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HES
08-16-09, 17:12
I didnt want to derail the thread about Obama caving, but my wife and I gave this some thought and here are our ideas for health care reform:

1.Stop mandatory coverage - Allow consumers to custom tailor their plan. For example, a woman who has had menopause. She should be able to trim down on their OBGYN coverage. Allow folks to get catastrophic only if they want.

2.Require everyone to have coverage. Only the sick and lame get subsidized care. The lazy are fined.

3.Community care - Right now Medicaid does one of two things. They either allow to live in your home or if that becomes impractical will only pay for the patient to live in a nursing home (SNiF, Skilled Nursing Facility), after you have exhausted every penny and you are destitute. This is a phenomenal waste of money. So many cost savings could be realized if A) You move this to Medicare and B) if you institute Community Care. CC would enable patients to stay in their home and provide for a home health aid to come in once a day and check on you or pay for your care in an assisted living facility. The end result is that patients only spend a small amount of time in a SNif which means the government saves an ass load of money.

4.Allow statistical coverage - Look we already do this with car insurance (shitty drivers pay more) and life insurance. So if you have a pre-existing condition, you can get insurance, but you will be paying more. Surcharges would not not to exceed 100%. For unusual cases, create an assigned risk pool to distribute risk evenly among insurers. For statistically exceptional costs arising from these cases, allow insurers a compensating tax deduction. Allow for pooling of coveage

5a.Emergency Care - Ok lets be serious. How many ****ers go to the ER and abuse it? The answer; a shit load of em. Allow hospital ERs to turn non emergency patients away - Actaully they can already, but are fearful of doing so. Make sure the hospitals know they can do this. Possible part of tort reform.

.................AND.................

5b.Discourage poor practices - Allow people to be peanlized / fined for abusing ERs or life style choices that affect their health. I.e. the diabetic who refuses to take their insulin and then winds up at the ER. Yeah this can lead to a special soda tax, but the legislation can be crafted to avoid this.

6.Widen the field of practitioners - Elevate the roles of ARNPs / DNPs. Right now MDs fight tooth and nail to keep nurse practitioners from doing more for, as far as I can tell, self preservation. Thats all fine and well until we need to bring the cost of health care down. There is no reason for this.

7.Eliminate the restriction of health care plans to one state - Down side to this is that the states would have to surrender their ability to set minimums for coverage.

8.Increase the reliance of home health care agencies - Right now Medicare / Medicaid is set up to discourage HHC in favor of keeping patients in hospitals. This makes no ****ing sense since hospitalization costs a shit load more than HHC (when its appropriate medically).

9.Fraud crack down - Create an agency / task a part of the FBI to do nothing but investigate and prosecute the living shit out of perpatrators of fraud under Medicare / Medicaid.

10a.Taxes - Either get rid of the employer tax break for providing health care or make all health care costs tax deductiable

.................OR.................

10b.Disallow Employer insurance - Allow folks to get their insurance like they do with their auto insurance. Pool it.

11a.Drug costs - Get rid of the prohibitons on importing drugs from other countries. That will be self correcting soon enough

.................OR .................

11b.refuse the US from subsidizing the cost of drugs to nations that have a per capita GDP > than 50% of the US'.

12.Congress, **** em - Bar congress from having any sort of special health care program. They have to deal with the same system that we do.

13.Reimbursement rates - Get Medicare and Medicaid to reimburse actual expenses, not the stupidly low rates that they do now.

14.Evidence Based Practice - This provides a "Safe harbor" for physicians who run the necessary tests with out blowing the budget. This is an attempt to prevent MDs from using tests as a money making vehicle

15.End of Life care - Keep in mind that a majority of our health care expenses are spent on a minority of patients who are terminal. Doctors expend an inordinate amount of resources not so much to keep the patient alive, but to protect themselves from law suits. Tort reform has to address this.

16.Establish a "Health Care Court" - Medical cases are heard by Judges and arbitrators with medical backgrounds. The intent is that jury awards are commensurate with the actual damages done and the impact to someones life. Keep in mind that if a patient is harmed for life (I.e. the doc screws up so bad that someone is left a quad for the rest of their life), then the courts would not be restrained from allowing an award that recognizes this.

