a superior Troy flip-up sight) for around 10% less?! I just hope Paul can continue to meet the demand while maintaining the quality. That seems to be the big issue in this market. (But what I know of Paul, meeting demand is a much lower priority than meeting the quality standard, so the value in a BCM should remain.) What makes it less then stellar?
the sights on the BCM complete are marked as BCM but are really made by Troy Sights.. is that correct?
Man, this is getting SUPER long..
but one last quick question...
HOW many different charts are there? the one posted in the technical discussion, does not have Daniel Defense rifles on it..
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pwswheghNQsEuEhjFwPrgTA&single=true&gid=5&output=html
but the one posted on page 6 of this thread does..
Chart with specs (http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Ajl2UPK0UHPscHdzd2hlZ2hOUXNFdUVoakZ3UHJnVEE&hl=en)
what gives?
I'm almost there.. The BCM complete rifle is made just as good if not "better" then Colt... and it seems the parts on it are better then what comes on the colt, CORRECT?
i.e. the BUIS's.. the Magpul MOE Trigger guard(have no idea what this is)
PLUS i really and TRULY would be supporting the LOCAL guys.. can't be wrong in doing that..
but yeah.. SKOOL me fella's!
thanks again for PUTTING UP WITH my STUPIDITY..
Again NEW to AR's.. and well I know that I wasn't just gonna buy the Bushmasters cuz the local gun dealers said they are one of the best if NOT the best.. plus this is and will be my 1st AR, I WANT TO DO IT RIGHT!!
thanks!
oNe
CaptainDooley
08-29-09, 18:24
The difference in the two BCM rifles is one has the standard M4 gas system and the other has the longer mid-length system, which is softer shooting and easier on the parts. Most people will recommend the mid-length in a 16" gun.
The reason people are knocking the carry handle is if you're going to put an optic on the rifle, which most people end up doing, you either have to replace the carry handle with some type of BUIS, folding or not, or cut the carry handle down to continue using it. So you end up spending another $55 or so at minimum (if you go with the Magpul MBUS).
Julius Carbinius
08-30-09, 09:15
Sean--
I just got my BCM 16" Mid-length rifle this week from G&R Tactical. I also recommend the BCM. It is superb in fit and finish. I've yet to put a round down range (ammo coming in this week) but I'm positive that I'll be quite pleased with the performance.
As others have said, the BCM at G&R is the best deal right now for an AR anywhere. I researched for months before I pulled the trigger, much like you. The BCM is the (hate to use the analogy) "best bang for the buck". Don't sit on it too long though, as you mentioned, prices on the DD's at Clyde just got bumped up. My guess, and it is only a guess, is that prices have hit bottom. I would imagine that it won't stay that way for long.
I know you haven't heard of BCM and that seems a concern to you. Well, until I started researching, I hadn't heard of them either. You don't need to be concerned though. When I first learned of BCM, I wasn't surprised to find that a non- mass market company was producing some the best weapon parts for the AR.
I've seen this scenario before when I went shopping for a nice set of surround sound speakers for my home theater. Long story, short version: The best sounding speakers I found weren't any of the household names (Bose, Klipsch, Infinity, etc.). I ended up getting Definitive Technology speakers. Never heard of them, but they make a fantastic speaker. Who would've thought?
This is the way I see it: the people that are the professionals, the ones that know what they are doing and demand a higher quality, better performing product, don't buy mass market stuff. If you want the good stuff, look at what the pros are using. The decision should be an easy one.
Anyway, to answer at least one of your questions, here is the Magpul MOE Extended Trigger guard:
http://www.magpul.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=354
The BCM comes with one on it already, so no need to have to buy one. Nice to have in case you shoot with gloves on.
And yes, the BCM BUIS is a Troy sight. G&R's complete BCM rifle comes with the Troy sight and at that price, is a damn good deal.
My suggestion to you Sean is to go with the BCM 16" mid-length complete rifle at G&R Tactical. You'll have a heck of a top quality rifle at an outstanding price. Good luck! :)
justin_247
08-30-09, 09:34
PLUS it helped that CLyde Armory raised the prices on their Daniel Defense rifles.. XV went from $999 top $1150, DD M4 went from $1400 to $1550....
Don't sit on it too long though, as you mentioned, prices on the DD's at Clyde just got bumped up. My guess, and it is only a guess, is that prices have hit bottom. I would imagine that it won't stay that way for long.
I betcha the XVs still are around $999.00. If you read the fine print there on Clyde Armory's website, it says, "The price listed is the Minimum Advertised Price (MAP). Please call or email (shipping@policeguns.com) for actual pricing." Chances are DD contacted them about this and they raised their *advertised* price while not really changing the price at all.
NOT: I am not disputing the fact that the BCM being assembled and advertised by Grant is the best AR-15 deal on the market right now, especially since it comes with a Troy BUIS. I don't know what people are thinking when they go and pay $1250 for a much lower tier rifle when this is available. Heck, you can even order all the parts you need to build your own 14.5" BCM carbine from Grant for $1078.00, excluding a BUIS.
thespyhunter
09-10-09, 23:00
So, to those who have purchased the complete M4 / Middy's how are you liking them?
thespyhunter
09-10-09, 23:11
Sorry, double tap
Sean Price
09-11-09, 00:37
So, to those who have purchased the complete M4 / Middy's how are you liking them?
YES, PLEASE drop feedback on them....obviously BCM is top notch.. but lets hear what you have to say about them, NOW that you have them and have hopefully used them...
2. Can yall post pictures of your BCM completes ordered from Grant? I know there is a picture HERE (http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=16M_RIFLE&reference=/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi%3Fsearch%3Daction%26keywords%3D%26searchstart%3D9%26template%3DPDGCommTemplates/FullNav/SearchResult.html%26category%3DBCOM)
but WOULD love to see ANY and all pictures of it....
3. how "stupid" would putting a carry handle on this bad boy be? I mean for my first AR I want to keep it "stock" forever, kind of like my go to gun.. simple as can be.. perhaps later on as I get more knowledge I can build or buy a SECOND "tricked" out one..but for this one, my intent will always be KISS and it will always remain stock and its a keeper for life.. u know the one I pass on generation from generation, in other words something I will never get rid of..
4. For a first time AR and again KISS purposes, home defense and plinkin around, which version would you recommend and WHY?
BCM 16" Mid-Length Complete Rifle (http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=16M_RIFLE&reference=/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi%3Fsearch%3Daction%26keywords%3D%26searchstart%3D9%26template%3DPDGCommTemplates/FullNav/SearchResult.html%26category%3DBCOM)
or
BCM 16" M4 Complete Rifle (http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=16M4_RIFLE&reference=/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi%3Fsearch%3Daction%26keywords%3D%26searchstart%3D9%26template%3DPDGCommTemplates/FullNav/SearchResult.html%26category%3DBCOM)
I mean they are the same price and include the same parts as far as I can tell..
D*M was just about to order my DD M4 but now I'm back to indecision and its between BCM complete from Grant or the 6920, truth be told if the 6920 was ANYWHERE under $1100 the decision would already be made as it has EVERYTHING i currently want, SUPERIOR quality and carry handle and its completely stock.. but BCM and DD keep it close, and price wise they can';t be beat!
oNe
p.s. Granted I never have owned an AR MUCH less shot one or ever "used" one...but ONE thing keeping from the DD M4 is the way the rail system extends way long in the front..u know beyond the FRONT SITE, I don't know but I don't like that look and that alone is what keeps me from buying it already..
Sean,
We've been over this ten different ways for you. As said in this thread and elsewhere on here, the midlength is a little softer on the recoil because of the longer gas system and puts less wear on the gun. Buy the midlength, buy a case of quality ammo, put a sling on it, buy Magpul Dynamics' Art of the Tactical Carbine vol. 1, watch it, then go shoot the gun. After you've done that, decide on an optic, put a light on the gun, buy another case of ammo, and shoot it some more. If you really, really think you made a bad decision in picking up a BCM after you're done with at least the first part of that process then I'm sure you could sell it on here at not too much of a loss.
ETA: I don't want to turn this into a "KISS" thread, because that's been argued over and over again in other threads, but taking the Troy BUIS off and putting a carry handle on it really makes no sense. If you're planning on using the gun for everything you mentioned above, I think a sling and a light is needed at minimum, and probably an optic too. I just really think that you're overthinking this decision. I wish someone was around to give me this advice a long time ago, before I got my my first POS DPMS.
thespyhunter
09-11-09, 07:05
Sean,
We've been over this ten different ways for you. As said in this thread and elsewhere on here, the midlength is a little softer on the recoil because of the longer gas system and puts less wear on the gun. Buy the midlength, buy a case of quality ammo, put a sling on it, buy Magpul Dynamics' Art of the Tactical Carbine vol. 1, watch it, then go shoot the gun. After you've done that, decide on an optic, put a light on the gun, buy another case of ammo, and shoot it some more. If you really, really think you made a bad decision in picking up a BCM after you're done with at least the first part of that process then I'm sure you could sell it on here at not too much of a loss.
