Carbine Recoil Managment Techniques?

[BushmasterFanBoy]

I've been spending some time honing my carbine skills, and I've got to say, I've evolved my technique quite a bit over the last few months.

Currently, I'd probably describe my shooting style as a "Costa-esque" method. I use my support arm extended, not quite locked out, but parallel to the bore, which helps incredibly, IMHO. My firing arm is locked in with elbow tucked straight down. I was a bit hesitant to try this style since it felt awkward to keep my support arm so high. But I saw that I was far less likely to pull shots left or right, as I was better able to pull the gun rearward w/o pressure to any particular side. A pretty squared up, aggressive stance, with wide footing helps gives it a bit of stability as well.

So, far, I've tried the old magwell grip and square to target method, the slightly bladed and outstretched grip method, and now this. Of those three, obviously I like the current method best, but my technique can change like flavors of the month if there's a performance benefit. :p

What are most of you guys using as far as grip and stance technique? I've found that my times go down the better I can control the gun, and my grip and stance is by far the largest element in driving the gun.

[NCPatrolAR]

slight blade, support arm as far forward as possible (support elbow pointing down), support hand wrapped around handguard with thumb across the 12 o'clock rail

[caporider]

I've been spending some time honing my carbine skills, and I've got to say, I've evolved my technique quite a bit over the last few months.

Currently, I'd probably describe my shooting style as a "Costa-esque" method. I use my support arm extended, not quite locked out, but parallel to the bore, which helps incredibly, IMHO. My firing arm is locked in with elbow tucked straight down. I was a bit hesitant to try this style since it felt awkward to keep my support arm so high. But I saw that I was far less likely to pull shots left or right, as I was better able to pull the gun rearward w/o pressure to any particular side. A pretty squared up, aggressive stance, with wide footing helps gives it a bit of stability as well.

So, far, I've tried the old magwell grip and square to target method, the slightly bladed and outstretched grip method, and now this. Of those three, obviously I like the current method best, but my technique can change like flavors of the month if there's a performance benefit. :p

What are most of you guys using as far as grip and stance technique? I've found that my times go down the better I can control the gun, and my grip and stance is by far the largest element in driving the gun.

If you're tucking yourself "around" your carbine, so the buttstock is not riding high in the pocket, I think you have the stance required for best controllability. Doing it the way you've described also makes it easier to transition between targets (less overshoot).

[TheDarkOne]

I am new to the game, was on the range tonight and had some questions of how better to control recoil. This thread seems like the place.

Applicable Weapon System Components:
16" 1:9 barrel
Aimpoint T1
Vortex Flash Hider

Shooting right handed, I am standing isosceles, shooting "Costa-esque" as you guys describe it. Good athletic stance, stock low on the body as possible, etc. I was shooting 2 eyes open, not blinking, and was able to see the dot jump up and to the right at about 1.5'oclock. No matter what I tried, I could not keep that dot down where I wanted it, and I am not a weakling by any means. I see guys like Costa, Haley, and Lamb shooting so fast and getting A zone hits so I have a feeling I am experiencing more jump than they are. Is this normal, is it a stance thing, lack of compensator, or just something that I will come with more time on the gun? As a side note, I shot a few shots left handed and noticed the same amount of jump but this time at about 10.5'oclock. Please Help.

[Gutshot John]

I see guys like Costa, Haley, and Lamb shooting so fast and getting A zone hits so I have a feeling I am experiencing more jump than they are.

Those guys each have tens if not hundreds of thousands of rounds downrange, you're not going to be anywhere near that good for a while so it's not a fair comparison to you. That's may be the ideal, but for most of us its like walking on water. You have to learn to walk before you can run.

Some things that work for me:

I like the "Magpul Hold" a lot as it improved both my speed and stability not only while shooting but also moving. The closer my support hand moves to my body, the less stability I have. Similarly I pull the butt stock out as far as is practical. This usually means all the way out and one click in. At a Viking Tactics class, several guys I shot with remarked on what a difference extending the buttstock made in terms of stability.

What you really need are training and practice (in that order). It's not a gear issue (or at least the gear you mentioned) and it's not going to get solved overnight. That said you've got your head straight and at least appears that you're ahead of the game. You're recognizing defects and trying to correct them. Just keep putting one foot in front of the other and get to classes and practice when you can.

[TheDarkOne]

Thanks for the pep talk, that is what I was afraid of. ;)

Is this particular directional muzzle flip the same with everyone? It is so consistent with me that it make me wonder if that is just how an AR recoils. I hear instructors say to keep 'driving the gun to the target'. Is this what they mean? Are they bouncing out to 1 o'clock and then back to the target over and over?

Either way, what does your dot do when you shoot from a standing position? I see videos of people shooting, but what I would really love to see is what things look like through their optics. That way I could have a goal of what it attainable.

One thing, my stock is almost all the way in, I will have to experiment with extending it a little.

The one piece of equipment I am wondering about is the flash hider. I don't think it gives me any compensation, so I was thinking about switching it out for something else. That Vortex does what it is supposed to but it's not like I am using a NVD or am at risk of giving away my position; (paper does not fire back). Any recommendation on that front? Nothing too crazy, I don't want to kill the guy next to me or anything, just get things a little more controllable.

