View Full Version : Quick Clot
are there good reasons not to use quik clot? i have several left over from OIF in my kit, but the army stopped playing with it and gave us HEMCON bandages (which they also stopped giving out). What are the reasons the military stopped issuing these two products, and are they worth holding onto for emergency use in the field? Or, are they dangerous?
I would really like to hear any negative reasons as I have considered getting some for a bug out kit
RetreatHell
08-17-09, 22:27
I am a HUGE proponent of QuikClot, as I would be dead had it not been for that wonderful powder!
Six years ago, on April 12, 2003 while serving in Iraq as a US Marine Infantryman during the initial invasion of that country, I was shot under the left armpit by an AK-47 fired by a Fedayeen Fighter from a distance of roughly 30-40 feet away. The bullet also severed my spinal cord, completely and permanently paralyzing me from the waist down... trust me when I say that I was in a real bad way.
The Navy Corpsman who came to my aid on the battlefield poured QuikClot on my entry wound to help stop the bleeding. Not only did it instantly stop the bleeding, but because it basically cauterized the wound and gave me a nasty chemical burn it kept me awake. As soon as he poured the powder on my entry wound, I remember softly yelping (my lung was punctured too by the bullet so I couldn't scream) and clenching and clawing the dirt with my fingernails because of the intense pain. That might sound awful, but it really helped to keep my eyes open for a little while longer, which in turn helped to keep my alive as well.
The only downside I can possibly see with QuikClot is that it gives patients a nasty chemical burn... but so ****ing what? I'd rather have the large tennis-ball-size chemical burn under my left armpit and be ALIVE than not have the burn and be rotting six feet under.
The burn required a skin graft too, which sucked, but like I said, it ain't that big a deal in the larger scheme of things.
If I were you I'd hold onto the QuikClot just in case. However, just don't use it unless the circumstances are truly life-threatening, as there's no need to burn the hell out of someone unless they are dying.
That's just my two cents. I'm not a doctor or medical professional, just a jarhead whose life was undoubtably saved by QuikClot.
-Paul
Main arguments against it is the likelihood of a serious burn. That and folks really weren't being trained to use the stuff properly. I still keep a few packs in my kit, because at the end of the day the stuff does tend to work when used properly.
RH, glad you pulled through that experience.
PA PATRIOT
08-18-09, 13:00
Any info for HEMCON bandages or the new sponge that hit the market?
When you say, "Main arguments against it is the likelihood of a serious burn. That and folks really weren't being trained to use the stuff properly." Do you mean the soldiers were not using the stuff effectively or using it incorrectly so that it did not actually stop bleeding? or caused MORE damage? Or were the soldiers pouring it in every GSW and causing the burns when a medic would have deemed the GSW did not need QClot and as a result many non life threatening GSWs had burns and excessive debridement...? Just curious if it was not being used effectively...or... was being used unnecessarily?
Cascades236
08-18-09, 16:00
I was under the impression that the newer variations made with chitosan didn't have the chemical burn issues. Was I told wrong?
Basically all of the above. A lot of folks are taught to pretty much rip the package open and start pouring, but there's a lot more involved. Proper cleaning of the wound, getting the correct amount of quikclot to the source of the bleeding (I've seen guys in the field just pour it into the hole thinking that will do it), compressing the wound properly, etc, all come into play. Forgetting to dry up as much water as possible before applying it was also an issue. That stuff touches water and you better have a small fountain ready to wash it away. What I've seen (mainly from my time in Iraq) is a rush to use it on small, but heavily bleeding wounds, where conventional methods would have arguably been just as effective, without the burning that can result. We're also talking about a situation where each man is given a couple packets, but only two medics or in some instances 1 medic is on the team. While the medics are usually pretty well versed on the use of the stuff or can adequately supervise its use, you give Joe a packet and run him through a 30 minute module on how the stuff should be used and you end up with situations where it's being poured all over the place and some dude is being burnt like a mofo.
When you say, "Main arguments against it is the likelihood of a serious burn. That and folks really weren't being trained to use the stuff properly." Do you mean the soldiers were not using the stuff effectively or using it incorrectly so that it did not actually stop bleeding? or caused MORE damage? Or were the soldiers pouring it in every GSW and causing the burns when a medic would have deemed the GSW did not need QClot and as a result many non life threatening GSWs had burns and excessive debridement...? Just curious if it was not being used effectively...or... was being used unnecessarily?
I'll have to check what they gave me in '07, which was the last time I asked for a couple packages. Recall the medic mentioning a change in the formula, but can't remember right now.
I was under the impression that the newer variations made with chitosan didn't have the chemical burn issues. Was I told wrong?
