View Full Version : Gonna dive into precision rifle...
Mr.Goodtimes
08-15-09, 10:16
I've wanted a precision tactical rifle since I was in high school. I ended up buying an AR first but, im throwing around the idea of saving up some extra money for one, and maybe pickin on up in a year ish. I want to start planning things out, though. I'm goin for gold on this as, i know its something im going to dive into and really enjoy, so id rather just do it right the first time and have exactly what i want then start with something cheaper and spend a bunch of money and time making it right. I made that mistake with my AR...
The main purpose of this rifle is to be a long range sniping tool... deer, hogs, taking classes, punching paper, picking off people targets from exceptionally long ranges if shtf.
I'm going to have GAP build me the rifle, Ill start with their base rifle, and will upgrade the stock to an A5.
I'm going to be picking up some reloading equipment in the near future. so that being said, whats a good cartridge to go with? The ones i got in mind are..
6.5x47 Lapua
.260 Remington
.308 Winchester
If you guys got any ideas of something that may be a better choice, have at me. Since ill be reloading, im not really concerned with the availability and selection of factory ammo, I just want the best cartridge for the job.
From my understanding, it seems like 6.5x47 Lapua is the best option... what about 6.5 grendel?
I'm thinking nightforce or US optics for glass.
I'll also be picking up a surefire suppressor and muzzle break... for the 6.5 lapua, would i have to go with a 6.8 suppressor or a 7.62 suppressor?
Thanks in advance, cant wait to hear some input!
TacticalIntervention
08-15-09, 12:41
If you are going to load your own, and use for competition purposes the 6.5x47 is way I would go.
If you ever plan on defending yourself with this the 308 is the only answer here.
Its not a sniper rifle if you cant buy sniper quality ammo from most sportng good stores.
My advice is get what you want the first time. GA Precision has an outstanding reputation. If you want the A5 get a Crusader and be done, you will have a frickin laser. It has all the cool things already done to it. One piece bolt, side bolt release, badger everything.
Take a class and have a great time.
Mr.Goodtimes
08-15-09, 22:43
looks like .308 is the way to go... will the 6.5 be a better performer, though, at longer range?
what kind of range could i expect out of a 6.5x47 Lapua and out of a .308?
Thomas M-4
08-15-09, 23:13
looks like .308 is the way to go... will the 6.5 be a better performer, though, at longer range?
what kind of range could i expect out of a 6.5x47 Lapua and out of a .308?
The 6.5x47 will retain its energy for a longer distance than the .308
I use this Ballistic Calc to compare different cartridges
http://www.jbmballistics.com/~jbm/cgi-bin/jbmtraj-5.0.cgi
.308 is usually considered a 800 meter performer
the 6.5x47 Would do fine 1000+ meters
6.5X47 Brass is only made by Lapua so getting a ready supply of brass might prove to be aggravating.
And expensive http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=1270680004
wilsoncombatrep
08-18-09, 21:13
I've got a TRG in .308, and a SAKO Varmint in .260. The .308 is easier to get components for, but the .260 is a much better performer. To tell the truth, reloading components are not a big deal to get for the .260......I wish my TRG was chambered for it!
I much prefer the .260 for long range hunting.
MarshallDodge
08-18-09, 21:20
Like wilsoncombatrep said, reloading components are easier to get for the 308 but you can make 260 brass from 308 brass.
I have a LR-308 but am looking at building a 260 upper for it in the future because of the longer range.
For bolt action, I prefer Remington but there are a lot of good choices on the market.
wilsoncombatrep
08-18-09, 21:24
Brass for the .260......you have Remington, Nosler, and Norma. I've had fair luck with Remington, and GREAT luck with Nosler. Pricey, but well worth it.
My advice is get what you want the first time. GA Precision has an outstanding reputation. If you want the A5 get a Crusader and be done, you will have a frickin laser. It has all the cool things already done to it. One piece bolt, side bolt release, badger everything.
