View Full Version : Bug Out Vest
The other thread about how many mags one shoul carry if SHTF got me thinking about carrying fewer mags on my FLC vest and what else I could carry instead for a SHTF(sorry to keep using this term, I'm getting sick of it too) on a vest. This resulted in me think about building something along the lines of what one might call a bug out vest(best name I could come up with). My idea is something that carries most of you survival necesities, but would always be with you, versus a pack that can't be worn while driving or may have to be jettisoned for whatever reason. That way you have enough stuff to keep you going for at least a day or two. So far all I can come up with would be a setup with the following.
1. The vest itself
2. A way to carry 3-4 m16 mags
3. A good flashlight
4. A knife and or multitool
5. At least 2 quarts of water(proabably more?)
6. A couple MREs
7. A FAK
8. Other little odds&ends one might need, like a lighter, spare batteries, etc.
Does this sound like a good idea? I was thinking about picking up a few more of those vests so that I could have one for different situations and rifles, but I'm tyring to decide if this is a good idea so I can line up other gear I'll need for this.
I hope this post made sense, I'm probably to tired to be posting complete thougths.
The more I read these threads the more I think the people that hate firearms have a reason to hate guns.
Seriously, has anyone used more than a mag in self defense since the civil war?
If you are going to plan anything please make it water/food, and essential things. Im not saying drop your guns but you can spend your ideas and money on other things that will help more than having "500 mags full next to my bed".
The more I read these threads the more I think the people that hate firearms have a reason to hate guns.
Seriously, has anyone used more than a mag in self defense since the civil war?
If you are going to plan anything please make it water/food, and essential things. Im not saying drop your guns but you can spend your ideas and money on other things that will help more than having "500 mags full next to my bed".
105 shots in 2 minutes.
http://www.afn.org/~guns/ayoob.html
1. The vest itself
Okay, no problem here. I suppose this could easily be a coat/jacket, depending on the climate.
2. A way to carry 3-4 m16 mags
3 or 4 loaded rifle mags, all the time, anytime you're wearing the vest/coat? I'd probably prefer 2 pistol mags and leave the rifle mags in the car or BOB.
3. A good flashlight
I can agree with this, plus a spare set or two of CR123 cells
4. A knife and or multitool
Again, no question here.
5. At least 2 quarts of water(proabably more?)
That is at least 4 pounds of water... which is also rather bulky when bottled. Honestly, I might keep a single .5 liter bottle in my jacket pocket, but I can't imagine going around all the time with a half gallon of water strapped to my person.
6. A coupl MREs
Wow. MREs are REALLY bulky - you expect these to fit in a vest? I would think that a few powerbar/granola bar/cereal bars would be a more likely option. If you really want to maximize calories/volume you can get some of the mainstay rations.
7. A FAK
Nothing wrong here; I always carry a minimal FAK.
8. Other little odds&ends one might need, like a lighter, spare batteries, etc.
Sure, I don't see anything wrong with this either - spare change, lighter, sharpie marker, etc. are all things that people keep in their pockets that would prove very useful in certain situations.
Looking at your list, I figure you expect to carry upwards of 15 pounds of extra gear about your body every day... because after all, isn't the point of EDC gear or a get home/bug out bag to have the stuff with you when you need it? Or am I totally missing the point here? The general concept is fine, but I think you might be better served to think along the lines of an ultralight hiker vs. an infantryman.
Of course, if you are simply keeping the vest stashed somewhere and this is just for easy carry, then I see no reason why you can't load up all you want - presuming you are willing and able to carry it.
1. The vest itself
Okay, no problem here. I suppose this could easily be a coat/jacket, depending on the climate.
2. A way to carry 3-4 m16 mags
3 or 4 loaded rifle mags, all the time, anytime you're wearing the vest/coat? I'd probably prefer 2 pistol mags and leave the rifle mags in the car or BOB.
3. A good flashlight
I can agree with this, plus a spare set or two of CR123 cells
4. A knife and or multitool
Again, no question here.
5. At least 2 quarts of water(proabably more?)
That is at least 4 pounds of water... which is also rather bulky when bottled. Honestly, I might keep a single .5 liter bottle in my jacket pocket, but I can't imagine going around all the time with a half gallon of water strapped to my person.
6. A coupl MREs
Wow. MREs are REALLY bulky - you expect these to fit in a vest? I would think that a few powerbar/granola bar/cereal bars would be a more likely option. If you really want to maximize calories/volume you can get some of the mainstay rations.
7. A FAK
Nothing wrong here; I always carry a minimal FAK.
8. Other little odds&ends one might need, like a lighter, spare batteries, etc.
Sure, I don't see anything wrong with this either - spare change, lighter, sharpie marker, etc. are all things that people keep in their pockets that would prove very useful in certain situations.
Looking at your list, I figure you expect to carry upwards of 15 pounds of extra gear about your body every day... because after all, isn't the point of EDC gear or a get home/bug out bag to have the stuff with you when you need it? Or am I totally missing the point here? The general concept is fine, but I think you might be better served to think along the lines of an ultralight hiker vs. an infantryman.
Of course, if you are simply keeping the vest stashed somewhere and this is just for easy carry, then I see no reason why you can't load up all you want - presuming you are willing and able to carry it.
I don't think I explained this one fully. My idea wasn't to wear it every day, but instead keep it with a BOB as a supplement that could be kept on your person in the event that you need to leave. I was already having some troubles justifying the concept myself and I figured I would throw the idea out there to see what others thought.
I probably am to optimistic about my plans for carrying that much food and water. I'll consider cutting back on the food, but considering my location I'm having troubles cutting back on water very much.
I don't think I explained this one fully. My idea wasn't to wear it every day, but instead keep it with a BOB as a supplement that could be kept on your person in the event that you need to leave. I was already having some troubles justifying the concept myself and I figured I would throw the idea out there to see what others thought.
I probably am to optimistic about my plans for carrying that much food and water. I'll consider cutting back on the food, but considering my location I'm having troubles cutting back on water very much.
Aah, gotya - it is supplemental to your existing BOB. If that is the case, then I think you are on track. How do you plan on carrying the water? I suspect that standard 20 oz or 16.9 oz bottles would fit fine in a double mag pouch, but you might want to look into a camelbak or other hydration system. You would be able to carry a larger volume of drinking water with less bulk.
OP-I have a Maxpedition Versipack set up in a similar manner...
+ full size handgun/mags
- MRE and water
A bigger version(i have the Fatboy) may allow an MRE or two and some water?
spend your ideas and money on other things that will help more than having "500 mags full next to my bed".
:rolleyes:
I thought the OP wrote "3-4 mags" for a possible disaster scenario?
The more I read these threads the more I think the people that hate firearms have a reason to hate guns.