ETA: I don't want to turn this into a "KISS" thread, because that's been argued over and over again in other threads, but taking the Troy BUIS off and putting a carry handle on it really makes no sense. If you're planning on using the gun for everything you mentioned above, I think a sling and a light is needed at minimum, and probably an optic too. I just really think that you're overthinking this decision. I wish someone was around to give me this advice a long time ago, before I got my my first POS DPMS.
Sean ~
I do believe Rider to be correct.
The carry handle makes no sense. The only diference between the Troy and carry handle is the "the handle".
Also, what is it that you percieve the Colt 6920 to have that the BCM's dont have ?
im late i just saw this. meanwhile i've been piecing together my new rifle and its total is upwards of 2100. :(
CaptainDooley
09-11-09, 07:31
Sean,
We've been over this ten different ways for you. As said in this thread and elsewhere on here, the midlength is a little softer on the recoil because of the longer gas system and puts less wear on the gun. Buy the midlength, buy a case of quality ammo, put a sling on it, buy Magpul Dynamics' Art of the Tactical Carbine vol. 1, watch it, then go shoot the gun. After you've done that, decide on an optic, put a light on the gun, buy another case of ammo, and shoot it some more. If you really, really think you made a bad decision in picking up a BCM after you're done with at least the first part of that process then I'm sure you could sell it on here at not too much of a loss ... I just really think that you're overthinking this decision. I wish someone was around to give me this advice a long time ago, before I got my my first POS DPMS.
I agree - I don't know how many ways people can tell you to buy this rifle. Dude, stop sweating it and pull the trigger already, before these dry up and you kick yourself for missing them.
YES, PLEASE drop feedback on them....obviously BCM is top notch.. but lets hear what you have to say about them, NOW that you have them and have hopefully used them...
2. Can yall post pictures of your BCM completes ordered from Grant? I know there is a picture HERE (http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=16M_RIFLE&reference=/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi%3Fsearch%3Daction%26keywords%3D%26searchstart%3D9%26template%3DPDGCommTemplates/FullNav/SearchResult.html%26category%3DBCOM)
but WOULD love to see ANY and all pictures of it....
3. how "stupid" would putting a carry handle on this bad boy be? I mean for my first AR I want to keep it "stock" forever, kind of like my go to gun.. simple as can be.. perhaps later on as I get more knowledge I can build or buy a SECOND "tricked" out one..but for this one, my intent will always be KISS and it will always remain stock and its a keeper for life.. u know the one I pass on generation from generation, in other words something I will never get rid of..
4. For a first time AR and again KISS purposes, home defense and plinkin around, which version would you recommend and WHY?
BCM 16" Mid-Length Complete Rifle (http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=16M_RIFLE&reference=/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi%3Fsearch%3Daction%26keywords%3D%26searchstart%3D9%26template%3DPDGCommTemplates/FullNav/SearchResult.html%26category%3DBCOM)
or
BCM 16" M4 Complete Rifle (http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=16M4_RIFLE&reference=/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi%3Fsearch%3Daction%26keywords%3D%26searchstart%3D9%26template%3DPDGCommTemplates/FullNav/SearchResult.html%26category%3DBCOM)
I mean they are the same price and include the same parts as far as I can tell..
D*M was just about to order my DD M4 but now I'm back to indecision and its between BCM complete from Grant or the 6920, truth be told if the 6920 was ANYWHERE under $1100 the decision would already be made as it has EVERYTHING i currently want, SUPERIOR quality and carry handle and its completely stock.. but BCM and DD keep it close, and price wise they can';t be beat!
oNe
p.s. Granted I never have owned an AR MUCH less shot one or ever "used" one...but ONE thing keeping from the DD M4 is the way the rail system extends way long in the front..u know beyond the FRONT SITE, I don't know but I don't like that look and that alone is what keeps me from buying it already..
if the type of light you use is a railed tac light like surefire x300 or insight m3, you can attach it to the rail that is infront of the FSP. muzzle and sight clear, light clears. rather then attaching it to the side. the ddm4 first gen is a good rifle but they have the xv out now that comes with hammer forged bbls, they have 2 models, one cheap one not cheap. i would still go with the BCM middy, there are a few T&Es out right now with traveling instructors that have high round counts, i know pat rogers with EAG tac runs one in his classes, and posts reviews on lightfighter
Julius Carbinius
09-11-09, 08:18
Sean,
We've been over this ten different ways for you. As said in this thread and elsewhere on here, the midlength is a little softer on the recoil because of the longer gas system and puts less wear on the gun. Buy the midlength, buy a case of quality ammo, put a sling on it, buy Magpul Dynamics' Art of the Tactical Carbine vol. 1, watch it, then go shoot the gun. After you've done that, decide on an optic, put a light on the gun, buy another case of ammo, and shoot it some more. If you really, really think you made a bad decision in picking up a BCM after you're done with at least the first part of that process then I'm sure you could sell it on here at not too much of a loss.
ETA: I don't want to turn this into a "KISS" thread, because that's been argued over and over again in other threads, but taking the Troy BUIS off and putting a carry handle on it really makes no sense. If you're planning on using the gun for everything you mentioned above, I think a sling and a light is needed at minimum, and probably an optic too. I just really think that you're overthinking this decision. I wish someone was around to give me this advice a long time ago, before I got my my first POS DPMS.
Abso-freakin-lutely! ;)
Sean, you've researched it to death. Now quit diddling with it and get to ordering. :D
BTW: Take rider79's advice and order "Art of the Tactical Carbine Vol. I" DVD by Magpul Dynamics. There's tons of information on there and it is professionally done. You can order a copy here: http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/Magpul-Dynamics-Art-of-the-tactical-carbine-dvd-p/magpul%20dvd%20dyn001.htm Enjoy!
Sean Price
09-17-09, 23:23
Sean,
We've been over this ten different ways for you. As said in this thread and elsewhere on here, the midlength is a little softer on the recoil because of the longer gas system and puts less wear on the gun. Buy the midlength, buy a case of quality ammo, put a sling on it, buy Magpul Dynamics' Art of the Tactical Carbine vol. 1, watch it, then go shoot the gun. After you've done that, decide on an optic, put a light on the gun, buy another case of ammo, and shoot it some more. If you really, really think you made a bad decision in picking up a BCM after you're done with at least the first part of that process then I'm sure you could sell it on here at not too much of a loss.
.
I want to note I mean no disrespect to ANYONe, yall have been my teachers and I have been the sponge soaking it all in..
Gentlemen....
I have tried to explain to you time and time again, where I'm coming from..
Besides the fact that I'm the guy that has scraped penny, after penny for the last 4 years to build up to $3000., PLEASE REMEMBER THIS..
Your talking to the guy that visited over 10 dealers in my local area and caught every gunshow around here..and spoke with as much people as I could about AR's.. gunshop owners, dealer tables guys, ect, ect...BUT Up until I joined this forum, a month ago now, I had never heard of BCM, or DD... now COMPLETE strangers who I will probably NEVER EVER see in my life are telling me that makers like Bushmaster, RRA, DPMS, and Olympic Arms are PURE GARBAGE, and that unheard of's such as BCM, DD, Noveske are the KINGz of this world....
...MIND YOU, I am located in Wisconsin my d*m self.. actuallly BCM headquarters is like 15min's from my house...
In my dozen's and dozen's of talks.. with what I thought were, honest, trustworthy, and knowledgable(obviously not) gunshop owners, table dealers, and good ol' survival guys, NOT once were these top guys EVER mentioned... PARTICULARLY ASTONISHING was that until 2 weeks ago I had not heard of BCM, I even went to local gunshops and asked them about it and was always met with blank stares..
but now in the world of online, BCM is KING.. or so I'm told by complete "anonymous" strangers, time and time again...
NOW i'm not saying that online is not speaking the truth here..but at the same time in both scenarios I'm not trying to be a lemming...I'm obviously NOT taking the local guys word as gospel and same thing for the online, just trying to get my learn on before I blow my $3000
Put yourself in my shoes.. after years of talking with actual live people, you come online, and enter a virtual world, where complete strangers who you will never meet are telling you the complete opposite of what you "thought" you knew..
again I'm not disputing anything here.. I am simply STILL trying to learn..
furthermore it doensn't seem like the BCM completes are going anywhere anytime soon, tho great price they, or so I'm told, they still are available..
plus as time goes on, I scrape MO money together..If things keep going good, I might have another $1000 to add to my $3k in about a month... :)
AGAIN I HOPE I DID NOT OFFEND ANYONE OR COME ACROSS AS A SMART ALECK PUNK KID.. that was TRULY NOT my intent..
I want to blow my $3000 for sure..but I don't want to "blow" it if YOU KNOW what I mean..
I know you guys are probably sick of my questions by now.. there's nothing I can do but continue to apologize for them I guess..
BCM is great.. I ask why.. all I"m ever told is, because they're just as good as Colts.. I ask WHy do you say that? All I get is, "because they make they're guns as good or better as COLT".. ok then...