Im glad Im not the only one in this boat. I think I want something along the lines of maybe the GA Precision "Rock"? The "Crusader" looks epic, but Im worried that might be like jumping into water thats too deep and not being a good enough swimmer. I saw they have an AR on the GAP site. Does anyone know how any of these perform? Getting an AR sounds fun, but I think I want something more precise. I don't think I want something to run around with; just something to set up and shoot. This would be the first rifle I would actually own myself and when I finally go for it, I want it to be the perfect one for me. Im still very much in the infancy stage of researching these so any advice would be welcome.
Oh yeah, and I live in California (for now) so that puts some interesting limits on this whole venture. Im moving as soon as I find a more "pro-America" state that I like.
I would look at the Hornady 6.5 Creedmoor Match. I am running one built on a Surgeon SA and Bartlein barrel. Most of us all started on the .308win but I have to say its days are numbered as far as getting into the winners circle.
Ballistically the Hornady 6.5CM is close enough to the 260Rem and 6.5x47 that to me it's not worth arguing over. It is however, way better than the .308Win...way better.
This is the best part...it's the cheepest to shoot as well. As of last check...Midway was selling...
Hornady 6.5CM for $24 a box
CorBon 260Rem for $31 a box
Federal GMM .308win $37 a box
6.5x47 Lapua for $57 a box
To me it's a no brainer...you can reload for all of these cartridges...some I would even say you have to.
Call GAP...they have the 6.5CM reamer. I went down to Texas for a rifle match and used the data off the Hornady box to make my data cards and it was dead on...I would have been happy with close...but it literally was dead on.
$1200 for 1000 rounds of loaded match ammo in Hornady 6.5CM
$1550 for 1000 rounds of Corbon 260
$1850 for 1000 rounds of Federal GMM .308....(this is insane)
$2850 for 1000 rounds of 6.5x47 Lapua
you could get 460 more rounds of Hornady verse Federal for the $1850...thats no small difference especially since the 308 cant come close to the 6.5CM
Pick what you will...any of the 6.5 cals mentioned are proven to be accurate...your logistics and finances can help you decide. Just please...please...don't build a long range rifle chambered in .308win...
Be safe, shoot well
KJ
03humpalot
09-02-09, 05:06
thatgirl....check out Montana.
I own and run both GAP Rock and one of their AR10's. As gas guns go its a good one but i would get a bolt gun if you are looking for good/repeatable accuracy.
TacticalIntervention
09-02-09, 09:33
Thatgirl, I would start with a Boltgun. The AR10 would have to have a "Bullet Button" in California and thats a pia.
As to Boltgun, I would start with a standard Remington PSS, put Badger Rings and bases on it. Top it with a Night Force NXS 3-15x50 or 5.5-22x56 with MLR Reticle. Now once you get good at shooting you can have a Match bbl installed and get a Bedded McMillan stock. GAP can do that or many others. Someone not known much outside Military circles who knows more about this than anyone I have seen in industry is AJ Brown from Indiana. My favorite rifle is one he built and his cost is far less than anyone else.
Next is get some training. If your not too far away I run one and two day Precision rifle classes to teach fundementals, in San Jose and I will be teaching some long range classes, in spring, as well. I think there are others in So Cal that teach Precision rifle as well but dont have the names handy.
If your willing to travel Badlands is a great place. Its in OK.
averageshooter
09-02-09, 13:04
I will have to agree with Tactical. A great rifle to start with is Rem 700 5R. They make them in a limited run each year. But the things can flat shoot. They come in a decent stock as well. Put a good quality scope on it with good bases/rings and wear out the barrel in shooting classes and quality practice. Then you can have anyone of the builders do upgrades to it that you may want. Whether it is trueing the action/bolt face, new barrel, trigger etc. A lot of that stuff you can get done relatively inexpensive. Spend 1k on the rifle, 1k-1500 on the scope, bases/rings 300, couple thousand rounds of match ammo, and training classes.
My recommendation. Take it for what it is worth.