17.Digitize patient data - Gee no shit, you can save money by going paperless? Well no shit Sherlock. A few obstacles to this. One, doctors are primmadonas and will fight it. Next, there needs to be draconian consequences for anyone who willfully breeches patient confidentiality. Of course the government is forbidden to access this data. I'm serious when I say this should be a federal death penalty offense. Finally the government sets the data standards and protocols. Medical providers (Hospitals, offices) provide the equipment on their end, insurers provide the equipment on their end and maintain the data.

18.Pro Bono - If ambulance chasers can be required to do it, so can the ambulances. Require medical workers to donate X numbers of hours per year perhaps. Yeah this is one of the prices of tort reform.

19. Post operative care - There was a recent news item on Littleton, CO and how by having home health worker care follow up on patients at their homes after surgery they were able cut down the incidents of re-hospitalization and lost productivity, thus saving everyone time and money.

Anyways those are our ideas. Sure some of it goes against our libertarian philosophies, but we're also realists. So pick this apart. Why cant the government think of this stuff?

Ligament
08-16-09, 17:46
ARNPs, PAs, and CRNAs are not physicians and should NOT be given any more responsibility. They are already far underqualified for what they do.

Evidence based Medicine/Practice is a tool of the insurance companies to create robots out of physicians, allow unqualified people to care for patients (read: midlevels), and destroy the art of medicine and original thought in medicine. You cannot apply EBM to many fields of medicine and surgery.

Eliminate insurance companies altogether.

Those that cannot afford to pay or barter for health care, die or suffer. Hopefully not suffer much because I would not wish that on anybody. Too bad, I don't want to pay for your problems.

ZDL
08-16-09, 17:53
***********

HES
08-16-09, 17:56
ARNPs, PAs, and CRNAs are not physicians and should NOT be given any more responsibility. They are already far underqualified for what they do.
and on what do you base that opinion on? I say opinion because the available evidence (I.e facts) say otherwise and that in fact they are underutilized and quite qualified for the roles they fill.


Evidence based Medicine/Practice is a tool of the insurance companies to create robots out of physicians, allow unqualified people to care for patients (read: midlevels), and destroy the art of medicine and original thought in medicine. You cannot apply EBM to many fields of medicine and surgery.
Absolutely not! Evidence based medical care means that you have validated that the practices (I.e. medical care provided) work through research, not just anecdotal evidence. For instance in another field its used to quantify that a 6920 is far superior to a DMPS.


Eliminate insurance companies altogether.
and by doing so you ensure that maybe 1/2 of one percent of this nation can afford care and that all those medical professionals go into other fields and R&D stop on things like better MRIs, etc..


Those that cannot afford to pay or barter for health care, die or suffer. Hopefully not suffer much because I would not wish that on anybody. Too bad, I don't want to pay for your problems.And that is the libertarian POV taken to get extreme. As I said above that is a sure fire way to ensure that for almost everyone that medical care is non existent. Im not talking about the poor, Im also talking about the middle and a lot of the upper classes as well.

citizensoldier16
08-16-09, 18:18
18.Pro Bono - If ambulance chasers can be required to do it, so can the ambulances. Require medical workers to donate X numbers of hours per year perhaps. Yeah this is one of the prices of tort reform.


Umm.....NO! How would you like to donate X numbers of hours per year without pay for what you do? I'm a paid paramedic and I spent THOUSANDS of hours in training and HUNDREDS of dollars paying for my EMS education. I consider my knowlege of EMS my INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY. If you wish to have me utilize my intellectual property to save your life...you're going to pay for it. Medical care should be no different.

Government run (county or municipal) EMS agencies collect on less than 20% of the calls that they bill for. Of that 20%, another percentage of bills do not get paid in full because of insurance companies. Emergency medical services NEED more authority to bill for trips. My department is severly underfunded as it is, and we loose thousands of dollars EVERY DAY to people who (a) abuse the EMS system and (b) don't pay their ambulance bills.