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s277/jermwarfare_2007/blue.jpg
Outlander Systems
08-17-09, 21:15
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=29482
"The new kit will consist of what I personally feel, for my individual needs, the absolute bare minimum for trying to stay 6' atop soil. This is a test. This is only a test. That being stated, I'm curious to see if I can squeeze shelter/cooking/firemaking/water-procurement into an extremely small, lightweight package, instead of turtle-backing. It will definitely allow for extended ranges, faster speeds, and infinitely more mobility.
The system I'm rigging together may prove interesting, and theoretically, I think it's jam-up, but, I'm going to have to field test it to verify. Should be fun.
For this outing, I'm nixing everything but the utmost minimal of what I see as essentials. "
Kit, Interdiction, Black Bear, MARK 2, MOD 1
http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/5850/99893538.jpg
It's an older picture, and every piece of mobile "survival stuff" I've got is either stuffed into my CFP-90, or scattered about the house.
I recently moved, and my gear is so disheveled it's disgraceful.
I'll try and sling up some pics of the kit I'm working with now in the near future. The vest is a ratass old Blackhawk Omega.
The kit is nothing more than stuff NOT being used for its designed/intended purpose. The buttpack is attached to the webbing on the back of the vest, only to raise the center of gravity. Since the vest bears the load, it's a lot more comfortable than a standard backpack-based system.
It comes down to mobility or utility. I personally feel that overpacking will be more of a hindrance than a help. It really depends on your personal "worst-case scenario".
The vest-based system allows more mobility than a backpack-based setup. The backpack-based setup allows you to carry a lot more equipment. It depends on what the intended purpose of getting out of Dodge is. If I had an EOD vest laying around, or a MOLLE vest, it would be a better system; however my current MOLLE vest is used for shooting. Truth be told, if things go to hell in a handbasket, I'll have to seriously debate whether I would even think about bringing a long gun. Less is sometimes more, and the avoidance of confrontation is the best course of action. Mobility affords one the opportunity to decrease the odds of getting caught with your ass out, if you're following me.
If you were forced to bug out on foot, and your goal was to set up some sort of base-camp, and you were with a small group, then I would most likely advocate a backpack/larger system.
If you're in it alone, and things are nastier than they've been since 800 A.D., I'm going to go with the vest system.
My reasons are simple:
If you're bugging out on foot, things are probably bad; REAL bad. By lugging 100lbs of kit, you're only going to:
1) Expend more calories
2) Lose more fluids
3) Eventually run out of supplies
I will in no way, shape, fashion, or form, profess to be an expert. This is all experimental/learning stuff for my own steps upward on Maslow's rungs. That being said, we've got to be pragmatic about the situation. If things are bad enough out there, that you're forced to scrape a living off of rocks, a Jetboil, 10 mags, and 24lbs of MREs are only postponing the inevitable:
We either eat dirt literally or figuratively. In that, at some point we have to make do with wild-edibles, primitive fire-making, scavenging/foraging, hunting, etc. or we're quite totally hosed. Rather than kit our way into surviving, we're better served by getting out there, and making the best of a bad situation, when we've got cozy beds to go home to, and a pantry/fridge full of treats.
I'm not attempting to come across as a hard ass, because I am most certainly not a hard ass, but facts is facts.
In an "OMFG, THE Apocalypse is at Hand" situation, tools are about the only thing worth a damn at that point, since all else is merely a short postponement of one's dirtnap.
Now, on the other hand, if your BOB is functioning as a Get-Home-Bag, or a get to your bugout retreat on foot bag, then we're entering totally different turf altogether.
Since that topic will most likely be the more common situation, and one that I'm also incorporating into my contingency planning, its already being discussed in the broader areas of this sub-forum. The vest-option, is something I consider to be the lightest-weight, highest-mobility, most challenging path to take. Especially, if you're working with gear that isn't optimally configured for this sort of loadout.
The biggest benefit, thus far, to me is a comfortable, even displacement of load, making longer distances easier to tackle, with less caloric burn.
If I eventually go with this configuration as my go-to bug-out option, I would probably want to go with a MOLLE vest, so that large portions of the front aren't wasted as mine is now. That being said, it's mildly hypocritical to say that, since the more pockets there are, the more likely I am to fill them with stuff.
A vicious cycle...
;)
I'm still trying to figure out the best type/method of fishing gear to take. Fishing, to me, is a viable way to acquire some grub. Snares, small and easy to transport. Rods are another animal. Maybe just some line, hooks, and lure.
Outlander Systems
08-17-09, 22:21
I'm considering a 550-cord net, and a stick to mount it on.
Net + Patience = Dinner
In all seriousness, I've tried to figure out how to put together a compact rod for fishing, short of Stick + Line = Lunch
A frog-gigging trident takes up almost no space, and, again, requires our good friend Mr. Stick to mount it to. It might even be possible to spear fish with it. That's well beyond my ken, but it would be interesting. Frogs are way easier to stab than a fish.
gruntinhusaybah
08-18-09, 03:41
SoDak, I like where you are going with the vest idea and have done the same with a TT MAV.
I'm not sure what type of SHTF scenario you are trying to prepare for or where you live. But the Idea of having something that can be worn comfortably and carry whatever you may need to keep going/fighting is a good one.
I live in eathquake and fire country, if there was a massive earthquake, things could turn ugly really fast(NOLA/katrina) and I'd want to have as many mags as I could effectivel carry and still be mobile. For me this is 8-12 +2 on the gun.
-instead of carrying so much water think about a purifying system, I like aquamira as it is light and very effective.
-in place of MRE's think like an ultralight backpacker, freeze dried, dehydrated foods are lightweight and easy to cook. And stoves and pots are getting lighter and lighter. IF you're talking about long term survival think about a .22 and a slew of rounds
-If you're trying to get rescued a signal mirror, flares, and fire starting goods
-IFAK is a must, go with as much first aid gear as you can, that you know how to use
think about the area you live/work in, do you commute? Does it snow? Tornado country? Hurricanes? Earthquakes? Fires? Mudslides? Flashfloods? Or are you preparing for the 2legged SHTF? OR both?
Consider these things and some I'm sure I missed, and plan accordingly. Think about what you really need, and what will keep you alive. If you live in NOLA, I'd ditch everything but the water, and load up on mags.
I bought a 5.11 Tactical vest ( http://www.lapolicegear.com/5tave.html )just in case I'm seperated from my B.O.B.
It stays in the car with my other gear. I think it will fullfill your needs. Alltoids tin fishing kit, Survival straw, emergency blanket, compass,fire kit,multi tool, you get the idea. 2 pockets on the back for water bottles. I got the khaki , not looking so tactical may avoid some troubles.
Thanks for the imput guys. You've given me some ideas and better dircetion on this matter.
