View Full Version : IDPA
I searched and came up with alot of threads but they were either about targets or random posts.
Just wondering how many people are involved, what calibers and mag capacities you use, what holsters you use?
Jay Cunningham
08-22-09, 09:03
In my *very limited* experience with IDPA I simply swapped magazines from my carry ammo to my range ammo. Most other guys I saw there took their guns out of a box and put them away when they were done. I simply showed up and left exactly the same way - carrying.
I carry and shoot a Glock 19 in training coursework and for IDPA. I carry one spare magazine (like I always do) and I use a Raven Concealment holster set up for IWB (soft loops) and I use either a Custom Carry Concepts or a Ready Tactical kydex emergency reload pouch.
Now that I CCW with an AIWB holster, I don't shoot IDPA because they don't allow appendix carry. Prior to that, I've shot IDPA with a variety of Beretta, Glock, Smith & Wesson, and SIG pistols. Holsters were always IWB behind the strong side hip, either leather or kydex.
Magazine capacity is dictated by your Division and unless your mags won't hold enough rounds, you cannot opt to load more *or* less. SSP & ESP are 10rd, CDP is 8rd.
I am with katar. I find the discussions of "what holster for IDPA" to be counter to the intent of the game, and certainly to what I hope to get from it. I show up at the range with my carry gun on me, change the mags out in my pouches and gun, add a pouch to my belt for admin stuff, and shoot the match.
Robb Jensen
08-22-09, 11:12
I am with katar. I find the discussions of "what holster for IDPA" to be counter to the intent of the game, and certainly to what I hope to get from it. I show up at the range with my carry gun on me, change the mags out in my pouches and gun, add a pouch to my belt for admin stuff, and shoot the match.
The only DQ I've ever received was for showing up at an IDPA match with a holstered loaded concealed carry gun.....go figure. This was at a state of the art multi million dollar political lobbyist range headquarted in NoVA where concealed carry is allowed/permitted except for match days as I found out. 1st rule of the gunfight is to have a loaded gun right? ;)
When I shot IPDA I used a Blade Tech or DeSantis belt holster with either a Glock 17, 31 or 34. I still considered it a game but many of the participants didn't. One of these years I'll shoot a classifier to make my goal of being Master. I think now that I shoot a M&P Pro and a M&P45 and have had the grips textured I have to shoot in ESP and CDP division because texturing isn't allowed but grip tape is for SSP........another weird rule.
Most IDPA matches are run cold. All major sanctioned matches must be run cold. Therefore, showing up with a loaded gun is often cause for DQ. I don't like the rule, but it is a rule.
Some people shoot IDPA for its practice value, others shoot it 100% as a competition to win. Both groups get something out of it. While I always fall into the first category, I do understand the pure competitors. IDPA is, after all, a game. It has a score, and it has winners. It's like a marathon. Some runners show up just to say they finished, some show up to finish first.
Something to keep in mind if you're just starting in the sport: If you are there for the practice/practical value, then don't worry about the competitors. If you don't care about your score, then you shouldn't care about their scores, either. If you do care about the fact that you're getting your ass handed to you by the competitive-minded guys, then you need to reassess whether you're really as purely tactical as you want others to believe.
Most IDPA matches are run cold. All major sanctioned matches must be run cold. Therefore, showing up with a loaded gun is often cause for DQ. I don't like the rule, but it is a rule.
Some people shoot IDPA for its practice value, others shoot it 100% as a competition to win. Both groups get something out of it. While I always fall into the first category, I do understand the pure competitors. IDPA is, after all, a game. It has a score, and it has winners. It's like a marathon. Some runners show up just to say they finished, some show up to finish first.
Something to keep in mind if you're just starting in the sport: If you are there for the practice/practical value, then don't worry about the competitors. If you don't care about your score, then you shouldn't care about their scores, either. If you do care about the fact that you're getting your ass handed to you by the competitive-minded guys, then you need to reassess whether you're really as purely tactical as you want others to believe.
On the last IPSC match a USTC, they had a course in the house. I remember telling a shooter who has only been taught the correct way of negotiating the house. Of course they allow walk throughs, I told him that remember-decide how you want to shoot this- as a game or doing it right, if done right, you will be last.
Jay Cunningham
08-22-09, 12:05
Personally I shoot without regard for my score, i.e. I try to use it as a training tool. My scores seem to fall in the middle of the pack. I did notice that I tend to have the least number of dropped shots out of all participants.
I have seen some guys better than me doing it pretty much in a sound fashion and I was inspired and motivated by them. I also saw guys that gamed it in such a ridiculous and extreme fashion that they were actually pirouetting on one leg and almost falling onto the ground because they were running through so fast.
Telecomtodd
08-22-09, 12:06
Todd G is absolutely right. I fall into the first category - I like to shoot USPSA, see my friends, try to gradually improve my skills, and then go cook hamburgs to sell to the other competitors to raise funds for our Junior teams.