Matt
I think Tac and intervention hit the nail on the head. Don't know what you think of Savage rifles but I got a 10fcp for right around a grand. It's a shooter too. A Remmy would do the trick also. Both can later be upgaded when you get some good trigger time in. I like my 308 but have been thinking of getting a 260 here also. Don't think your limited with a 308. Plenty have taken it out to 1000 with barrels under 20"s. Typically the shooter is the weak link in the chain at those distances and not an inadaquette caliber. If you go the Savage route you can swap calibers yourself by doing your own barrel and bolt face swap.
Thanks for all the advice. Yup, bolt rifle it is. My boyfriend is building an AR so I'll just shoot his if he ever gets it done. I live in Sacramento and will definitely be wanting to take a class. No, San Jose isn't that far away at all. I will for sure look you up when Im ready. I was in a bad car accident last year and I'm still recovering. It's a sucky situation, but I'm planning on putting some settlement money into this thing when I get done. I think it will be very therapeutic :)
My advice is get what you want the first time. GA Precision has an outstanding reputation. If you want the A5 get a Crusader and be done, you will have a frickin laser. It has all the cool things already done to it. One piece bolt, side bolt release, badger everything.
Take a class and have a great time.
That's pretty much the conclusion I'm arriving at in my own search.
Another question?? The more I look into GA Precision, the more I think thats what I want. I wonder if anyone has shot/owns the Hospitaller? I really like what I see (with my limited knowledge) and I want to buy once and have forever. Their site says you can special order something other than 308 and I was thinking 300. I don't know.....Im not in a hurry. Im still trying to figure this out. This is a big step for a little girl ;)
I don't have any experience with a 300 but I know a 308 is plenty for out to 1000yds. Ammo is cheaper and recoil is more managable. Have you given a 260 any thought, very popular with the long range crowd.
I'll second what Tactical Intervention said about Having A.J Brown do your build.Terry Cross builds a good stick as well.If it were me,I would also have it built in whichever 6mm round you prefer.
I don't have any experience with a 300 but I know a 308 is plenty for out to 1000yds. Ammo is cheaper and recoil is more managable. Have you given a 260 any thought, very popular with the long range crowd.
I don't know much about 260. Will it kill a zombie at 1000 yards? If not, I don't think it's what Im looking for. From what I understand, 308 is very popular, but it dips before it arcs?? does this make sense? It still doesn't make sense to me. It sounds too complicated :confused: I want an all purpose rifle that will go out to 1000 yards or more depending on my ability. Im not really looking for a competition gun. I know thats what a lot of folks on here shoot, but being that this is my first big kid rifle, Im not quite there yet and I don't know if I'll ever want to (or be good enough) to do that. I just want to shoot at jugs of water and targets in the desert. Is that weird?
Not wierd at all. Spending a few thousand dollars on a custom stick that you want to shoot Zombies with and paper punching isn't really needed. Those custom sticks give close to benchrest accuracy while being built to carry around. Target shooting ( cans and milk jugs ) can easily be done with a nice stock Remmy or such. The Sps Tactical or Varmint will easily do what your looking for. If you decide you're really serious these can be upgraded (bedding, Manners or Mcmill stock, trigger,and barrel) and shoot like a custom stick. Main thing is to get lot's of trigger time in to hone your skills. Until then you will never get the benefits of a custom rifle. A 308 will get to 1000 with a 20" and less barrel. A 260 is a 308 necked down to 6.5mm. It will get there too with enough power to ring the steel. I would suggest you go with a stock Remmy or Savage, spend the extra money on ammo and glass and get lots of trigger time in. Have fun I'm sure you'll love it.
I would look at the Hornady 6.5 Creedmoor Match. I am running one built on a Surgeon SA and Bartlein barrel. Most of us all started on the .308win but I have to say its days are numbered as far as getting into the winners circle.
Ballistically the Hornady 6.5CM is close enough to the 260Rem and 6.5x47 that to me it's not worth arguing over. It is however, way better than the .308Win...way better.
This is the best part...it's the cheepest to shoot as well. As of last check...Midway was selling...
