View Full Version : Question about my new M&P15
Anyone else have problems with firing with a loose grip ?
In other words, if I let the gun move much at all when firing, it fails to even chamber the next round, and it just dry fires. As long as Im holding it in a normal shoulder fire postion it's fine, shoots great. But from the hip is where I have trouble (yes I now this has no merit), and bump fire is out of the question (again, I know pointless and a waste of ammo). But my old Bushy never had these troubles. Im guessing maybe my S&W (Stag), has tighter tolerances or something. I've only put 70 rounds through it so far, just wanting to know if this is something to be concerned about.
Another thing I noticed different between my M&P and my Bushy, is on the M&P the gas rings fit a lot tighter, making the bolt stiff to move back and forth.
Take it easy on me though, as Im still pretty new to AR's in general.
Edit: Also Im using 62gr Wolf ammo, if that makes a difference.
Clean it real good....Lube the crap out of it. https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=31
Hold it the correct way.
If it still will not run then return it. You should not pay good money for something that is brand new and you have to tinker with it to make it run.
AMMO: Wolf... I stopped using that stuff long time ago. I had a BM that would eat everything but that crap. Some folks have good luck with Wolf, I did not. Try some S&B, UMC, BlackHills or American Eagle.
Magazine??? What are you using for a mag? I'll guess that it came with a new one.
I have the mag it came with, and one US made Thermold. It's not jamming though. Its like the bolt carrier doesnt come back far enough if you let the gun give any. You can see the scratches on the top round in the mag, where the bolt goes over it.
Im just considering trading it for another Bushmaster.
Sounds like a mag problem.
some info:
http://www.dlsports.com/ar15_extreme_duty_magazines.html
Most modern magazine followers are so poorly designed they repeatedly fail to deliver top cartridges into the proper feeding position against the feed lips of the magazine. They allow "bolt over cartridge base" and "bullet nose diving" malfunctions to continue at a rate much higher than the old 20 round straight box magazines with aluminum followers.
http://www.policeone.com/writers/columnists/lom/articles/125511/
Regarding M-16, 20- and 30-round magazines, I recommend loading only 18 and 28 rounds maximum, respectively. Some say it doesn't matter, but I've seen numerous bolt-over-base failures with fully loaded M-16 mags. The bolt does not strip the round from the mag, but instead rides over the top, dents the cartridge case and causes an irregular shape. The round will not chamber and all attempts to force the round into the chamber using the forward assist simply create a greater problem. A bolt-over failure requires clearing the weapon and recharging with a fresh round.
Additionally, anyone who has attempted to seat a fully loaded magazine when the bolt or slide is forward and in battery knows it can prove difficult. Why? A fully loaded mag has maximum spring compression. As the magazine is locked into the magazine well, the top round presses against the bottom of the bolt or slide. If more pressure on the top round in the magazine will not further compress the magazine spring, the magazine catch will not engage and lock in place. The first sharp movement (or firing the weapon) can cause the magazine to fall from the weapon.
Get some new GI mags and see how it does.
http://www.actiongear.com/cgi-bin/tame.exe/agcatalog/results.tam?rlk=2487130
If that don't get it done then take it back.
Thanks for the help. I will try a new mag first. But is it really possible that my factory mag and my Thermold are bad ?
Although when used normally, it will fire just as fast as I can pull the trigger with no troubles. But as I said, if you let the gun start moving, or try something like bump fire, thats when it does it.
Your description of the problem makes it sound like it is short-stroking (the bolt is not going far enough to the rear to pick up the next round). That is normally an indication of an issue with ammunition. The intriguing part is that you say it only occurs when held loosely. Personally, I'd try a different brand of ammo first. Preferably something a bit hotter, like XM193, Q3131, or M855 (i.e a good quality 5.56 NATO load).
What about the White Box Winchesters ? Could the weight have anything to do with it ? These are 62's, and I always used 55's in my Bushmaster, so I cant compare them on that respect.
Ill swing by Wally World on my way home tomorrow and grab some 55's just to try.
What about the White Box Winchesters ?
It couldn't hurt to try.
Could the weight have anything to do with it ?
The powder charge is usually the issue, not bullet weight.
Here is some great info that was found here on M4:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=139
If you can find some Q3131A or XM193 that would be ideal.
The WWB from Wally World seems to be okay but not outstanding. I've never had any trouble with it but I only use it for plinking and range time.
A few follow up questions:
1. Is your M&P stock, like it came from the factory?
2. Is the mag that came with it a 30 rounder?
3. Did you clean it before hand and with what?
4. If you load a single round does the bolt lock open when you fire it?
If you can find some Q3131A or XM193 that would be ideal.
The WWB from Wally World seems to be okay but not outstanding. I've never had any trouble with it but I only use it for plinking and range time.