RetreatHell
08-18-09, 16:38
Just FYI, here is the 6 year old chemical burn scar caused by the QuikClot being poured onto my gunshot entry wound (7.62mm fired from AK-47) under my left armpit. The actual entry hole was very small, but the QuikClot, poured hastily by my nervous and pissed off Corpsman, burned the surrounding flesh as well. It's roughly 2 inches wide by 1 1/2 inches tall. I have a few dozen scars overall scattered around my whole body, so this one ain't bothering me.
And like I said in my previous post I would, without a shadow of a doubt, be dead had QuikClot NOT been used on my gunshot entry wound, as I was bleeding out of my lower back from a much lager exit wound that no one even knew I had sustained.
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv219/RetreatHell/KAC%20SR-15%20E3/DSCF1317.jpg
theJanitor
08-18-09, 17:23
celox uses chitosan, and it's what i keep in my first aid kit.
NinjaMedic
08-19-09, 00:24
First of all thank you for your service, you have given more for our country and us as individuals than most of us will ever think about. That being said I would respectfully submit that Quick Clot is probably not the primary reason you survived your injuries and could have caused significantly more serious injuries to your lungs which falls into that category of not semi bad but really-bad things. As you yourself mentioned you were losing more blood from your exit wound than the entrance wound. Also the application of Quickclot under your arm could have prevented a physician from being able to insert a chest tube to treat the probable hemo/pneumothorax that would have resulted from this wound which also makes a bad day much worse. As I have mentioned before, while QuickClot and similar products have their place they are very few and far between and it is a very poor decision to use them in a civilian setting most of the time. I treat at least one GSW or Stabbing a week even on (for us) relatively slow shifts. I have yet to see an injury that I believe quickclot or a similar hemostatic agent would have been necessary including many groin and abdominal wounds. Unless you are routinely treating massive non-compressible hemorrhages 2-3 hours from definitive care you really dont have a need for these products and can do much more harm than good. "Chemical Burns" - in this case actually just thermal burns from the exothermic reaction is not the only major concern. Emboli will kill you just as fast as bleeding out and there is a number of other complications as well. Gauze - Direct Pressure - Definitive Care. Thats what we need to worry about.
MSP "Sarge"
08-19-09, 00:29
Can you purchase these products? Expensive?
quickclot will save your life no doubt. a friend of mine took a femoral hit to his left leg from an ak in ramadi. michael monsoor then dragged him off of the street so that he could get treated by the hm on scene. the quickclot saved his life, but not without taking a tax, which was major nerve and skin damage.
weigh the two out, i will take skin damage and a skin graft any day!!
It sounds like QC is good stuff, but as I thought the knowledge and skill to use it and "when" to use it are significantly more complex than "tear open pouch with teeth and pour" which is what is often implied. I have friends that are medics and there dept. will not let them touch the stuff. I work hours or days from help and would like to learn to use it "properly", not sure where that learning will come from:(
RETREATHELL all I have to say is God Bless You and your one tuff SOB, Thank You and your in my prayers!
Microwvbleturtle
08-19-09, 11:12
Gauze - Direct Pressure - Definitive Care. Thats what we need to worry about.
The Army agrees. We're issued QC gauze now. Chemical reaction still remains but without the heat.
We were issued HEMCONs prior to deploying and got rid of them a couple months ago. My section medic was instructed that there were two primary reasons for the recall:
1) Chitosan is poisonous when inhaled.
2) It wouldn't come off as easily as "advertised". Apparently once the victims got back to CSHs the doctors had issues removing the bandages and sometimes surgery was the only method of removing every part of the bandage.
Indeed. I've seen medics have to pull out the equivalent of steel wool and scrub the bandages out. It definitely has its applications, but used prematurely, incorrectly, or even incorrectly, and you've got some potentially painful hours waiting for you down the road.
2) It wouldn't come off as easily as "advertised". Apparently once the victims got back to CSHs the doctors had issues removing the bandages and sometimes surgery was the only method of removing every part of the bandage.
Heavy Metal
08-19-09, 22:19
quickclot will save your life no doubt. a friend of mine took a femoral hit to his left leg from an ak in ramadi. michael monsoor then dragged him off of the street so that he could get treated by the hm on scene. the quickclot saved his life, but not without taking a tax, which was major nerve and skin damage.
weigh the two out, i will take skin damage and a skin graft any day!!
Was that the incident where Petty Officer Monsoor earned his Silver Star?
[QUOTE=Heavy Metal;436277]Was that the incident where Petty Officer Monsoor earned his Silver Star?[/QUOTE/]
sure was
I am a HUGE proponent of QuikClot, as I would be dead had it not been for that wonderful powder!
Six years ago, on April 12, 2003 while serving in Iraq as a US Marine Infantryman during the initial invasion of that country, I was shot under the left armpit by an AK-47 fired by a Fedayeen Fighter from a distance of roughly 30-40 feet away. The bullet also severed my spinal cord, completely and permanently paralyzing me from the waist down... trust me when I say that I was in a real bad way.
