View Full Version : AR Pistol for a in Car Bug Out Bag
So, I was thinking about a situation.
Lets say your 1 day or more DRIVING distance from home when SHTF. Youve got enough gas to make it another 300 or so miles then your on foot or hope you have enough cash to get more gas....or there is more gas period.
Youve got your "Car Bug Out Bag". Mine I keep 2 10x10 tarps, 300ft of 550 cord, 4 MRE's, 2 spare mags for my XD, my .22 9shot revolver(for hunting if small game if need be, 100rds for the .22, plus some extra socks, pants, and a shirt.
Now, Im thinkin, what about building a AR pistol to keep in my Car Bag? While its not that great for a long engagement type weapon, it packs more punch and is a little more intimidating to "potential threats" than a pistol on your hip is. With the right sling you could make carrying the pistol easy. put a cheap simple red dot sight on it, and a couple spare mags and I think that wouldnt be to bad of a setup.
Maybe my thinking is wrong, but it doesnt sound bad to me...
Derek_Connor
08-16-09, 16:09
So, I was thinking about a situation.
Lets say your 1 day or more DRIVING distance from home when SHTF. Youve got enough gas to make it another 300 or so miles then your on foot or hope you have enough cash to get more gas....or there is more gas period.
Youve got your "Car Bug Out Bag". Mine I keep 2 10x10 tarps, 300ft of 550 cord, 4 MRE's, 2 spare mags for my XD, my .22 9shot revolver(for hunting if small game if need be, 100rds for the .22, plus some extra socks, pants, and a shirt.
Now, Im thinkin, what about building a AR pistol to keep in my Car Bag? While its not that great for a long engagement type weapon, it packs more punch and is a little more intimidating to "potential threats" than a pistol on your hip is. With the right sling you could make carrying the pistol easy. put a cheap simple red dot sight on it, and a couple spare mags and I think that wouldnt be to bad of a setup.
Maybe my thinking is wrong, but it doesnt sound bad to me...
1 day's driving distance? A straight 24 hours? That could put you on the other side of the CONUS. If I drove straight from where I live for 24 hours (eastern seaboard), I could be damn near in Western Texas/New Mexico.
I think 3 guns is excessive if trying to get home. I'd limit it to a light weight pistol, and concentrate more on food/water/shelter/first aid etc.
While its a shitty scenario, that we all could be in, I think the abililty to find food/water and stay dry, and especially maintaining your feet walking literally hundreds of miles would be more important than lugging around an AR15 Pistol and several magazines
guess I should clarify what I mean by 1 day. I consider a typical 1 day drive 12-14hours for 1 person, anything more than that and your pushing it mentally which IMO can cause accidents/fatalities.
What are you going to be doing with the gun? Anything other than intimidating people? I suspect most folks you're likely to encounter aren't going to be much more impressed with the AR-type than they'd be with a conventional service handgun.
I routinely travel with discreetly carried long guns. Travel with what you normally use. A 6520 can conceal remarkably well.
PA PATRIOT
08-16-09, 17:53
I would rather have a 9mm or a .45acp concealed on the hip and use it only as a last resort then go for some type of "intimidating" factor. An AR pistol adds to much bulk and weight and its ballistics I feel are less effective then a premium 9mm or .45acp hollow point. Just look at the failures to stop the Marines have been reporting with M-4's and full sized M-16's in the big sand box then one has to assume that a AR pistol would be that much more of a failure.
Derek_Connor
08-16-09, 17:57
guess I should clarify what I mean by 1 day. I consider a typical 1 day drive 12-14hours for 1 person, anything more than that and your pushing it mentally which IMO can cause accidents/fatalities.
So if your 12-14 hours away, averaging approx 60-70 mph, that puts you approx 1000 miles away. You have enough gas to get you 300-400 miles closer.
So, you need to get home *on foot*, by traversing 600-700 miles.
Im no expert, but my original statements still stand. The *average* person can walk about 3mph, keep that up for 12-14 hours, thats 36-42miles a day.
After the first couple of days, that *average* person is going to be down and out. Feet will be raw, and they aren't going to be able to move. This is assuming a basic loud out of a 3day pack.