If you want to go shoot at our club's monthly matches and come to win, you'll have an even chance of shooting against Todd Jarrett, Chris Tilley, and Bragg's Delta team members, as well as a stellar group of A-shooters. One month I was really pleased with my 28 second time on one stage until a woman shooter did a bang-up job in 10.8 seconds. I was feeling blue until Tilley hollered over asking her time - he did it in 7.9 seconds. Time to go make burgers!
We'll have anywhere from 70 to 150 shooters firing at 7 different stages on three ranges.
From what I've seen, most production shooters are firing 9mm, most limited shooters are firing .40, and most open shooters are firing .38 Super. That's not fixed in stone, but what I'm seeing on the ranges.
I'm shooting open class only so I can use my larger mags, compensated barrel, and if Grant answers my e-mail, want to put a RDS on my S&W 9FS.
Robb Jensen
08-22-09, 12:06
Of course they allow walk throughs, I told him that remember-decide how you want to shoot this- as a game or doing it right, if done right, you will be last.
And that's the other side of the pendulum.
I've heard of some matches up near Philly PA where they don't use timers. They just have a guy with a stop watch making sure you don't over the par time. These are very small matches and don't ever get bigger as they view themselves as 'tactical'. This is fine in my opinion but they really shouldn't be called matches as this would be more like small training course but with a score sheet. As you know I like training and competition.
mike benedict
08-22-09, 12:47
I shoot IDPA and have since its inception and I shot IPSC for 18 years before that.
I shoot in all the IDPA classes from time to time just to keep my familiarity with a lot of different pistols current.
Mostly these days I shoot a M&P Pro in SSP Master class (one of my favorite pistols of all time)
I use one of own Talon Tactical A10 straight drop holsters and 2 single mag pouches.
I run the Deliverance IDPA club in Talking Rock Georgia
I think IDPA is a great way to improve your pistol skills
We run a real laid back pistol match, If you screw up a stage or have gun problems we just let you shoot it over.
So if Todd wants to use an appendix carry holster at my match he would be welcome. Unless he beats me then hew would be DQed:)
Mike
citizensoldier16
08-22-09, 13:01
SSP Expert here...been shooting IDPA for about 10 years now. Started at SSP Novice and worked my way up. I shoot a bone stock G17 loaded with factory ammo (NOT reloads meeting minimum power factor!) in an ancient Kydex belt holster.
I find the scenarios helpful for combat shooting practice, but sometimes the rules do get in the way. It's a great way to spend a Saturday afternoon with some other shooters in the midst of a friendly competition.
I shoot IDPA and have since its inception and I shot IPSC for 18 years before that.
I shoot in all the IDPA classes from time to time just to keep my familiarity with a lot of different pistols current.
Mostly these days I shoot a M&P Pro in SSP Master class (one of my favorite pistols of all time)
I use one of own Talon Tactical A10 straight drop holsters and 2 single mag pouches.
I run the Deliverance IDPA club in Talking Rock Georgia
I think IDPA is a great way to improve your pistol skills
We run a real laid back pistol match, If you screw up a stage or have gun problems we just let you shoot it over.
So if Todd wants to use an appendix carry holster at my match he would be welcome. Unless he beats me then hew would be DQed:)
Mike
That just doesn't sound right
Just to be clear, we are required to enter and leave the park that our range is in with unloaded firearms, and all guns must enter and leave the range area cased.
What I do is unload and clear the gun at the stoplight before entering the park, and then before I get out of the car and walk to the range I stick it in my range bag. Or I put the cleared gun in the center console and have a spare, identical gun in the range bag already.
;)
mike benedict
08-22-09, 20:23
That just doesn't sound right
If you have ever seen the neighborhood you would think the club is correctly named
Most all ranges on match day are cold ranges. I shoot IDPA and USPSA. In IDPA I use my carry rigs for SSP, ESP, CDP & SSR. For ESR I use a safariland belt holster - I don't carry my S&W625. In USPSA, I use my carry rigs for Prod, L-10 and single stack. For limited, I use a bladeteck belt loop holster and for revolver I use my IDPA stuff. I don't shoot open.
I shoot SSP (M&P9) using a Comp-Tac belt slide holster (OWB) with 17 round mags downloaded to 10 as per IDPA rules for the Division. Tomorrow I may just use the IWB rig because it's what I carry regularly. I use OWB because I like to be competitive. Did I need to mention that I use factory FMJ ammo instead of my JHP defensive ammo? (spirit of the sport also requires IDPA use "full charge ammo" but how many of us who pay for our own ammo can afford to play by that intent of the sport???) As mentioned previously, there are purists and gamers. You get to decide upon your level of participation.
