View Full Version : To SBR or not.... that is the question
I'm building my first AR and have the lower done. I'm really thinking of going ahead and making this a 10.5 or 12.5 shorty!!
Other than the paperwork and fee ($200) involved, is there any real drawback to having only one AR and having it be a shorty?
My uses will be Home Defense, some paper target shooting, but mostly plinking at anything up to 250-300 yards.
Pro's/con's?
Thanks guys!
For the uses that you stated, I would go with a 10.5". It will be fairly accurate at the distances mentioned depending on the quality of parts and the skill of the user. For the only serious role (home defense) the 10.5 will be excellent unless you live in a giant ranch with 200 yard indoor shots. YMMV:D
SBR- becuase you can, it's small evil and black. Not accurate enough for ya, buy another upper for longer range and use the shorty for fun.
Many of the smart people I know say that if they could have only one length AR15 it would be a 12.5".
That being said, I'm a sucker for light and short...I'd go 7.5". :p
Many of the smart people I know say that if they could have only one length AR15 it would be a 12.5".
That being said, I'm a sucker for light and short...I'd go 7.5". :p
I gotta think that would be a bit noisy!!! How good would that little thing shoot at say 100-200 yards?? 2MOA?
Thanks for the replies guys!
I gotta think that would be a bit noisy!!! How good would that little thing shoot at say 100-200 yards?? 2MOA?
Thanks for the replies guys!
Haha! I can't imagine. IIRC one of the MSTN guys posted that it sounds about like a .50 BMG without a Noveske KX3. They did report sub-MOA @ 100 yards from a Noveske, though...pretty impressive. I don't know anyone who uses a 7.5" for anything besides fun/testing, though.
Haha! I can't imagine. IIRC one of the MSTN guys posted that it sounds about like a .50 BMG without a Noveske KX3. They did report sub-MOA @ 100 yards from a Noveske, though...pretty impressive. I don't know anyone who uses a 7.5" for anything besides fun/testing, though.
If peoploe have problems with 10'5 functioning... how reliable are 7.5's!! Yikes....
Thats why I wonder... 10.5 or 12.5?? Maybe the 12.5's are more reliable?
If peoploe have problems with 10'5 functioning... how reliable are 7.5's!! Yikes....
Thats why I wonder... 10.5 or 12.5?? Maybe the 12.5's are more reliable?
The longer the barrel, the more velocity and more reliable the weapon becomes.
C4
The longer the barrel, the more velocity and more reliable the weapon becomes.
C4
So how reliable are the 10.5" guns? Is a Noveske 10.5 really any more reliable than say a LMT? Would a 12.5 be much more reliable than a 10.5 really??
So how reliable are the 10.5" guns? Is a Noveske 10.5 really any more reliable than say a LMT? Would a 12.5 be much more reliable than a 10.5 really??
How reliable a 10.5 depends on many different things (ammo, mags, proper lube and maintaining the extractor and other springs).
A SS barrel can not be more reliable than a chrome lined barrel. A 12.5 will be more reliable than a 10.5. A 14.5 will be more reliable than a 12.5.
C4
You guys in no ban states make me jealous...I dont get post a poll about going SBR or not :mad:
Around here, the only drawback is that the biggest outdoor range close to me doesn't allow anything NFA. The only other potential problem I could think of would be if you wanted to go take a class in a state that doesn't allow NFA.
With that said, you could always buy another upper later if you wanted to travel to one of those god-forsake places.:p
You guys in no ban states make me jealous...I dont get post a poll about going SBR or not :mad:
Yes, it will be cool to get a SBR... but I really wish I could also get a silencer!!! Not legal here in MN.
olds442tyguy
02-06-07, 15:33
I've been desperately craving one lately, so my vote goes for a 10.5".
SinnFéinM1911
02-06-07, 16:35
I'd go with the 10.5".
It has gotten a really bad name, and most of it started back in the late 90's early 2000's when Crane NSWC would get 14.5" bbl's from Colt and cut them down themselves. After they were cut, they never properly ported the Gas Port, and the "reliability" issues occured. With the proper Port size a 10.5" will run just fine, and yes even without a Krink.