My suggestion for EMS abuse:
1) You call, "we" (paramedics) show up.
2) We decide whether or not you need a ride to the hospital in the ambulance or not. If you do, we'll take you...but you're getting a bill. If you don't we'll find alternate transportation for you...ie, call a cab.
3) If you ride with us, you get billed. If your insurance covers it, great. If not, you're responsible for the difference.
4) If you do not pay the bill, the total + interest gets added to your property tax. If you do not own property in that municipality (rent, live elsewhere, etc...) the county will place a lien on your home, car, etc....or send the bill to a collections agency.
5) If the bill goes to collection and is still not paid, your credit history will indicate this.
6) After 1 year of non-payment, a warrant goes out for your arrest. You get arrested, and are forced to pay the bill, plus interest and any collection charges, or you get thrown in jail for 1 month per every $100 outstanding.

I'm sick and tired of carting people to the hospital because they're drunk, stubbed a toe, or are homeless and want a meal. You can laugh, but it happens EVERY DAY in every EMS agency across the country. EMS abuse is probably one of the top 20 drains on local government funding. Making EMS free is just stupid.

HES
08-16-09, 18:33
I see the pro bono as a compromise for the tort reform. It works for the attorneys. Its also my intent to aim it at doctors, not EMTs. In fact I look at them as being part of fire rescue. Maye thats a mistake on my part. But its just an idea of trying to find a solution that will work with various compromises with the ultimate goal of keeping the government out of health care.

citizensoldier16
08-16-09, 18:52
My opinion is this:

Medical care depends on trained professionals who devote much of their life to mastering their skills. This is true from the EMT-Basic all the way up to a brain surgeon. That education and mastry is their lifeblood...it's their marketable skill which they rely on to generate income. Therefore, any knowlege that they obtain during the course of their studies becomes their INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY.

Medical professionals make money by selling their expertise; their intellectual property. Nowhere in the Constitution or Bill of Rights does it say that anyone, let alone the government, has a right to another person's property. In short, your stuff is YOUR stuff...not anyone else's. This includes intellectual property.

"Healthcare" is a direct function of those professionals who practice it. No doctors, no healthcare. Healthcare is a privelege, NOT A RIGHT. I have no more of a right to healthcare as anyone else does to a free car, free plumbing service, or free anything.

If you want it, you must pay for it...somehow. Say you have a brain tumor and you want it removed. You can shop around and find the doctor with the best balance between experience and cost and have him do it, and pay for it.....or you can just let the tumor stay there. Same thing with plumbers, mechanics, or airline tickets. Pay the cost, or don't. But don't expect me to pay it for you.

montanadave
08-16-09, 20:07
ARNPs, PAs, and CRNAs are not physicians and should NOT be given any more responsibility. They are already far underqualified for what they do.

Evidence based Medicine/Practice is a tool of the insurance companies to create robots out of physicians, allow unqualified people to care for patients (read: midlevels), and destroy the art of medicine and original thought in medicine. You cannot apply EBM to many fields of medicine and surgery.

Eliminate insurance companies altogether.

Those that cannot afford to pay or barter for health care, die or suffer. Hopefully not suffer much because I would not wish that on anybody. Too bad, I don't want to pay for your problems.

Please turn in your voter registration card ASAP and re-register with the nearest Sarah Palin death panel for the cognitively disabled.

perna
08-16-09, 20:24
10a.Taxes - Either get rid of the employer tax break for providing health care or make all health care costs tax deductiable

.................OR.................

10b.Disallow Employer insurance - Allow folks to get their insurance like they do with their auto insurance. Pool it.

How does that help anything? It will just cause more people to be uninsured.

Healthcare costs are already tax deductable.

1859sharps
08-16-09, 20:39
Those that cannot afford to pay or barter for health care, die or suffer. Hopefully not suffer much because I would not wish that on anybody. Too bad, I don't want to pay for your problems.

I would like to think we can find some middle ground between your feeling and Obama's socialized medicine approach.

