View Full Version : Welcome to Florida and the ACLU
bongogator
08-15-09, 07:51
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/aug/14/criminal-prayer-case-stirs-protests/?feat=home_headlines
This really got my goat. They offered these kids a time to pray and are now going to court. You want to know whats wrong with this country, it's the ACLU! I'm not a religious person but this is just plain crazy.
What's so difficult about keeping prayer out of public school? School usually only runs about 7 hours a day. They have the other 17 hours, weekends, holidays, and all summer to pray as much as they want.
Why is it so hard to keep your religion to yourself for a few hours a day? I like my guns but I don't talk about them at work (when I had a job, currently laid off) to people who I don't know won't freak out about it.
This has already been decided in lots of courts a long time ago - no religion in public school. Doing otherwise will get you in trouble.
Allowing someone to pray is not the same as forcing others to conform to a particular set of beliefs. Forbidding the students from praying is not the answer, or correct either.
You give me an hour for prayer time, and I'm gonna take a nap. I don't really care what you do during that time, as long as you leave me the hell alone. :D
montanadave
08-15-09, 13:13
I'm so sick of these twice-born whack jobs bitching about how oppressed they are by all the secular demons ruining our country I could puke. If you want to publicly profess your faith, do it in church or in private, not in public schools. It might help if some of these holier-than-thou types read their own book.
"And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward.
But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to the Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly." Matthew 6:5-6
Freedom of religion necessarily implies freedom from religion.
Private personal prayer in a public place is not preaching or publicly professing of faith.
These are not the same thing.
Allowing students to take a few personal moments is not religious instruction.
They did not say "You will now pray to (pick one) Jehova/Allah/Jesus/FSM, because that is the one true God and all others are impostors ." They did not force students to pray.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...
Does that particular part of the Constitution no longer have meaning because you don't agree with it?
kaiservontexas
08-15-09, 13:56
Much a do about nothing other then the ACLU is probably bored and wanting headlines to generate revenue from its supporters.
Private personal prayer in a public place is not preaching or publicly professing of faith.
These are not the same thing.
Allowing students to take a few personal moments is not religious instruction.
Did you read the story?
"Allowing" and leading arent the same thing.
It doesnt sound to me like there was a problem with students finding private time to pray.They were being lead,organized,and encouraged to take part in these things.
The only thing that bothered me in the story(aside from some actions of the school staff)...
Mr. Staver said the district also agreed to forbid senior class President Mary Allen from speaking at the school's May 30 graduation ceremony on the chance that the young woman, a known Christian, might say something religious.
"She was the first student body president in 33 years not allowed to speak," he said.
:mad:
That sounds harsh, but here's what happened in the school district where I live:
The senior president was specifically instructed NOT to make any religious remarks during the graduation speech. So the president conspired with other students to get around it by intentionally sneezing during the speech and then having the rest of them shout out "god bless you".
This was stupid and childish. And the fact that some parents I spoke to were in favor of it makes it that much worse. So much for teaching your children to follow the rules/law and to respect religious freedom.
So I can see the reluctance in letting someone speak if you have a pretty good idea that they are not going to follow the law and get the school into more trouble. I don't think they simply suspected, I think they asked her to make a commitment or sign an agreement saying she wouldn't, and she refused.
It's pretty simple - no religion in public school. End of story. If you want otherwise, do it outside of school, or send your kid to a religious private school.
The staff has no business even touching on religion.
A student should be allowed to say whatever they wish during their speech(well,"fire!" may be out).They're not in a position of authority or being paid by tax dollars.
randyman_ar
08-15-09, 15:30
... If you want to publicly profess your faith, do it in church or in private....
.
How does one publicly profess something in private?:confused:
Freedom of religion necessarily implies freedom from religion.
Um, no.
Did you read the story?
Yes, I did.
...began last August when the ACLU sued Santa Rosa County Schools on behalf of two students who had complained privately to the group's Florida affiliate, claiming some teachers and administrators were allowing prayers at school events...