Hornady 6.5CM for $24 a box
CorBon 260Rem for $31 a box
Federal GMM .308win $37 a box
6.5x47 Lapua for $57 a box
To me it's a no brainer...you can reload for all of these cartridges...some I would even say you have to.
Call GAP...they have the 6.5CM reamer. I went down to Texas for a rifle match and used the data off the Hornady box to make my data cards and it was dead on...I would have been happy with close...but it literally was dead on.
$1200 for 1000 rounds of loaded match ammo in Hornady 6.5CM
$1550 for 1000 rounds of Corbon 260
$1850 for 1000 rounds of Federal GMM .308....(this is insane)
$2850 for 1000 rounds of 6.5x47 Lapua
you could get 460 more rounds of Hornady verse Federal for the $1850...thats no small difference especially since the 308 cant come close to the 6.5CM
Pick what you will...any of the 6.5 cals mentioned are proven to be accurate...your logistics and finances can help you decide. Just please...please...don't build a long range rifle chambered in .308win...
Be safe, shoot well
KJ
George at GAP has the reamer for this cartridge already...get a 28" barrel in a medium Palma contour...put it in a nice McM A series stock and you're done. You are ready to shoot and compete well in F-Class. Your zombies will be knocked dead in the dirt farther away than any .308win out there.
Do this...call GA Precision and ask to talk to George...he will answer any questions.
parishioner
09-22-09, 17:58
I have heard that the 6.5 creedmoor's barrel life is significantly lower than the .308.
Is this true?
Hmmm...I don't know of anyone burning out a 6.5 CM barrel yet but let’s just play with some numbers for fun.
When I was in the Marine Corps we had a Schneider barreled M40A1 that had 7000 rounds on it and was still shooting very well. We will say this is average for a .308win and I'm sure some have been cooked before this number.
So at $1850 per 1000 rounds of Federal GMM you will spend $12,950 for 7000 rounds and need a new barrel.
You said "significantly" less barrel life than the .308win ... so let’s ASSUME we get half (that seems significant to me) the barrel life of a .308win with the 6.5CM...so let’s go with 3500 rounds in the 6.5CM before you need a new one.
At $1200 per 1000 rounds of 6.5CM you will spend $8,400 for the same 7000 rounds like the .308win Federal GMM. That’s a difference of $4,550!!!!!!!!!! And you needed to hypothetically get one new barrel. Hmmmmm... I think I could buy a custom rifle with glass with that savings let alone a new barrel.
I'm guessing you could afford more than one barrel change with the money you save. Not to mention you have to be pretty motivated to put even 1000 rounds a year down range. As a beginning shooter that works a regular day job I'm guessing you're looking for the most bang for your buck and getting the best results.
The .308win was good in its day...I was born on one and thought there was nothing better. Just because it's still in use my LEO and Military don't assume it's the best for you unless Uncle Sam is dropping off pallets of ammo at your door step. I don’t use a fixed 10 power with only 4 minutes of windage adjustment anymore either...why?...because there is much better optics out there.
6mm, 6.5mm, and 7mm...this is what I see on the line at the matches I shoot...all running in short actions with detachable magazines. The .308 is simply outdated...sorry.
Friends don't let friends shoot .308win...hahahahaha
be safe, shoot well
--KJ
parishioner
09-23-09, 00:03
KJ,
This is a little off topic, but what would you say to this comment regarding the 6.5 By the way, I do not shoot precision rifle. I just have an interest in it and think it is fun to learn about it. I hope to one day to be able to afford a custom rifle with good glass on top but, anyway.....here is the comment...it is from snipers hide..
I liked the demigod articles on .260 Rem vs 6.5 Creedmoor ect. After reading them and others on the same subject it seems a shame that Remington did nothing with the .260 Rem cartridge, but I wish Hornady would just make .260 Rem brass rather than reinventing the wheel. The .260 Rem is clearly more than good enough to do the job they designed the 6.5 Creedmoor for, why give up the reliability of the tapered .260 case to get nothing more than brass, ammo and load data availability. All these could have been archived by Hornady simply making their own .260 Rem brass and loads and publishing the load data, then they could sell it to all the .260 Rem owners as well as new buyers that want the superb 6.5mm bullets.