Regarding the side topic in this thread: As a Safety Officer and CCW holder, I appreciate the fact that NO ONE comes to the range with a hot weapon. Having seen far more new shooters and even authorized CCW holders with "less-than-proficient" gun handling skills, will tell all of us on here that any of you who elect to play organized games such as IDPA, USPSA, etc. can deal with being cold for the sake of sport when there are safety obligations.
-B
Robb Jensen
08-22-09, 21:47
That DQ happened at my 2nd match ever in mid-2004.
I found out "run what you brung" doesn't really mean that literally.
I guess I was used to drag racing meaning you race what you drove there in, not what's in/on the trailer.
The cold range policy is easily handled for those who choose to carry and shoot with the same gear. In addition to IDPA cold range rule, most if not all gun clubs have a cold range rule.
Our wise former match directory (headhunter) designated a loading and unloading area for the concealed carriers who shoot what they carry. This is not to be confused with the "safe area" where people can tinker with their guns or dry fire, etc. There is no ammo allowed in "safe area" .
When you arrive, when you get out of your car, proceed to the loading/unloading area. Make your gun safe and holster it. You're done. Go deal with registration, bs-ing and shoot the match. When you're ready to leave the range for the day (match is done), go to the same area, make your gun hot, get in the car and go home.
Everybody is happy and no one gets DQ (unless he/she make a loud noise with the gun in such area).
It's usually wise if you show up at a new facility (i.e. out of state match or not your regular club match) to check with the match director for their policy BEFORE you arrive.
I told him that remember-decide how you want to shoot this- as a game or doing it right, if done right, you will be last.
And that's what separates someone whose focus is on being prepared for a fight, from someone whose focus is winning a game. Back when I was shooting IDPA seriously, I'd always get ribbing from the guys at the Carolina Cup because of the way I'd shot a few stages over the years. Things like backing farther away from targets when you didn't have to, or finding cover where you didn't have to, etc.
I was lucky to make the halfway mark among the other Master-class shooters, but I felt like I wasn't compromising on my skill set. At least, that was the excuse I used for making around the halfway mark among the other Master-class shooters. :cool:
At Nationals, I even went so far as to shoot my carry ammo the years I was using 9mm. In fact, one year they couldn't chrono my 115gr +p+ load properly and finally just took my word for the fact that it made the power floor.
So if Todd wants to use an appendix carry holster at my match he would be welcome.
Dude, that is awesome and I will take you up on it sometime!
I have seen some guys better than me doing it pretty much in a sound fashion and I was inspired and motivated by them.
And that's why competition is such a good thing for "practical/tactical" shooters. Because even if you don't want to learn the mystic secrets of pre-planned footwork and set-ups and all the rest of the gamey stuff, you will get exposed to people who just plain shoot better than you.
This is especially true for a lot of LE/mil folks who've previously never seen anyone shoot at a really high level. After spending years exposed to their own training units, watching a top competitor blaze through a stage completely changes one's idea of what "fast" and "accurate" really mean.
Todd G is absolutely right.
Excellent way to start your post, dude. Just thought that needed to be said ... :cool:
Regarding the side topic in this thread: As a Safety Officer and CCW holder, I appreciate the fact that NO ONE comes to the range with a hot weapon.
We'll have to agree to disagree on that one. In my experience, people are far more dangerous with supposedly "empty" guns than with ones they know are loaded. If you're not responsible enough to walk through the front gate with a loaded gun in your holster, you're not responsible enough to run around on the range while shooting multiple targets at weird angles and snaking past various obstacles.
I'm less bothered by the cold range (I got caught flatfooted on that one as well) than by decocking with the trigger. I understand why they do it but I think it ingrains a really bad habit.
If you're not responsible enough to walk through the front gate with a loaded gun in your holster, you're not responsible enough to run around on the range while shooting multiple targets at weird angles and snaking past various obstacles.
I agree.
Which is why for our carbine matches we have an orientation and qualification before anyone can shoot with us. Because not only do I agree with you, I personally fully believe that far too many gun owners shouldn't be trusted with live ammunition.
Which also brings up my main "problem" with IDPA. It's ease of accessibility. Because it's advertised as "run whatcha brung", and essentially requires just a holster, two magazine pouches, a pistol, and three magazines, IDPA attracts a LOT of mouth-breathers. Right or wrong, the perception most people have of IPSC is that you need 15 magazines, a $3k laser gun, and a holster that holds the pistol in place by mag-lev. This is a good thing for the established shooters because it keeps the lowest common denominator shooters away to a large extent. At IDPA, however, we get people that just bought the gun at the gunshow the previous weekend and aren't even aware that their fancy new Sig even has a decock lever. (no, I'm not kidding)
Our club is in the process of implementing new "New Shooter" policies and procedures. Among them is a New Shooter stage that they must shoot before they can move on and join a squad. We have had shooters that have spent the whole day on the New Shooter stage, which to me is a good thing as it saved a squad of regular shooters from having to spend all day dealing with someone that isn't up to snuff. We typically have 50-60 shooters +/- at our 4th Saturday matches, and one idiot in a squad gumming up the works on every stage can have a huge impact in how efficiently the match runs and has the potential to create a lot of safety issues.