A few follow up questions:
1. Is your M&P stock, like it came from the factory?
2. Is the mag that came with it a 30 rounder?
3. Did you clean it before hand and with what?
4. If you load a single round does the bolt lock open when you fire it?
1. Is your M&P stock, like it came from the factory?
Yes, just picked it up Wed after the UPS dropped it off at my friend's shop.
2. Is the mag that came with it a 30 rounder?
Yup, and I had that 30rd Thermold leftover from my BM
3. Did you clean it before hand and with what?
Yea, Kleen Bore solvent and oil
4. If you load a single round does the bolt lock open when you fire it?
If fired from the shoulder, yes. Held loosely, no.
I've never shot one loosley (bump fire, hip, ect...) so I don't know if that would have an effect or not. The system should run even if the only thing touching it was your trigger finger. :confused:
I've never shot one loosley (bump fire, hip, ect...) so I don't know if that would have an effect or not. The system should run even if the only thing touching it was your trigger finger. :confused:
Thats what has me confused. My Bushmaster ran fine any way you wanted to hold it. So like I said, it's very tempting to just trade it back in. My dealer is a good friend of mine, so I got this S&W at a REALLY good price, thinking I was moving up in quality. Didn't really want to have to start tinkering with it, or start getting special ammo to get it to run at 100%. :mad:
Robb Jensen
02-04-07, 07:29
Wolf ammo is typically pretty weak. Try this........take several empty mags and load each mag with only 1 round at the range. Shoot the 1 round and see if the rifles locking the bolt back everytime when it runs empty. If it's not doing this everytime then it's either leaking gas is leaking somewhere (loose gas key on the carrier or a loose/leaking gas block) or your ammo is much too weak. It also maybe that it's just needs a little breaking in and more lubrication in the right spots.
Try a little more powerful ammo and see how it goes. Also run it very wet with oil per Pat Rogers article on lubrication an cleaning here (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=31).
I use Militec-1, Slip2000 Gun Lube, and the new 'Machine-Gunners/10-8 lube' whichever I happen to have handy in my range bag/rifle case.
Anyone else have problems with firing with a loose grip ?
In other words, if I let the gun move much at all when firing, it fails to even chamber the next round, and it just dry fires. As long as Im holding it in a normal shoulder fire postion it's fine, shoots great. But from the hip is where I have trouble (yes I now this has no merit), and bump fire is out of the question (again, I know pointless and a waste of ammo). But my old Bushy never had these troubles. Im guessing maybe my S&W (Stag), has tighter tolerances or something. I've only put 70 rounds through it so far, just wanting to know if this is something to be concerned about.
Another thing I noticed different between my M&P and my Bushy, is on the M&P the gas rings fit a lot tighter, making the bolt stiff to move back and forth.
Take it easy on me though, as Im still pretty new to AR's in general.
Edit: Also Im using 62gr Wolf ammo, if that makes a difference.
not trying to hijacj your thread but ; what is "bump fire"
Robb Jensen
02-04-07, 12:10
not trying to hijacj your thread but ; what is "bump fire"
Wikipedia is your friend ;) Bumpfire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bump_fire)
Ok, just tried that, several times. As long as Im holding the gun tightly. It will lock back everytime. If I hold it loosely, it wont lock it back.
Is it possible the buffer spring is too strong ?
Wolf ammo is typically pretty weak. Try this........take several empty mags and load each mag with only 1 round at the range. Shoot the 1 round and see if the rifles locking the bolt back everytime when it runs empty. If it's not doing this everytime then it's either leaking gas is leaking somewhere (loose gas key on the carrier or a loose/leaking gas block) or your ammo is much too weak. It also maybe that it's just needs a little breaking in and more lubrication in the right spots.
Try a little more powerful ammo and see how it goes. Also run it very wet with oil per Pat Rogers article on lubrication an cleaning here (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=31).
I use Militec-1, Slip2000 Gun Lube, and the new 'Machine-Gunners/10-8 lube' whichever I happen to have handy in my range bag/rifle case.
Robb Jensen
02-04-07, 15:39
Ok, just tried that, several times. As long as Im holding the gun tightly. It will lock back everytime. If I hold it loosely, it wont lock it back.
Is it possible the buffer spring is too strong ?
If it's locking back when empty (rifle shouldered properly) then nothing is wrong with the rifle. If you want to bump fire it, it'll probably take a little more break-in.
If it's locking back when empty (rifle shouldered properly) then nothing is wrong with the rifle. If you want to bump fire it, it'll probably take a little more break-in.
It was never about bump fire really. I just wanted to be sure there was nothing wrong with the rifle. Thanks for all the help guys. Ill just give it some more time, and feed it a lot of ammo.
not trying to hijacj your thread but ; what is "bump fire"
Bump fire is the coolest! I especially like to do it underwater. :D
C4
Bump fire is the coolest! I especially like to do it underwater. :D
C4
LMAO !