The 6.5 Creedmoor and the 6.5x47 both give up case capacity to the .260 Rem to no advantage. Sure with very heavy bullets loaded to magazine length the 6.5 is about the same as the .260, but Hornady also publishes velocities from a 28” barrel to puff the performance of the 6.5. Good match ammo for their .260 Rem is now readily available from Black Hills through GA Precision (139gr Scenar about $22 a box shipped) and from Hunting shack Montana through Sniper central (123gr Scenar $26 a box). Midway lists 17 commercial loads for the .260 Rem, 4 for the 6.5x47 (at $56 a box!), and only 2 for the 6.5 Creedmoor (at $24 a box), and this does not include the match loads I listed above. Recent runs of Remington brass seem very good. I am loading them to 2950 fps with 130gr Norma Diamond line bullets with no pressure signs what so ever. Shooting 0.25 inch groups at 100 yards, that with no case prep, or culling by weight or uniformity.
They both use the same action, it just does not make sense to me, but I may be missing something. I respect what Hornady was trying to do when the .260 Rem was languishing but it just does not apply any more. Don’t waste your time with the 6.5 Creedmoor or the 6.5x47 these cartridges will become footnotes in cartridge history while the .260 Rem is and will remain the dominant 6.5mm cartridge. If you don’t believe me look what round GA Precision paid Black Hills to load for them, the .260 Rem. Lets all tell Remington we want more quality factory rifles chamberd in .260 Rem, just think what a winner a Remington 700 SPS tactical in .260 Rem for $600 would be! At least Nosler has a clue, has anybody tried Nosler brass?
here is the link with more...http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1347706&page=1
That thread was also just started recently.
What exactly do you want me to comment about?
The point of everything I am saying, if you look closely, is not to try and convert a .260 shooter to the 6.5 or 6mm or 7mm...If you're having fun shooting what you're shooting then who am I to argue.
I am speaking to a new shooter looking for a new rifle and cartridge set up that is easy on the pocket and on the shoulder. The facts are simple...as a new shooter with a zero baseline you are going to be worse off in every way starting with a .308win over a 6.5CM.
That article is old by the way...call George at GAP and see how much of that .260 Black Hills he has left...I could be wrong but I think it's been gone and they aren't getting anymore anytime soon...Perhaps CorBon has some though.
As for taking cartridges and tweaking them or "improving" them...well why not...do you think we would be well served if we just stayed with the .45-70? Or perhaps we should all shoot the .30-06? I'm glad guys are still out there messing around and re-inventing the wheel...keep up the good work. Push it as far as it can go.
To be competitive with the .308win you are pretty much going to be reloading it yourself...you're already ballistically challenged compared to everyone else. So buy all your reloading gear and components then spend however long it takes to learn how to do that properly and safely...OR...get a .260 and do exactly the same thing...RELOAD it yourself...I've never seen anyone using any factory .260 ammo on the firing line in a match...maybe they do somewhere but I haven't seen it...all have been hand loads. Another option in that article is the 6.5x47 lapua....ok...you better reload for that unless you are banking some serious cabbage...go check out what a box of those costs.
Then you come back to the 6.5CM from Hornady...better than a .308win...in the same ballistic ballpark as the 6.5x47 and .260...and it is cheaper to shoot than all of them.
I have a 6mm Competition Match...excellent ballistics...it's a laser beam. However, I have to fire form my brass and hand load it. I have a .308win that I hand load for as well. I don't have to reload for the 6.5CM yet. I have saved all my brass and will reload it as I run out of factory stuff but I don't think I will have any problems figuring out what it likes since it's printed on the box what they use. Yes I run a 28" barrel...why not. It's a heavy MTU contour as well. I'm running all over with it and it doesn't slow me down yet. If it was an issue I would change to a lighter contour or flute it...