Based on my non-lawyer reading of the plain text of the First Amendment, this seems to be clearly supported by the plain text regardless of what today's courts seem to say.
The current event they are all bent out of shape over did not even involve students. Lame at best, malicious at worst.
I speak from experience when I say .....as long as there are tests in school, there will be prayer in school.
That sounds harsh, but here's what happened in the school district where I live:
The senior president was specifically instructed NOT to make any religious remarks during the graduation speech. So the president conspired with other students to get around it by intentionally sneezing during the speech and then having the rest of them shout out "god bless you".
This was stupid and childish. And the fact that some parents I spoke to were in favor of it makes it that much worse. So much for teaching your children to follow the rules/law and to respect religious freedom.
So I can see the reluctance in letting someone speak if you have a pretty good idea that they are not going to follow the law and get the school into more trouble. I don't think they simply suspected, I think they asked her to make a commitment or sign an agreement saying she wouldn't, and she refused.
It's pretty simple - no religion in public school. End of story. If you want otherwise, do it outside of school, or send your kid to a religious private school.
Did they with hold their diplomas and make them come into the office one at a time and get them? We were told if we did anything out of line we would have to jump thru hoops.
Of course they were more worried about someone's bare ass hanging out than someone saying GOD.
I speak from experience when I say .....as long as there are tests in school, there will be prayer in school.
there are no athiests in the trenches.
-------------
freedom of religion means freedom from the religion of no religion. how is promoting an athiestic environment any different than promoting a thiestic one? prohibiting people from prayer is no different than forcing prayer upon people.
the First was intended to protect religion- not inhibit it.
Yes, I did.
Are you sure?
The current event they are all bent out of shape over did not even involve students. Lame at best, malicious at worst.
There seems to be some debate on that...
Mr. Mach said the event was during the school day and that Mr. Lay, the school's principal, has said in writing that students were present.
how is promoting an athiestic environment any different than promoting a thiestic one?
How is it "promoting an atheistic enviroment" to not actively promote a theistic one?
If you have a conversation where God/religion isnt discussed is that "promoting atheistic dialog"?
prohibiting people from prayer is no different than forcing prayer upon people.
I fail to see where anyone was "prohibited" from prayer.The problem is public employees endorsing a religion and pushing it on other peoples kids.That's not what i send my kids to school for.
My son is in Sunday school almost every week BTW.I'm not opposed to religious exposure.
I know plenty of devote Christians who would not be happy with the actions of these educators.
I think this quote says it all...
"Decisions about the religious upbringing of children should be left in the hands of parents, not school officials," he said. As to whether prayer constitutes "religious upbringing," he said, "If school officials were promoting non-majority faiths and religious viewpoints, I suspect there'd be an uproar."
Government should be agnostic(not to be confused with atheistic).I'm sure this will become clear if you ever end up in the religious minority.
i'm not seeing anyone forced to pray, asked to pray, or even encouraged to pray. all i see in this thread is people prohibited from doing so.
i'm not seeing anyone forced to pray, asked to pray, or even encouraged to pray.
Just being paid tax dollars to lead kids in prayer?
Endorsement isnt encouragement?A young person watching virtually everyone arround them(including the authority figures) wont feel peer pressure?
I assume if a muslim teacher was leading students(your kids class) in a prayer from the Qu'ran(?) every day before math...it would be fine with you?
What about a prayer with overtones from a Christian denomination which differs from your own views?
Those last two were rhetorical.
I'm done with this one...my .02 is in the pot.:)
montanadave
08-15-09, 22:02
How does one publicly profess something in private?:confused:
Touche!
CryingWolf
08-15-09, 22:39
i'm not seeing anyone forced to pray, asked to pray, or even encouraged to pray. all i see in this thread is people prohibited from doing so.
Amen,
I do not see where they did anything wrong.