Telecomtodd
08-23-09, 06:30
It depends on your viewpoint. If you have 150 shooters and all but 10 of them are club members that you KNOW they know the range's safety rules, how the hell do you know that the rest aren't idiots? You make everyone carry cold. There's too many people in near proximity. If it was a concealed carry situation, everyone would have their pistols safely tucked away, but it's not - there's constantly someone popping a mag out to clean it, etc.
Even with cold rules in place, there's still a potential for 'accidents'. A few months back, a 1911 shooter (and non-club member) with a modified ramp feed and extractor decided he would do the old hand-over-the-chamber-move-the-slide-and-catch-the-round trick. Instead he managed to ignite a round with the chamber half-exposed (ramp feed hit the primer) and he ripped up his hand fairly well.
We've even had guys stupidly chase the shooter down the stage while the range was hot, paster strips streaming behind them.
OTOH, because of the ease of accessibility, our club gets a lot of new shooters from our CCW class showing up at the IDPA match. They struggle at first and usually require a bit of hand-holding but they learn a lot and I think the challenge shows them they need to practice and not just put the gun in a drawer and forget about it. A lot of these folks keep coming back. They may not be better shooters as a result, but at a minimum they get coached on safe gun handling and are safer shooters. I'd rather they come out and get their kinks worked out than stay away and practice in ignorance or not at all.
We're a small enough club (10-30 shooters) that the newbies don't gum things up too badly. I can see how it'd be undesirable at a large match, though.
Heavy Metal
08-23-09, 11:19
Instead he managed to ignite a round with the chamber half-exposed (ramp feed hit the primer) and he ripped up his hand fairly well.
Sounds like it hit a extended ejector.
IDPA also opens doors to a lot of people that would never otherwise seek out good training. I know that was the case in my own situation, as well as many of the people I shoot with at our matches.
I searched and came up with alot of threads but they were either about targets or random posts.
Just wondering how many people are involved, what calibers and mag capacities you use, what holsters you use?
I shoot IDPA regularly to semi regularly, depending on how busy I am, etc. I shoot CDP, which is 1911 in 45ACP using a Comptac belt slide holster.
Here's my vid from last years state championships:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZndotpkZt1A&feature=channel_page
Alpha Sierra
08-23-09, 21:20
Just wondering how many people are involved, what calibers and mag capacities you use, what holsters you use?
I am involved since about a year ago.
I mostly shoot a S&W Model 64 (.38 Special) in Stock Service Revolver. I switch between a O'Rourke revolver pancacke OWB or a Lobo Gunleather IWB holster. IWB conceals better and is more comfortable. OWB is easier to draw from.
I use Safariland Comp II speedloaders and leather speedloader pouches from Simply Rugged Holsters that hold the loader straddling the belt. With my wheelgun I always wear a dual layer bullhide belt from The Beltman.
I am beginning to dabble more with my M&P9. I also have an O'Rourke OWB pancake for it and a Hidden Defense IWB from Kirkpatrick Gunleather. I carry two magazines in whatever mag pouches I can find. One is a kydex pouch from Comp-Tac, the other is a leather pouch from Don Hume.
If I wear my M&P IWB, I wear my leather belt. If I wear it in an OWB pancake, I hang it from a Wilderness five-stitch Instructor belt.
You don't need high speed/low drag gear for this. In fact, I compete with the exact same gear and guns I use to carry on the street.
Thanks for the responses.
The reason I ask is because I do not own a handgun, I was shopping for one and heard some guys talking about IDPA, so I googled it when I got home. It looks like it would be fun, and I dont want to buy anything I cant use. The gun I was originally looking at doesnt seem like it will work for IDPA.
One of the important things about IDPA is that there are no monetary prizes or prestigious trophies. State Champions get a simple framable certificate and any monetary prizes or awards must be from a raffle. This is to create an environment of mutual encouragement, so that everyone is friendly and helpful and shares information freely to make everyone as good as they can be while under the simulated stress of competition. If you shoot IDPA you will meet many friendly and very helpful people:D
I use a P-35 or 1911 in Milt Sparks VM II or an XD Sub Compact in Uncle Mike's Paddle (while I decide on this gun for my wife) and a Custom Center 629 Mountain Gun 44Mag in a Milt Sparks 200AW which is my bear country gun. IDPA makes me better with all of these guns all of which I carry from time to time.
Thanks for the responses.
The reason I ask is because I do not own a handgun, I was shopping for one and heard some guys talking about IDPA, so I googled it when I got home. It looks like it would be fun, and I dont want to buy anything I cant use. The gun I was originally looking at doesnt seem like it will work for IDPA.