The Navy Corpsman who came to my aid on the battlefield poured QuikClot on my entry wound to help stop the bleeding. Not only did it instantly stop the bleeding, but because it basically cauterized the wound and gave me a nasty chemical burn it kept me awake. As soon as he poured the powder on my entry wound, I remember softly yelping (my lung was punctured too by the bullet so I couldn't scream) and clenching and clawing the dirt with my fingernails because of the intense pain. That might sound awful, but it really helped to keep my eyes open for a little while longer, which in turn helped to keep my alive as well.
The only downside I can possibly see with QuikClot is that it gives patients a nasty chemical burn... but so ****ing what? I'd rather have the large tennis-ball-size chemical burn under my left armpit and be ALIVE than not have the burn and be rotting six feet under.
The burn required a skin graft too, which sucked, but like I said, it ain't that big a deal in the larger scheme of things.
If I were you I'd hold onto the QuikClot just in case. However, just don't use it unless the circumstances are truly life-threatening, as there's no need to burn the hell out of someone unless they are dying.
That's just my two cents. I'm not a doctor or medical professional, just a jarhead whose life was undoubtably saved by QuikClot.
-Paul
There is a new generation of Quikclot that is now available. It has been used very successfully in Iraq and Afganistan and the Israelis have used it in Gaza. It no longer comes in a granular form, but is now in gauze. The material that causes the blood to clot is also changed from zeolite (which had an exothermic reaction if combined with water), to kaolin, which has none of the "heat" associated with the old product. The first generation product is still usable, but you need to wipe the area of any water prior to pouring it on the wound. The new product is used by pressing the gauze into the wound and applying pressure. It has proven very effective both for military and civilian use.
I have personal experience using the new product to stop bleeding from cuts. I use Coumadin blood thinner and have cut myself a couple of times over the years and cannot get the bleeding under control without a lot of blood loss and a major mess with towels, gauze and bandages. With Quikclot, I simply open the package and press the gauze onto the cut and hold it there with pressure for a couple of minutes. The bleed is quickly controlled. I now keep it at home and in my first aid kit that I carry when I'm out in the mountains.
You can check it out and buy it at Quikclot.com. It is made by Z-Medica corp. and their website has a lot of info about the products and testimonials. Their site is Z-medica.com.
Voodoochild
08-23-09, 21:34
Anyone here have any experience or info regarding CelArm Celox.
http://www.celoxmedical.com/
Iraq Ninja
08-23-09, 21:46
I know that some of the Brits in Iraq used the Celox A injectable version with good results. It comes in a syringe with no needle.
Voodoochild
08-23-09, 21:54
Yeah I saw those on their site. Grey Group has a pretty good med package available that uses Celox products. Just wondering how well Cleox did compared to Quick Clot.
Anyone here have any experience or info regarding CelArm Celox.
http://www.celoxmedical.com/
Celox uses a completely different substance in their products than Quikclot. Celox uses "chitosan", which is basically ground up shrimp shells as their clotting agent. It does stop bleeding by forming a "pseudo-clot" (the manufacturer's description), where Quikclot actually activates the clotting cascade. The clotting substance used by Quikclot is "kaolin" which is a mineral that activates clotting factors 12 and 11. Take a look at both the Quikclot.com and Celoxmedical.com websites as both have fairly complete info on the products.
We were taught to NOT open with your teeth because the powder will get into your nose, mouth, and eyes causing problems for you as well as giving the victim a slight skin burn. the medics describe the new Quikclot as a sunburn type burn and treated much easier. We just have to make sure we stick the packet of whatever product used, pad or powder, somewhere obvious on the clothing, so that the surgeons know they have to remove the wad and be ready.
goodoleboy
08-25-09, 20:12
I am a HUGE proponent of QuikClot, as I would be dead had it not been for that wonderful powder!
Six years ago, on April 12, 2003 while serving in Iraq as a US Marine Infantryman during the initial invasion of that country, I was shot under the left armpit by an AK-47 fired by a Fedayeen Fighter from a distance of roughly 30-40 feet away. The bullet also severed my spinal cord, completely and permanently paralyzing me from the waist down... trust me when I say that I was in a real bad way.
The Navy Corpsman who came to my aid on the battlefield poured QuikClot on my entry wound to help stop the bleeding. Not only did it instantly stop the bleeding, but because it basically cauterized the wound and gave me a nasty chemical burn it kept me awake. As soon as he poured the powder on my entry wound, I remember softly yelping (my lung was punctured too by the bullet so I couldn't scream) and clenching and clawing the dirt with my fingernails because of the intense pain. That might sound awful, but it really helped to keep my eyes open for a little while longer, which in turn helped to keep my alive as well.