Face it folks...the .260Rem isn't getting any love. I wish it was. Even if Remington came out with a SPS in .260 what ammo would they run in it? As it stands now Remington would do much better if they chambered their SPS in 6.5CM...at least I could find cheap Match quality ammo for it...save the brass and reload it to spec with off the shelf components...for cheap...oh wait I said cheap already :)
I think I might have jumped around a little bit but hopefully I commented on everything in that article...if not let me know. Every cartridge/rifle/scope combo has trade offs...I'm just trying to show a NEW shooter one (that for me)...has the least
be safe, shoot well
--KJ
wilsoncombatrep
09-23-09, 08:58
I've had GREAT luck with Nosler .260 brass.
what about something in .30-'06? Im a personal fan of that. Sure its got a long action but that doesnt matter to me since Ill I use it for is paper punching.
Edward Hogan
09-26-09, 10:29
If you already own an AR-15 and really want to shoot LONGRANGE Precision, look at 6mmAR.com and the 6mmAR Turbo. Robert Whitley makes a compelling argument for the 6mm and from what I've read/heard, builds a fine upper.
Nothing outdated about the .308; but there are also some mighty finely accurate Service Rifle uppers out there, and if you can put up with 600-700 yds for your maximum usable .5moa accuracy window, then look into a precision 1:7 twist barrel for your AR and start loading 75/77gr match bullets.
For zombie shooting, unless you expect a return to trench warfare, can't see much use in figuring you're going to get many shots out past 500yds anyway. The Army Marksmanship Unit has used the 77gr at all Service Rifle distances and won. Most SR competitors go with an 80gr bullet which must be single-loaded because the oal of loaded rounds exceeds AR-15 magazine length.
Whiteoakarmament.com is the place to start for a competition or varmint upper. John Holliger sells an inexpensive Wilson barrel which many SR competitors swear by, as well as Krieger and Pac-Nor. He has chambered some in 1:6.5 twist for 90gr Sierra or JLK bullets. Look at Whiteoak's varmint uppers for some ideas.
It is one thing to build a rifle for purely match competition, like F-class. NRA Service Rifle and HighPower shooters do their deal with iron sights, albeit precision micrometer and globe setups, but they are shooting some pretty hefty distance without benefits of telescopic sight technologies. I would investigate all the options before presuming a bolt-action sniper rifle was the way to go, no matter what cartridge.
Sniping and longrange hunting has become a Big Business. Sure an 18-20lb custom sniper rifle or 35lb monster magnum will shoot like a house on fire, but carry one around for a while in the field. Pay that Big Money and you will rationalize much of your perspective. If you imagine yourself to be well-equipped on a field of battle, armed with that Accuracy Intl AW w/S&B PMII 5-25x FFP and mil/mil reticle, I think you are reading too many internet discussion boards and not getting out in the field much.
A precision built AR-15 offers as-good or better usable accuracy within 6-700yds. Not like an enemy hit with a 77gr match bullet won't be disabled... Maybe they won't explode like a capped water jug, but hits are what count, not exploding wound channels. With a quality lightweight scope and 30rd magazine, you can keep weight to about 12lbs; maybe less. NightForce 2.5-10 NXS, leupold 4.5-14 or 1.5-5 Mk4 are all right at about a pound. A lightweight float tube saves you another bunch of weight. Maybe get a fluted barrel, but the weight savings has never validated the cost for me...
Armalite makes an excellent production SR upper and offers barrels and components. Ordering a complete rifle makes sense because it gets you a match-grade trigger. For best of all worlds, buy in A4 configuration and get the detachable carryhandle with match hooded sight, and specify an A4 gas block front sight unit as well. This gives you platform for scoped-use or competition.
Pretty amazing to see how well you can do with iron sights. Maybe you learn an A2 setup match-quality rifle is all you need?
Very trye edward, coundn't agree more. The only thing is I believe he wants this for hunting deer and hogs also. This will limit his selection to a larger caliber. Of course a 77gr well placed would do the job it's just not advisable. My next AR project will probably be a WOA A2 upper or maybe a Northern Comp service rifle upper.
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