BTW if any of you guys are looking for a cheap molle vest, ghilliesuits.com is listing surplus FLC vests for $7.25 that are supposed to be new(I called and asked). I ended up getting 4 and they should be here on friday, so if you guys can hang on until then, I can give a report on these. I'm guessing they are just like the ones I got from sportsmansguide, but considering they were that cheap, I want to give them a good going over.
edmorseiii
08-19-09, 18:47
i like this idea, if it were low profile enough you could wear a large Carhart (sp?) jacket over it keeping out of the plain sight.
maybe if it were integrated with one of the larger blackhawk or camelback carriers, with the larger utility pouches you could fit quite a few meal replacement bars, and carry 100oz of water at the same time. then still have the molle across the front and shoulder straps.
My FLC vests form ghilliesuits.com came today. No surprises thankfully. They are NIW FLCs in desert camo from SDS that were made on 7/05. They are just like the ones from sportsmansguide which I guess is good, especially since these cost less. I don't think these are the greatest vests, but I don't think they can be beat for $7.25. So if anyone has been looking for a cheap molle vest to try out for whatever reason, I think one of these would be a decent place to start.
Here's a good thread from arfcom about these. It's got me thinking about dying a few of them green.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=10&t=270564
I think it is an outstanding idea. Didn't the idea of the tactical vest spawn from the old Army/Navy survival vest? So evidently there has got to be some merit to it. Right?
But...
The tactical vest is pretty cool, but IMO limits your capability. I recommend keep everything modular and PALS/MOLLE compatible. I have a few chest rigs and plate carriers and a good duty belt that works with a Molle battle belt. Backpacks, rucksacks, purses... :p Sorry, shoulder bags, should be Molle compatible. This will allow you to set your gear up the way you want.
One thing I do disagree on is the idea of using a purse... Darn, sorry again, shoulder bag as a BOB. I have had a few and when loaded, bind on the neck, pull gear to one side and overall are extremely uncomfortable to use. I have carried significantly heavier loads with a pack with a fraction of the shoulder fatigue.
That was my 2 cents.
ColdDeadHands
08-24-09, 08:26
OP-I have a Maxpedition Versipack set up in a similar manner...
+ full size handgun/mags
- MRE and water
A bigger version(i have the Fatboy) may allow an MRE or two and some water?
:rolleyes:
I thought the OP wrote "3-4 mags" for a possible disaster scenario?
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s277/jermwarfare_2007/blue.jpg
I second the Maxpedition Jumbo Versipack. Holds an amazing amount of stuff. In mine I have:
Handgun
2 Spare HG Mags
2 AR Mags
Some Food from the Costco Emergency Food Bucket
1 Liter Nalgene Bottle
Lighter
Magnesium Fire Starter
Vaseline trenched cotton balls
Compass
Swiss Army Knife
Emergency Blanket
Signal Mirror
A few "wet ones"
Light Stick
Surefire 6PL
Water Purification Tabs
N95 Mask
I'm still looking for a small med pouch that fits on the molle attachment point on the Jumbo...
I have the "kit" but no intention bug-out if anything the kit will help me get home where I will Bug-In.
I have some thoughts on the matter. If anyone cares I was a SERE instructor for almost 4 years for the military, and still teach in certain capacities to this day. I also own a company that sees a shit ton of gear of all descriptions and missions. I also have a job that requires me to remain low profile in a semi and non permissive environment.
I think carrying a bunch of gear in any sort of military fashion is a poor choice. I would much rather look inconspicuous than invite questions from ANYONE, good or bad.
One concept to think about is the ability to escalate or deescalate as the situation dictates. If you look like you're ready to get into a fight, guess what's probably going to happen?? Being prepared for a fight, but avoiding one, seems to me to be a better plan.
I think the vest concept has significant merit, but as a layering system. I wouldn't limit it to just a vest as some jackets or pullovers might work as well or better. It should work in conjunction with, and compliment, the things you have on your person everyday. It should also allow you to layer over it, with a backpack, shoulder bag, or even a vehicle. That's right, your vehicle might assume the role of your "third line" especially if you have a family.
I think with those parameters in mind I wouldn't worry much about water, but maybe water purification. If I were to carry water in a vest it would probably only be a liter or so.
Being so heavy on mags on this particular layer might not be best.
I wouldn't carry much food at all. I would "maybe" have one or two bars, specifically ones that do well in heat or cold.
Everything else you listed looks decent, but I would maybe consider a prepaid phone and/or card, and maybe an inexpensive GPS or compass.
All this talk about traps, snares, and fishing makes me question how realistic some of you are. have you guys actually tried to set snares and get food?? How about fishing with a survival kit?? That shit takes time and training. We're talking about being mobile and getting to somewhere we need to be, right?? **** some fishing and snares. Take a couple Clif bars and carry on. I'm not saying that shit doesn't have a place in survival, just not in the role the vest would fill.
Having a mask on this layer probably isn't necessary either. In the bag or trunk, yes.
I would also consider building multiple vests and having them all set up the same. Leave one in each car, one at work on the back of the chair, etc. Even if it seems redundant it gives you the ability to condense vests to one, or give one to your wife, friend, etc.
I'll throw something together and shoot some pictures to see if it gives anyone any ideas.
ColdDeadHands
08-25-09, 06:59
I agree with being low profile, here in Houston you couldn't layer clothing to hide the vest...way to hot. That's why I chose the Versipack, I have one for me and one for my wife.
Thanks for information zushwa. I'm interested to see your ideas on this subject.
One quick question if you don't mind me asking. One of the reasons I was interested in carrying a few quarts of water is that the area where I live has a decent amount of above ground water sources. The potential problem is that it is mostly in the form of stock dams. I was under the impression that if it's water that livestock uses that it's going to be dificult to treat. What's the real story on this?
Josh, great post, especially this.
All this talk about traps, snares, and fishing makes me question how realistic some of you are. have you guys actually tried to set snares and get food?? How about fishing with a survival kit?? That shit takes time and training. We're talking about being mobile and getting to somewhere we need to be, right?? **** some fishing and snares. Take a couple Clif bars and carry on. I'm not saying that shit doesn't have a place in survival, just not in the role the vest would fill.
That fatbody fruitcake Andrew Zimmern from Bizarre Foods did a survival camp one night. Watching him stumble around trying to trap fish and get water instantly made me think "he must be from the internet!"
Some of us actually live in the country and do set snares, fish, hunt, camp, backpack, etc.:) Setting a snare is about as easy as it could get. Finding the game path is the harder part.:p Guess it depends on how long it will take one to get to where you're going. Week? 2 weeks? Month? Cliff bars aren't going to cut it past several days. Snares can be quite small. Fishing line and hooks take up almost no room. I can pop some purification tabs, a couple of snares, and a fishing setup in one pocket; with room left over for my compass. I'm ready to eat and roll.
It's the same old issue with all discussions like this. A lot is dependent on area of operations, goals, envisioned "shit" that is hitting what "fan", etc.