Grant, I may still send you my bolt carrier for you to stake it, and check everything out.
LMAO !
Grant, I may still send you my bolt carrier for you to stake it, and check everything out.
Sounds good.
C4
After doing some reading here http://www.ar15.com/lite/topic.html?b=3&f=66&t=266108&page=4 about gas tube alignment. I noticed that my gas tub is wearing on the bottom, and when you look at the tube on the carrier, you can see it is hitting it low. With all the parts out of the bolt. I can slide it towards the gas tube, and you can feel the resistance.
So Im going to try to tweak the tube like is mentioned there.
Robb Jensen
02-05-07, 06:09
I take my time torquing barrels to upper receivers and then use a gas tube alignment tool to get the gas tube/barrel nut alignment perfect. If the barrel nut isn't perfect it can cause the gas tube to bend slightly and engage the carrier key at slight angles wearing the gas tube a little quicker and leak gas, blowing it out of the carrier key and not into the carrier (because the gas tube isn't sealing inside the the key as it should).
You can bend the tube to fix it a little but it's a bandaid fix instead of curing the problem. This is also why I'm anal and replace gas tubes when replacing carrier keys.
One of the tests to see if you gas key is straight is to remove your upper assy from the lower. Keep the CH and bolt assy in the upper, hold the upper assy so that it's pointing toward the floor at a 45 degree angle (muzzle down) and pull the carrier about 1/3 to 1/2 the way out (with the CH locked forward) and then release the bolt carrier assy, it should slide forward and close without binding. If it's too dry it may not, if it's too dry lube it and try again.
One of the tests to see if you gas key is straight is to remove your upper assy from the lower. Keep the CH and bolt assy in the upper, hold the upper assy so that it's pointing toward the floor at a 45 degree angle (muzzle down) and pull the carrier about 1/3 to 1/2 the way out (with the CH locked forward) and then release the bolt carrier assy, it should slide forward and close without binding. If it's too dry it may not, if it's too dry lube it and try again.
If you mean just slide up against the chamber, then it will now that I tweaked it some. But if you mean close completely, there is no way. It takes way too much force to push the bolt from its forward position, to the locked position. It's really, really, stiff.
Robb Jensen
02-05-07, 12:08
If you mean just slide up against the chamber, then it will now that I tweaked it some. But if you mean close completely, there is no way. It takes way too much force to push the bolt from its forward position, to the locked position. It's really, really, stiff.
If you want for the cost of the return shipping I'd get it right for you.
Your description of the problem makes it sound like it is short-stroking (the bolt is not going far enough to the rear to pick up the next round). That is normally an indication of an issue with ammunition. The intriguing part is that you say it only occurs when held loosely. Personally, I'd try a different brand of ammo first. Preferably something a bit hotter, like XM193, Q3131, or M855 (i.e a good quality 5.56 NATO load).
I got 100 rounds of Federal XM193 from a friend. I'm going to try those before work. I took it back by the gun shop yesterday and compared it to a Bushmaster. The pins on the bushy were a lot harder to get out, but besides that, the buffer spring seemed to be much softer than the one in my gun.
Edit: Went out and tried the XM193. Gun shoots a lot better with it. Even just holding it by the carry handle, it will chamber the next round just fine. So I loaded up 20 more, and tried bump fire. It emptied all 20 FAST, and locked the bolt carrier back when empty.
Thanks for everything.
Now for a little gun porn of the subject in question:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/Tang419/MandPandglock.jpg
Went out and tried the XM193. Gun shoots a lot better with it. Even just holding it by the carry handle, it will chamber the next round just fine. So I loaded up 20 more, and tried bump fire. It emptied all 20 FAST, and locked the bolt carrier back when empty.
Sounds good!
Now that you've demonstrated that it works, you'll never have to bump fire again!
Sounds good!
Now that you've demonstrated that it works, you'll never have to bump fire again!
It was a shame to waste all that nice ammo :(
Bump firing is how my 2nd child was concieved :D
Robb Jensen
02-08-07, 07:36
Bump firing is how my 2nd child was concieved :D
I thought that was bumpin' uglies? :p
Bump firing is how my 2nd child was concieved :D
Your wife's lower reciever must be of high quality....lol
Glockster35
02-08-07, 10:07
AmmoTech,
Those magazines I sold you way back when, were they any good for you?
I am loving life right now, I have more magazines than I know what to do with, so if you need a few more, let me know!
I leave in 2 weeks, so it will probably have to wait a few months!
Tang419 , can you do me a favor and take apart your bolt and look at your extractor? Does it have a black insert and a Crane O-Ring installed?
I have been hearing reports that M&P's are coming this way now.