The only downside I can possibly see with QuikClot is that it gives patients a nasty chemical burn... but so ****ing what? I'd rather have the large tennis-ball-size chemical burn under my left armpit and be ALIVE than not have the burn and be rotting six feet under.
The burn required a skin graft too, which sucked, but like I said, it ain't that big a deal in the larger scheme of things.
If I were you I'd hold onto the QuikClot just in case. However, just don't use it unless the circumstances are truly life-threatening, as there's no need to burn the hell out of someone unless they are dying.
That's just my two cents. I'm not a doctor or medical professional, just a jarhead whose life was undoubtably saved by QuikClot.
-Paul
Hey, welcome home brother!!! I am very glad the Corpsman had some QuickClot on him. I hate that you got the chemical burn and are suffering from the spinal injury. God bless you brother! ;)
Yeah I saw those on their site. Grey Group has a pretty good med package available that uses Celox products. Just wondering how well Cleox did compared to Quick Clot.
The three main differences that I'm aware of are that Quick Clot will only work at warmer temperatures, reacts with any liquid based substance and generates intense heat in the wound. Celox will work at any temperature, only reacts with blood and doesn't generate the intense heat that QC does.
Well the only good I can think about is the A.. H... the stole my gear out of my jeep may get messed up using my hem con and quick clot :( I had my med kit and aid bag jacked in Jul been replacing with z med stuff..
Quikclot has been through a couple of reformulations and is now available to the civilian market. The original powder did have some exothermic reaction to water and, if the area around the wound was not dried, there was some burning.
That is no longer the case. The current versions of Quikclot now uses "kaolin", which is an inert mineral that has no exthermic effect. It works extremely well and is in use in Iraq and Afganistan. There are many hospitals and EMT organizations that are using it. The product is offered in various forms of gauze, pads, sponges and even an interventional product that is formulated to fit around catheters.
It is orderable at Quikclot.com and at a number of on-line merchants.
I have personal experience with both the old formulation and the new ones. I use Coumadin, a blood thinner that causes extensive bleeding if I am cut or scratched. Prior to finding Quikclot, getting a bleed stopped was problematic. Since I acquired it, I have been able to get any bleed stopped with a minimum of fuss. I have even used it to help a neighbor who gashed his arm with a recipricating saw and was able to get his bleeding stopped before the EMT's got there. The wound was about 4 inches long and it took several Quikclot pads and a couple of minutes of pressure, but it stopped. When the EMTs heard the story, they put pressure on their medical director to get Quikclot for their department and they now carry it in their kits. I keep it in my house and in my personal aid kit when I'm out in the bush.
Kentucky Cop
10-07-09, 13:49
Anyone here have any experience or info regarding CelArm Celox.
http://www.celoxmedical.com/
Our entire department was just issued Celox with a gunshot kit. After several reviews of all the offerings out there for the kit, we went and now issue Celox. After a 4 hour class on it along with graphic videos from over sea's and home, I am a fan.
It appears that the only difference with Celox and Quickclot is that Celox doesn't burn you and the Celox becomes so stable in the wound so the the doctors can just pull it out of the "hole" when you hit the ER. Also, we were told that Quckclot has to be washed out by surgeons. Celox is made out of several things along with what I think they said was some type of seashell mix which your body just absorbs eventually. I am just a street cop and havent a damn clue exactly whats in it so that was the best way to advise you what I learned in class:D My department is 650 strong and everyone got a kit.
You tube has some awesome videos of this stuff in action!
Ky Cop
I got an honest question about QC...
I know that the military is well versed in using QC and other methods of chemically stopping massive bleeding, but what about the civilian emergency medical community? Are the docs in the ED going to know how to handle this stuff being used if you use it say, after inadvertently blowing a hole in your leg quail hunting?
Kentucky Cop
10-08-09, 10:40
I got an honest question about QC...
I know that the military is well versed in using QC and other methods of chemically stopping massive bleeding, but what about the civilian emergency medical community? Are the docs in the ED going to know how to handle this stuff being used if you use it say, after inadvertently blowing a hole in your leg quail hunting?
As for our city, the Police and Fire gods all sat down with the ER staff and Trauma surgeons to discuss us using this product. Apparently everyone now is on board with the Celox being out in the public safety community here. By the way, we have the number on trauma hospital in the state. Tons of air medical helicopters are always seen making their approach...:cool:
I got an honest question about QC...
I know that the military is well versed in using QC and other methods of chemically stopping massive bleeding, but what about the civilian emergency medical community? Are the docs in the ED going to know how to handle this stuff being used if you use it say, after inadvertently blowing a hole in your leg quail hunting?