Even if snares, traps, fishing, etc. are "easy" for someone, they still take time.
rob- Yep. Depends upon the who, what, when, where, and why. OP said a Bug Out vest so I look at it as a vest to keep in the car. At home, when it's time to Bug Out, setup would be different b/c I'm going to be carrying more than just a vest(if we are on foot). I like to hunt, fish, and camp so using these items are skills I started learning almost as soon as I could walk.
Are you on foot? How many with you? In a car? In a truck? Where are you going? Who/what will you have to go through, around, over, etc. So many variables. I see the vest as something kept in the car or used on a spartan camping trip.
Andrew Zimmerman-doubt he would last very long if he really had to make it.
PA PATRIOT
08-25-09, 19:48
Working in a major city I have the opportunity to talk with Crackheads, Robbers, Muggers and the general scum of the street every day. One question I always ask is why they selected the particular victim they just robbed. I always seem to get the same answer, "They looked like they had something to take."
I feel during a true disaster carrying shoulder bags, back packs or other visible items will only draw attention your way when your trying to travel under the radar of the above mention scum.
Everyone here I'M sure if you become desperate enough will do acts you would never consider to survive so you have to ask yourself the following question, What would you look for in a person to make you take the chance of relieving him of his supplies. The answer you arrive at is not how you would want to look while traveling during a SHTF event.
Working in a major city I have the opportunity to talk with Crackheads, Robbers, Muggers and the general scum of the street every day. One question I always ask is why they selected the particular victim they just robbed. I always seem to get the same answer, "They looked like they had something to take."
I feel during a true disaster carrying shoulder bags, back packs or other visible items will only draw attention your way when your trying to travel under the radar of the above mention scum.
Everyone here I'M sure if you become desperate enough will do acts you would never consider to survive so you have to ask yourself the following question, What would you look for in a person to make you take the chance of relieving him of his supplies. The answer you arrive at is not how you would want to look while traveling during a SHTF event.
This is a great point. One that I have thought about before. And the best answers that I could come up with, depended heavily on Robs earlier point of how much of and what kind of shit is hitting what fan.
I plan on traveling through rural countryside at night. Yes, there would be others thinking the same, but much less than on normally heavily traveled routes.
Bug out EARLY before the masses think to. Bug out through terrain most avoid. Be prepared for the few we encounter. Having lived in/packed in/traveled in/ hunted in rural areas, I feel we can travel them in a TEOTWAWKI situation. I regularly exercise, lift, pack, and camp so I think I could do it if necessary. I can nav. open/wooded country and a compass and maps I already have will allow us to nav. A well-appointed vest could make a huge diff. if caught somewhere other than home.
So I had this big ass post typed up and something went to shit and it went bye bye. Here are some of the highlights, along with some responses to the newer posts.
You guys have hit most of the deciding factors on the head. There are tons of variables, so we need to decide what we want to accomplish. In the last few posts we've seen that in this conversation alone there is someone in a major city, someone in southern Texas, someone in Florida, and someone in the middle of bugger-eater land. All of our goals and expectations might be different, but I don't think so as it related to this piece of gear and what we're trying to accomplish (big picture). We all want something light and easy to wear/use that offers something easy to grab, and facilitates our safe movement from point A to point B. Is that broad enough to cover all of us?? I will also say working with, and supporting other equipment would be a benefit as well, right??
OK, I think we can all agree that having gear, conducting yourself, and limiting your movement to avoid contact with unknown personnel is probably best for our well being. We don't necessarily want to be a hermit, we just want to make contact on our terms. How are we sounding so far?
What don't we expect a vest or a bag to do?? Sustain us for weeks?? Fight a small army?? Provide for the entire family??
Within OUR OWN expected circumstances we need to decide what we need. For me, I can't post on here from just my perspective. I have circumstances, equipment, and training that others might not. I try to take that into consideration when making recommendations on gear loadout.
One of the reasons I don't recommend fishing and snares is because of time and training. If you already know how to trap, fish, and snare then you're right, it doesn't take up much space. It does take TIME. A good rule of thumb is 10 snares for one critter and 24 hours is a good amount of time to diffuse the human smell from the snares and even give yourself a fighting chance to catch said critter. That, to me, is a long time. Fishing sounds pretty easy, right?? First there's the act of fishing, which under the best circumstances guys have trouble doing, and since we're talking fresh water fish I'm assuming no one wants to do sushi, so we have to prep and cook the fish. That means a fire, which isn't always the best idea. It all takes time and effort. How much time and effort does that take compared to throwing in a few high calorie bars? The skills are great to have, but in the parameters of MOVING I just don't think the emphasis should be on those particular survival skills. How about training in land navigation and doing some cardio?? I'm sure people will say that's bullshit and I'm sure there are guys that have had better success, but they would be the 1%'ers.
If our mission for this kit is to safely move from point A to point B then I'm going to do it as fast as possible. I also often see people carrying kits with all this shit in them and they don't have a clue how to use it. It's like it's a security blanket. As long as my altoids kit is in my cargo pocket I'm fine in the jungle for weeks. Yeah, right. I can think of 10 items that most people MUST HAVE and they can't use effectively.
So back to the question about water. Water is always a point of contention. I'm in a semi-permissive and sometimes non permissive environment with water not suitable for drinking and I'd still only carry about a liter in a garment or small bag. But I also stay hydrated and have water in my third line and vehicle, as well as water filtration, purification, and storage on my second line.
Just so we're clear, I'm all for having plenty of food, water, shelter, meds, comms, and weapons. I'm just not going to hump all of it at once. This particular type of garment or small bag I am more concerned about moving fast from somewhere that doesn't have the above items, to somewhere that does.
This turned into a relatively long post. In reality we should be talking about "bug out basics" in another thread, but it has validity here too.
Sorry for being long winded. I kinda like the subject. :)
Later,
Great post Josh. Especially the bit about the cardio. I've caused myself trouble here many times harping on that subject, so I'll leave it alone other than that.
Booger eating land- Haven't seen it, only heard of it; elusive; think that's a Yankee thing.:D
rob- Not sure why anyone would give you a hard time about stressing cardio, or fitness in general. I can't see how anyone with any sort of common sense would try to argue physical fitness would not be a crucial factor in a bug out scenario; in so many diff. ways.
Since I received my stamp and 6933, I've been running around the land carrying the gun and some mags as well as practicing simply running, moving, etc. with it in a ready position. It is much harder than I thought it would be and I'm in good cardio shape. I've thrown on a loaded pack, carried the gun around, and it takes getting used to as well as being a serious physical exertion. I don't think most people realize how difficult land nav. would be with a full load. I'm thinking some type of bug out vest as well as a pack so we could ditch the packs if we had to(getting in to it and need to haul ass, etc.) and still have some needed gear.
I think physical conditioning and training with your gear is crucial. Along the same lines as stock/store what you normally eat.
All good posts but here is something else to consider. IMO there are two types of bug out vets. The one that you use to get from work to your house and from your house to your zombie proof bunker. Which one do you want to outfit and how?