Calorie expenditure walking 36-42 miles a day, hourly water needs, are your main concerns. If you are a IN SHAPE person, I could see someone making it further with out as much water/food.
I'll take another stab at it and say that a lightweight polymer pistol caliber firearm will be your best bang for the buck. Ditch any idea of carrying 60-90 rounds of 5.56, and the AR15 pistol itself for that length of distance. You'd be better served with calories, water, moleskin.
I would rather have a 9mm or a .45acp concealed on the hip and use it only as a last resort then go for some type of "intimidating" factor.
Yup. Most folks grossly overestimate how intimidating guns are. Or at least, comparatively within a category (hand/long).
I've pointed guns at folks and watched others do so. Those on the receiving end contemplated the steel in the eye of the shooter and the determination in their voice, much more than the implement in their hand.
PA PATRIOT
08-16-09, 19:30
Yup. Most folks grossly overestimate how intimidating guns are. Or at least, comparatively within a category (hand/long).
I've pointed guns at folks and watched others do so. Those on the receiving end contemplated the steel in the eye of the shooter and the determination in their voice, much more than the implement in their hand.
Most days I have to point a gun at a possibly armed person at least once, now here's a funny thing a drug dealer said to me the other day. After running him down on foot he stopped and bent over at the waist acting as if he was out of breath. I was behind solid cover at gun point and ordered him to the ground, he looked up and said "Oh ****" and complied with my order. When back up arrivied and he was cuffed I ask what the "Oh ****" was about, the dealer stated he saw I was pointing a .45acp and not a pussy 9mm at him and he didnt want to be shot with a .45acp. I asked how he knew it was a .45acp as one Glock looks just like another and he replied the "BIG F'ing Hole" thats how. I ask if he would be just as scared of a 9mm and the reply was, he has been shot two different times with a 9mm and while it hurt he was still here. Lately most of the guns recovered in the city are all .40S&W and .45acp's as even the toads know what calibers to use.
PA PATRIOT
08-16-09, 19:31
Double Post
Beat Trash
08-17-09, 07:39
Most days I have to point a gun at a possibly armed person at least once, now here's a funny thing a drug dealer said to me the other day. After running him down on foot he stopped and bent over at the waist acting as if he was out of breath. I was behind solid cover at gun point and ordered him to the ground, he looked up and said "Oh ****" and complied with my order. When back up arrivied and he was cuffed I ask what the "Oh ****" was about, the dealer stated he saw I was pointing a .45acp and not a pussy 9mm at him and he didnt want to be shot with a .45acp. I asked how he knew it was a .45acp as one Glock looks just like another and he replied the "BIG F'ing Hole" thats how. I ask if he would be just as scared of a 9mm and the reply was, he has been shot two different times with a 9mm and while it hurt he was still here. Lately most of the guns recovered in the city are all .40S&W and .45acp's as even the toads know what calibers to use.
I have been an inter-city LEO in SW Ohio for the last 17+ years. I've done my share of putting suspects at gun point.
I would not recommend betting my life on the "intimidation factor" alone. I have found that people seem to be sensitive about their noses. I have found that I get more compliance when pointing my firearm at an individual's nose vs. pointing center mass (chest). I am no expert on social behavior, but I think the view of the firearm pointing at their nose vs. seeing the angled view of the of the slide gives an individual more to think about.
As far as the OP, I have thought about AR pistols. But try as I might, I could not find a legitimate reason for purchasing one. While they would fit in a bag better than a 14.5" or 16" AR, the loss of velocity of the round, and the decrease in my ability to put rounds on target, especially under stress... I just cannot justify buying one.
I can not think of any senerio in which the AR pistol would be of any more help than a full size handgun, such as a Glock 17 or a S&W M&P would be. The full size handgun such as a Glock 17/19 is much easier to conceal, and for me, easier to quickly put accurate rounds on target.
In the senerio laid out by the OP, I'd go for a full size, yet still concealable pistol, such as a Glock 17/19, or an M&P. Have two extra magazines concealed on my belt. I'd be more concerned about speed and stealth (AKA, flying under the radar, maintaining a low profile, ect). To accomplish this, I'd want to keep the weight of my GHB as light as possible. I'd trade the weight of the .22 revolver and the AR pistol for some extra power pars. I'd set my GHB around a water bladder compatible system like the camel back.