There aren't very many guns that you CAN'T shoot in IDPA. Ports/comps and barrels over 5" (because of the box) are about all I can think of. What were you looking at buying?
Alpha Sierra
08-24-09, 05:32
There aren't very many guns that you CAN'T shoot in IDPA. Ports/comps and barrels over 5" (because of the box) are about all I can think of. What were you looking at buying?
I agree with this and I too am curious abut which gun the OP is considering. The other end of the spectrum are micro-concealables like S&W J frames, many Kahrs, any Kel Tec, and the Ruger LCP. Their ammo capacity is too low or they are made in calibers not accepted by IDPA (like .38 and .32 ACP).
I was considering a kal-tec pf9, because of the low cost. I will wait and get an M&P 9mm, which is what I would rather have anyway, but will take longer for me to afford.
I don't see any reason why you couldn't shoot that Kel Tec in IDPA. You may not be competitive, but then chances are good that you won't be competitive right off the bat anyway.
But I'd wait and pick up an M&P anyway. Maybe look at the compact model since it should be easier to conceal. I've seen some guys do amazing things with a Glock 26 in IDPA. Including win their division at state matches.
Telecomtodd
08-24-09, 07:13
Great choice, it's worth the wait. I have a Kel-Tec P11, and the only comparison between the two pistols is that they shoot 9mm - totally different guns. Good pick!
Alpha Sierra
08-24-09, 08:40
+1 on saving up for an M&P compact.
But don't discount the full size M&P. If you carry inside the waist, the difference in barrel length is unimportant. The only difference is the longer grip of the full size pistol, and even that is not an issue with a good holster that has a moderate amount of forward cant and clothing that is not overly tight.
The cost difference between the two is also pretty small.
If you do decide to go with an M&P compact, get holsters made for the full size version, that way you won't have to buy duplicates later on.
gtmtnbiker98
08-24-09, 08:55
To answer the OP, I use an HKP30L (chambered in 9mm, of course). As for holster, I use a Blackhawk CQC and a Blade-Tech double mag pouch. I am one of the few in my area that use a double-action pistol, let alone an HK. I shoot in both ESP and SSP divisions, MA in both.
I would personally recommend that you save for the M&P and forego the Kel-Tec. That way you won't realize that you needed a different weapon to be competitive.
John Hearne
08-24-09, 10:26
Just wondering how many people are involved, what calibers and mag capacities you use, what holsters you use?
To answer the original question:
I often shoot our local IDPA match. I'm typically on-duty when I do it so I shoot from my duty belt with a Safariland ALS holster and Akers open top magazine pouches. I'm shooting a Sig P220 Match with X300 and use the standard 8 round magazines.
I also have a 9mm AR and I'll shoot it as a second gun to make the event time efficient. The gun is setup with iron sights and I'm shooting 20 round Colt SMG magazines. If I couldn't shoot the second gun, I don't think it would be worth my time to show up for the match.
I have shot sanctioned matches and do so with my P220ST with normal slide and a Comp-Tac belt holster.
Comments on the comments:
At a certain level IDPA is very valuable. As noted CCW holder can quickly figure out that the state standards are meaningless and they need to practice a lot. If you're shooting in the lower classifications, the IDPA will be useful in driving your skills to a higher level.
At a certain point, IDPA requires skills that have no relevance in the "real world." Things such as foot work, minimal use of cover, etc. are required to be competitive at the Master level and can be useful in Expert.
The gun I carry every day, on-duty and off-duty, is not "IDPA legal." It's a stainless frame P220 with a 5" slide assembly. It is way over weight for CDP, especially with the X300 in place which I carry whenever I'm in uniform. The local matches don't care about the weight and just let me shoot which is nice.
My major gripes with IDPA are that it's accuracy standards are tight enough to have direct benefit for real world shootings and that it allows choreography that the real world doesn't.
If I ran things, the -0 would be a 6" circle and the -1 would be a 9" circle. Everything else on the body would be a -5. There would be a realistic ocular window (3x5") and the rest of the head would be -2. While the math would be harder, I'd be tempted to charge -.75 for each point down.
I really object to the extensive choreography that is required to be competitive in the match. The best shooters formulate a "plan," practice that plan in their mind as many times as they can, and then shoot that plan with full knowledge of when to reload, where to stop for cover, etc. In the real world, you won't know when you're pistol going to run empty, you probably won't know how many threats you're facing, and you'll have to figure out the use of cover while rounds are flying.
There are better venues for realism than IPDA, like the NTI or the Rangemaster Tactical Conference, but they are few and far between. It is interesting to see how nationally ranked shooters do when they're dumped into scenarios where they can't choreograph everything they're doing.
To answer the original question:
My major gripes with IDPA are that it's accuracy standards are tight enough to have direct benefit for real world shootings and that it allows choreography that the real world doesn't.
I assume you meant to say "aren't"?