HES- Alright, now you've gone and done it.;) Looks like we'll need to start a couple of more threads to deal with specific vests for specific situations. I'm in. Never hurts to think, consider, test, and plan.
Josh,
If you can, as you mentioned, post some pics of the "vest" concept you invision as a low pro, point a to b type set up. I would like to see that. Sounds like you might do something along the same lines as I would.
In general...
About low visbility and maintaining a low profile...it doesn't matter how you carry a load out. Whether it be vest or bug out bag of some kind, if you have a rifle or shotgun in your hand, you are bound to get someones attention, whether they be good guys or bad. While having a concealed vest have some merits, it isn't necessarily needed or even usefull with a visible long gun present. Attention will be drawn to the gun itself first, not the load carriage system.
I know someone is going to bring up low pro rifle carry bags...:)
The low pro rifle carry bags...a cool concept, but nothing screams gun today like multicam. :D Make sure they are low profile if that is what you are trying to achieve. By no means tacticool, a simple folding chair bag lined with a piece of the old foam sleeping pad will work for medium sized guns.
Pros and cons aside, during bad times if I had to be on foot from a vehicle, or outside the residence, I would go with a light weight vest set up. The TT two piece mav is great for this. The issue or surplus FLC's would also work fine. The FLC's are an effective and inexpensive way to have multiple vests set up and stashed in vehicles or wherever.
I'm still playing around with the layout but I'll get some pic's up tonight of what I'm thinking so far.
03humpalot
08-28-09, 06:57
Zushwa dude, great points.
I once spent about 22 days with 2 MRE's and a rabbit for chow,humping all over the sierra's(Im a hunter,country boy raised kid)and i ****ing starved to death. Lost 26 pounds in less than a month when i was in the best shape of my life.
I dont ever care to repeat that experience.
Some lessons that i learned...
1.) Trapping and snaring with field expedient rigged traps and snares...yeah i lost 26 pounds.
2.) Fishing...yeah i lost 26 pounds in PRIME German brown habbitat.
3.) After the first 4 days i dumped every ****ing piece of gear that didnt have a serial number on it out of my ruck/kit.
4.) Hunting ( a lot of "1 box of cartridges a year" hunters think they are going to feed their families by hunting during SHTF) you guys have any idea how many energy/calories you are going to expend trying to whack bambie? Especially i you have just done a long overland movement with minimal chow and dealing with all the other chores required to sustain life on a dialy basis?
I guess my point is that yes it is VITAL to know how to hunt/process game/fish/purify water/etc but dont rely completely on your ability to do so in a real situation. Bring enough food/water/supplies with you to get to your bug out spot QUICKLY. THEN set about improving security/upgrading shelter/prepping a food source(S)/finding a reliable water source etc.
Your strength/and ability to handle complex tasks will wane rapidly when you arent getting 3 squares a day and sleeping in clean sheets.
Have both a bug in plan,and a bug out plan and the supplies necessary to accomplish both onhand.
My plan is to invade Idaho if im stateside or Iran if it gets crazy over here ;)
Beat Trash
08-28-09, 09:41
Zushwa,
Great post.
The more I thought about it, the more I think I may be living in the capital of Booger Eater Land (no you don't want to see what their flag looks like).
I agree that the needs of a bug out vest would vary depending on the individual's AO, and the nature of the SHTF event. I do not think this can be a "one size fits all" thing, many of us might have different needs from a bug out vest.
I have long ago given up the idea of living off of the land hunting bunnies, bugs and rats. I have no desire to become a refugee. If forced to bug out, I plan on taking a nice leisurely drive to one of my BO locations.
But being the eternal pessimist, I also have a plan for when that plan goes to sh*t, and a back up plan for that one, and so on...
I'm a former cancer patient, now cancer free in recovery for the last 2 years. I only bring this up because I now appreciate being able to go out and jog every morning (Mon - Fri, I take the weekends off, I'm not THAT hard core any more). I do this because I still remember not being able to walk a block, while going through chemo/radiation treatments.
I feel that one of the best things an individual can do as far as survival and preparedness is to go get a physical. Listen to your doctor. he might actually know what he's talking about. If he thinks a few pounds need to go, then get away from the computer on a regular basis and get into shape! I am not attempting to sound like a jerk, but if you can not see the spare magazines on your belt due to your overhanging belly, that's what's known as a clue.
Sorry if I strayed from the topic a bit...
Humpalot- Sounds like you had a bad experience. I've never had a run of luck like that. Guess it is possible. Your sample size is one so to say it extends to snaring/hunting/fishing in general is wrong. I've busted many a deer and some had to be tracked for extended distance, but the vast majority did not. I can spot deer trails/hides/bedding areas and know how to hunt accordingly. Don't tell me I can't do it. Apparently you aren't the hunter you think you are. Snaring? Guess you can't spot a game trail.
Beat Trash- If living of the land is not your thing, it's not your thing. I feel I could, and would, if necessary. Been there, done it. Have hunt and fished since I was physically able. Been it SHTF situations(Katrina, Lenny) and made out fine.
Would I lose weight and be hungry? Yep. Carrying all our necessary food supplies with us in a bug out scenario on foot? Not even close. We can pack vitamins and emergency rations. I can live of the land as I move towards my goal. Just because you can't it doesn't mean others can't.
Lots tougher to hunt deer when the woods are full of zombies.
Just sayin.
03humpalot
08-29-09, 01:53
6933,
actually my sample size was about 22 guys but yeah we all suffered. Get down with your bad ass self dude. Good luck.
Okay, I read Josh's posts a couple times last night and now. Worth the read, methinks, but I've a couple related questions/thoughts.
When Josh described "bugging out", it sounds like his idea is to get from an area without sustaining gear to one with sustaining gear, am I right? Which means you carry whatever the absolute bare minimum you can to get to said area in as timely a manner as possible. Distance and time become a pretty important concepts here.
1) How long do you expect to be bugging anywhere?
2) How far do you expect to be bugging anywhere?
Can anyone explain to me why a vest would be a better idea than a school pack? Would the pack not be less conspicuous and carry more than what's described in the opening posts? Do you know how to use the stuff in a first aid or blow-out kit?
Rifle mags imply a rifle: any plan on how to remain inconspicuous while carrying a rifle?
-B
I am of the mindset that if I am E&E'ing from one place to another I am not looking like escaped Blackwater contractor on the run. Plain, small COMMERCIAL backpack, like a Camelbak Trans-alp, hidden handgun, etc. Move light, move fast, move unnoticed. Wearing a multi-mag vest, chest rig, or any other piece of gear that is even remotely tactical in appearance is going to draw undue attention to one's self; never good. Be it the police, the national guard enforcing martial law, or the thugs doing smash and grabs on the corner, better to go unnoticed, looking like you have nothing of value and presenting no threat.