I ask for differences between the BCM mid-length and the m4 carbine.. all I get is because the mid-length is less prone to wear then the m4. IT can't be as simple as that.. because why then even make/produce an m4 if NO one will buy it because its more prone to wear then the mid-length..but since they make an m4 version, SOMEONE has to buying it right? WHY, are they buying the m4..
I have a birthday coming up.. I put those AR books on my wish list.. maybe I'll get them, but until then all I have is this forum and google.. again I don't even have internet access at home so I have to do this when I can..
oNe
yallknowho
09-17-09, 23:45
you know who posts here? gun toting professionals and enthusiasts who stay up with the most recent cutting edge advancements in ARs. Most of the people here know more about the AR platform than anyone you're going to talk to at gun shops and especially gun shows, where people are terribly misinformed.
You can either listen to us or buy something we don't recommend and learn the hard way. Trust the people here when it comes to the AR. You will see dozens of posts about how people wished they came here before they purchased their lower tier rifles. Don't make the same mistake these people have, especially with the money you're about to spend.
The midlength system has only become prominent lately. It's an evolution of the other gas systems, an advancement. It's easier on the hardware and recoils softer.
If you were going to build a new computer, would you listen to some dumb teenager at best buy? or are you going to try to find the experts? The posters here are the experts. listen to them.
Sean,
The Internet has opened you to info on what thousands of people are buying, not the 10 people in your neighborhood and for the dealer who can only carry a certain amount of inventory.
BCM, Noveske, DD are not your typical retail store inventory weapons. They are sold mostly by online retailers. SO, your chance of stepping into your local dealers shop and seeing and putting your hands on one is practically nil.
Go over to AR15.com and look at the tens of thousands of enthusiasts and see what they are saying and buying.
BCM, Noveske are high quality niche manufacturers unlike Bushy, DPMS etc who sell good stuff but at a lower price because they do not do certain things that require more diligent manufacturing.
As far as for 99% of all users go these weapons are never going to put through the paces like a military rifle. So, yes DPMS, Bushy and the like are just fine for the casual shooter.
Did you ever hear of LMT. They probably sell more than anyone due to their contract with the military. BUt, you probably wont find them in the store either.
Buy a Corvette or a buy a Chevy. They both will get you to where you are going. The online world will steer you to the best quality whether you need it or want it and will give you their practical experience from owning the different manufacturers.
The niche sellers highly recommended on this site and the other major AR sites dont advertise in magazines. They dont have to. Word of mouth from all over the country on countless forums speak volumes on their quality.
You are on information overload and are too worried about making a bad purchase. You cant make a bad purchase. Anything you buy will go bang. As you get more experience you can try different platforms and find what you like and then offer advice to the next new buyer about what you have learned.
Now go out and buy what you want and come back and show us some damn pictures!!!!!
Sean,
I understand where you're coming from and I know you dont mean to step on anyone's toes but also see that the guys here speak from experience. The guys here have had more time on AR's than folks at gun shows 10 times over. --Having been in the military, long-time enthusiasts, industry professionals, regularly shoot and attend classes and what not. They know their stuff. Some guys at gun shows dont even know their crush washers are on backwards.
As for the issue of the midlength, This has been answered. Here's Rider79's response:
"As said in this thread and elsewhere on here, the midlength is a little softer on the recoil because of the longer gas system and puts less wear on the gun."
The midlength, having a longer gas system has less pressure over the shorter carbine system.
Think same ammo, same amount of gas:
A. Short travel of 7" from chamber to port and another 7" back to gas key.
vs.
B. Longer travel of 9" from chamber to port and another 9" back to gas key.
LEss pressure on the 9 naturally and in turn, less stress on parts, thus, less wear.
As for BCM's quality, Rob has posted BCM's specs.
Bushmaster and DPMS dont have this kind of info on their sites simply because they dont follow these specs. -- You can check Rob's chart to see their respective specs.
...on a side note, batch testing is a world away from individual testing. Also, MP inspection only matters if the part being inspected has been High Pressure Tested before hand.
I hope you find the right one for you. I know what a real pain it is to get the wrong rifle esp when no one wants to buy it off you for that very reason.
IMHO, you cant go wrong with BCM. Get a BCM Bolt carrier group to match and shoot it. Mods come later when you know what you want and need. -- another thing I learned the hard way. :D
Browse and learn. THere's a lot of good info around the site.
spamsammich
09-18-09, 02:30
15 min from BCM? Why not head down there yourself and meet Paul? Ask him any questions you feel weren't answered adequately on this forum. You don't have to ice skate uphill and try to distill all the info about BCM/Colt/LMT etc on your own, ask the guys at BCM. It seems to me that you've asked everybody and their brother for info, why not get it straight from the source?
3. how "stupid" would putting a carry handle on this bad boy be? I mean for my first AR I want to keep it "stock" forever, kind of like my go to gun.. simple as can be.. perhaps later on as I get more knowledge I can build or buy a SECOND "tricked" out one..but for this one, my intent will always be KISS and it will always remain stock and its a keeper for life.. u know the one I pass on generation from generation, in other words something I will never get rid of.. ..
That carry handle was state of the art in the early 60's when the M16/AR15 was first designed. Then, it was an integral part of the weapon. Mainly, the handle is a place for the rear sight. No one, more than an hour into the shooting portion of basic training, uses the handle to "carry" their rifle. The BCM and DD rifles you've looked at all have a flat top configuration, with a rear sight on the rail. Attaching a handle is a big step backwards. It's not even really "stock," as most M16s and M4s in actual combat use end up with some kind of optic on the flat-top rail. KISS would be to buy one of the rifles you are considering, get some ammo, zero those iron sights, and shoot to your hearts content.
BTW - I had never heard of BCM or LMT until I started researching ARs on the internet, However, when I went into my local shop and told the guy that I didn't want any Bushies, but would really like to look at the 2 LMTs on the wall back in the corner, you could see him change his attitude quickly. He quickly pointed out some features I already knew about and wanted, but then showed me that one rifle, that had just come in, had the new design charging handle. He knew his stuff and treated me like I did, too. I walked out a little later with that rifle, some XM193, and a carrying bag. I'm happy with that, but am considering Grant's complete BCM middy for my kid, when he gets transfered out on New Jersey. (I wouldn't subject him to a Jersey legal gun.)
I'll be honest here, after all that, the asshole in me wants to just say go buy a Bushmaster or DPMS if that's how you feel about it. But the advice I gave you is exactly what I wish I would have done. I spent all kinds of money and time on subpar guns and parts and I regret it. But I think Grant said it best in another post as to why BCM, Noveske, DD, and Colt are better. The military has a set of tech specs that are the minimum standard the military will accept for one of their weapons, it's called the TDP. The government buys from the lowest bidder, when have you ever seen the government go with the best possible option? If the minimum they will take is the Colt standard, and DPMS, etc. don't even meet that, then what does that say about their quality?
SWATcop556
09-18-09, 04:14
Sean, this is not meant to disrespect at all, from the sounds of it you are putting too much thought into the middie having less wear and tear.
Both the carbine or middie will serve you well and I seriously doubt you will ever have a need for another AR other than wanting a new one.
I carry a BCM 11.5 upper, which has the carbine gas system, on a LMT lower with thousands of rounds through it. No issues. I trust my life with it every day at work.
I carry a BCM middie on a Noveske lower in the patrol car with thousands of rounds through it. No issues. I trust my life with it every day.
Quit over thinking it an buy the ****ing BCM!!!!!!! :D
Take care and feel free to PM me with any questions you may still have.
CaptainDooley
09-18-09, 08:44
To me we're almost at the point of disrespect. You've heard everyone's opinion/analysis/experience. Either you trust what we've had to say and you buy your purchase accordingly, or you need to thank us for our time and move on. It's a trust thing - if you don't trust all the opinions here, fine, but stop asking us to repeat ourselves when you already know what we're going to say.
I want to note I mean no disrespect to ANYONe, yall have been my teachers and I have been the sponge soaking it all in..
Gentlemen....
I have tried to explain to you time and time again, where I'm coming from..
Besides the fact that I'm the guy that has scraped penny, after penny for the last 4 years to build up to $3000., PLEASE REMEMBER THIS..
Your talking to the guy that visited over 10 dealers in my local area and caught every gunshow around here..and spoke with as much people as I could about AR's.. gunshop owners, dealer tables guys, ect, ect...BUT Up until I joined this forum, a month ago now, I had never heard of BCM, or DD... now COMPLETE strangers who I will probably NEVER EVER see in my life are telling me that makers like Bushmaster, RRA, DPMS, and Olympic Arms are PURE GARBAGE, and that unheard of's such as BCM, DD, Noveske are the KINGz of this world....
...MIND YOU, I am located in Wisconsin my d*m self.. actuallly BCM headquarters is like 15min's from my house...
In my dozen's and dozen's of talks.. with what I thought were, honest, trustworthy, and knowledgable(obviously not) gunshop owners, table dealers, and good ol' survival guys, NOT once were these top guys EVER mentioned... PARTICULARLY ASTONISHING was that until 2 weeks ago I had not heard of BCM, I even went to local gunshops and asked them about it and was always met with blank stares..
but now in the world of online, BCM is KING.. or so I'm told by complete "anonymous" strangers, time and time again...