If I ran things, the -0 would be a 6" circle and the -1 would be a 9" circle. Everything else on the body would be a -5. There would be a realistic ocular window (3x5") and the rest of the head would be -2. While the math would be harder, I'd be tempted to charge -.75 for each point down.
I would buy, and use, those targets for our carbine matches.
We do two hits in the -0, or three hits in the -1 to neutralize a target. Hits in the -3 don't count at all. Failure to Neutralize is 30 seconds (which is nicer than the DNF that I want to assign). I'd love to have an "A-zone" that was 6" in the chest and 3"x5" in the head, and a B that is the rest of the head and a 9" circle in the chest.
As it is, I'm strongly considering simply using 3x5 Post-It Notes vertically in the chest and horizontally in the head for the A zone.
Truth be told though, if I had my way, ALL targets would be reactive, with random "kill" spots in either the COM or ocular cavity, and would require 2-5 hits to drop in the kill spot.
John Hearne
08-24-09, 10:57
http://www.letargets.com/images/riposte-3.jpg
The target above may interest you. It was developed by a friend who does trainups for units going overseas and has been doing so for years. The target is based on the premise the "sweet spot" is high in the chest and not very large. There is a "spine" on the target which is the only other way he's found to really drop someone. If you just score the top part of the "B" it's pretty good.
http://www.letargets.com/images/scso-08.jpg
While I haven't seen one in person, my guess, based on stated target width, is that the target above has a 6" scoring zone in the center. I also like it because it has facial features that give good landmarks for the head shot.
As far as creating a "spine" my friend found that the best way to do this was with a piece of 2" masking tape. He runs it down the center of the target and it replaced very easily.
At the risk of bragging, we've use my reactive targets for the Rangemaster Tactical Conference Side-Match for three years now. You either shoot it high in the chest and it goes down or you don't. The plates are anatomically correct and if the target isn't facing you, you need to be able to solve 3-d shooting problems ala Awerbuck. This year, the targets were placed in a shoot house under low light conditions. It was very interesting to listen to shooters as they would dump rounds on target without effect as they had never had to shoot in this fashion - a fashion that is far more realistic than anything else out there.
That second one is nice. Puts the ocular/nasal cavity in the right place too.
We did a whole block at drills nights on brain shots vs. head shots, aiming reference points, etc.
Paper targets for us are a budgetery constraint though. We wind up using cardboard as a backer and the paper then increases the overall costs. I guess we could try to use, and re-use, non-target backers that might be cheaper. If I could come up with a cardboard + paper that was a net wash in terms of cost I'd be getting somewhere.
ETA:
This is helpful, in terms of cost
25-99 $0.48/ea
100-499 $0.37/ea
http://www.letargets.com/images/usmc-srq.jpg
I shoot IDPA regularly at our local club. I shoot a M&P 40c because that is what I carry most.
I just picked up a PM9 and may shoot a match with it to see how well I can run under match conditions.
I use a Galco Matrix M3X paddle holster because my IWB is not reinforced at the top and is sketchy with reholstering. I use a Fobus double mag holder with the paddle and a Blackhawk belt clip mag holder for a third mag.
I often am complimented (or teased depending on the shooter) about shooting a compact but I stay with the run-what-you-carry philosophy.
The only thing I have to add to this discussion is that we have a club member who has started setting up a blind stage each month. It adds a lot to the match but is a bugger because of the time it takes to set up.
Buckaroo
I've been an IDPA participant since 1998. I'm a certified SO, SO Instructor, was a club MD for 4.5 years and have MD'ed two state level matches.
IMHO, IDPA is simply another option for getting some trigger time and having some fun at the range. The benefits of the trigger time is pretty much in the shooter's hands (no pun intended). IDPA has enough flexibility to allow each shooter to decide to go "fun-n-gun' or lean more toward the tactical side.
As some have stated, IDPA is NOT training. Is a fun game...or at least it's fun when I shoot well! ;)
I think now that I shoot a M&P Pro and a M&P45 and have had the grips textured I have to shoot in ESP and CDP division because texturing isn't allowed but grip tape is for SSP........another weird rule.
As long as you only have the removable grip panel textured, you're still good to go in SSP. It's when you texture the frame that you get pushed into ESP/CDP.
FromMyColdDeadHand
08-24-09, 12:21
For IDPA, where does the holster have to be? Trigger guard behind the midline? Does this mean 3 oclock or further back?
Do you have to wear a tacti-ghey vest, or can I run my IWB and a shirt?
Buddy wants to start next month shooting, and since our wives are the actual 'friends', they are powerless to stop us! Muuuu-ha-ha-ha!
For IDPA, where does the holster have to be? Trigger guard behind the midline? Does this mean 3 oclock or further back?
Do you have to wear a tacti-ghey vest, or can I run my IWB and a shirt?
Buddy wants to start next month shooting, and since our wives are the actual 'friends', they are powerless to stop us! Muuuu-ha-ha-ha!