If I'd trying to hustle back home, stopping to hunt small game with a .22, then skin, clean and cook said small game (all the while with people hearing the hunting, and smelling the cooking) is time I can not afford. I'd want to de-ass the effected area and get home ASAP. The more time goes by, the worse the situation could deteriorate, and the worse my odds are of having major issues while still in the effected area.
I would want to avoid armed confrontations if at all possible. If for some reason there was no choice, then address it, and break contact as soon as possible.
Speed, Surprise, and Violence of Action would be of more use to me in this situation were I forced into a confrontation, than carrying three guns in a pack.
This is just one person's thoughts. If you like the idea of an AR pistol in your GHB, more power to you. For me, they are an answer waiting for a question.
No way would I waste $$$ on an AR pistol. I'd rather buy an HK or Glock. Xtra mags a must; how many debatable, situation/usage dependent. I want to avoid contact in a SHTF/TEOTWAWKI situation; period. Went through Katrina and staying out of sight worked well. Only sought contact with known friendlies(82nd, LE, Firemen, etc.) Any contact with unknowns means too many variables. I can envision certain scenarios where contact with even MIL and LE would not be to my advantage. Road blocks preventing passage to family land, family, etc.
Simply having a weapon visible may put a target on you without you even knowing it. Of course, some situations would warrant keeping a weapon ready, possibly pointed at someone/some people. Best to have a good plan, alternate plans, be prepared as possible, be in shape, firearms training, and have the proper mindset. Met many people, when I rarely ventured out, in NOLA after Katrina that were mentally unable to handle the situation. People that probably one wouldn't think that of.
Prepare, prepare, prepare.
kaiservontexas
08-17-09, 21:40
Better off with an AK pistol then an AR pistol. I will stick with my Glock.
Outlander Systems
08-17-09, 21:49
A play on an old Zen maxim:
"When shooting a pistol, shoot a pistol. When shooting a rifle, shoot a rifle. Fools may laugh at me, but a wise man knows of what I speak".
Having owned one, let me state, stay AS FAR AWAY AS POSSIBLE from any 5.56/.223 AR-Pistol. They suck, and they suck bad. I've owned some rotten stinkers of guns in the past, and the AR-Pistol I had was the worst.
It was, quite possibly, the most tactically unsound firearm I've ever had the displeasure of wielding.
After WWII my grand dad (German army) escaped from a British POW camp and had to walk home, to southern Germany, from Norway.
He was a seasoned foot soldier used to long hard days with a pack and a Mauser. It took him roughly four months.
What you are talking about is more like Lewis and Clark than a fun hike.
Just sayin.
geminidglocker
08-19-09, 23:01
I say go for it. If not for any other reason that it makes sense to you. If you build said pistol and it turns out to be more practical than you thought it would be, then so be it. If not, you can always SBR it. But in a SHTF scenario as you describe, there are probably going to be alot of 5.56 rounds and U.S.G.I. magazines lying everywhere, like some sick realistic video game. Therefore, lightweight handy pistol in AR platform makes perfect sense, depending on terrain and expected engagement distances.
thats just my idea. you never know what might arise from that type of situation. Maybe a regular pistol(mine being .40) might not be the best tool for the job, I may require something bigger with more range.
Derek_Connor
08-20-09, 14:17
There is alot of good advice in this thread I think, and some poor advice.
I'd venture a guess practicing rucking/walking 20-25 miles a day will get you further in preparring for your survival in this situation, then contemplating building/packing/humping an AR15 pistol would.
while I am in no way or form "in shape" I do enjoying Hiking and Camping. I take my Car Bag out when I do go hiking. I try to go 10-15miles round trip each time I go(mostly to Michigan or Southern Indiana, as these are my "stomping grounds"). I'm 6' 2" and 300lbs, so ya I'm overweight but I have no problem going those distances. Adding a AR pistol with proper sling really wouldnt be anymore of a burden for me....BUT the farthest I've gone is 15miles round trip so 400miles or so ya, Ill look into it more.
Derek_Connor
08-20-09, 15:25
Ounces will multiply into pounds, pounds will multiply into simply PAIN for 25-40 miles a day, over a week.