Okay, I read Josh's posts a couple times last night and now. Worth the read, methinks, but I've a couple related questions/thoughts.
When Josh described "bugging out", it sounds like his idea is to get from an area without sustaining gear to one with sustaining gear, am I right? Which means you carry whatever the absolute bare minimum you can to get to said area in as timely a manner as possible. Distance and time become a pretty important concepts here.
1) How long do you expect to be bugging anywhere?
2) How far do you expect to be bugging anywhere?
Can anyone explain to me why a vest would be a better idea than a school pack? Would the pack not be less conspicuous and carry more than what's described in the opening posts? Do you know how to use the stuff in a first aid or blow-out kit?
Rifle mags imply a rifle: any plan on how to remain inconspicuous while carrying a rifle?
-B
Good questions, and definitely points to consider.
Yes, the assumption of MOVING being the priority is correct. In this discussion we're talking about a couple tools (a vest or some other cover garment and/or a small bag) that are highly portable and easy to incorporate with each other, as well as other tools like a backpack, armor, etc. From my background, if we were using the SERE acronym; (Survival, Evasion, Resistance, Escape) then we would be placing the emphasis on the Evasion.
How far and how long?? Good questions. From some of the members involved in this discussion it sounds like the AO's vary significantly so the parameters will too. I personally don't plan my kit on anything more than 24-48 hours. That's me, and my needs. That's also predicated on my level of training and abilities.
I don't think there are many circumstances where that is an unreasonable timeframe for most realistic situations for the most of you either. Some of you that live in really remote areas might extend that but I'm trying to keep the concepts for the masses. The "how far" part might be anything from "across the street to occupy a house until a QRF arrives" to "I'm 15 miles from home during a power outage and traffic is deadlocked". There are plenty of circumstances that we can "what if". I'm trying to keep it somewhat realistic.
So why a vest instead of a pack?? Another good question. I don't know. I don't know if it is. I think the merits of a vest.....let me clarify, any outer garment...outweigh a pack, but it does present some advantages and disadvantages.
Advantages of a garment:
easy to stow
easy to wear in a vehicle
works in conjunction with another pack or bag
provides easy access to items
provides concealment and potentially shelter
Advantages of a pack:
carry more shit
easy to grab
I can't think of anything else specifically that the bag has the advantage except for the ability to carry more shit. Not that I'm not trying, and to be honest I still would take a small pack or bag with me. I just think a garment as a sort of "first line plus" that can greatly enhance my true first line, but also work well with a second line.
Still no pictures. I'm a slacker. Truth be told this discussion has me fine tuning my set-up. Soon, I promise. It's nothing special but maybe it will give you guys some ideas.
Later,
I didn't address a long gun in the previous post. I will. I want to post the risk versus reward of a long gun, the circumstances that might help us make that decision, and how we might go about keeping a low profile if we do choose to carry one.
Just not this post......
Good insight, and thanks for responding. For what it's worth, the 1-2 day thing is also what I had in mind when entering this discussion.
Right now I can't help but think that a support-role outer wear would only be useful if A) I'm carrying a long gun I need to support, and B) climate/weather permits. Bear in mind that I'm speaking as a civilian with no formal rifle training, and that I've never served as a LEO or in the military.
Another advantage of the pack would be that it can store whatever garment you choose to support you, as well as it's most likely lower profile than wearing said garment would be (AO-dependent; jackets stick out in Florida summers, for instance). Since commercial school packs can carry any garment (say, a chest rig, vest, or even a bandoleer (http://www.eagleindustries.com/product.php?productid=132&cat=94&page=1)) as well as any other stuff you might need, and is less-dependent on your AO, the pack seems to me to be the better choice if picking between the two.
If I thought I was going to get into a gunfight then yeah, I'd absolutely want to be using a rifle instead of a pistol. Problem is I can't carry and conceal a rifle like I can a pistol, and I don't have a rifle small enough or pack long enough to carry a rifle even broken down.
-B
Good insight, and thanks for responding. For what it's worth, the 1-2 day thing is also what I had in mind when entering this discussion.
Right now I can't help but think that a support-role outer wear would only be useful if A) I'm carrying a long gun I need to support, and B) climate/weather permits. Bear in mind that I'm speaking as a civilian with no formal rifle training, and that I've never served as a LEO or in the military.
Another advantage of the pack would be that it can store whatever garment you choose to support you, as well as it's most likely lower profile than wearing said garment would be (AO-dependent; jackets stick out in Florida summers, for instance). Since commercial school packs can carry any garment (say, a chest rig, vest, or even a bandoleer (http://www.eagleindustries.com/product.php?productid=132&cat=94&page=1)) as well as any other stuff you might need, and is less-dependent on your AO, the pack seems to me to be the better choice if picking between the two.
If I thought I was going to get into a gunfight then yeah, I'd absolutely want to be using a rifle instead of a pistol. Problem is I can't carry and conceal a rifle like I can a pistol, and I don't have a rifle small enough or pack long enough to carry a rifle even broken down.
-B
I'm starting to lean to the same conclusion you have. I think I fell into the trap of thinking I needed to combine zombie fighting gear with bug out gear. I would guess there is a time for that. For me some sort of extended patrol vest might make sense for my situation provided I get home, but a molle vest probably wouldn't be low enough profile for much else. I think the vest idea came from "I have a bunch of these molle vests. Besides carrying mags, what else can I do with them?".
The more I think about it, while I'll have to get to work on a small BOB, the best thing I can have for a bug out situation is a full tank of gas in my truck and try to get out early if something happens. Not a great plan, but considering I'm going to college right now( that means no gun for me) and my home is about 120 miles away, I can't imagine walking there is much of a plan either(especially in the winter).
My gear is set up for worst case where I can still be mobile on foot. No car just heel toe express. The vest is a Backup IF I'm seperated from my pack which has gear to get me home on foot.Katadyn water filter,moutainhouse meals,3600 calorie mainstay bar, extra clothes,small pocket rocket stove,tarp etc. The "Altoids fishing kit" is for the vest If I lose the pack at least I'll have something to try to get food. Instead of trying to shoot some small game and telling everyone "Hey,I'm over here" It's 38 miles from work(big city) to home(country) which is where I grew up. That means traveling mostly in wooded areas and near waterways. I also carry a small pocket survival water straw in the vest and would be second line gear like everything else in the vest. The vest is only a backup not my first line gear.
Outlander Systems
08-29-09, 23:45
I didn't address a long gun in the previous post. I will. I want to post the risk versus reward of a long gun, the circumstances that might help us make that decision, and how we might go about keeping a low profile if we do choose to carry one.
Just not this post......
Definitely where I'm at is determining whether a shoulder-fired weapon is mandatory or extraneous in a SHTF/I'm on foot situation.
Anyone ever consider, if you do kick rocks wearing a combat rig, to just throw a "your favourite sports team" rain poncho on for the sake of inconspicuousness? Of course, if it's 97 degrees with a relative humidity of 85+ percent, and burning sunshine, you might just appear deranged...