You have the holster position correct...just add in that SOB holsters are not allowed.
No, vest is required.
Mo_Zam_Beek
08-24-09, 15:56
I have shot club level IDPA on and off for years. I have used 9mm, 10mm, and .45 ACP in Glock, 1911 and BHP platforms. I am one of those that shows up with a hot carry gun (I discretely unload in the privacy of my vehicle - I wouldn't recommend it for everyone), shoot that gun in the match, and (discretely re-charge with carry ammo in the vehicle - again wouldn't recommend it for everyone) the same gun just before I drive out. I dress just like I do for the season - I've shot a lot of matches in flip flops, shorts and a polo over shirt. I shoot every stage concealed. I use my same holster regardless - a VM2.
Failure to Neutralize is 30 seconds (which is nicer than the DNF that I want to assign).
Brother from another mother!!!!
It is stuff like FTN that creates a disconnect for me with the game. There are more but, why go into it - it is just a game and I stopped playing the game years ago.
Good luck
Alpha Sierra
08-24-09, 16:47
No, vest is required.
I think you meant to leave the comma out.
To be perfectly clear, vests are NOT required. You can conceal the way you normally do in the street.
In fact, what Mo Zam Beek describes is exactly what I do. I wear no tacti-cool gamer vest, no special plastic fantastic straight drop cut-down front holster, no special mag pouches, no gamer anything.
I come in carrying hot, unload in the truck, change ammo from hollowpoints to reloads, reholster cold, and go on my way to shoot. My concealment are the clothes I wear on a daily basis to hide my pistol.
Robb Jensen
08-24-09, 18:34
As long as you only have the removable grip panel textured, you're still good to go in SSP. It's when you texture the frame that you get pushed into ESP/CDP.
I had the front area textured too. All M&Ps are textured there from the factory but I had Hatfield Gunsmithing texture it a little rougher.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/MPs040.jpg
I have been shooting IDPA for about 10 years and SOing for about 5 years.
I just taught an Into to IDPA class for my local shooting club yesterday. As I told my students and as several others have mentioned above, IDPA is a sport. In no way is it tactical self defense training.
While IDPA may require drawing from concealment and use of cover, it is no more self defense training than Bullseye, Service Rifle or Rimfire Silhouette matches. Shooting any of the firearms sports can help you improve your firearms manipulation skills, teach you to perform under the stress of competition and improve your confidence in your shooting abilities but none of them are a substitute for quality training in self defense with firearms.
I suffered though many matches in the past when when shooters would argue about their poor scores or their earned penalties because "well, that's the way I woulda shot it in real life".
It's a frigging game and that's all it is. Shoot it fast and game it to the max or shoot it tactical and take 30 seconds to pie a corner and have a low score. Be safe, have fun but remember that it's just a game.
As far as targets, one of the best is the Ken Reed's Reed Reactor, which is similar to John Hearne's excellent targets but sized for IDPA
Hit's outside the head or 0 down zone don't neutralize the target.
http://www.parmarng.org/freeidaho/AlSkDjFhG/ReedReactiveTarget/ReedReactive1Explain2.jpg
http://www.parmarng.org/freeidaho/AlSkDjFhG/ReedReactiveTarget/ReedReactive4.jpg
One last comment. If you're club is not following IDPA rules and allowing folks to shoot with illegal equipment, don't call it an IDPA match. Call it "Super Duper Shootin match" or whatever but don't call it IDPA. I'm all for getting new shooters into the sport but allowing cheating, be it equipment or otherwise does not help the sport or the shooter.
Gringop
Any video of that target system in action?
Some thoughts, in no particular order:
"Founding Fathers" of IDPA: Remember that some of the original rulebook writers have left, and some remain. The game has changed a lot since it began. I remember when the draft rulebook got passed around to some of us ... you could checker the front strap of a 1911, but not a BHP. :cool: Some changes have been for the better, some for the worse.
Game vs. training: IDPA is a game. It is not training. It certainly can be reasonably useful practice, but that's on you.
The other shooters: Being upset at the run 'n gunners who blaze through stages (and kick your ass) is a waste of effort. If you say you don't care about your score but shoot IDPA to "practice" your tactical ninja skills, then there's no need to compare your score to the gamer who is there to win. IDPA can achieve your goals, and his goals. Unfortunately for you, they only give trophies for his.
Targets: The wide open head box of the IDPA target, I agree, sucks. I'd love to see a 3x5 "-0" zone there and call the rest of the head -3. As for the 8" body zone, it comes down to balance. The 8" zone is reasonable from a practical/"stopping" standpoint and still allows shooters to go fast ... which is fun ... which brings people back month after month ... which keeps IDPA in business. Same is true for the penalty per point dropped. I'd be more than happy to see it increased to a full second per point, personally, but the 0.5 is a good compromise compared to when the game first started (it was 0.3 back then).