Not trying to be dogmatic about this, and I am all for being armed in such a situation, but slinging an AR15 pistol is going in the wrong direction.
"But in a SHTF scenario as you describe, there are probably going to be alot of 5.56 rounds and U.S.G.I. magazines lying everywhere, like some sick realistic video game. Therefore, lightweight handy pistol in AR platform makes perfect sense, depending on terrain and expected engagement distances."
Ummmm, hmm.
I seriously doubt there would be any mags or ammo just laying around.
An AR pistol won't give you any real capability that a regular pistol won't, and it will mean more headaches due to weight, bulk and lack of concealability.
You be better off with a service style pistol and a BUG, or a decent .22 pistol built for accuracy.
What barrel length are you talking about? Sub 10" and I'd rather stick a 33 round magazine for my Glock 19 in the bag or on my belt than having an unweildy and heavy recoiling .22.
If AK prices weren't so nuts the A-answer is really the underfolder AK with 16" barrel.
Well, no, as Derek points out, the A-answer is that most aren't going to be surviving a hike to the car, let alone "home" with their "bug out gear".
During one of the storms of 2005, Charlie maybe, I evac'd from the beach and went across the state to the Tampa area, which actually wound up putting me in the path of the storm. They had shut down the ports and gas was a premium commodity everywhere. Halfway across the state I had to stop to fill up. All that was left was premium, and I was glad to have found that. Tensions were HIGH at the gas station. While I didn't draw down or anything else, I was glad to have my pistol under my shirt. Later, after the storm, when we ventured out to survey the damage and find out where we could shop and get gas, I was again very glad to have that pistol, concealed, on several occasions.
I don't see what having some kind of AR pistol strapped to my chest would have done for me.
in a SHTF scenario as you describe, there are probably going to be alot of 5.56 rounds and U.S.G.I. magazines lying everywhere, like some sick realistic video game.
Really? :rolleyes:
Stands to reason that if all these mags and ammo are lying around, finding the gun to put them in shouldn't be too much more difficult.
Not to mention floating health packs....
"I don't see what having some kind of AR pistol strapped to my chest would have done for me."
Exactly.
geminidglocker
08-22-09, 08:41
Good points all, I'm now in favor of ditch the Idea. Atleast for SHTF.
PA PATRIOT
08-22-09, 18:44
A option would be to turn a pistol into a small PDW with the addition of a stock, forward grip and 33rd magazines. While this is very illegal to do unless you apply for a $200.00 stamp and register the pistol as a OAW it is but another option to consider. After all the paper work is finished and approved one could carry the light weight plastic stock and forearm in your BOB and convert the pistol on your hip when needed. A Glock Model 34 or 35 would be ideal for such a conversion IMHO.
http://www.zahal.org/rifle/p22.htm
geminidglocker
08-22-09, 18:49
In a real SHTF scenario, the folks around you are not going to be asking if your weapons are legal or not. Government collapses, who to pay the worthless $200USD to???
PA PATRIOT
08-22-09, 18:49
Double Post
PA PATRIOT
08-22-09, 19:06
In a real SHTF scenario, the folks around you are not going to be asking if your weapons are legal or not. Government collapses, who to pay the worthless $200USD to???
I highly Doubt that the federal Government would ever collapse unless a full scale nuclear war or a direct meteor hit on U.S. soil occurred. We are talking more of a short term collapse of local government and law enforcement during a man made/natural disaster or possibly a riot in a major city. While many may be tempted to deploy such "EXOTIC" toys during a limited SHTF event eventually Big Brother would gain control over the situation and one could find him or her self standing tall in front of the man. $200.00 and some paperwork is nothing in the scheme of life and I would rather be legal then doing time and paying 1000 times $200.00 trying to fight the charges.
geminidglocker
08-22-09, 19:10
I agree, building an SBR or anything else, is worth being legal. I guess what I call SHTF others call TEOTWAKI.
cmiller683
02-18-10, 07:10
My thing is, don't leave anything in your vehicle you can't live without. It's easy enough for someone to bash a window and take your stuff while it's unattended. I say this because I get the impression you're looking for something to leave in your truck at all times.