Trying to figure out how to have one's cake and chow on it too...
Gentlemen,
I'm going to start a new thread called LONG GUN AND MOVEMENT CONSIDERATIONS in this same sub forum. I think it's a subject that needs its own attention. I'd like to discuss when and why we would take a long gun as well as why we might leave it. I'd also like to discuss how we might transport it. I think discussing that dilemma might have bearing on the current discussion, as well as potentially a bigger picture of bugging out, alamo'ing up, and our general game plan.
Any complaints?
I think that's a good idea Josh. It's one of those fantasy-land things that I don't think a lot of people have really thought through. However, it's somewhat inter-related to this topic in terms of what you might stick in the vest for support of a long gun or leave out of the long gun isn't part of the plan.
Outlander Systems
08-30-09, 21:10
This thread has made me wonder about the usefulness of a "Battle Belt".
Simply enough magazines for possible contact, first aid kit, and light.
:confused:
Maybe something I might want to try and assemble. The further I delve into matters, the further I want to shave off weight.
PA PATRIOT
08-30-09, 21:58
The patrol duty belt I wear everyday feels like a ton when held in the hand but disappears weight wise when worn. I guess 20+ years of towing the weight has placed a mental block were I don't even feel as if I'm wearing the weight. I feel I can work within this weight for 16+ hours a day so I try to stay within this realm with my other gear.
Support Gear,
Uncle Mikes Nylon Duty Belt
Uncle Mikes Under Duty Belt
Uncle Mikes Pro-3 Holster
Uncle Mikes Double Magazine case
Uncle Mikes O/C spray Case
Uncle Mikes Double Handcuff case
Uncle Mikes Stream Light Stinger Case
Uncle Mikes Rubber Glove Case
Uncle Mikes Patrol Radio case
Uncle Mikes Belt Keepers X-6
Taser International Holster
ASP Rotating Holster
The Gear,
Glock Model-21 SF
Glock Model-21 13rd Magazine (Three Magazines)
40rds Federal HST Tactical 230gr H/P's
First Defense O/C spray can
S&W linked handcuffs (Two Pairs)
Stream Light Rechargeable Flashlight
Rubber Gloves (Four Pair)
800 megahertz Police Radio
Taser International X-26 Taser
Taser International cartridge reload
ASP 26"inch Baton
Add to that weight Level-2 Plus Body Armor with IMPACT Front & Rear Inserts Plates, Cell Phone and a back-up T-2 Stream Light flash light. I have been carrying a small pre-made Gunshot kit inside a home made slip-on paddle bag that I wear on the small of the back once I exit the vehicle. (I ran out of room on the belt)
Outlander Systems
08-30-09, 22:25
How do you like the 21SF? I've sworn this would be my next handgun, but haven't shot one yet, or had the chance to talk to anyone who's got one.
I think, for all intents and purposes, an adequate self-defense load-out can be assembled on simply a belt.
What does your duty rig weigh in at?
I've also been carrying a duty belt for better than 20 years. I've thought about doing a modified version, say more ammo, go from 2 to 1 set of cuffs (if any) no radio, etc.
I normally travel with at least a G17 and a G26, and I keep a couple of extra G17 mags in those cheapy Fobus single mag holders so that I can add extra ammo easily (go from 2 to 4 mags).
I also normally have a small pack of some sort, currently a Nike single strap book bag sized pack, that has extra flashlight and batteries, big knife, duct tape, multi-tool, snivle gear if appropriate to the weather, etc.
I've thought about the 5.11 type vests as well since they are set up to hold mags and gear like water bottles.
PA PATRIOT
08-31-09, 19:43
How do you like the 21SF? I've sworn this would be my next handgun, but haven't shot one yet, or had the chance to talk to anyone who's got one.
I think, for all intents and purposes, an adequate self-defense load-out can be assembled on simply a belt.
What does your duty rig weigh in at?
To-date I really like the Glock Model-21SF as I shoot it just as well or better then my recently retired Model-17. The only thing I do not like about the pistol is those fingers notches as the top finger notch is a hair on the high side for my hand size. Its a easy fix to remove the offending notch which will be done shortly. I truly feel the 21SF recoils lighter then the Model-17 with a 115gr loading, some say I'M crazy and maybe so but the recoil pulse just feels different between the two pistols and I'M able to control the 21SF better.
I have to check my duty belts weight and get back to you.
Here is a concept I am playing with as a "bug out vest. " The vest would be augmented by a three day pack/Eagle Raid.
I am using a TT one pieve MAV as the platform, left to right are:
Original SOE 500ml IV pouch - used as an IFAK/snivel item pouch. I have tried a tonne of different IFAK pouches. The OSOE 500ml IV is one of my favorites. It will hold all that I need to carry and then some, but isn't oversized like some that pouches that I have had to fill this role.
16 round TT shotshell pouch mounted over a large Emdom stackable utility. I have survival items in the utility, fire starter, power bars, Surefire, batteries and bulb, leatherman, survival blanket, etc. The basics to keep going in case I am seperated from my pack.
Original SOE 12 gauge pull-out tray. Holds 12 rounds. I am really liking this pouch. 6 rounds on a tray attached to the front of the pouch by velcro. Once they are used up, you pull the tray and let it hang out of the way, pull the next tray out of the body of the pouch and let the velcro grab onto the front. Works very slick.
TT 3 Mag Pouch. I really don't like 3 mag pouches...for magazines anyway. I use mine to carry a 500ml bottle of water.
I have been out knocking about with this rig. I like the set up so far. It isn't too heavy, and can be concealed easily under a coat for the most part.
http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n180/railcop/001.jpg
http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n180/railcop/002-2.jpg
http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n180/railcop/004-1.jpg
http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n180/railcop/005.jpg
PA PATRIOT
10-03-09, 11:55
Just wondering why you are going for a shotgun set-up if your going to be on foot? Limited range bulkier/heavy ammo weight and unless you have a SBR stamp the shotgun would be much harder to conceal.
Outlander Systems
10-03-09, 12:49
The main benefit to a scattergun in a post-disaster situation, that I see, is ease of ammunition resupply.
My 93 year-old grandmother has a 12 ga...
PA PATRIOT
10-03-09, 17:51
The main benefit to a scattergun in a post-disaster situation, that I see, is ease of ammunition resupply.
My 93 year-old grandmother has a 12 ga...
True,
But the shotgun for a Mobile "In Route" bug-out weapon is so limited unless it is set up properly for slugs to extend its effective range past standard buckshot. Tactically one would try to avoid all encounters while on foot or inside a vehicle but to limit yourself range wise if your spotted and engaged outside were in coming fire could be outside your shotguns effective range could be hazardous to your health. I bring this point up only because I could not tell by looking at Judges photo's if any of the rounds were slugs with the ones I could see being buckshot.