There is very little that the docs would have to know about "handling" Quikclot. The latest generation of the product does not have any of the exothermic problems the first generation caused. There is no "burning" issue. Quikclot now comes in a gauze or sponge formulation and is impregnated with kaolin which is a clay-like substance. It has no heat involved. The kaolin triggers the clotting cascade by activating factor XII and factor XI of the clotting cascade. The first generation Quikclot, which was in powder form, causes clotting by removing the water from the blood which generated the "heat".
If you go to Z-Medica.com and Quikclot.com, you can see some videos which uses both products. There is still a call for the first generation product, which, if the area around the wound is wiped dry, does not burn the skin of the patient. It is very effective. The new gauze and sponge products are also very effective and are in demand by both the military and civilian first response community. I keep it at home for emergency use and have had occasion to need it on a couple of occasions. It is very effective, even when used on someone who has Coumadin in their blood. No mess, no fuss, it just stops the bleeding.
I was under the impression that the newer variations made with chitosan didn't have the chemical burn issues. Was I told wrong?
The original Quikclot was in a granular form which had an exothermic reaction with water. That is what caused the burning issues that some have experienced. It worked by literally removing the water from blood which left the clot to stop the bleeding. It is still being used for some injuries.
The new formulation is a completely different formulation with a different ingredient that has no "heating" properties. That ingredient is kaolin, which is a clay-like substance that activates clotting factors 12 and 11 and that starts the body's own clotting cascade. It is in gauze or sponge form and the kaolin is impregnated into the gauze. It is just as effective as the old formulation with none of the issues that were of concern with the granular product.
It is now available for over the counter purchase as well as on-line. I've seen it at Kroger's supermarket and a "google-search" will give you a number of sites that carrry it. I have purchased mine at quikclot.com.
I have used both the granular product and the gauze to stop major bleeds with a person who uses blood thinners. They have had some really serious problems with small cuts or scatches that bleed uncontrollably. The granular product worked very well and did not burn, but I cleaned the area around the wound very well before applying it. There is also some residue that has to be cleaned away after the bleeding is stopped. The gauze product is much simpler to use. You just tear open the package and press and hold the gauze into the wound. It has never failed to stop the bleeding and there is nothing to clean up afterward.
Gutshot John
10-26-09, 21:10
I helped with some of the field tests/studies of early QuikClot powder and even then the exothermic reaction was apparent but the alternative of bleeding to death outweighed those concerns. With more modern alternatives like Combat Gauze (I really like the idea of the medium mixed with the bandage) and kaolin those aren't even a concern any more.
If there is nothing else available, use the QuikClot, if you're investing in new kit, then get something a bit more modern.
You indicated that you favor "Combat Gauze" over Quikclot. The fact is that "Combat Gauze" is a newer version of Quikclot. They still make the powder product for certain uses, but have a large number of newer items that are gauze or sponge formated with kaolin as the clotting agent. The granulated product is zeolite based. While zeolite has exothermic reactions, kaolin does not. For most uses, the gauze products are the better choice as there is no problem with "heat".
I have used both of them and although the granular product worked very well, I prefer the gauze version of Quikclot because it is easier to use and does not have any burning risk.
Gutshot John
10-27-09, 10:28
You indicated that you favor "Combat Gauze" over Quikclot. The fact is that "Combat Gauze" is a newer version of Quikclot.
Huh? Yes I know. Why I said.
I really like the idea of the medium mixed with the bandage
although the granular product worked very well, I prefer the gauze version of Quikclot because it is easier to use and does not have any burning risk.
Funny that's exactly what I thought I said.
So which is preferable? Powder of gauze?
Powder seems like a PITA. Even with a hemostatic agent, your gonna want to pack a wound and apply a proper compression dressing. The gauze seems like it adds nothing to the treatment protocol as far as process is involved, and that seems like a win.
Are there downsides to the gauze versus the powder that I am not seeing?
I pulled the following article off the internet. The newest version of Quikclot is safe and easy to use. Now recognized by the U.S. Army Material Command.
Wallingford gauze maker a lifesaver
Published: Tuesday, November 3, 2009
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By Angela Carter, Register Staff
WALLINGFORD — A town-based company recognized by the military for creating a gauze that stems life-threatening blood loss is rapidly working to expand its workforce and broaden the product’s availability to civilians.
The U.S. Army Materiel Command earlier this fall named Z-Medica Corp.’s Quikclot Combat Gauze as one of the “Top Ten Greatest Inventions of 2008.”
When traditional gauze is applied to a wound, it can take more than 15 minutes for a blood clot to begin to form, which is ample time for a wounded person to die.
Z-Medica Chief Executive Officer Brian Herman said Monday Quikclot reduces those precious minutes to two to five. The gauze was selected by the military’s Committee on Tactical Combat Casualty Care to be carried by all active-duty U.S. soldiers.