CarlosDJackal
08-15-09, 22:56
What's so difficult about keeping prayer out of public school? School usually only runs about 7 hours a day. They have the other 17 hours, weekends, holidays, and all summer to pray as much as they want.
Why is it so hard to keep your religion to yourself for a few hours a day? I like my guns but I don't talk about them at work (when I had a job, currently laid off) to people who I don't know won't freak out about it.
This has already been decided in lots of courts a long time ago - no religion in public school. Doing otherwise will get you in trouble.
This has got to be one of the most ignorant and short-sighted posts I have ever seen in this forum. I'll pray whenever and where ever I want. It is just as protected as free speech.
The only issue would be if I prayed, read the Bible, talked about guns/car/motorcycles/football, or what-have-you in the middle of a meeting or forced everyone to pray with me. Otherwise, me saying a prayer is my own business and none of yours.
IMHO, anti-religion persons are not very different from anti-gun individuals. Just because you have no use for it, it doesn't mean you are in the right to force others to give it up. Offering students the option of a mealtime prayer is not as oppressive as it sounds. In the military, Chaplains do just it all the time. Those who do not wish to participate can step out of formation or just take a "mental snooze".
If it's good enough for our troops, how come it's not good enough for everyone else? JM2CW.
There seems to be some debate on that...
<snip>
There are 2 events post-settlement they are talking about. One with students, and one without. Did you read it?
Ignorant and short-sighted? Try responding to my argument rather than making ad hominem attacks.
I suggest reading the damn article and see what they were doing:
For example, the Pace High School teachers handbook asks teachers to 'embrace every opportunity to inculcate, by precept and example, the practice of every Christian virtue.'
Sounds like the school was advocating a specific religion, doesn't it?
Mr. Lay, a deacon at a local Baptist church, asked Mr. Freeman to offer mealtime prayers at a lunch for school employees and booster-club members who had helped with a school field-house project.
Sounds like someone was leading a prayer in the middle of a lunch meeting, doesn't it?
If people want to pray on their own, fine. I never said anyone should stop them. My reference to "prayer" in my earlier post meant organized sanctioned prayer led by school officials, as occurred in this case. No one is being prosecuted for praying on his or her own - that wasn't even part of the discussion.
The issues at hand are a school official leading a prayer at an official function, and a handbook that advocated the teachings of a specific religion, both of which are clear violations of legions of 1st amendment case law with regard to public schools.
If the teachers or administrators at said school are too ignorant or short-sighted to heed clear 1st amendment guidelines, god help them.
And please don't equate the military with public schools. Take about apples and oranges. Soldiers give up their rights when they enlist. What's good for them, is NOT good enough for everyone else who has not agreed to give up their rights. Even if a soldier objects to the promotion of religion around him, he is hardly in a position to do much about it by suing his command on 1st amendment grounds.
Ignorant and short-sighted? Try responding to my argument rather than making ad hominem attacks.
I suggest reading the damn article and see what they were doing:
Sounds like the school was advocating a specific religion, doesn't it?
Sounds like someone was leading a prayer in the middle of a lunch meeting, doesn't it?
If people want to pray on their own, fine. I never said anyone should stop them. My reference to "prayer" in my earlier post meant organized sanctioned prayer led by school officials, as occurred in this case. No one is being prosecuted for praying on his or her own - that wasn't even part of the discussion.
The issues at hand are a school official leading a prayer at an official function, and a handbook that advocated the teachings of a specific religion, both of which are clear violations of legions of 1st amendment case law with regard to public schools.
If the teachers or administrators at said school are too ignorant or short-sighted to heed clear 1st amendment guidelines, god help them.
i'm glad you specified first amendment case law, because case-law is not consitutional. you might accept every verdict handed down by the ****s sitting on the SCOTUS, but i strongly suggest people take their politically motivated opinions with a truckload of salt.
again- the first amendment protects religion, and the only way it protects you from religion is by prohibiting the federal government from instating a national religion. teachers leading faculty in prayer doesn't equate to the government institution of mandatory religion.