I don't believe in stealing from the rich simply because they are rich and give to the poor simply because they are poor.

But I also don't want to live in a place that allows you to die simply because your are poor.

There is a middle ground, we can reach it if we want to. Step one, stop with the ideology wars.

Spiffums
08-16-09, 21:03
As we all can see, even we liked minded folk can not agree on a plan to reform health care........how in the name of all that is holy can .gov fix it.

perna
08-16-09, 21:06
The problem with this debate is that most people are misinformed about the whole issue. I am tired of hearing about how Obama wants to make everyone cancel the insurance they have now and put them on some welfare insurance plan.

It has nothing to do with the people that already have insurance, unless they are being ****ed and could get it cheaper. If you think you are not already paying for the people that do not have insurance, you are sadly mistaken, you already are in one way or another.

ZDL
08-16-09, 21:10
**********************

perna
08-16-09, 21:26
Well that was a broad and over exaggerated statement, sorry for the generalization. Between the news, word of mouth, and all the companies spreading misinformation, nothing will ever change.

ZDL
08-16-09, 23:30
***********

perna
08-16-09, 23:54
Not sure why you are quoting me. I know that Canada's "FREE HEALTH CARE" is the biggest pile of crap there is. It is also paid for by their taxes which are on average twice what we pay. I personally know plenty of Canadians, and hear how their system works, if you can call it that.

I dont agree with that system, or having that system in place in the US. I do know OUR system is just as ****ed up, and needs to change.

Left Sig
08-17-09, 00:05
6) After 1 year of non-payment, a warrant goes out for your arrest. You get arrested, and are forced to pay the bill, plus interest and any collection charges, or you get thrown in jail for 1 month per every $100 outstanding.

Debtors prisons aren't really allowed in the US anymore. It's been that way for LONG time, and isn't likely to change.

To add to the list of ideas:

Non-profit insurance cooperatives that allow large groups of people to pool together to negotiate the best rates with the insurance companies. These groups would be similar to corporate group coverage, where there are no pre-existing condition limitations, and no one can be dropped.

Cascades236
08-17-09, 01:28
Do well in school.
Get good job.
End

Left Sig
08-17-09, 01:38
Do well in school.
Get good job.
End

You forgot to add:

Don't be an entrepreneur
Don't start a new business
Don't hire anyone to work for you
Don't do freelance consulting
Etc.

All of those things are jobs that require getting your own private health plan.

Rated21R
08-17-09, 01:52
also you could add:

join military have medical/dental :D

Left Sig
08-17-09, 02:05
also you could add:

join military have medical/dental :D

Yeah, they give you the coverage all right, but they make it a whole lot more likely that you'll need to use it!

HES
08-17-09, 09:40
How does that help anything? It will just cause more people to be uninsured.

Healthcare costs are already tax deductable.
Actually it opens up health care by sundering the bond between employer and employee taking away a captive market from the insurance companies, making them have to hustle their wares directly to the consumer. That means they will have to lower prices to make the insurance more affordable.


As we all can see, even we liked minded folk can not agree on a plan to reform health care........how in the name of all that is holy can .gov fix it.
Exactly, which is why Im trying to come up with ideas and kick them around and see what may or may not work.


To add to the list of ideas:

Non-profit insurance cooperatives that allow large groups of people to pool together to negotiate the best rates with the insurance companies. These groups would be similar to corporate group coverage, where there are no pre-existing condition limitations, and no one can be dropped.
IIRC that is what htey have done in Littleton, CO. Question is can you scale that up for NYC?


also you could add:

join military have medical/dental :D
LOL. Yeah my daughter just had surgery and Tri care (the secondary insurance) just laughed at me and said to take care of the bill my self. Thats another ting, so many in the public are ignorant. They think that Medicare / Medicaid / Tri-Care are wonderful examples of government run health care that works. Every time I hear that I get the heebie-geebies.

browningboy84
08-17-09, 11:01
Umm.....NO! How would you like to donate X numbers of hours per year without pay for what you do? I'm a paid paramedic and I spent THOUSANDS of hours in training and HUNDREDS of dollars paying for my EMS education. I consider my knowlege of EMS my INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY. If you wish to have me utilize my intellectual property to save your life...you're going to pay for it. Medical care should be no different.

