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View Full Version : Possible Problem with old 3-D / Hornady



Smuckatelli
08-18-09, 08:10
I'm not looking to get sniped by all of the experts here, just giving heads up on a possible problem with a lot of remanufactured ammo. I have an email in to Hornady and the director to the PA high power team is calling them today. I'll let this board know the outcome when I get it. In the meantime I'll be getting the rifle over to Quantico and get a detailed inspection done. The email that I sent out is below:

A recap of yesterday’s range time. We were at Range 1 on Quantico. I was using the Colt 6920, I bought it new in May 2009. It has had 1922 rounds through it. Clear day temperature in the mid 90’s, firing under shade, ammo was not exposed to direct sunlight. I had been shooting for about 60 minutes; 100 rounds of Black Hills 77gr “Seconds” were fired before I switched over to Hornady 75gr Remanufactured ammo that Tereza was given at Camp Butner.

I had 2 mishaps before I secured firing:

First mishap occurred on the 23rd round of the Hornady. A load pop was heard, the magazine floorplate had come off of the magazine. The magazine was a Charles Daly 30 round mag. There appeared to be a double feed, I cleared the weapon field stripped it and did an inspection of the bore, chamber, gas tube, gas key, bolt carrier, bolt, extractor, ejector, and firing pin. No problems were noted, there was excessive carbon on the bolt behind the locking lugs that ended at the bolt carrier. After I cleared the weapon, I fired the remaining 3 rounds by single loading. I took a break from the weapon and spent some time with Tereza at this point. I began shooting again after 10 minutes, on the third round on a different Charles Daly magazine, the same pop was heard but this time there was no doubt that it was not a problem with the magazine. The floorplate, spring, and follower were launched forward of the firing line, a double feed occurred in the chamber, the remaining rounds were on the deck. The body of the magazine was still in the magazine well. I was shooting from the kneeling position, this enabled the internal parts of the magazine to ‘launch’ without hitting me. I conducted the same check and found no problems but I secured the weapon at that time until I can get an inspection completed on it.

My initial thoughts were that it had to be firing out of battery, this is what it looked like during the inspection with the amount of carbon that was on the bolt and remaining ammo. The only problem with this thought is that it only happened when I pulled the trigger, not when the weapon was cycling. I shoot left handed, I am positive that the bolt was seated. Because of the reputation of Hornady, I couldn’t conceive of a problem with the ammo. I talked to Tereza about where she had gotten the ammo, I this point I was thinking that maybe someone was doing reloads and using Hornady boxes. I called Mike and found out that this same type of mishap had occurred at Perry. I think this ammo was the first batch of remanufactured ammo ( 223 RIFLE 75gr. MATCH N/C #97571 lot #030177) that Hornady sold, I’m not 100% sure of that, all of the casings were stamp “LC,” Lake City with the NATO stamp.

I sent a note to Hornady at about 20:00 tonight, I’m going to try to get the weapon inspected sometime this week.

My concern now is that this may be bad ammo and it is circulating in the Junior Group.

SHIVAN
08-18-09, 08:45
Since this could be a dangerous situation that might effect people's lives I will allow it to remain open in direct opposition to our rules.

If anyone starts piling on Hornady, or the original poster, or makes me regret leaving this thread open as a PSA, I will start issuing infractions which will result in a nice vacation from the board.

Smuckatelli
08-18-09, 09:34
I just talked to a Hornady rep. The ammo is from 2003, in 2002 they took over a company when they began making remanufactured ammo. By the end of 2003 they completely assimulated the company and brought the process online with thier Q/A. This is the first time that they have heard of this issue.

The ammo in question is marked with the "3-D BRAND" on the box.

Once I get the inspection done by the match armorer I'll ship the remaining rounds to them. Hornady offered to replace the rifle if it fails the inspection, the magazine, and the rounds. The rep went above and beyond in the customer service aspect of the conversation.

The Junior CMP Teams and the Marine Rifle Team shoot a lot of Hornady, the quality of the ammunition is outstanding. This batch of ammo appears to have slipped through the cracks while they were starting up the remanufactured side of the house.

jwinch2
08-18-09, 09:48
Thanks for the heads up.

I have had a few issues here and there with the remanufactured stuff in the past. However they were few and far between and not brand specific that I can recall. It was literally before the internet was up and running so it was impossible to find out whether others were having similar issues or not. Since that time, I have largely stayed away from the remanufactured stuff, probably out of an overdeveloped sense of caution than anything.

I can't imagine a company like Hornady not stepping up to the plate and dealing with this right away. There reputation is far too good and they have spent far too long cultivating it for that to happen. Its good to hear that they are immediately being proactive on this one.

Thanks again and please let us know how this plays out. As you correctly noted, this may not be the ammo at all. But, if it is, people certainly need to know about it.

