View Full Version : MSNBC poll
This pole is a great, all be it pleasent suprise to me. Its a poll concerning whether or not "In God We Trust" should be on our currency. However what suprised me is the overwhelming support for it and the news media site its on. See for yourself and vote. Im in favor of keeping it on the currency. Its the way the founders laid it and it should stay that way. Just my.02
ETA- the stuff in bold is my original post, I was wrong. And corrected
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10103521/
montanadave
08-17-09, 07:12
I think the "In God We Trust" motto on U.S. currency was added by the U.S. Treasury following several acts of Congress in the years immediately following the Civil War. It was not initiated by the founding fathers.
Sorry about that, I just assumed that it has been on our currency longer. I have some confederate money that I think has "In God We Trust" on it though. Ill have to check. Thanks for setting me strait, I need it every once in a while. But I still support it on our currency
I don't think it belongs on our currency, and I'm an Evangelical Christian.
The founders would have pitched a fit had they been around. The fact that it began during the greatest unholiness in our history (the Civil War, BTW, point of order, it actually first appeared on U.S. currency, not Confederate) says enough for me.
Our original de facto motto, E pluribus unum is the greatest testament we can give to our Creator.
The similar phrase "In God is our Trust" is in the last stanza of The Star Spangled Banner (written in 1814):
Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just,
And this be our motto: 'In God is our trust.'
And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave
Maybe US currency should say; "In God we Trust, all others pay cash" ;)
I don't think it belongs on our currency, and I'm an Evangelical Christian.
The founders would have pitched a fit had they been around. The fact that it began during the greatest unholiness in our history (the Civil War, BTW, point of order, it actually first appeared on U.S. currency, not Confederate) says enough for me.
Our original de facto motto, E pluribus unum is the greatest testament we can give to our Creator.
I'm not sure you know our founders as well as you think you do. They may not have included God on the currency but they included him everywhere else.
thopkins22
08-18-09, 10:15
I'm not sure you know our founders as well as you think you do. They may not have included God on the currency but they included him everywhere else.
It depends on which founders you're talking about. Were there some religious fanatics? Of course there were.
But if you want to talk Adams, Jefferson, Madison, Paine, and the like were all pretty much agnostic, never mind not wanting it as a part of government. Did most of them believe in the idea of God? Sure, but not the way most people would look at it today.
Hell, Jefferson created my favorite version of the New Testament by cutting all the hocus pocus parts out of it.
It shouldn't be on there, since it denotes a generic god. All this public "god" talk that goes on in the gov't is hardly Christian.
To thopkins22
You just can't help spewing your Christ hatred can you?
It depends on which founders you're talking about. Were there some religious fanatics? Of course there were.
But if you want to talk Adams, Jefferson, Madison, Paine, and the like were all pretty much agnostic, never mind not wanting it as a part of government. Did most of them believe in the idea of God? Sure, but not the way most people would look at it today.
Hell, Jefferson created my favorite version of the New Testament by cutting all the hocus pocus parts out of it.
Most of the signers were religious. People mistake Jefferson as not being religious because his main concern was that no one religion get preference over another. Many think he created the University of Virginia as secular. That is not true, he assured religious teachings - but of no single faith.
John Adams - "The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God."
Thomas Jefferson - "The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend all to the happiness of man.
The practice of morality being necessary for the well being of society, He [God] has taken care to impress its precepts so indelibly on our hearts that they shall not be effaced by the subtleties of our brain. We all agree in the obligation of the moral principles of Jesus and nowhere will they be found delivered in greater purity than in His discourses.
I am a Christian in the only sense in which He wished anyone to be: sincerely attached to His doctrines in preference to all others.
I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ.
James Madison - " I have sometimes thought there could not be a stronger testimony in favor of religion or against temporal enjoyments, even the most rational and manly, than for men who occupy the most honorable and gainful departments and [who] are rising in reputation and wealth, publicly to declare their unsatisfactoriness by becoming fervent advocates in the cause of Christ; and I wish you may give in your evidence in this way.
Robert Treat Paine - "
I desire to bless and praise the name of God most high for appointing me my birth in a land of Gospel Light where the glorious tidings of a Savior and of pardon and salvation through Him have been continually sounding in mine ears.
I am constrained to express my adoration of the Supreme Being, the Author of my existence, in full belief of His Providential goodness and His forgiving mercy revealed to the world through Jesus Christ, through whom I hope for never ending happiness in a future state.
I believe the Bible to be the written word of God and to contain in it the whole rule of faith and manners."