I have a few Powerpoints from the testing done at NSWC Crane regarding the 10.5 (after the port issue was worked out) and it clearly shows that it runs just as good as a 14.5" or 16" bbl.
Brett
Austin_Nichols
02-06-07, 23:42
Around here, the only drawback is that the biggest outdoor range close to me doesn't allow anything NFA. The only other potential problem I could think of would be if you wanted to go take a class in a state that doesn't allow NFA.
With that said, you could always buy another upper later if you wanted to travel to one of those god-forsake places.:p
No! That wouldn't help because the rifle is still registered as an SBR and is a NFA weapon regardless of the upper used. In a non NFA state you would still be up shit's creek. Of course, someone would actually have to run the serial number to know it was registered....:D
ETA UPDATE: Keeping in mind that this was written 4(!) years ago, there is updated info available from ATF here: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/national-firearms-act-short-barreled-rifles-shotguns.html#interstate-transportation My thanks to Iraqgunz for the link.
Get a 11.5". It's a good compromise between the handiness of 10.5 but without the usual reliability problems.
I have a CMMG 11.5" and it runs great.
What is SBR?
What is the shortest barrel you an have as a civilian and not be breaking any law?
SinnFéinM1911
02-07-07, 08:45
16 "...
or
14.5 with a pinned or fixed Flash hider or muzzle break.
but what is "sbr"?
Short Barreled Rifle
Not to high jack, but how do I get started in that sort of thing ? Where do I file the paper work and pay the $200 tax ? Id love to have a 10.5 upper. Does the tax have to be paid once or yearly ?
It's stands for Short Barreled Rifle. It's an NFA item which requires applying for a tax stamp through the BATFE
I say go for it. I'd love to make one myself but the Sherriff in my county won't sign off on it.
I say go for it. I'd love to make one myself but the Sherriff in my county won't sign off on it.
Just go the "Trust" route then.. you dont need his or anyones permission.
Using quicken willmaker I hadthe trust docs done up in ~10 minutes. I'm doing it because I don't like paying for fingerprint cards or for the sheriff to sign paperwork.
Just go the "Trust" route then.. you dont need his or anyones permission.
What exactly is the "Trust" route?
exactly? I'll tell you what it is loosely- it's a Revocable Living Trust- a legal entity that can "own" property. NFA items can be transferred to it and since it's a legal entity like a corporation without a face, background or fingerprints, none of the usual hoops have to be jumped through when filling out the Forms...
What exactly is the "Trust" route?
Search the NFA forum here and you'll have all the info you need for doing a Trust.
Good luck...
Renegade04
02-08-07, 18:59
Just Do It!
http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m8/jamesrea_2006/008_83.jpg
My DPMS Panther Carbine 11.5" SBR
Laws aside, there is nothing I want to do with an AR15 that I cannot do with a 12.5, and that includes shooting to 500m.
I prefer the 16 for nothing more than sight radious.
I prefer the 16 for nothing more than sight radious.
A 16" carbine has the same sight radius as a 10.5".
DOH! :D
Hey, he said "radious" not "radius" so you don't know what he means for sure... ;)
Does a 10.5" barrel effect the gas system any ?
Rayrevolver
02-09-07, 00:11
Could I get away with a 12.5" barrel and Noveske KX3 and not get the stamp? The LEOs at the range informed me that you cannot get the SBR here in Seattle.
Doing the math, that equals 15.78", which seems close enough to 16" for government work.
Doing the math, that equals 15.78", which seems close enough to 16" for government work.
This is a joke, right?
Search the NFA forum here and you'll have all the info you need for doing a Trust.
Good luck...
You can also pick up the March issue of Small Arms Review and find an article written by the attorney that set up my trust. I would STRONGLY suggest using an attorney for this, errornet babble to the contrary should be ignored.
SinnFéinM1911
02-09-07, 07:05
Could I get away with a 12.5" barrel and Noveske KX3 and not get the stamp? The LEOs at the range informed me that you cannot get the SBR here in Seattle.