NOW i'm not saying that online is not speaking the truth here..but at the same time in both scenarios I'm not trying to be a lemming...I'm obviously NOT taking the local guys word as gospel and same thing for the online, just trying to get my learn on before I blow my $3000
Put yourself in my shoes.. after years of talking with actual live people, you come online, and enter a virtual world, where complete strangers who you will never meet are telling you the complete opposite of what you "thought" you knew..
again I'm not disputing anything here.. I am simply STILL trying to learn..
furthermore it doensn't seem like the BCM completes are going anywhere anytime soon, tho great price they, or so I'm told, they still are available..
plus as time goes on, I scrape MO money together..If things keep going good, I might have another $1000 to add to my $3k in about a month... :)
AGAIN I HOPE I DID NOT OFFEND ANYONE OR COME ACROSS AS A SMART ALECK PUNK KID.. that was TRULY NOT my intent..
I want to blow my $3000 for sure..but I don't want to "blow" it if YOU KNOW what I mean..
I know you guys are probably sick of my questions by now.. there's nothing I can do but continue to apologize for them I guess..
BCM is great.. I ask why.. all I"m ever told is, because they're just as good as Colts.. I ask WHy do you say that? All I get is, "because they make they're guns as good or better as COLT".. ok then...
I ask for differences between the BCM mid-length and the m4 carbine.. all I get is because the mid-length is less prone to wear then the m4. IT can't be as simple as that.. because why then even make/produce an m4 if NO one will buy it because its more prone to wear then the mid-length..but since they make an m4 version, SOMEONE has to buying it right? WHY, are they buying the m4..
I have a birthday coming up.. I put those AR books on my wish list.. maybe I'll get them, but until then all I have is this forum and google.. again I don't even have internet access at home so I have to do this when I can..
oNe
I guess it is time for me to teach a little lesson about the gun world. Here are some truths for you:
1. Most Gun Store employees don't know crap and are as bad as used car salesmen.
2. Gun shows are the WORST place to gain info.
3. 80% of most AR owners are dirt shooters (no training or experience with any other AR outside of theirs). They also tend to shoot no more than 100RDS a month and believe that makes their AR the most reliable.
4. The AR industry is full of manufacturers that basically lie about their specs and quality (snake oil salesmen).
The reason why the mid-length gas system is viewed as superior to the carbine gas system is really simple. Less pressure and heat. These two things cause bolts to break faster. Less pressure = less felt recoil. This means that the gun gets back on target faster. This is why you typically NEVER see competition shooters running carbine gas operated AR's. This would be known as a "clue!"
The only way to really compare AR's is to line up the spec's. If you do not know what the Govt calls out for a standard, then you have NO way to judge them as they all look the same. This is the mistake that 80% of new AR makers make.
Do your research by reading Rob's chart. Understand what the TDP calls for. Then make your decision based on what will best fit your needs.
C4
Julius Carbinius
09-18-09, 14:47
I guess it is time for me to teach a little lesson about the gun world. Here are some truths for you:
1. Most Gun Store employees don't know crap and are as bad as used car salesmen.
2. Gun shows are the WORST place to gain info.
3. 80% of most AR owners are dirt shooters (no training or experience with any other AR outside of theirs). They also tend to shoot no more than 100RDS a month and believe that makes their AR the most reliable.
4. The AR industry is full of manufacturers that basically lie about their specs and quality (snake oil salesmen).
The reason why the mid-length gas system is viewed as superior to the carbine gas system is really simple. Less pressure and heat. These two things cause bolts to break faster. Less pressure = less felt recoil. This means that the gun gets back on target faster. This is why you typically NEVER see competition shooters running carbine gas operated AR's. This would be known as a "clue!"
The only way to really compare AR's is to line up the spec's. If you do not know what the Govt calls out for a standard, then you have NO way to judge them as they all look the same. This is the mistake that 80% of new AR makers make.
Do your research by reading Rob's chart. Understand what the TDP calls for. Then make your decision based on what will best fit your needs.
C4
Well said, Grant. That is insight that civvies like me don't typically have access to.
Although the BCM mid-length seems to be the popular recommendation so far, my gut tells me that Mr. Price will be going with the 6920. ;)
Well said, Grant. That is insight that civvies like me don't typically have access to.
Although the BCM mid-length seems to be the popular recommendation so far, my gut tells me that Mr. Price will be going with the 6920. ;)
At this point I really don't care if he goes with the DPMS.
Julius Carbinius
09-18-09, 15:09
At this point I really don't care if he goes with the DPMS.
I hear ya. I'm about at that point with it too. I think he had his mind set on something already... ;)
Maybe he'll really show us and buy an Oly!
Well said, Grant. That is insight that civvies like me don't typically have access to.
Although the BCM mid-length seems to be the popular recommendation so far, my gut tells me that Mr. Price will be going with the 6920. ;)
Thanks. I hate to say it, but some of the dumbest CHIT I have ever heard came from my fellow FFL dealers.
If he buys a 6920, that is just fine as well as it is a quality weapon.
C4
I think he expected to start building a gun collection with his $3000, and it didn't sit right with him when the members here told him to buy one quality gun, set it up right, buy ammo, and take a class. Instead he expected to buy 3 POS guns, and start a mini gun collection.
Julius Carbinius
09-18-09, 16:26
I think he expected to start building a gun collection with his $3000, and it didn't sit right with him when the members here told him to buy one quality gun, set it up right, buy ammo, and take a class. Instead he expected to buy 3 POS guns, and start a mini gun collection.
Bingo! :D
CaptainDooley
09-18-09, 16:29
Which baffles me... if I had $3K to blow on guns, I'd want to spend as much of it on shooting and/or learning to shoot - not getting a bunch of crap to stick in a safe that I can't shoot because I'm out of scratch... but that's just me I guess.
oh my DOG! what a train wreck...
Which baffles me... if I had $3K to blow on guns, I'd want to spend as much of it on shooting and/or learning to shoot - not getting a bunch of crap to stick in a safe that I can't shoot because I'm out of scratch... but that's just me I guess.
I said what I said, because I did the same thing. I got a job where I started making decent money, I wanted an AR, so I bought a DPMS. Then I bought another, and I bought an RRA. Then I kinda got a clue and picked up an LMT lower locally, but I put a Stag upper on it. So I was like cool, now I have a safe full of guns. But I started shooting them, and found out what a POS DPMS is, same for the RRA. So I came on here, and found out that I had a safe full of junk. Sold it all, replaced it with BCM and LMT, now I have quality stuff. And no time to shoot. :( But I did help fund Grant's kids' college education in the process. :D If I could have done it over again I'd spend my first $3000 exactly the way I told this guy to do. If there was a local opportunity to take Magpul Dynamic level classes and they were on my days off during the week, I'd probably go once a month.
justin_247
09-19-09, 06:31
After reading through all of this, I can't help but wonder why he hasn't opened The Chart, yet. Everything he has asked is explained in there, but he just won't listen. I think he already has his mind made up.
Secondly, if he's so desperate for money, perhaps he needs to seriously consider buying only one quality rifle that will serve him well (something that can only happen if he actually listens to the experts here and learns a little about the AR-15) and then putting the rest into savings... or not buy a rifle at all.
At this point, this thread is just annoying and I wish it would be locked so we don't have to deal with another grammatically insane rant.
I hate to say it, but some of the dumbest CHIT I have ever heard came from my fellow FFL dealers.
C4
Thanks to this site I really can't even walk into one of our local shops. I deal with my friend's shop, the one in my sig line, because he's pretty honest, if he doesn't know something, he tells you he doesn't know. Doesn't blow smoke up your ass like every other shop in town.
Thanks to this site I really can't even walk into one of our local shops. I deal with my friend's shop, the one in my sig line, because he's pretty honest, if he doesn't know something, he tells you he doesn't know. Doesn't blow smoke up your ass like every other shop in town.
Ya I tell people all the time that I have no idea. :D
For whatever reason, people always want me to tell them what to buy. I guess they assume that my lack of knowledge is better than their lack of knowledge.
C4
Sean Price
09-19-09, 23:51
I think he expected to start building a gun collection with his $3000, and it didn't sit right with him when the members here told him to buy one quality gun, set it up right, buy ammo, and take a class. Instead he expected to buy 3 POS guns, and start a mini gun collection.
ahh, woe is me, this type of response and the one's that followed, was EXACTLY what i was attempting to avoid.. I guess some people get upset if you don't follow their lead and get down on your hands and knee's to thank them! wink, wink! seriously I'm just playing around..
I simply don't understand what you gents don't get about what I'm trying to do..
from the very beginning I said my FIRST and MOST IMPORTANT goal was to learn.. LEARN and LEARN all about the AR-15..
I started by reading the chart.. twice actually, then i specifically posted that there were some parts that I didn't understand..hence my "annoying" questions..i then read as much threads as possible regarding "what should my 1st AR be" and then finally I worked up the courage to make some posts.. because well< I seen how your "kind" dogs us ignorant one's.. not on this forum but I observed it on other forums.. ar-15.com mainly..