Z-Medica was co-founded by scientist and former NASA team engineer Francis X. Hursey in 2002.
In its earliest form, Quikclot was packaged as small granules that would be poured over wounds to speed up clotting.The second-generation product was manufactured in units that resemble bean bags.
In 2004, research teams from the Office of Naval Research, Z-Medica and Galen Stucky, the E. Khashoggi Industries LLC Professor in Letters and Science at the University of California, Santa Barbara, worked to improve the product, which had the potential to cause second-degree burns around a wound.
Herman said the company embarked on developing a product that was fast-working, safe (no side effects), easy to use (no training required) and inexpensive.
“The most important aspect of this work is the thought that it is providing life support that is needed on an immediate-response basis to both military and civilian personnel. For those who knowingly are in harm’s way, it is particularly important,” Stucky said in a statement.
Researchers found that an inert mineral called kaolin, which would eliminate burns and did not contain animal or human proteins that could trigger adverse reactions, could be infused into gauze.
“It met our four criteria,” Herman said.
In addition to military applications, Quikclot is used by emergency responders, law enforcement and hospitals.
“We always say: from the battlefield to the hospital to the home. Our ultimate goal is to make every civilian their own first responder,” Herman said.
The 'new' QuikClot does not burn and works well. I know this first-hand. Put it on, apply pressure and leave it on until you get medical attention.
After a number of comments and replies on this and other sites, I got in touch with both Z-Medica, which makes Quikclot and Combat Medical Systems, which markets to the military.
The product that was first used in the field was a granular substance (zeolite) that, when it contacted water, generated an exothermic reaction that sometimes caused burning. In addition, it had to be washed from the wound before it could be dealt with at the aid station. It worked extremely well for what it was designed for and that was to stop uncontrolled bleeding and it saved a lot of lives. It's mechanism for stopping the bleed was that the zeolite removed the water from the blood, creating a clot.
Due to concerns about the heat problems, the team at Z-Medica reformulated their products using a substance that does not have any exothermic qualities, kaolin. Kaolin is a clay-like substance that starts the bodies own clotting mechanism by activating clotting factors 12 and 11 and that starts the clotting cascade. The new product is called "Combat Gauze". It comes in a roll of gauze that can be pressed into the wound, held with pressure and stops the bleeding.
The original granular product is not sold anymore. I have personal experience using both the old, granular product, and the new gauze. They both worked great, but the gauze is much more simple to use with none of the heat involved risk. I keep some in my personal kit as well as at home.
It's like have a handgun. You never need one until you need one badly !!!!!!
Submariner
01-07-10, 17:25
I helped with some of the field tests/studies of early QuikClot powder and even then the exothermic reaction was apparent but the alternative of bleeding to death outweighed those concerns. With more modern alternatives like Combat Gauze (I really like the idea of the medium mixed with the bandage) and kaolin those aren't even a concern any more.
If there is nothing else available, use the QuikClot, if you're investing in new kit, then get something a bit more modern.
Is the statement in blue the general consensus here?
Is QUIKCLOT ACS+ the newer version (kaolin) of the QUIKCLOT ACS?
If you had the original QUIKCLOT ACS, how long might you use it after its printed expiration date?
Gutshot John
01-07-10, 20:00
If you had the original QUIKCLOT ACS, how long might you use it after its printed expiration date?
Is that something you really want to cheap out on? The typical life span is three years, I'd bet that effectiveness starts to drop dramatically at that point, but I don't know that there are any hard-and-fast studies. Three years after expiration? If I'm desperate I might give it a shot. Anything beats dead but its entirely situational so you're going to have to use your best judgment.
The presumption is that you take inventory every once in a while and that if you have no other options (i.e. you left your BOK at home and found the old med kit in the car which you almost forgot about) use it if someone's life's at stake.
You should rotate your stock every once in a while.
Expired stuff makes for great training aids.
Von Rheydt
01-08-10, 02:25
John, here's one for you.
I have not used the new clotting agents but have spoken at length to some of the Military trainers and SF medics who like and recomend some of the products out there now.
Here's to my question/comment:
Back in the day when Julius Cesaer was a Team Leader and clotting agents were not around I was shown an improvised method. Field dressings used to come in packs of two. If you had a bleeder that would benefit from assistance with clotting you would put one of the dressings in a mess tin and set fire to it. The resulting ash being sterile was then to be placed in the wound to help clotting and the second dressing placed over the top.
I will make the point that this was not a method found on the normal medic training syllabus. It was a item taught on the general SF type course years back - drastic situations call for drastic measures. I know that surgeons would faint at the thought of this.
Did you ever come across this one on your side of the puddle??