Outlander Systems
10-03-09, 19:33
At the current moment I do not have a shotgun in the weapon locker, nor do I think it is an ideal defensive weapon in the event of societal collapse.
That being said, I can see some of the merits out there, but I'm curious as to what the judge says about his rig.
I can't speak for Pennsylvania, but I can't find .223/5.56 to save my life around here. I haven't seen a box of .45 in at least six months; shotgun ammunition is still stacked to ceiling at all the gun shops and sporting goods stores in my AO.
The lack of .45 ammunition scares the bejeezus out of me. It's seriously creepy.
The shotgun rig is just one of the set-ups I am playing with at the moment. As already pointed out, there is abundance of 12 gauge ammo all over North America, so I don't figure that it would be overly difficult to come up with ammo if needed.
The Original SOE pouch has 12 rounds of slugs. There are six more in the side saddle on the shotgun. Yeah, you can carry more .223, but I don't feel undergunned with this load out.
Outlander Systems
10-03-09, 22:13
Ammo resupply post-collapse is one of my biggest worries. It's hard enough finding 5.56 right now, let alone during a catastrophe.
The only two commonly available ammunition types that I've been able to find as of late are 12GA and .22.
Another plus to the scattergun is ease of cleaning & maintenance.
Not a bad option. Cool setup; I've always wondered if anyone ran a dedicated SG rig.
PA PATRIOT
10-05-09, 21:02
The shotgun rig is just one of the set-ups I am playing with at the moment. As already pointed out, there is abundance of 12 gauge ammo all over North America, so I don't figure that it would be overly difficult to come up with ammo if needed.
The Original SOE pouch has 12 rounds of slugs. There are six more in the side saddle on the shotgun. Yeah, you can carry more .223, but I don't feel undergunned with this load out.
Effective Range, Sustainable rate of fire and Combat accuracy is basically the nuts and bolts of single or small team combat. Many will say tactics can lean the percentages in your favor but unless you have the correct tools for the mission at hand one can under gun in open urban and rural SHTF fire fights. Case in point, how many Combat Marines currently carry a shotgun as their "Primary Weapon"? Those that due use them are mission specific for door breaching and indoor room clearing use. Not trying to knock you in any way with my response but just pointing out a few flaws with a shotgun as a primary weapon while moving in a hostile outdoor environment.
PA PATRIOT
10-05-09, 21:05
Ammo resupply post-collapse is one of my biggest worries. It's hard enough finding 5.56 right now, let alone during a catastrophe.
The only two commonly available ammunition types that I've been able to find as of late are 12GA and .22.
Another plus to the scattergun is ease of cleaning & maintenance.
Not a bad option. Cool setup; I've always wondered if anyone ran a dedicated SG rig.
We are seeing a better ammo selection in the Philadelphia area with 5.56 and .45acp showing up on a pretty regular basis at the local shops and Wal-Mart. Prices are still a bit high but the ammo is there if one really needed a few cases.
Effective Range, Sustainable rate of fire and Combat accuracy is basically the nuts and bolts of single or small team combat. Many will say tactics can lean the percentages in your favor but unless you have the correct tools for the mission at hand one can under gun in open urban and rural SHTF fire fights. Case in point, how many Combat Marines currently carry a shotgun as their "Primary Weapon"? Those that due use them are mission specific for door breaching and indoor room clearing use. Not trying to knock you in any way with my response but just pointing out a few flaws with a shotgun as a primary weapon while moving in a hostile outdoor environment.
Point taken. But in my AO, there is no such thing as storing an AR or AK in the vehicle as part of SHTF pre-planning. Shotguns can be. Which is why a shotgun is a consideration and why I built a survival LBV around one. I more apt to have a shotgun in the vehicle if caught away from home when a crisis develops. Of course all the what is acceptable and what is not as far as storage and transport of firearms goes out the window in a crisis, but again pre-planning doesn't allow AR's and a stack of mags under the back seat. That would be a good way to earn a jail sentence here.
K.L. Davis
10-05-09, 23:56
I think we've pretty well covered the pros and cons of a shotgun...
What was this thread about again?
PA PATRIOT
10-06-09, 14:24
Point taken. But in my AO, there is no such thing as storing an AR or AK in the vehicle as part of SHTF pre-planning. Shotguns can be. Which is why a shotgun is a consideration and why I built a survival LBV around one. I more apt to have a shotgun in the vehicle if caught away from home when a crisis develops. Of course all the what is acceptable and what is not as far as storage and transport of firearms goes out the window in a crisis, but again pre-planning doesn't allow AR's and a stack of mags under the back seat. That would be a good way to earn a jail sentence here.
I understand and of course being Legal is the way to go. DOCGKR had posted something about using the shotgun shells which contain a Sabot-ed jacketed bullet which offered better down range trajectory and terminal performance. Maybe something you would wish to check into if it increases your effective range past normal slugs.
With that said I'M now back to are previous scheduled program.
J_Hernandez
10-19-09, 23:29
this would be my vest of choice for a BOV. sadly the only pics i can find are from an airsoft page but a vest set up with a pack seems to work out pretty well in my mind.
http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m276/Luis2185/DSC07918.jpg
http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m276/Luis2185/DSC07897.jpg
http://www.airsoftpacific.com/ads_mod/images/ad1780_img2266_large.jpg
http://www.airsoftpacific.com/ads_mod/images/ad1780_img2267_large.jpg
http://www.airsoftpacific.com/ads_mod/images/ad1780_img2270_large.jpg
this would be my vest of choice for a BOV.
Why??
Outlander Systems
10-20-09, 10:40
this would be my vest of choice for a BOV. sadly the only pics i can find are from an airsoft page but a vest set up with a pack seems to work out pretty well in my mind.
http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m276/Luis2185/DSC07918.jpg
http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m276/Luis2185/DSC07897.jpg
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The issue I see with that loadout is that there's no way for the load burden to be carried on the hips, or displaced around the torso. As well, with so much open space and the "bib" type configuration, the load looks like it will rest entirely on the shoulders, which would NOT be a fun time. I haven't commented on some of the other vests seen, because they're minimalist and streamlined.
A vest with more surface area covering the majority of the torso, and a very rigid/snug fit will ease load carriage.
With no belt, and so much open space, with a moderate load I envision that thing shifting and constricting like a multicam anaconda.
The purpose, I see, for a BOV, would be to have good, even load displacement, and a very small loadout. With the amount of room on that thing, the benefit of the vest is lost, and you may as well go with a small pack.
You could achieve better results with a MOLLE vest, and a small MOLLE pack mounted to the back.
I'm not trying to be a hater, or a negative Nancy, but I'm not seeing a lot of benefits to that design.
Navigating- Good points. Negative Nancy-hilarious!:D
Maybe Debbie downer?
I keep coming back to the benefits of a small pack that has a belt over a vest.
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