I ALREADY knew that Bush, DPMS, OLY, ect. were not necessarily garbage but that they were no where near the best or even close.. BUT NOW thanks to you gents.. I KNOW that BCM, DD, KAC, and a few others are above and beyond even COLT and its standards..
In todays times.. $3000 WILL get you 3 NON POS guns.. it actually would net you 2-3 HIGH, HIGH end rifles.. I mean the XV is only $999 for petes sake!! 3 of those would only be $3000..
But whats getting to me is this.. I have, at least I feel I have.. been nothing but respectful and grateful to ALL of you for your precious time and information and NOW because I still seek knowledge and understand you guys begin to bash me..
There really is no need to knock me down, and ridicule me.. I have shown nothing but respect for all yall.. and again am most grateful to yall< i have learned a lot..
TOMORROW there is a local gun show.. and I will be visiting it and talking to as much people as possible.. and THIS TIME around I actually will probably know more about AR's then anyone there thanks to the CHART and you helpful gents..
BUT never EVER would I have taken the dealers word, "hey bushmaster is the best", common sense told me better, even without this forum...
To save $3000 took me over FOUR years, so I have nothing but time on on my hands.. and the more info I get, I think the better.. and I am in no way in any kind of rush.. I don't think these gun prices will go up anytime soon.. and if they do.. oh well my loss...
well this is getting longer then I intended...so I'll cut it short now..
I never EVER intended on buying Bush, DPSM, or OLY,...
In fact the "lowest" i was ever going for was COLT....but now I know better ;)
and YES still buying all 3 at the same time!! or so i hope!!
Swatcop, FDXpilot, yallknowho, lmmmm, Col Cro's.. special thanks for YOUR time and information.. it was exactly what I was lookin for,... now I know whats up with the carry handle, awesome stuff!!
BUT I'LL stop asking my "stupid" annoying questions and posting here..I apologize for annoying you all and for somehow p*ssing you off... was just hoping this forum wasn't like all the others.. this one had the feel of a small community which is why I joined..
Thanks for letting me be a part of it.. like I said, I learned alot! I'll just continue to read and maybe once I get my guns I'll post!! :)
I wanted Colt....
but NOW i know better..
so its between...
BCM complete from grant.. or the DD XV
...but it seems, that BCM is the better buy...but it does cost $200 more then the XV
so I will most likely be going with the BCM from grant.. if I can find a non player hating dealer that will allow me the FFL deal..
and remember..YOU all act like if I buy my guns today, that I can never buy ammo again...
I mean sure it might be STUPID to get all 3 guns at the same time..but I have my reasons(which I have posted numerous times) but that DOESN'T mean that as time goes by and funds permit that I can buy more ammo some day in the future!! sheesh!
well I'm off to bed now, and then the gun show...
hoping to see and hold an actual QUALITY AR, read: colt or DD or BCM..
oNe
p.s. As I said b4 no internet access at home...lets see you type a post from your iphone? i.e. why I always start out good but towards the end....
... so we don't have to deal with another grammatically insane rant.
RetreatHell
09-20-09, 00:39
Sean,
If it took you 4 years to save up $3,000, and you're going to use it to buy 3 ARs, how long is it going to take you to be able to save up enough for ammo to shoot your new carbines, dude? They are seriously going to be like 3 oversized paper weights. brother!
Seriously man, just use some common sense here. It is stupid to buy 3 ARs all at once in your situation. The only guys who have any legitimate reason to buy 3 carbines at once are guys who make $3,000 in one week, not saving up $3,000 in 4 years.
If it truly took you that damn long to save up that money, why on earth would you effectively blow it on 3 ARs when you only need 1 quality carbine? If you actually get 3 of them all at once and have zero cash to buy anything for them (including ammo, which I have heard once or twice is sort of vital to this whole shooting thing), you're going to regret it and feel like an ass.
For the love of God, Sean, listen to what everyone here is telling you. Get that Colt, BCM or DD you're wanting (ONE of them, NOT all three!!), buy 5 Magpul PMAG Magazines, and buy a case of 1,000 rounds of decent ammo. Put the rest of the money aside for the time being and shoot your new rifle a lot with just iron sights.
After you've shot either the majority or all of that initial case of ammo, buy another case of ammo, and use whatever money's left over to maybe buy yourself a decent aimpoint red dot sight, sling, vertical fore grip, and whatever other accessories you can afford and think you need.
That's it, brother. That's all I got for you. Oh yeah, one more thing, get some thicker skin too, man. You've gotta learn to be able to take some (very) constructive criticism, especially when it's for your own good and coming from people who genuinely are trying to help you not make a lot of the same mistakes that they (and I) did in the past. You can't get all butt-hurt when people here might bust your balls a bit. You just gotta SITFU, amigo!;)
Take care Sean, and good luck!
thespyhunter
09-20-09, 01:21
What I want to know is how did my thread about the great deals Grant is offering on top quality BCM rifles get "jacked" by Sean Price and his gross unwillingness to listen to the advice he asked for :confused: :confused:
justin_247
09-20-09, 01:25
Glad to see you're going to get a Colt, BCM, or DD! :)
Seriously man, just use some common sense here. It is stupid to buy 3 ARs all at once in your situation. The only guys who have any legitimate reason to buy 3 carbines at once are guys who make $3,000 in one week, not saving up $3,000 in 4 years.
If it truly took you that damn long to save up that money, why on earth would you effectively blow it on 3 ARs when you only need 1 quality carbine? If you actually get 3 of them all at once and have zero cash to buy anything for them (including ammo, which I have heard once or twice is sort of vital to this whole shooting thing), you're going to regret it and feel like an ass.
For the love of God, Sean, listen to what everyone here is telling you. Get that Colt, BCM or DD you're wanting (ONE of them, NOT all three!!), buy 5 Magpul PMAG Magazines, and buy a case of 1,000 rounds of decent ammo. Put the rest of the money aside for the time being and shoot your new rifle a lot with just iron sights.
After you've shot either the majority or all of that initial case of ammo, buy another case of ammo, and use whatever money's left over to maybe buy yourself a decent aimpoint red dot sight, sling, vertical fore grip, and whatever other accessories you can afford and think you need.
+1
I post from my iPhone all the time, doing it right now from work. The thing that got myself and others annoyed was that you repeatedly asked the same questions, got the same answers, then asked the same questions again, then started another thread to ask the same questions. I even laid out a way for you to spend your $3000 in the other thread. Yes, $3k might get you 3 guns, even decent ones, but what about taxes, transfer, ammo, accessories? Do whatever you want bro, I'm just saying I've been down this path before.
CaptainDooley
09-20-09, 07:21
p.s. As I said b4 no internet access at home...lets see you type a post from your iphone? i.e. why I always start out good but towards the end....
Wait, I'm trying to remember... you've been out of work how long? It took you four years to save up $3k because of unemployment and still trying to take care of your family... but you have an iPhone? Hmm...
By the way, the iPhone would have corrected your non-capitalization of the "P" in iPhone earlier as it has every time I've typed iPhone in this post.
That aside, Sean, you've posted and posted and derailed threads. Either take the great advice you've gotten here or do whatever the hell you want man. Just quit wasting everyone's time, alright?
I was going to email this but I'll just ask here in case anyone else wants to know.
Grant, is the BCM mid length available with foliage green hand guards?
spamsammich
09-20-09, 10:09
If you guys are really that annoyed at Sean, just put him on ignore or unsubscribe to this thread.
What I want to know is how did my thread about the great deals Grant is offering on top quality BCM rifles get "jacked" by Sean Price and his gross unwillingness to listen to the advice he asked for :confused: :confused:
I will be the first to change it! I ordered a Middy with the Omega rail and CTR stock last week! Should be here early next week I guess and I'll post pics and/or report if anyone is interested. Kudos to Grant!
What I want to know is how did my thread about the great deals Grant is offering on top quality BCM rifles get "jacked" by Sean Price and his gross unwillingness to listen to the advice he asked for :confused: :confused:
I believe the term is "attention whore"...
thespyhunter
09-20-09, 12:41
I will be the first to change it! I ordered a Middy with the Omega rail and CTR stock last week! Should be here early next week I guess and I'll post pics and/or report if anyone is interested. Kudos to Grant!
I, for one, would like to know how you like it ; your thoughts and impressions.
Julius Carbinius
09-20-09, 13:49
For the love of God, Sean, listen to what everyone here is telling you.
He's not. A few posts ago he was given some great advice:
I guess it is time for me to teach a little lesson about the gun world. Here are some truths for you:
1. Most Gun Store employees don't know crap and are as bad as used car salesmen.
2. Gun shows are the WORST place to gain info.
3. 80% of most AR owners are dirt shooters (no training or experience with any other AR outside of theirs). They also tend to shoot no more than 100RDS a month and believe that makes their AR the most reliable.
4. The AR industry is full of manufacturers that basically lie about their specs and quality (snake oil salesmen).
Yet, today he's at the gun show "talking to as much people as possible".