Gutshot John
01-08-10, 09:06
I'd be curious if that works. I know wood ash makes lye so that might be caustic. That's just a guess though I've no proof that cotton is the same.
Honey can also be used, though I never have, by way of osmotic pressure. It also is sterile.
For small non lifethreatenng cuts super glue makes a good ad hoc bandage.
Submariner
01-08-10, 09:44
Is that something you really want to cheap out on? The typical life span is three years, I'd bet that effectiveness starts to drop dramatically at that point, but I don't know that there are any hard-and-fast studies. Three years after expiration? If I'm desperate I might give it a shot. Anything beats dead but its entirely situational so you're going to have to use your best judgment.
The presumption is that you take inventory every once in a while and that if you have no other options (i.e. you left your BOK at home and found the old med kit in the car which you almost forgot about) use it if someone's life's at stake.
You should rotate your stock every once in a while.
Expired stuff makes for great training aids.
The three packs on hand expired September - December of last year. They were replaced with four new QC gauze packs. I'm wondering if they should be retained or trashed. Since changing to gauze, I'm not sure of its value as a training aid.
Von Rheydt
01-08-10, 10:40
Apologies for minor off topic tangent.
I'd be curious if that works. I know wood ash makes lye so that might be caustic. That's just a guess though I've no proof that cotton is the same.
It was taught, wisdom of hindsight etc......
Honey can also be used, though I never have, by way of osmotic pressure. It also is sterile.
Used honey in hospital and use it at home. Manuka honey, from New Zealand, is THE stuff to use. It has tremedous antibiotic properties, more so than any other honey. Teaspoons three times a day are given to patients with disorders (including cancer) or surgery of the alimentary canal. There are also ready to use dressings with it on/in. We take it at home against colds and throat infections and I have used it on the rugrats scrapes.
For small non lifethreatenng cuts super glue makes a good ad hoc bandage.
Dermabond, good stuff. Should be a must have item in every major personal aid kit.
Iraq Ninja
01-08-10, 15:49
Expiration dates are mandated by the FDA and manufacturers love em for other reasons such as increased sales.
I used to work in regulatory affairs for an in vitro diagnostic company. Expiration dates for our products could be a matter of life or death if used in diagnostics such as for PSA.
As for drugs , the only one I can remember being a problem is tetracycline. Other problems will be related to a reduction in potency and that may result in serious treatment issues.
But, you would be surprised how long correctly stored OTC drugs can last and be effective, like aspirin.
I am careful with IV fluids and never use em out of date. Epipens are another concern.
I am not too worried about quickclot going bad. I would be worried about wear and tear of the packaging more so then the date.
Iraq Ninja
01-08-10, 15:53
Von,
Lofty Wiseman had a fellow instructor who was the plant expert. He mentioned making bandages and casts out of comfrey I think.
Von Rheydt
01-08-10, 17:46
I know comfrey makes a good poultice to help healing.
Submariner
01-08-10, 18:57
MIKE G and Iraq Ninja - Thanks!
Gutshot John
01-09-10, 10:06
The problem with expired stuff is in knowing how it will react.
Almost any substance will lose efficacy as it gets older, but it can often get unstable as well especially when it relies on a chemical reaction. Does the exothermic reaction in QC get more or less intense as it ages? I don't know but maybe someone here does.
The old quik-clot isn't really like a standard drug like ASA or even relatively benign like IV fluids so without more data I'd be skeptical of using the same groundrules for determining when to use it.
Again if the alternative is death, give it a whirl.
Gutshot John
01-09-10, 11:18
Not QC but I have had a couple anecdotal reports from SOF colleagues that report Hemcons become stickier with age. Most were used in the 12-24 month beyond expiration.
Stickier as in more effective...or just stickier?
Do you know if it was the exothermic stuff?
Gutshot John
01-09-10, 11:36
Hemcon has never made an exothermic bandage that I am aware of, they always pitched the product as a cool version of hemostatic agent.
The report was that being stickier allowed it to adhere and clot in the wound better. So yes, more effective because it was stickier.
The unfortunate part is that Hemcon was pretty expensive and while it has gone down in price it is still pricey.
That's what I figured. If it's the non-exothermic stuff I'd have no problem at all using it past the expiration, especially if there was nothing else there, but it's good to know that it will keep for a long time.
I'm still curious about the old exothermic stuff and whether it will lost stability or efficacy.
Iraq Ninja
01-09-10, 13:21
For the Gen 1 QC-
I bet as long as you are getting heat, the stuff is good to go. As I remember it, the stuff absorbs water, thus concentrating the clotting factors. The absorption process into the QC is what causes the heat. Heat is a byproduct of absorption at this level.
Thus, if you have heat, you have absorption and thus removal of water and the concentration of the CF. It is really a simple system and I bet it will be good to go for a very long time as long as the powder's form is not changed through wear and tear.