In a case where school employees are forcing a religion I personally dont think it should be done. But Keeping kids from praying to God during a speech is pushin it. The fact that if a muslim taught there and kids complained about them forcing their religion on people the ACLU would run to the musims defence is what gripes my craw. Students can and should practice their religion daily and all day. Im in no way condoning standing out in the halls or lunch room and making sure everyone heres me pray. Thats like the polar opposite of prayer. But if I want to pray in a speech who are you to tell me I cant? If im giving a speech am i not conveying my ideals? As long as im not pushing a religion onto anyone whats the deal? If I teach a subject and dont inpede on my planned lesson where does it say I cant talk about my religion?
Whether your a believer or not, this country was founded on the basis of religious freedom and the freedom to do so how you wish. And quite frankly it aint so anymore unfortunately. Hell, saying the pledge isnt to common anymore either. I've moved around a little from school to school and alot of them you can get into big time trouble for trying to read your bible in study hall/lunch etc. And its a shame. I pray for my food every day, and ill read my bible whenever I feel the need to as long as it doesn't impede learning time. I just moved to a new school in south indiana and my previous one didnt even allow the pledge in the morning.:mad: People here looked at me crazy when I said its nice to be in a school that says the pledge and allows a prayer........ I think the real issue is the ACLU playing favorites with race religion and criminals. We should all have the right to practice/or choose not to practice religion anywhere anytime and if someone elses religion offends you then tough stuff. (except a religion that explicitly states to kill others) The thing is the ACLU has virtually made a career out of silencing Christians in general. Ask your atheist self why they'd do that. Look at how many cases they defend other religions yet pummel Christianity into the ground, FREEDOM?! Plus if you think about it, the kids don't choose to be at school any way, so why should they be brought to a place without choice and be told to turn their religion off? If religious freedom bothers anyone out there, grow up and move to russia or NK with kimy jung ill. Im sure he'll greet you with openly censored arms.
pretty much my thoughts also :)
In a case where school employees are forcing a religion I personally dont think it should be done. But Keeping kids from praying to God during a speech is pushin it. The fact that if a muslim taught there and kids complained about them forcing their religion on people the ACLU would run to the musims defence is what gripes my craw. Students can and should practice their religion daily and all day. Im in no way condoning standing out in the halls or lunch room and making sure everyone heres me pray. Thats like the polar opposite of prayer. But if I want to pray in a speech who are you to tell me I cant? If im giving a speech am i not conveying my ideals? As long as im not pushing a religion onto anyone whats the deal? If I teach a subject and dont inpede on my planned lesson where does it say I cant talk about my religion?
Whether your a believer or not, this country was founded on the basis of religious freedom and the freedom to do so how you wish. And quite frankly it aint so anymore unfortunately. Hell, saying the pledge isnt to common anymore either. I've moved around a little from school to school and alot of them you can get into big time trouble for trying to read your bible in study hall/lunch etc. And its a shame. I pray for my food every day, and ill read my bible whenever I feel the need to as long as it doesn't impede learning time. I just moved to a new school in south indiana and my previous one didnt even allow the pledge in the morning.:mad: People here looked at me crazy when I said its nice to be in a school that says the pledge and allows a prayer........ I think the real issue is the ACLU playing favorites with race religion and criminals. We should all have the right to practice/or choose not to practice religion anywhere anytime and if someone elses religion offends you then tough stuff. (except a religion that explicitly states to kill others) The thing is the ACLU has virtually made a career out of silencing Christians in general. Ask your atheist self why they'd do that. Look at how many cases they defend other religions yet pummel Christianity into the ground, FREEDOM?! Plus if you think about it, the kids don't choose to be at school any way, so why should they be brought to a place without choice and be told to turn their religion off? If religious freedom bothers anyone out there, grow up and move to russia or NK with kimy jung ill. Im sure he'll greet you with openly censored arms.
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