People who ask for advice and then ignore it are doing nothing more than wasting your time. I'm done with this guy.
thespyhunter: I'm loving my BCM middy I got from Grant. Very glad I made the purchase.
Jay Cunningham
09-20-09, 14:15
Okay, this thread is moments from getting smashed - it's up to you all if it lives or dies. My finger is poised over the shiny red button...
Every one of my ARs, with the exception of a midlength upper built by Grant and bought 2nd hand, has a BCM midlength upper. So I guess you could say I really like the BCM midlengths. Only one is on a BCM lower though, so I guess that's the only official "complete" one I have. Haven't had a chance to shoot it, so I can't really give any impressions yet.
Sean Price
09-20-09, 21:22
What I want to know is how did my thread about the great deals Grant is offering on top quality BCM rifles get "jacked" by Sean Price and his gross unwillingness to listen to the advice he asked for :confused: :confused:
your absolutely correct... I apologize for steering this thread the wrong way.. I take full ownership of that wrong..
lets get it back on track gents, no more bickering..
lets keep the discussion in this thread about the BCM completes from Grant..
I will be buying the BCM mid-length complete from Grant, I plan to shoot it, learn it inside out! I've actually registered to take a carbine course this coming fall!
My question is this, is the BCM Mid-Length Complete from G&R Tactical upgradable?
As time and funds permit, will I be able to transform this piece into my dream rifle?
MY Dream Rifle: one HIGH QUALITY AR-15 rifle, with an RIS and a pentagon light/laser combo and a Trijicon ACOG, with BUIS <-- pretty simple que no?
So I want to add a rail interface system, RIS... its I believe what you all call the RAS.. is there a difference? not sure...
Is this feasible on this item, or would I be better off building it piece by piece?
Again basically just a flashlight/laser combo on a rail system on the rifle...and from what I learned the ACOG would not interfere with the Troy BUIS's.. correct?
I guess then, all I need to know is if adding a RIS/RAS to the Mid-Length complete is an easy and not so expensive thing?
I am so ready to do this!
oNe
p..s.. the gun show rocked!!
thespyhunter
09-20-09, 23:25
My question is this, is the BCM Mid-Length Complete from G&R Tactical upgradable?
its willing to take all the cash you want to throw at it ;):D
My BCM middy got to my FFL thurs. Was going to take some pics and get a review to everyone.
I called today at 2:00 only to call back at 4:30 (he is a private FFL who is a M.D. during the day). I call and he says,
Him: "You're the one with the Stag?"
Me: "Ummmm no, I have the Bravo Co AR"
Him: "It's not the Stag left hand AR?"
Me: "NO! It's not a Stag."
Him: "Well, it must be in the back and I can't get to it. The girls are already gone. I can get to it Saturday" (not sure what the "girls" have to do with the equation)
Me: "Okay, I'm unavailable till Tues"
Him: "Okay, talk to you then"
Was kinda pissed because I was already in that part of town anticipating picking it up. :mad:
Im really glad i stumbled upon this thread. Ive got tentative plans to buy a BCM upper and a stripped lower and do a small build myself.....until I saw this. I may need to save my money a little faster....
This setup doesnt have the rail setup id like that im looking at with some other upper configurations, but i can always look into that later anyway.
Okay, took a while, but I finally made it out to my FFL to pic up my new BCM middy:D
When I saw the box, I wasn't aware that I had to assemble the rifle. The CTR stock was already on the lower and all I had to do was install my DD omega 9.0 rail, slide in the BCG and assemble the upper and lower. No biggie. Anyway, rifle is top notch in fit and finish. No play between the upper and lower what-so-ever. I absolutely love the CTR stock and have no regrets. The DD rail is rock solid and comfortable with the ladder covers on it. I haven't had a chance to shoot it yet as my range is closed today, but will post a review soon if people would like. Here are a few pictures:
http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w270/KingAirDvr/AR/IMG_0585.jpg
http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w270/KingAirDvr/AR/IMG_0586.jpg
http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w270/KingAirDvr/AR/IMG_0587.jpg
http://http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w270/KingAirDvr/AR/IMG_0589.jpg
http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w270/KingAirDvr/AR/IMG_0589.jpg
http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w270/KingAirDvr/AR/IMG_0597.jpg
http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w270/KingAirDvr/AR/IMG_0592.jpg
http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w270/KingAirDvr/AR/IMG_0600.jpg
http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w270/KingAirDvr/AR/IMG_0603.jpg
I tried to take a pic of the M4 feed ramps but will have to figure out how to get more light in there.
Thanks Grant!
asolo, glad you like the gun. Generally items that are user installable, we do not put on. This gives you more options as you will get all the tools and instructions on how to do it if you so choose to move the item from one gun to another.
To get a pic of the feed ramps, seperate the upper and lower, take the upper outise and point it towards the sky. This should give you enough light to get a good pic.
C4
Grant,
Ah, no problem on the assembly thing. It was my first mail-order AR:) Thanks for the photo tip. By the way, the o-ring that comes with the BCG just slips over the extractor spring correct?
Grant,
Ah, no problem on the assembly thing. It was my first mail-order AR:) Thanks for the photo tip. By the way, the o-ring that comes with the BCG just slips over the extractor spring correct?
You have a middy. Do not install the O-Ring.
C4
Phew! Glad I asked:)
Thanks
Julius Carbinius
09-29-09, 12:32
Congrats on your new BCM, asolo. I have almost the same thing from Grant as well, except for some Magpul furniture in flat dark earth.
Enjoy! :)
spamsammich
09-29-09, 13:03
Might be the angle of your camera, but it looks like the Omega is slightly mis-aligned. What did you use to align it? I prefer to bridge with an ADM T-1 mount or a carry handle type rail riser.
im currently working on selling a couple things to improve my funds for this. The more i look at this, the more i want to pull the trigger on this even sooner. I hope my credit card doesnt take a hit soon....:)
and i thought i noticed the rail slightly mis-aligned as well....
Julius Carbinius
09-29-09, 15:08
Might be the angle of your camera, but it looks like the Omega is slightly mis-aligned. What did you use to align it? I prefer to bridge with an ADM T-1 mount or a carry handle type rail riser.
Looks like it's the camera's lens causing that "fisheye" effect. This would be a result of the lens being at its widest angle.
For future pics, it is best to set the camera back from the subject and then zoom in until the subject fills the frame. This results in a "flat" picture without the "fish eye" distortion effect. ;)
Well, the rail is very slightly off but not by much at all. I take it that this is because of the allen screw needs adjusting? The photog tips are greatly appreciated. I just got a new camera and have been experimenting with it a bit.
My initial plan was to buy one AR and do it right the first time. Now I'm thinking I may have more builds in the future. I can see how addicting this can be!
Great forum guys, Keep it up!
spamsammich
09-30-09, 01:00
The set screws have nothing to do with alignment of the rail, they only keep the rail from moving. Contrary to popular belief, they do not fit between the teeth of the barrel nut, they bite into the barrel nut and ONLY maintain alignment. They do not establish alignment.
Beat Trash
09-30-09, 08:14
OK, stupid question time.
While looking at the pictures posted by asolo's new rifle (nice gun & pictures, by the way) I noticed a couple of things.
Do all of the BCM carbines come with the bowed trigger guard (RRA calls a "winter trigger guard")? I guess I'm too much of a traditionalist, I prefer the looks of the standard one.
And does the bolts all have "BCM" etched on the sides of them?
Yes, I know,call me petty...
Lastly, Grant, do you do direct sales from your shop? I live in SW Ohio, but visit relatives in Mansfield. According to MapQuest, it'd be a hop, skip, and a dip into my wallet to swing by and get a BCM middy from you...
OK, stupid question time.
While looking at the pictures posted by asolo's new rifle (nice gun & pictures, by the way) I noticed a couple of things.
Do all of the BCM carbines come with the bowed trigger guard (RRA calls a "winter trigger guard")? I guess I'm too much of a traditionalist, I prefer the looks of the standard one.
And does the bolts all have "BCM" etched on the sides of them?
Yes, I know,call me petty...
ok, you're petty.
yes, and yes.
It's not an RRA winter trigger guard, it's a Magpul MOE.
The carriers are etched BCM because some people were passing off parts that weren't genuine.
OK, stupid question time.
While looking at the pictures posted by asolo's new rifle (nice gun & pictures, by the way) I noticed a couple of things.
Do all of the BCM carbines come with the bowed trigger guard (RRA calls a "winter trigger guard")? I guess I'm too much of a traditionalist, I prefer the looks of the standard one.
And does the bolts all have "BCM" etched on the sides of them?
Yes, I know,call me petty...
Lastly, Grant, do you do direct sales from your shop? I live in SW Ohio, but visit relatives in Mansfield. According to MapQuest, it'd be a hop, skip, and a dip into my wallet to swing by and get a BCM middy from you...
Yes, we have a full time store. Just drop us a line when you want to come out.