Doing the math, that equals 15.78", which seems close enough to 16" for government work.
Would you really want ot chance it ??
Submariner
02-09-07, 07:11
If you check, I think you will find that Noveske has a 13.7" barrel with a permanently mounted KX3 that makes 16 inches. The Ruby Ridge incident began over a less than 16 in barrel that wasn't "close enough for government work."
Rayrevolver
02-09-07, 12:45
It was a half joke.
I just thought it was funny that you could buy an AR-15 pistol and be legal. But then put a stock on it and all of the sudden you are a criminal. This just doesn't compute.
If I could legally get an SBR I would try out the 12.5" first.
I would actually choose a 14.5, but that was not a choice. I have noticed the fad of SBR's but many people are just shooting them in open field environments. unless you are solely using it for entry why slow down the round and curb its performance? If you are going 12 or shorter, make the jump to 6.8. Then you will at least meet the performance gap.
Anyone bounding and peeling with an SBR outdoors is doing it for the cool factor.
BB
I would actually choose a 14.5, but that was not a choice. I have noticed the fad of SBR's but many people are just shooting them in open field environments. unless you are solely using it for entry why slow down the round and curb its performance? If you are going 12 or shorter, make the jump to 6.8. Then you will at least meet the performance gap.
Anyone bounding and peeling with an SBR outdoors is doing it for the cool factor.
BB
...and even if that's true, why do you care? Quite frankly, if they're only ever shooting the rifle at the range, what differenc does it make if they "curb its performance"? Hell, if you really think about the possible practical applications for a carbine in a civilian non-LE role, the performance of any halfway decent rounds in the shorter barrel would be more than adequate at any sort of distance where such a person might legally, ethically, and morally employ a carbine at all.
Personally, I want a suppressed 5.56 that is the same OAL, and as close as possible to the weight, as my unsuppressed rifle. By buying a Colt 6933 and an Ops 15th model I'll achieve just that.
But even if I only wanted a 5.56 for the "cool factor", it's my money and my business.
SBR's are handy for people who want ease of transport and storage in a discreet "rifle" case.
The 6.8SPC and 6.5 Grendel work real well in 12 inch barrels. For a home defense rifle, in a defensive barricade position you could use darn near anything so you may not want to deal with ATF paperwork and the transport across state lines issue.
However, if you want to shoot silenced (hearing safe, not really silent ;)) and don't want something long enough to be mounted on a battleship, an SBR and a silencer can be mated to fit a standard 16 inch form factor. You also don't have all that weight so far out which preserves some handling quality.
SBR's come into a class all their own in 9mm, 300 Whisper, 338 Spectre, and 458 Socom. The jury is still out on 30HRT SBR use.
I've got an RO635 9mm upper and having the barrel end just after the FSB is very nice. Adding that to the fact that my 9mm suppressor and TROS adapter bring it to just under the length of a 16" with A2, it's VERY nice.
Could one of you guys who have a 10.5" with a colt or CTR stock, measure the overall length and tell me what it is, with the stock collapsed?
Thanks!
I've got an RO635 9mm which I believe is just over 10". It's on a Noveske lower with whichever extension they use. I can measure it with a CTR.
ic_guerrero
02-17-07, 23:32
...I have a few Powerpoints from the testing done at NSWC Crane regarding the 10.5...
Are these still avialable? If so can you email them to me. Thanks.
I went w/ a 10.5" SBR
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b51/ic_guerrero/Mk18Mod0.jpg
Rogueplayer
02-24-07, 11:50
I went w/ a 10.5" SBR
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b51/ic_guerrero/Mk18Mod0.jpg
Awesome.
Are these still avialable? If so can you email them to me. Thanks.
I went w/ a 10.5" SBR
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b51/ic_guerrero/Mk18Mod0.jpg
As did I :D
http://www.davidagusti.com/nfa/IMG_4557.jpg
how much did that LMT 10.5 run you? and did you buy that as one unit or did you buy the upper and pay tax stamp that way?
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