[BushmasterFanBoy]

Thanks for the pep talk, that is what I was afraid of. ;)

Is this particular directional muzzle flip the same with everyone? It is so consistent with me that it make me wonder if that is just how an AR recoils. I hear instructors say to keep 'driving the gun to the target'. Is this what they mean? Are they bouncing out to 1 o'clock and then back to the target over and over?

Either way, what does your dot do when you shoot from a standing position? I see videos of people shooting, but what I would really love to see is what things look like through their optics. That way I could have a goal of what it attainable.

One thing, my stock is almost all the way in, I will have to experiment with extending it a little.

The one piece of equipment I am wondering about is the flash hider. I don't think it gives me any compensation, so I was thinking about switching it out for something else. That Vortex does what it is supposed to but it's not like I am using a NVD or am at risk of giving away my position; (paper does not fire back). Any recommendation on that front? Nothing too crazy, I don't want to kill the guy next to me or anything, just get things a little more controllable.

The directional muzzle jump is normal. The question is how do you minimize it's overall movement (reducing the time it takes to get back on target) and how do you grip most effectively to push the sights back on target faster. This is the holy grail that shooters look for, and while I'm no pro, its taken me a while to get to where I am, and I'm still looking. Even Travis and Chris look for ways to better drive the gun.

Using a different grip with the support hand can minimize the directional recoil, but as a general rule, right handers shooting rifles will see jump up and to the right, and lefties will see it jump up and to the left.

[DTHN2LGS]

Thanks for the pep talk, that is what I was afraid of. ;)

Is this particular directional muzzle flip the same with everyone? It is so consistent with me that it make me wonder if that is just how an AR recoils. I hear instructors say to keep 'driving the gun to the target'. Is this what they mean? Are they bouncing out to 1 o'clock and then back to the target over and over?

Either way, what does your dot do when you shoot from a standing position? I see videos of people shooting, but what I would really love to see is what things look like through their optics. That way I could have a goal of what it attainable.

One thing, my stock is almost all the way in, I will have to experiment with extending it a little.

The one piece of equipment I am wondering about is the flash hider. I don't think it gives me any compensation, so I was thinking about switching it out for something else. That Vortex does what it is supposed to but it's not like I am using a NVD or am at risk of giving away my position; (paper does not fire back). Any recommendation on that front? Nothing too crazy, I don't want to kill the guy next to me or anything, just get things a little more controllable.


I use the PWS FSC556 and it helps without being too loud.

[Surf]

I sometimes hate to say Costa or Haley like as I have been shooting with a similar stance for much longer than I have ever heard of them. Mine derrived from a blend of my skeet and trap days and carbine training over many years. However, it is a good thing that efforts from the Magpul crew are making many people much better shooters.

Having said that, I keep the stock more inbound to the centerline of my body instead of "in the pocket". A more inbound hold allows for even better recoil management. Primary side with elbow tucked. Support side, arm near lockout with a slight bend at the elbow. My support grip can be described similar to that of a good thumbs forward pistol grip where my wrist is locked downward, close to 45* and I do not wrap my thumb over, but I do use a thumbs forward towards the target hold. While not necessary, I tend to use a stubby VFG that I pretty much only make contact with my little finger and ring finger. I guess the reference "point idea" is on the mark, however I will at times, use the VFG for rearward pressure. The amount of pressure is situation dependant.

Stance is huge and the athletic linebacker stance is about the best description. Under certain shooting situations I will drop the rear foot back slightly farther, while keeping my upper torso more or less square to the target. The tendency to blade slightly at this point is great, but I find better recoil management keeping more squared up. I try to make the recoil pass into my body as close to my centerline as possible while trying to keep a fairly even distribution of body weight from side to side, while trying to maintain forward lean more onto the balls of my feet.

[Evil Bert]

So for a right handed shooter, is the TDC of the A2, BC, 3T, etc supposed to be at the 1 o'clock position (as viewed down the barrel) and the 11 o'clock position for a left handed shooter to help with muzzle flip? This is how I understand it. I am assuming the same for the BattleComp. Is that the case?

[6933]

Make sure to be applying pressure rearward so the support arm/hand is pushing the rifle into the shoulder. This helps with recoil and gives better control of the gun.

[RogerinTPA]

My support arm is bent to the left and slightly downward, support hand is far forward as possible and with the VFG, pulling the weapon into right side of my pec. My right shooting hand is just grasping the pistol grip firmly, like a handshake, but loose enough to allow a consistent trigger pull without snatching it. Left leg is one step forward of the right, with the upper body leaning into the weapon. It helps when doing the 2x2x2, 1-5 drills and shooting on the move. You can definitely tell when your position isn't solid, since the rounds will be following the recoil, instead of the red dot.

[Hersh]

Great thread!

Today I had a chance to run a friend's gun with a setup that was new to me. It's a 16" gun with a DD FSP(?) type rail that extends past and around in front of the FSB and a Magpul AFG.