C4
thespyhunter
10-01-09, 06:56
Okay, took a while, but I finally made it out to my FFL to pic up my new BCM middy:D
When I saw the box, I wasn't aware that I had to assemble the rifle. The CTR stock was already on the lower and all I had to do was install my DD omega 9.0 rail, slide in the BCG and assemble the upper and lower. No biggie. Anyway, rifle is top notch in fit and finish. No play between the upper and lower what-so-ever. I absolutely love the CTR stock and have no regrets. The DD rail is rock solid and comfortable with the ladder covers on it. I haven't had a chance to shoot it yet as my range is closed today, but will post a review soon if people would like. Here are a few pictures:
I tried to take a pic of the M4 feed ramps but will have to figure out how to get more light in there.
Thanks Grant!
Very nice asolo
Sean Price
10-01-09, 20:44
man, Asolo's pic's are like candy to the kid... I cannot express how AWESOME they are,
THANK YOU!!
I finally found a local dealer in my area willing to help me out.. for $75 that is.. gave them G&R's fax number and they said they would fax out their FFL to G&R...
So whats the next step?
Obviously I would call G&R but doubt they are open at 9pm... I would hate to process my order online and find out there is a problem with my dealer and their FFL..
This is my first gun purchase online.. obviously I am a complete rookie to this, so any help and input appreciated!!
G&R's website says he ships UPS Ground.. being in wisconsin, would that get here in a few days or what timeframe can I expect.., anyone know?
Per Asolo's post, you have to assemble the gun.. I was not aware of this.. G&R says instructs are included, but hey, again complete rookie to all this! Is that something that someone who NEVER even fired an AR can easily(read: safely) do, i.e. the assembly?
When you go to place your order, you have options on GRIP, STOCK, and RAIL.. anyone care to chime in with any feedback and input on any of those, +'s and -'s of them?
SO CLOSE.... :D
thanks again!
can't wait to do this!! HOPEFULLY, get this done BY MANANA!!!!
AWESOME STUFF!~
oNe
p.s. PLEASE KEEP in my mind.. tho this is my "1st" AR, NOT only will this be my go-to gun, protection, and plinking, I plan to build this up as my "TRICKED" out piece... so with that in mind.. am I better off gettin the DD rail now, that way G&R installs it for me.. or is that a relatively simple process that I can do at a later time.. once I'm "ready" for it? END RESULT: ar-15 w/ Trijicon ACOG, and a flashlight/laser combo on the rail.. thats pretty much it..
I finally found a local dealer in my area willing to help me out.. for $75 that is.. gave them G&R's fax number and they said they would fax out their FFL to G&R...
So whats the next step?
Per Asolo's post, you have to assemble the gun.. I was not aware of this.. G&R says instructs are included, but hey, again complete rookie to all this! Is that something that someone who NEVER even fired an AR can easily(read: safely) do, i.e. the assembly?
$75 is pretty steep for a transfer. Check HERE (http://www.gunbroker.com/User/DealerNetwork.asp) for a dealer near you. I did mine for $15.
In the transfer, just provide your dealer with Grants info found HERE (http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?display=contact) and your dealer will in-turn fax his FFL to Grant. Once they hook up, you just need to provide your dealer with your info (phone number) so that they can call you when the gun comes in
As far as assembling the gun:Other than attaching the upper and lower together (20-30 secs) I ordered a DD omega rail and had to put it on myself. Grant will include the original manufacturer directions. My rail took 5-10 min to put on and was very straight-forward. Don't let the assembly scare you. It is very easy.
man, Asolo's pic's are like candy to the kid... I cannot express how AWESOME they are,
THANK YOU!!
I finally found a local dealer in my area willing to help me out.. for $75 that is.. gave them G&R's fax number and they said they would fax out their FFL to G&R...
That is CRAZY! $20 is the norm. Look around for a pawn shop with an FFL.
So whats the next step?
Order what you want and give the FFL our fax number and have them send their license.
G&R's website says he ships UPS Ground.. being in wisconsin, would that get here in a few days or what timeframe can I expect.., anyone know?
Usually 1-3 days (depending on how far behind we are.
Per Asolo's post, you have to assemble the gun.. I was not aware of this.. G&R says instructs are included, but hey, again complete rookie to all this! Is that something that someone who NEVER even fired an AR can easily(read: safely) do, i.e. the assembly?
Uppers and lowers are packaged separately. All you have to do is push the pins in.
When you go to place your order, you have options on GRIP, STOCK, and RAIL.. anyone care to chime in with any feedback and input on any of those, +'s and -'s of them?
Personally, I would go with the Magpul MOE Grip and stock. No need for a rail unless you think you are going to hang something off of it.
p.s. PLEASE KEEP in my mind.. tho this is my "1st" AR, NOT only will this be my go-to gun, protection, and plinking, I plan to build this up as my "TRICKED" out piece... so with that in mind.. am I better off gettin the DD rail now, that way G&R installs it for me.. or is that a relatively simple process that I can do at a later time.. once I'm "ready" for it? END RESULT: ar-15 w/ Trijicon ACOG, and a flashlight/laser combo on the rail.. thats pretty much it..
The DD Omega is one of my favorite rails and is easily installed by the user (so you can add it at a later date if you like).
C4
Sean Price
10-05-09, 19:42
c4,
thanks for your reply, I tried calling but got a msg to email instead. I tried sending the email but I don't think it was sent out.. phone problems on my end..
I know I'm running short on time here.. and this will probably not work but let me know whats up..
I have signed up for a carbine class, its actually taking place this sunday, 10/11/09 and so I would like to order the middy complete from you.. but question..
Will it get here in time? i.e. before Friday? So that I can take delivery of it by Saturday at the latest and still make it out to that carbine class this Sunday?
2nd question...since my local dealers want to charge $100+ for the FFL, I tried Asolo's suggestion...
http://www.gunbroker.com/User/DealerNetwork.asp
It brought up numerous dealers in my area. but they don't seem to be actual gun shops.. google has no info on them..
Are these guys legit? How do I know they won't just "keep" my gun, they seem to be operating out of their houses...How does that work?
Or do you have anyone I can work with in the 53186 zip code? What about this Paul guy in Hartland everyone keeps talking about?
and my last question...
If I do end up ordering those Magpul extras, stock, grip, rail..ect.
1. will you install those "upgrade" items...
2. will you send me the original items as well, or how does that work?
Thats the basic email I tried sending you from my phone.. otherwise I'm at the public library typing this post..
my email is phabeon@hotmail.com of how else can I reach you?
well hopefully we can make this work!
thanks in advance!!
oNe
p.s. oh yeah, packers v/s vikings is about to kick off!! GAME TIME!!
c4,
2nd question...since my local dealers want to charge $100+ for the FFL, I tried Asolo's suggestion...
http://www.gunbroker.com/User/DealerNetwork.asp
It brought up numerous dealers in my area. but they don't seem to be actual gun shops.. google has no info on them..
Are these guys legit? How do I know they won't just "keep" my gun, they seem to be operating out of their houses...How does that work?
Yes, they're perfectly legit. No, they won't just keep your gun. The FFL who did the transfer on my M&P9c operated out of his house as well; nothing wrong with that. I'll be using the same one when I buy *my* BCM middy.
For the record, my FFL was/is a Dr. who does transfers as a hobby and by appt only.
Call the FFL's according to the link I gave you and go with someone who is convenient and won't charge you an arm and a leg. Better do it early tomorrow ASAP to get your rifle.
Grant-
Who manufactures the middy handguards on the BCM middy carbine? Gracias.
c4,
thanks for your reply, I tried calling but got a msg to email instead. I tried sending the email but I don't think it was sent out.. phone problems on my end..
No e-mail was received.
I know I'm running short on time here.. and this will probably not work but let me know whats up..
I have signed up for a carbine class, its actually taking place this sunday, 10/11/09 and so I would like to order the middy complete from you.. but question..
Will it get here in time? i.e. before Friday? So that I can take delivery of it by Saturday at the latest and still make it out to that carbine class this Sunday?
No idea. The longer you take to order, the longer it takes to get to you.
2nd question...since my local dealers want to charge $100+ for the FFL, I tried Asolo's suggestion...
http://www.gunbroker.com/User/DealerNetwork.asp
It brought up numerous dealers in my area. but they don't seem to be actual gun shops.. google has no info on them..
Are these guys legit? How do I know they won't just "keep" my gun, they seem to be operating out of their houses...How does that work?
Have you opened the phone book and looked up Pawn shops in your local area? They tend to be MUCH cheaper on transfers.
FFL's do not need to be in an "shop." Many FFL's operate out of their home (which is just fine). No one is going to "keep your gun."
Or do you have anyone I can work with in the 53186 zip code? What about this Paul guy in Hartland everyone keeps talking about?
I do not know of any FFL's in your area and Paul does NOT do transfers.
and my last question...
If I do end up ordering those Magpul extras, stock, grip, rail..ect.
1. will you install those "upgrade" items...
2. will you send me the original items as well, or how does that work?
1. Generally yes, but not always.
2. Depends on what it is. If it is the A2 grip, no, you will not get it.
C4
No idea. The longer you take to order, the longer it takes to get to you.
Soooo tempting, but no comment.
Sean Price
10-06-09, 21:57
No idea. The longer you take to order, the longer it takes to get to you.