I credit all this information to wallbuilders.com. The original sources can be found there.
http://9x19mm.com/photoalbum/albums/userpics/threadend.jpg
BTW, if you meant Thomas Paine you are right - NOT a Christian.
http://9x19mm.com/photoalbum/albums/userpics/threadend.jpg
I don't see that. It's just a discussion. Everyone has his own opinion and a right to it. We are both Christians, how bad could we disagree? ;)
Oh, I see what you mean.
We are both Christians, how bad could we disagree? ;)
Oh, I see what you mean.
Dude, that was seriously funny. :cool:
This is a history of "IN GOD WE TRUST" on money and as mentioned in here also touching on it as the US Motto
http://www.treas.gov/education/fact-sheets/currency/in-god-we-trust.shtml
Dude, that was seriously funny. :cool:
I'm a part Irish Protestant how much troubles could I cause. ;)
Most of the signers were religious. People mistake Jefferson as not being religious because his main concern was that no one religion get preference over another. Many think he created the University of Virginia as secular. That is not true, he assured religious teachings - but of no single faith.
John Adams - "The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God."
Thomas Jefferson - "The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend all to the happiness of man.
Jefferson and Adams were Unitarian as were most of the "Christian" signers, so most wouldn't consider them a true Christian by the dogma of the evangelical movement (The whole Christ was God on earth thing). ;)
I'm not much on dogma. If you believe in Jesus (Christ) and follow his teachings you're a Christian in my simple mind.
I am a Christian, not devout - but militant.
Muslims believe Christ was a prophet but they don't believe he was God on earth (trinity) the only difference between a Muslim and a Unitarian is Mohamed. Unitarian's don't believe in the trinity, and the trinity is what defines Christian dogma.
Considering when and why it was added to currency, I would not have supported it being added in the first place. As I was born into a time where it's already on our currency, I support removing the slogan. It has no purpose being on currency, any more than "I like corn dogs." or "Boobies!" does.
-B
Muslims believe Christ was a prophet but they don't believe he was God on earth (trinity) the only difference between a Muslim and a Unitarian is Mohamed. Unitarian's don't believe in the trinity, and the trinity is what defines Christian dogma.
Well I guess I'm kinda like Jefferson in some of my beliefs. I never did get the holy trinty thing. But, that brings us back to "In God we Trust." It doesn't say "In Jesus we Trust. " That removes the question as whether we are a Christian nation to are we a nation of God.
thopkins22
08-18-09, 21:18
Sudden, quotes don't do much for me as I can find ones like these.
"The whole religious complexion of the modern world is due to the absence from Jerusalem of a lunatic asylum."Thomas Paine
"There are matters in the Bible, said to be done by the express commandment of God, that are shocking to humanity and to every idea we have of moral justice."Thomas Paine
"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."Thomas Paine
"Question with boldness even the existence of God; because if there be one, he must more approve the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."Thomas Jefferson
"The rights of conscience we never submitted, we could not submit. We are answerable for them to our God. The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg . . . . Reason and free inquiry are the only effectual agents against error."Thomas Jefferson
thopkins22
08-18-09, 21:22
It shouldn't be on there, since it denotes a generic god. All this public "god" talk that goes on in the gov't is hardly Christian.
To thopkins22
You just can't help spewing your Christ hatred can you?
No. I hate morality, God, liberty, making money, and having sex.:rolleyes:
Get a life...chances are pretty high that I've been in church more recently than you. I even just took a course on the Old Testament this summer. That shouldn't require me to put on blinders to history.
Hell, Jefferson created my favorite version of the New Testament by cutting all the hocus pocus parts out of it.
Believing in God but not in "hocus pocus" is pretty laughable.
Like a buddy from church says, "If you can believe Genesis 1:1 everything after that is easy."
The idea of the embodiment of God turning water into wine, healing the sick with a touch, etc. is not that hard to believe if you believe this same God has the power to create everything in the universe with a word.
Just my 2 cents.
;)
Well I guess I'm kinda like Jefferson in some of my beliefs. I never did get the holy trinty thing. But, that brings us back to "In God we Trust." It doesn't say "In Jesus we Trust. " That removes the question as whether we are a Christian nation to are we a nation of God.
We're neither a nation of God fearing believers, or atheist, we're a nation of free people (at least we're suppose to be).
All religion brought into politics has done is created more laws that limit our freedoms, and the same could be said for the other side. We should strive to maintain what was created, not alter it to fit what we personally feel is best for our own world view.
thopkins22
08-18-09, 23:11
Believing in God but not in "hocus pocus" is pretty laughable.
Like a buddy from church says, "If you can believe Genesis 1:1 everything after that is easy."
I think it simply means that you believe in a higher power and that the actual teachings of Jesus are the best lessons on how to be the best people we can be. It means that scientists learning that perhaps the earth was created over thousands or millions of years instead of six days. None of those ideas invalidate the notion of a God.