I don't have any Gen 1 here, but if someone can try the following...
Grind up the granules into a fine dust and see if it still gives off heat when mixed with water.
Thinking outside the box now, what can a packet of Gen 1 QC be used for besides its intended purpose? What if you have a patient in shock? Or you need to give an IV, but you left your NS out all night in the cold.
Gutshot John
01-09-10, 13:23
I know that the old school QC will still react but well beyond its date but no other details. I used to use expired packs to demonstrate the reaction by pouring into a bottle with a bit of water in it. It was still enough to melt the bottle. Obviously this confirms nothing but the fact that it will react but who knows what byproducts it puts off, whether it is hotter or cooler, etc.
Mmmmm...do you have old/new stuff? Video camera? Maybe an experiment is in order. :cool:
I'm sure I have some expired packs of fairy dust lying around if you need a contribution to the effort. :D
All my new stuff is non exothermic.
Gutshot John
01-09-10, 14:34
Out of curiosity I dug out my old powder to see what the expiration dates were. I had bought it about 4 years ago so I was surprised it was still good.
Surprise it had been relabeled to extend expiration.
Lot 1659 original expiration 2009-12.
Lot 1659 relabeled extension to 2011-09.
Iraq Ninja
01-09-10, 16:01
Not QC but I have had a couple anecdotal reports from SOF colleagues that report Hemcons become stickier with age. Most were used in the 12-24 month beyond expiration.
There was something else reported, but I forget where I heard it. Something about hemcon failing to work after ninety minutes of use. I don't think my company is even buying replacements anymore. QC gauze is the popular choice.
is this the same stuff that REI is selling?
http://www.rei.com/product/770187
Same agent just in a tea bag rather than a gauze form.
IIRC they put the granules in the bag so it's easier for the next echelon of care to remove from the wound without the excessive disturbance that washing out straight granules cause.
Submariner
01-11-10, 06:36
Out of curiosity I dug out my old powder to see what the expiration dates were. I had bought it about 4 years ago so I was surprised it was still good.
Surprise it had been relabeled to extend expiration.
Lot 1659 original expiration 2009-12.
Lot 1659 relabeled extension to 2011-09.
What was the date prior to extension?
Gutshot John
01-11-10, 07:11
What was the date prior to extension?
12-2009
is this the same stuff that REI is selling?
http://www.rei.com/product/770187
Judging by the price and the fact that it's for external use I would say no.
Submariner
02-10-10, 14:44
For about the same price, there is 20% more treated gauze. Anyone know how much chemical is in each strip of gauze?
4 yards (12 ') x 3"
http://www.chinookmed.com/mas_assets/full/05168.jpg
3" x 10'
http://www.chinookmed.com/mas_assets/full/05184.jpg
thopkins22
02-11-10, 03:11
Judging by the price and the fact that it's for external use I would say no.
As evidenced by the picture Submariner posted, that's what QuikClot Combat Gauze says too.;)
That's what I figured. If it's the non-exothermic stuff I'd have no problem at all using it past the expiration, especially if there was nothing else there, but it's good to know that it will keep for a long time.
I'm still curious about the old exothermic stuff and whether it will lost stability or efficacy.
The old, granular Quikclot product should not "age" and the expiration date would not logically be an issue. The grains are from a mineral called 'Zeolite", which, if kept dry would not deteriorate over time. I have used it well past the expiration date and it worked just fine.
That said, I believe that the newer, gauze version is so much easier to use and has none of the exothermic qualities that I have replaced my granular stuff. Of course, you are only using Quikclot if things are really bad and you can't get the bleeding controlled any other way, so you use what you've got.
is this the same stuff that REI is selling?
http://www.rei.com/product/770187
Quikclot is available at REI, Dick's Sporting Goods, E-Bay, and any number of other sites. Just do a "google search" and lots of sites come up. I get mine directly from Quikclot.com and don't have to put up with the follow-up "sale" emails from the retailers who sell it.
As a testimonial, I have used Quikclot a number of times on myself, a neighbor and my mother. Both my elderly mother and I have heart conditions which require the use of the blood thinners. Any cut can be a major bleeding event. The only product we have found that stops the bleeding is Quikclot Sport gauze pads. I had some of the old, granular product and that worked extremely well, but they don't make it anymore. The gauze is just as effective and doesn't have the mess or risk of burning that the granular stuff did. My neighbor was using a recipricating saw and slashed his forearm while trimming some branches from his tree. I saw the accident and tried to get the bleeding controlled by using a tee shirt and pressure, but it would not stop. My wife ran and got a Quikclot package and I was able to get his bleeding under control before the EMT's got there. The stuff works and I think it should be in every first-aid kit.
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