C4
d*m thats what I was afraid of... as stated above, needed it here by Friday at the latest...
the training course is in Marshfield, WI this Saturday..
some of you here may regard me as a joke..but I am serious about this ish...Its just Wisconsin makes it so difficult..
I mean the carbine training course location is 5 hours drive away from me.. starts at 9am on sunday.. so I would have to leave around 3am just to get there in time...but hey I'm down for that.. I have nothing to lose and ALOT to gain!
I Just really wanted to show these wisconsinite's whats up, and come thru with some REAL hardware because judging by the gun show's around here, everyone's going to be rocking RRA's and Bushmasters..
oh well..
just gives me some more time to save up some more $$$ to get this middy done right!
aka. magpul EVERYTHING!!! :D and a rail system, I call them RIS, but yall seem to go with RAS, same thing I think..
Grant I will be contacting you shortly to place my order!
BCM here I come!
oNe
p.s. again WI demonstrating difficulties.. I tried calling 4-5 of those FFL's on that gunbroker list.. only 3 allowed for leaving msg's.. and not a single one has called back.. granted I expected no answers during MNF, but tried all day tuesday and nada.. will try again Wednesday.. because, $20 FFL is a lot better then $75!!
oh yeah there are no pawn shops in WI, or at least not in the milwaukee area..
some of you here may regard me as a joke..but I am serious about this ish...Its just Wisconsin makes it so difficult..
First of all, what's "ish"?
Some people may regard you as a joke here, but its only because you've been talking about this since the end of August. Now you expect to get the gun in time for a class this weekend? What about ammo, etc.? Do you have any of that stuff ready to go?
I Just really wanted to show these wisconsinite's whats up, and come thru with some REAL hardware because judging by the gun show's around here, everyone's going to be rocking RRA's and Bushmasters..
Judging by every gun show in the country, here included, that's what you'd expect to see at classes, but you don't. People that actually take classes and run their guns hard generally have a better class of weapon. Not always true, but usually. And if you go to a class with the intention of "showing people what's up" and not to shut up and learn, you're not going to get much out of the class.
oNe Huh?
:confused:
thespyhunter
10-09-09, 02:45
........ what a show :o
I do believe this thread has run its course
Could we just give Sean Price his own sub-forum?
Could we just give Sean Price his own sub-forum?
Haha!
thespyhunter
10-09-09, 07:30
Haha!
I thought you would appreciate that ;)
...... oh, the drama
chicken.vindaloo
10-10-09, 09:04
........ what a show :o
I do believe this thread has run its course
Could we just give Sean Price his own sub-forum?
Hi Guys,
I just discovered (and joined) this site yesterday, and I'm really glad I did. This thread has been perfect for me as I'm in Sean's position exactly regarding zero experience with AR15s other than doing a lot of reading and lurking on other web sites. I only have one question...what brand of AR15 do you think I should get, and why? JUST KIDDING! (only about my question). I do share his amazement though about not ever having heard of BCM. I have heard of the other "good" brands you listed, however. It has also always surprised me that other than the occasional mention of a couple of features about a specific gun I have never seen a comparison of important features until seeing Rob's chart. That pretty much tells the tale. I am going to order a BCM this coming week. I do have one serious question though. I understand the advantages of the mid-length version (which I had not previoulsy been aware of). When I called one of my local FFL dealers to accept delivery of the BCM middy, he said that a disadvantage is availability of accessories for that length system. I assume he meant choice of rail systems. Is this of any importance? I would think that once a rail system is installed, any accessories could then be attached. Not that I plan on putting on all that much stuff. Is there any other downside vs. a standard carbine?
Thanks everyone. I'm glad I found this forum prior to a purchase.
Eric
Hi Guys,
I just discovered (and joined) this site yesterday, and I'm really glad I did. This thread has been perfect for me as I'm in Sean's position exactly regarding zero experience with AR15s other than doing a lot of reading and lurking on other web sites. I only have one question...what brand of AR15 do you think I should get, and why? JUST KIDDING! (only about my question). I do share his amazement though about not ever having heard of BCM. I have heard of the other "good" brands you listed, however. It has also always surprised me that other than the occasional mention of a couple of features about a specific gun I have never seen a comparison of important features until seeing Rob's chart. That pretty much tells the tale. I am going to order a BCM this coming week. I do have one serious question though. I understand the advantages of the mid-length version (which I had not previoulsy been aware of). When I called one of my local FFL dealers to accept delivery of the BCM middy, he said that a disadvantage is availability of accessories for that length system. I assume he meant choice of rail systems. Is this of any importance? I would think that once a rail system is installed, any accessories could then be attached. Not that I plan on putting on all that much stuff. Is there any other downside vs. a standard carbine?
Thanks everyone. I'm glad I found this forum prior to a purchase.
Eric
The FFL Dealer you talked to is incorrect. Every major manufacturer makes 9.0 (middy) length rails (DD, LT, Troy, VLTOR, MI, YHM, PRI, etc, etc).
As I have stated many times on this forum, some of the WORST advice I have ever seen comes from my fellow dealers. :rolleyes:
C4
Grant,
Does your BCM middy build come with Bravo's Lifetime Warranty as well? If so, I have no reason left to resist this Christmas present to myself! :D
Thanks,
NB
chicken.vindaloo
10-10-09, 10:52
The FFL Dealer you talked to is incorrect. Every major manufacturer makes 9.0 (middy) length rails (DD, LT, Troy, VLTOR, MI, YHM, PRI, etc, etc).
As I have stated many times on this forum, some of the WORST advice I have ever seen comes from my fellow dealers. :rolleyes:
C4
In that case I'll be talking to you as soon as I choose a local ship-to FFL.
Eric
Grant,
Does your BCM middy build come with Bravo's Lifetime Warranty as well? If so, I have no reason left to resist this Christmas present to myself! :D
Thanks,
NB
Yes.
C4
Sean Price
12-04-09, 14:41
Okay pop's. the gloves are coming off now!!!
and if you somehow get offended by any of this.. then you really just need to grow a set, aight player?
:confused:
some of you here may regard me as a joke..but I am serious about this ish...Its just Wisconsin makes it so difficult..
First of all, what's "ish"? come on pops get with the times..
Some people may regard you as a joke here, but its only because you've been talking about this since the end of August. Now you expect to get the gun in time for a class this weekend? What about ammo, etc.? Do you have any of that stuff ready to go?
WELL EXCUSE ME FOR TRYING TO RESEARCH A $1000+ purchase...
So by YOUR own admission(timeframe of when this was written) your lambasting me for ACTUALLY taking the time and effort to educate myself before I "throw" away $1000+ Does that make any sense? Sheesh with people like you running wild in the public, no wonder America's in the slump that its in...if people would have researched the house and LOAN they were getting on said house. maybe we wouldn't have had such a housing crash and economic disaster on our hands... sheesh... you guys actually berating a gentleman that is actually putting in work and trying to educate himself instead of just blindly throwing $1000+ away..
UNBELIEVABLE!
[COLOR="Red"]Judging by every gun show in the country, here included, that's what you'd expect to see at classes, but you don't. People that actually take classes and run their guns hard generally have a better class of weapon. Not always true, but usually. And if you go to a class with the intention of "showing people what's up" and not to shut up and learn, you're not going to get much out of the class. Either way, I wont' learn period if I don't get to the class now will ?
oNe Huh? get with it old man.. whatever IT is.. winnk!
Listen.. I was in a hurry to get this rifle as I was ONLY notified the NIGHT before that the class was even taking place.. I was told the class would occur sometime in the fall.. OBVIOUSLY the 5 day window of notice NOt only caught me by surprise but a couple of others as well.. heard the class was cancelled due to not enough participants being able to make it... what did they expect with less then a weeks worth notice.. but yeah the class location was aprox 5 hours drive for me.. and here I was MORE Then WILLING to make that drive (had I got my gun in time) just to have a chance of a proper education...
again i mean no real offense(hopefully you take my reply with a grain of salt), It is what it is.. the old shall always resent and harbor ill will towards the young..
wink!
peace and i'm out!
oNe
p.s. Yes, I am still on the verge of obtaining my BCM complete from Grant.. just a matter of that FFL transfer.. hopefully my local FFL guy FINALLY faxed Grant his license..
You come back 2 months later to throw some weak insults around? Plus you still haven't ordered anything? If I were Grant I wouldn't sell you anything.
yeah, I'd say you're on the verge alright...
NavyDavy55
12-05-09, 14:46
Wow what a great price.
It's practically the rifle I'm assembling but with a stripped Aero Precision lower.
With the mods I'd want on that gun it would still cost me $1521.
Mods include;
Grip: Magpul MOE (Black)
Stock: Magpul MOE Stock (Black)
Rail: Daniel Defense 9.0 Omega (black)
Charging Handle: BCM CH MOD 4
NavyDavy55
12-06-09, 06:42
No way. It is a time consuming PITA! I should charge about $40 bucks to run around my shop opening boxes, removing bubble wrap and pushing pins in to find a nice fit. :D
C4
I'll do it for $40/hour. :)
GO NAVY
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