I think if Jefferson had to decided to take on the Old Testament, Genesis 1:1 would have met the chopping block.;)
I think it simply means that you believe in a higher power and that the actual teachings of Jesus are the best lessons on how to be the best people we can be. It means that scientists learning that perhaps the earth was created over thousands or millions of years instead of six days. None of those ideas invalidate the notion of a God.
I think if Jefferson had to decided to take on the Old Testament, Genesis 1:1 would have met the chopping block.;)
I always tell people I believe in the Big bang, God said bang and it was here:p I personally think if you believe part of the bible and not another part then you waist your time reading it. Thats what gripes my craw is selectively taking out of the bible what works for you. Thats why we have such tolerance for wrong doing. Too many people saying, "Me and God understand each other, it ok" Even though they know its wrong. Thats like taking what you dislike about the ar-15 platform and saying, "Ahhh, I just dont think that so, I dont believe that, Ill selectively take that out of my user manuel" If you believe that the bible is GOD'S written word then how do you discredit bits and peices you dont agree with? Just my .02 cents as well and none of the comments above in this are directed toward any specific group.
Just to put this out there, Make sure we dont start insulting cause thatll get this thread closed. Despite the fact that it would resemble TOS..... Just saying. I know that this subject can draw out some feelings (in myself especially) that can very quickly turn into mudslinging and "to hell with you" talk unless thought out first. Ive caught myself a few times already.......
Like I said thopkins22, a Christ hater through and through..
I don't put much stock in depraved idiots quoting other depraved idiots.
I have a life, thanks to Jesus Christ. But hey, let's not forget who started slinging the mud.
I think it simply means that you believe in a higher power and that the actual teachings of Jesus are the best lessons on how to be the best people we can be.
Of course my point was that "a higher power" is just ill-defined hocus pocus.
To take a book about God (a higher power) and then try to edit all the "hocus pocus" (read miracles: the case that Jesus is Lord, the whole point of the book) out of the book is actually quite insane.
It also seems very odd to me to advocate following the teachings of a man who claimed to be the son of God if you don't believe he was.
I believe Christ was, so I follow his teachings and call myself a Christian. If I thought he was a liar or insane I would not place him high on my list of who to emulate in my personal life.
As far as the basis of this thread, the motto "In God We Trust" on our money doesn't bother me, even if it is some ill-defined "higher power" hocus pocus, and would still be OK with it if I was an Atheist. I am also ok with all the Masonic symbols on our currency, even though I am not a Mason. The philosophical foundation of this country and our social contract is the idea of us being endowed with rights by our Creator, and the motto on our currency is just a little lip service to that idea.
Would we be better off if it said "In Government We Trust" on our money? I don't think so!
Muslims believe Christ was a prophet but they don't believe he was God on earth (trinity) the only difference between a Muslim and a Unitarian is Mohamed. Unitarian's don't believe in the trinity, and the trinity is what defines Christian dogma.
You mean Evangelical and/or tradition bound Christianity is bound by belief in the "Trinity", which is not found in the Bible but came from the various conferences held hundreds of years after Christ was crucified and died for us and his apostles were taken from the world.
I am not ragging on Evangelicals or Catholics or Lutherans/Methodists/Presbyterians or other traditional Christians on this matter. I have lots of respect for them and their faith in Christ and many of my friends are evangelicals. Just that to say someone is not Christian because he believes in Christ as the Divine Son of God and part of the Godhead but does not believe in the traditional concept of "Trinity" makes no sense at all.
Chad
thopkins22
08-19-09, 04:33
Like I said thopkins22, a Christ hater through and through..
I don't put much stock in depraved idiots quoting other depraved idiots.
I have a life, thanks to Jesus Christ. But hey, let's not forget who started slinging the mud.
:confused: You started slinging mud when you referred to me as a person who just can't help but to spew Christ hatred.
Absurd.
thopkins22
08-19-09, 04:51
To take a book about God (a higher power) and then try to edit all the "hocus pocus" (read miracles: the case that Jesus is Lord, the whole point of the book) out of the book is actually quite insane.
It also seems very odd to me to advocate following the teachings of a man who claimed to be the son of God if you don't believe he was.
It's a cold hard fact that many aspects of Christianity(and almost every other mainstream religion in recent history,) share much not only with one another but with the religions practiced before them. It's also a fact that the Bible we read today is only what was allowed to be taught and passed along.
Again, that doesn't invalidate everything in it, nor does it mean there's nothing to be gained by following it's teachings, it does mean that I don't have to believe Moses parted the seas with a walking stick. Perhaps I don't have to believe that Jesus literally rose from the dead after dying and going to hell for my sins to see the value in his life and teachings.