Also, thanks to the admins for leaving this open as I think that this is certainly an important issue.

Vic303
08-18-09, 09:51
Is the round with the serious shoulder dent one of the ones that doublefed? Or did it come from the box that way?

Glad to see Big Red offering to take care of you. They're a good company.

Thomas M-4
08-18-09, 09:53
I am a little confused:confused:you stated you had a double feed and the magazine floor plate came off. Did it pop a primer? Or did it KB?

Smuckatelli
08-18-09, 10:11
The dented round was a double feed.

There was a load pop when it fired.

The fired casing did extract out of the weapon.

The doublefeed came from the next two rounds in the mag, niether round made it into the chamber, they were wedged in the 12 & 6 o'clock position just inside the opening to the chamber.

No primer was popped, the spent casing showed no damage.

I think the double feed had to have occurred while the magazine was being blown out.

Thomas M-4
08-18-09, 10:24
The dented round was a double feed.

There was a load pop when it fired.

The fired casing did extract out of the weapon.

The doublefeed came from the next two rounds in the mag, niether round made it into the chamber, they were wedged in the 12 & 6 o'clock position just inside the opening to the chamber.

No primer was popped, the spent casing showed no damage.

I think the double feed had to have occurred while the magazine was being blown out.

Sounds similar to a problem I had last month with UMC I had 3 the recoil impulse felt soft and I could hear the buffer spring sponging in the tube 1 st one ejected and feed fine the 2nd time it did it I had a double feed and on the 3rd one I had a stove pipe.[ It looked like it was trying to double feed but the spent case flipped out just enough to stove pipe] I could feel the the bolt was cycling slow on all 3 shots I had about 20 rounds remaining and they all fired and cycled just fine. I have fired another 140 rounds NOT UMC since that trip no problem all feed and cycled as it should.
Except my magazine didn't come apart:confused:

ST911
08-18-09, 10:46
3D Ammunition doesn't exist anymore, having been acquired by Hornady.

Where old stocks of 3D are found, they should be avoided. Problems were not uncommon, especially in certain loads.

Hornady Ammunition, it's manufacture and QC, is GTG.

May I suggest an edit to the thread title for the benefit of Hornady?

6933
08-18-09, 11:57
Smuckatelli- Glad you didn't get hurt. Sounds like Hornady is living up to their great reputation and willing to do what it takes to make a customer happy. Too bad all companies don't operate like this.

Smuckatelli
08-18-09, 12:01
May I suggest an edit to the thread title for the benefit of Hornady?

I have no issues with editing the thread title, what do you suggest?

ST911
08-18-09, 17:10
I have no issues with editing the thread title, what do you suggest?

Something noting that it isn't Hornady, it's 3D Ammo.

chadbag
08-18-09, 17:18
Something noting that it isn't Hornady, it's 3D Ammo.

Well, since the box the ammo came in is labeled HORNADY, I would leave it as it is, or put HORNADY--3D BRAND. Not to slight Hornady but it is in their box. And people who have it will think of it as being Hornady

Smuckatelli
08-18-09, 18:28
I switched it to "Old 3-D / Hornady.

I love Hornady ammo....my love affair kinda clouded my judgement....should have never continued firing after the first mishap.

Payday is coming up on Saturday, I'll be buying some more Hornady.

apb2772
08-19-09, 23:17
My professional and personal issues with Hornady aside, anything labeled and or associated with the 3D brand should be seriously avoided.

Hornady has NEVER re-manufactured ammunition ever.

At best they liquidated whatever existing 3D product was left over once 3D was acquired.

When I worked at Hornady some of the guys on the Mfg floor would tell HORROR stories about the conditions they encountered when moving machinery out of 3D building. They told stories of multiple blown up guns shoved into odd places all over the facility, and NUMEROUS stray bullet holes that transected multiple OFFICES on premises. They told me about large OPEN containers of unlabeled powder left on tables and in break rooms right next to overflowing ashtrays....

Enough paint on this picture? :(

3D's re-manufactured ammunition was always hit or miss. In my experience with their product they had a really nasty habit of NOT resizing the surplus brass that they used. Really high and really deeply set primers were the norm. As far as consistency goes round to round it was all over the map. These are just a few examples. I used/tried quite a bit of the 3D product line, and the only re-manufactured ammo that I did not have trouble with from them through multiple guns was their .380 pistol fodder.

Again Hornady has NEVER re-manufactured ammunition ever.

I am glad that "The big red one" is willing to step up and make things right. They do try and work things out with people (nobody likes bad press), there are usually 2-3 firearms a month found cut up and tossed into the scrap bin in the maintenance area next to the giant green hydraulic hand press...

Good luck with your rifle.

--->APB