C4
Nope, blue insert, no O-Ring.
I sent you an email about those parts.
Nope, blue insert, no O-Ring.
I sent you an email about those parts.
Interesting. How old is your M&P?
C4
Not sure of exact date. I picked it up last week, as soon as it came off the UPS truck.
Know of anyway to tell by serial numbers ?
AmmoTech,
Those magazines I sold you way back when, were they any good for you?
I've only been able to test 3 of them but they ran fine. I got a batch of new mags from BQ when I got back and I've been using them. Next range trip I'll use some more of the ones you got me.
Good mags/Good price:
http://www.actiongear.com/cgi-bin/tame.exe/agcatalog/results.tam?rlk=3005319
The initial problem that is stated in this topic seems to be happening to me except im shooting normally. At first I was having trouble getting a round to chamber and when I did subsequent rounds would not chamber. I tried several mags including the stock mag and another brand of ammo incase for somereason the ammo cases were out of spec. I also had a light primer scratch on one of the few rounds I shot, I call it a scratch as it was barely there. I shot the same round out of my buddies AR without a problem
Any ideas?
Thanks
After just following these guys advice. Keeping it oiled, and shooting it. Mine is running like a fine tuned machine now. It especially loves the XM193 ammo.
Check the alignment of your gas tube.
Hello its not the gas tube, im having trouble chambering a round from the get go and when one does chamber she wont get the next sucker in there. This is driving me nuts as its hard to shoot it to break it in, if I cant get a round in the chamber?
Thanks
It sounds like it is short stroking. What kind of ammo are you using?
Make sure the Bolt is covered in oil and the carrier and CH has a lightly coated.
Load up a mag with one round, chamber it and fire. Did the bolt lock back?
C4
Hello, I used Federal and Remington. What im wondering is why im having trouble with the first round chambering? Im not riding the charging handle. I have the bolt and everything else that needs it well lubed. I wont be able to get back to the range until this weekend. Im thinking I should send it back to Smith? Any suggestions on the round not chambering initially?
Thanks
Hello, I spoke to Grant in depth today and purchased a few products this man is a wealth of info. I took the AR back out and shot 6 rounds out of the 1st mag they all chambered and fired fine, but the bolt did not lock back after the last shot? On the 2nd mag the first round chambered and fired fine, the 2nd round jammed and I had to drop the mag to get it out.
Anyone have any idea of a fix before I send her back to Smith?
Thanks
Hello, I spoke to Grant in depth today and purchased a few products this man is a wealth of info. I took the AR back out and shot 6 rounds out of the 1st mag they all chambered and fired fine, but the bolt did not lock back after the last shot? On the 2nd mag the first round chambered and fired fine, the 2nd round jammed and I had to drop the mag to get it out.
Anyone have any idea of a fix before I send her back to Smith?
Thanks
Thanks for the compliment. Did you do the couple of tests I talked to you about?
C4
Hi Grant I did the tests and it passed them. I called Smith and they are sending me a call tag. You would think a gun that lists for 1700 bucks would run 100% out of the box? I know better next time.
Thanks
I bought my first AR back in July of 2006 it was a M&P 15 from S&W.
First thing I did was take it home and clean the crap out of it. Second thing I did was lube it up like I would a woman. Next thing I did was take it to the range and fire 200 rounds , tear down clean and lube fire 200 more rounds. Take it home and clean it and in the safe until the next time I took it to the range. I now have about 1500 rounds through it with not one single problem. 500 rounds of Wolf
I firmly believe after many conversations with some BLACK RIFLE experts that these guns love lube. They just run better wet than dry.
I am not and expert on AR's but I suggest that anyone who is having problems properly clean the hell out of the rifle in question (if you are not sure of the proper cleaning methods do a search for cleaning and then follow it to the letter) and lube it like crazy. IMHO
smith m4
Hello she is Super Duper Lubed, I carried the M-16 for way tooooo long. This is my 18th year serving I spent 5 long years in a Ranger batallion, I had a nice vacation in Afghanistan, while being a free trip I really dont wanna go back awfull bad. So I cleaned these suckers once or twice a day for quite awhile. Now im no expert like Grant and others on here who know how to install the Flux Capacitor on the Doug Flutie barrel but clean one reasonably well. But I do learn new things everyday like from the article written by Pat Rogers. Before coming to this website I had no idea what a Staked BCG was. Through my military tenure(2 years left to retire) I have been lucky enough to have pretty decent unit armorers that took care of everything and I have more rank than I deserve so I get my pick of the weapons. Now that im stationed back home im procuring my own equipment which has pros and cons. Pros I get an allowance and get to keep the stuff since its in my name. Cons its mine and I have to take care of it. Well enough jabbering this is what happens when I cant sleep.
Thanks
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