Running the butt stock one click back from the receiver put my support hand slightly in front of the fsb while not completely locking out the elbow. I've seen this type setup and always thought it looked like the shooter's arm was over extended, but it worked really well especially on transitions!

As you might expect, I heard more than one, "I told you so!" 'Time to go rail shopping.

[Surf]

No wonder I didn't remember posting in this thread, it is over a year old. :)

Still relevant however and I will add this. Since the last thread I have switched grips from a VFG to an AFG. In the past I did not prefer or use the "C" clamp type of grip with my stubby VFG's because it was uncomfortable for my style. However with the hand placement or more correctly the angle at which the VFG naturally places my hand I now comfortably use a thumb over "C" clamp grip which has improved my performance. I also place the AFG where I can wrap the index finger around the front of the finger stop.

[LOKNLOD]

So for a right handed shooter, is the TDC of the A2, BC, 3T, etc supposed to be at the 1 o'clock position (as viewed down the barrel) and the 11 o'clock position for a left handed shooter to help with muzzle flip? This is how I understand it. I am assuming the same for the BattleComp. Is that the case?

I don't believe either the BattleComp or PWS brakes need to be specially clocked for handedness.

[BLACK LION]

I've been spending some time honing my carbine skills, and I've got to say, I've evolved my technique quite a bit over the last few months.

Currently, I'd probably describe my shooting style as a "Costa-esque" method. I use my support arm extended, not quite locked out, but parallel to the bore, which helps incredibly, IMHO. My firing arm is locked in with elbow tucked straight down. I was a bit hesitant to try this style since it felt awkward to keep my support arm so high. But I saw that I was far less likely to pull shots left or right, as I was better able to pull the gun rearward w/o pressure to any particular side. A pretty squared up, aggressive stance, with wide footing helps gives it a bit of stability as well.

So, far, I've tried the old magwell grip and square to target method, the slightly bladed and outstretched grip method, and now this. Of those three, obviously I like the current method best, but my technique can change like flavors of the month if there's a performance benefit. :p

What are most of you guys using as far as grip and stance technique? I've found that my times go down the better I can control the gun, and my grip and stance is by far the largest element in driving the gun.

I love training but one can never truly know how things will come together once under the dynamic stress and duress of a "two way range". I have evolved over time and have modified my grip over and over to meet todays challenges and to find a "universal" method that will translate from rig to rig.
It was not until a recent FOF(airsoft) incursion at the USTC facility in Otay Mesa that I really noticed things coming together and falling apart.
The bottom line for me is:
The MWG is decent for static shooting but does not tailor to unconventional positions and dynamic shooting. I found that those utilizing this grip while trying to shoot from cover/concealment had to overexpose themselves just to get the gun up so a shot can be taken without shooting the cover itself. Those guys werequickly dispatched. Also, regardless of how square to the target one is and how tightly tucked the support elbow is against the torso it is still IMHO a detrimental option to utilize when you are being shot at....especially in a CQB situation.
Now, locking my support arm out as forward as possible is not an ideal grip either IMO. It puts allot of strain on the muscles and tendons of the forearm and leads to fatigue faster, especially when doing allot of different transitions and taking dynamic shooting positions. I have longer arms than some of the dudes pushing the far forward grip so I have found a happy medium in the middle. I dont use a FUG as I have grown comfortable choking the handguard/barrel and resting on a handstop type device.
From what I have experienced, all of the shit comes out in the wash and one will find what works and what doesnt while attempting to not get shot and still effectively persue and neutralize threats.
The magwell grip does not work well when rolling the gun over on its side.

[BLACK LION]

I sometimes hate to say Costa or Haley like as I have been shooting with a similar stance for much longer than I have ever heard of them. Mine derrived from a blend of my skeet and trap days and carbine training over many years. However, it is a good thing that efforts from the Magpul crew are making many people much better shooters.

Having said that, I keep the stock more inbound to the centerline of my body instead of "in the pocket". A more inbound hold allows for even better recoil management. Primary side with elbow tucked. Support side, arm near lockout with a slight bend at the elbow. My support grip can be described similar to that of a good thumbs forward pistol grip where my wrist is locked downward, close to 45* and I do not wrap my thumb over, but I do use a thumbs forward towards the target hold. While not necessary, I tend to use a stubby VFG that I pretty much only make contact with my little finger and ring finger. I guess the reference "point idea" is on the mark, however I will at times, use the VFG for rearward pressure. The amount of pressure is situation dependant.

Stance is huge and the athletic linebacker stance is about the best description. Under certain shooting situations I will drop the rear foot back slightly farther, while keeping my upper torso more or less square to the target. The tendency to blade slightly at this point is great, but I find better recoil management keeping more squared up. I try to make the recoil pass into my body as close to my centerline as possible while trying to keep a fairly even distribution of body weight from side to side, while trying to maintain forward lean more onto the balls of my feet.

Funny you mention the "more inbound" position of the stock. I have found my stock placement has evolved to somewhere between the sternum and nipple...not in the "pocket" just the the side of the shoulder. Its easier to get over the gun with it further in towards the center, for me anyways.