Government run (county or municipal) EMS agencies collect on less than 20% of the calls that they bill for. Of that 20%, another percentage of bills do not get paid in full because of insurance companies. Emergency medical services NEED more authority to bill for trips. My department is severly underfunded as it is, and we loose thousands of dollars EVERY DAY to people who (a) abuse the EMS system and (b) don't pay their ambulance bills.

My suggestion for EMS abuse:
1) You call, "we" (paramedics) show up.
2) We decide whether or not you need a ride to the hospital in the ambulance or not. If you do, we'll take you...but you're getting a bill. If you don't we'll find alternate transportation for you...ie, call a cab.
3) If you ride with us, you get billed. If your insurance covers it, great. If not, you're responsible for the difference.
4) If you do not pay the bill, the total + interest gets added to your property tax. If you do not own property in that municipality (rent, live elsewhere, etc...) the county will place a lien on your home, car, etc....or send the bill to a collections agency.
5) If the bill goes to collection and is still not paid, your credit history will indicate this.
6) After 1 year of non-payment, a warrant goes out for your arrest. You get arrested, and are forced to pay the bill, plus interest and any collection charges, or you get thrown in jail for 1 month per every $100 outstanding.

I'm sick and tired of carting people to the hospital because they're drunk, stubbed a toe, or are homeless and want a meal. You can laugh, but it happens EVERY DAY in every EMS agency across the country. EMS abuse is probably one of the top 20 drains on local government funding. Making EMS free is just stupid.
As a paramedic as well, I agree with this assessment. 70% percent of our calls are complete bullshit, and it usually 15% of the patients that we see. We know their addresses by heart because we go to them over and over. They are a drain on society because of their lazyness.


I see the pro bono as a compromise for the tort reform. It works for the attorneys. Its also my intent to aim it at doctors, not EMTs. In fact I look at them as being part of fire rescue. Maye thats a mistake on my part. But its just an idea of trying to find a solution that will work with various compromises with the ultimate goal of keeping the government out of health care.
I dont know what type of work you do, but why dont you do work pro bono X amount of hours a year. EMT's and Medics dont make near what doctors do, but you want a MD who has spent 4 years in college, 4 years in medical school, then worked for less than 50K a year for 2-6 years while learning a specialty, all the while having to pay for 75K-250K in student loans that they incurred for going to medical school, to work for free???????? Dr's make what they do because they have NO ROOM FOR ERROR!!!!!!!! If they do mess up, they get sued and can lose their license if they really messed up. Think about it,man. This is so socialist in thinking it scares me. I want the best guy working on me if i need a Dr, and I dont want someone who is burnt out from all the govt's bullshit.

Debtors prisons aren't really allowed in the US anymore. It's been that way for LONG time, and isn't likely to change.

To add to the list of ideas:

Non-profit insurance cooperatives that allow large groups of people to pool together to negotiate the best rates with the insurance companies. These groups would be similar to corporate group coverage, where there are no pre-existing condition limitations, and no one can be dropped.

Think about this man. You do a crime, and go to jail, when you get out, you go on parole/probation. What happens if you dont pay your monthly parole/probation costs????? Answer: You GO BACK TO THE BIG HOUSE!!!!! Debtors prisons do exist if you owe the cops money!!!!! Look at the IRS!!!!!! They send you to a federal prison if you do not pay what they say you owe them!!!!!!!

I work 24 hours on duty, 24 hours on call, and 24 hours off. I go through this rotation every 72 hours. I will be damned if I am donating hours pro bono. The ambulance chasers are getting a cut of the winnings in the lawsuits. I do fire and ems and I risk my life enough without having to work pro bono. Like I said 15% of the patients account for 70% of the runs every year in our agency, and the majority of them are lazy, and sorry. Get them to get off of their ass, and work, and not be a drain on society. That will help our healthcare "crisis".