We can make more money, and spend that money to replace our stolen items. But if a gun is stolen, you have to report it stolen. You have to explain why and how it was stolen. And you have to pray and hope that it's not used in a drive-by shooting, and kills that little innocent girl sleeping in her bed.
For me, because of that line of thought, I never leave anything dangerous or valuable in my truck, if at all possible. If I do, on that rare occasion, I am careful where I park, and I'm not gone too long.
i've seen some advocate the folding stock AKs or an AR pistol because they can be easily concealed in a discrete pack.
but so could a Kel-Tec Sub 2000. (which is inexpensive, lightweight and compact)
there IS an advantage to having four points of contact on the gun (two hands, cheek and shoulder) as opposed to just two hands.
but for traveling a significant distance on foot, lighter weight is a very good thing.
if you're CCW with a normal pistol, you can interact with people normally. with an AR pistol on a sling or under a jacket it might become akward to get past a roadblock/checkpoint or accept a ride from a good samaratin, or go inside somewhere (gas station or restaurant perhaps) to warm up.
the simplest solution is just your daily CCW with spare mags/ammo in the pack with the rest of your gear.
that doesn't mean theat there's NO scenario where an AR pistol wouldn't be an advantage... but the extra price of the hardware and the increased difficulty of storing and transporting it once you leave the vehicle, combined with the reduced ballistics from the short barrel don't seem to make it worthwhile.
i had a Bushmaster carbon fiber AR pistol 6 or 7 years ago, and that thing was absolutely DEAFENING even with muffs on! never again
LonghunterCO
10-03-10, 11:29
After WWII my grand dad (German army) escaped from a British POW camp and had to walk home, to southern Germany, from Norway.
He was a seasoned foot soldier used to long hard days with a pack and a Mauser. It took him roughly four months.
Wow. Any idea as to how far that was?
You also need to realize it will have a fierce muzzle blast and very high DB noise level. Earplugs at the very least and muffs and plugs are better when shooting something like this.
Personally I would add a box ot 2 of spare ammo for my handgun and some more 22lr ammo for the 22 revolver.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
10-09-10, 18:26
After WWII my grand dad (German army) escaped from a British POW camp and had to walk home, to southern Germany, from Norway.
He was a seasoned foot soldier used to long hard days with a pack and a Mauser. It took him roughly four months.
What you are talking about is more like Lewis and Clark than a fun hike.
Just sayin.
This right here is sage advice. Most people do not understand the difference between a long walk, forced hump, and a trek. Cross country is a trek and over the course of weeks and months, pound will equal pain.
Wow. Any idea as to how far that was?
About 900 miles from the POW camp to their house, give or take. He didn't exactly get to pick a route as the crow flies.
I've thougt about vehicle guns a lot and considered the AR pistol to the point of buying a pistol reciever. It became obvious to me that 7.62x39 out of a short barrel was much better, especially around vehicles. The less than stellar accuracy of the AK system is not much of an issue at closer ranges. A Draco AK is cheap if something happens to it. The best answer to me is a folding stock SBR AK, but the AK pistol is not the worst choice in the world. I ended up buying an Arsenal side folder, but when I run across a Draco for a good price, I'll buy it and SBR it.
But in a SHTF scenario as you describe, there are probably going to be alot of 5.56 rounds and U.S.G.I. magazines lying everywhere
I've seen that projection countless times on various forums and just cannot wrap my head around the notion that there are going to be excess mags and ammo laying around - of any caliber.
No footage that I've seen from Liberia, Somalia, ANYWHERE where the defecation has hit the ventilation has there been ammo sitting idly by for the taking. For a while, things were pretty bleak after Katrina, was there an abundance of ammo and mags just laying around?
I've seen that projection countless times on various forums and just cannot wrap my head around the notion that there are going to be excess mags and ammo laying around - of any caliber.
No footage that I've seen from Liberia, Somalia, ANYWHERE where the defecation has hit the ventilation has there been ammo sitting idly by for the taking. For a while, things were pretty bleak after Katrina, was there an abundance of ammo and mags just laying around?
I think & hope he's just joking about the "Fallout" video game series in Post-Apocalyptic America. Exploring almost any building in that game yields ammunition just lying around.
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