Perhaps I don't have to believe that Jesus literally rose from the dead after dying and going to hell for my sins to see the value in his life and teachings.
You don't have to believe to see the value, you have to believe to receive it.
That's a joke kinda, but not really.
My main point is I don't find it particularly intellectually compelling to take a book about miracles and remove the miracles to plagarize it into my personal philosophy on life. The fact Jefferson did that with part of the Bible diminishes him in my mind. You acted like it was really cool.
I've said everything I have to say on the issue of nominally religious mottos on our currency.
thopkins22, you must have missed the part where I said Thomas Paine was NOT a Christian. Jefferson was more interested in religious freedom than in religion itsself. He did however follow the teachings of Jesus as he new they were good.
Under the rule of King George the king had control of the bible. As soon as we were free our first bible printed here was printed by Congress for the use in schools.
The whole point was to not have the gov support one religion over another or have a certain religion of church control the government.
thopkins22
And who was it that used this thread to attack the veracity of Christ and His apostles by referring to the miracles described as "Hocus Pocus", no doubt neutral words, right? Don't you realize that you just called Jesus Christ a DELUDED LIAR? If you called my mother a whore it would have been better.
This could have been avoided if YOU just stayed with the original topic, but NO, you had to take the opportunity to attack.............and I feel compelled to counter.
I'm out before this thread is closed. bye bye
thopkins22
08-19-09, 11:07
thopkins22
And who was it that used this thread to attack the veracity of Christ and His apostles by referring to the miracles described as "Hocus Pocus", no doubt neutral words, right? Don't you realize that you just called Jesus Christ a DELUDED LIAR? If you called my mother a whore it would have been better.
This could have been avoided if YOU just stayed with the original topic, but NO, you had to take the opportunity to attack.............and I feel compelled to counter.
Just pointed out what some of our most prominent founders believed, which is in fact pertinent to the discussion at hand. I didn't call Jesus Christ "a deluded liar." At worst I called those who handled the gospel after the life of Jesus liars.
"In extracting the pure principles which he taught, we should have to strip off the artificial vestments in which they have been muffled by priests, who have travestied them into various forms, as instruments of riches and power to themselves. We must dismiss the Platonists and Plotinists, the Stagyrites and Gamalielites, the Eclectics, the Gnostics and Scholastics, their essences and emanations, their logos and demiurges, aeons and daemons, male and female, with a long train of … or, shall I say at once, of nonsense. We must reduce our volume to the simple evangelists, select, even from them, the very words only of Jesus, paring off the amphibologisms into which they have been led, by forgetting often, or not understanding, what had fallen from him, by giving their own misconceptions as his dicta, and expressing unintelligibly for others what they had not understood themselves. There will be found remaining the most sublime and benevolent code of morals which has ever been offered to man. I have performed this operation for my own use, by cutting verse by verse out of the printed book, and arranging the matter which is evidently his, and which is as easily distinguishable as diamonds in a dunghill. The result is an octavo of forty-six pages, of pure and unsophisticated doctrines." Thomas Jefferson in a letter to John Adams.
Sudden, I agree with your last post and would only add that there were many more rulers other than King George who had control not only over distribution of Bibles but of the texts included.
Back on the topic at hand...we had better put trust in God to protect our currency as our politicians and bureaucrats are doing a terrible job. ;) Beyond that what purpose does it serve? Does it really honor God or make us a nation of God to have him on currency? Right next to Abraham Lincoln who killed hundreds of thousands of Americans? There's more to being a nation of God than saying so on a coin....
Sooooo.........the writers of the NT got their morals somewhat right, but all that miracle stuff has to go? I see, the apostle John was ok on morals, but a deluded liar on miracles. And this is sound reasoning?
thopkins22
08-19-09, 12:30
Let it go...all I'm pointing out is that many of our founding fathers were not only lackadaisical Christians, that in fact many were considered heretics by the church. For whatever reason you don't seem to be able to handle that...fine, continue to believe that all the founders were either in the church every time the doors opened or were terrible people who wish they could have killed Jesus themselves. Is your faith that delicate?
Whether or not I agree with them is really immaterial. What does matter to the conversation is whether or not they'd want God on the currency. I maintain that they would not. I also maintain that it's not a big deal if it does remain. I see much more troubling mingling of church and state than the word God here and there.
Let it go? Why should I do that? Since you keep making assinine assertions, I think it's ok to counter them.
Fragile faith? Nope, still a believer.
I've known for quite some time that the founders of the country were humanists. The Christians were grossly inconsistent, trying to amalgamate Christianity, and humanism. Complete folly. I voted to get rid of all this pluralistic governmental god talk because from a Biblical point of view it is dishonest.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.