FTN/Non-Threats: I appreciate the desire to penalize people to hell and back for failing to neutralize a threat and for hitting a non-threat. However, raping people over a single errant shot is decidedly unfun and contradicts the goal of having shooters want to come back. Penalties for things like that need to be high enough that you won't make silly risky shots, but low enough that an honest mistake doesn't ruin an entire afternoon's match ... or in the case of a big championship, ruin your entire trip across country. Again, IDPA = game, IDPA != real life.
Uber-reactive targets: rob_s, when you come up with the multi-hit, variable location, reactive targets that are reasonably priced, mobile, and don't give an unfair advantage to high-momentum ammunition, give me a call. I will buy many. :cool:
Surprise stages: The problem with surprise stages is that they're not always a surprise for everyone. Buddies tell each other what's inside, especially at major matches. It's wrong, it's poor sportsmanship, but it happens all the time.
Once upon a time we had good reactive targets but they weren't multi-hit (although very few people got it with the first shot). They were very cheap, easy to set, and easily transported. Oh, and they all wore t-shirts so they were more "realistic" without the obvious aiming points.
The problem? They relied on balloons. At the time we had 10 shooters and we were all friends and pretty much everyone blew up their own balloons for the stage(s). Now, with 25 shooter at a carbine match, and 3, 10 target, stages? 30 balloons per shooter for a match, 25 shooters? That's just too many goddamn balloons.
I'm hoping I can figure out some kind of way to do something similar with perhaps tennis balls or something else re-usable.
freakshow10mm
08-24-09, 19:52
Shot IDPA locally a few years. Too busy with my business to shoot regularly.
It was part of the college's practical pistol club. We were split into two groups. IDPA was IDPA and was adhered to as best as we could within the limitations of the range (indoor on college campus).
Practical Pistol was basically IDPA with training wheels. .22 and .25 was allowed. Gun jams weren't counted against, just a mulligan. No moving with a loaded gun, only slide locked guns. We used the Practical Pistol matches to get novice shooters some trigger time under pressure all the while monitoring their gun handling. In Practical Pistol, we went one shooter at a time. In IDPA we ran a full range (3 stages at the same time) balls out no mercy. You basically got familiar with range operations and COFs in Practical Pistol, then graduated to IDPA. The idea was well accepted.
That said I shot a Glock 30 for a while using Sidearmor IWB holster. Then I switched to a 10mm 1911 Commander with Aker Flatsider OWB holster. The last year I had fun and competed with 245 PF handloads in the 10mm.
I think you meant to leave the comma out.
No, I meant that vests ARE required! :D
Seriously...I don't know where that comma came from! :rolleyes:
I had the front area textured too. All M&Ps are textured there from the factory but I had Hatfield Gunsmithing texture it a little rougher.
IMHO, I see nothing wrong with how you've modded your M&P and think it should be fine for SSP. After all, 20 or 30 lpi checkering is allowed on 1911's.
Unfortunately, for the sake of match admin IMHO, IDPA HQ disagrees with me! :rolleyes:
As far as targets, one of the best is the Ken Reed's Reed Reactor, which is similar to John Hearne's excellent targets but sized for IDPA
Hit's outside the head or 0 down zone don't neutralize the target.
Gringop
I have a agree that Ken's target is pretty cool. We used to have and use four of them. They can be quite a challenge to knock down...when you put t-shirts over the IDPA targets! :eek:
I had requested that the fellow who made them for us, redo the bases. The original design simply doesn't work well in a sandy environment. It was a real pain, having to adjust the sensitivity every squad or two.
FTN/Non-Threats: I appreciate the desire to penalize people to hell and back for failing to neutralize a threat and for hitting a non-threat. However, raping people over a single errant shot is decidedly unfun and contradicts the goal of having shooters want to come back. Penalties for things like that need to be high enough that you won't make silly risky shots, but low enough that an honest mistake doesn't ruin an entire afternoon's match ... or in the case of a big championship, ruin your entire trip across country. Again, IDPA = game, IDPA != real life.
I think 5 seconds is a pretty good balance and far from penalizing people "to hell and back". That's enough of a penalty to get your attention and is a FAR cry from what could/would be the penalty in an actual defensive scenario.
Yes, for the guys who are trying to win at the Master level of each division, 5 seconds is most likely a match breaker. But then, that's as it should be.
I am leaning towards a compact m&p9, since it will be the only handgun I will have. I am going to start taking some classes, and applying for my firearms license, so it will be a while before I try IDPA.
Alpha Sierra
08-24-09, 22:16
Where do you live? In the majority of states there is no license to buy and use handguns, just to carry them concealed. You do not need to wait until you get a license to carry to shoot IDPA. Just transport the pistol unloaded and in accordance with your state law, then holster up when you get to the range. 100% legal in all 50 states.
If you are only going to have one handgun, make it a full size pistol and learn to dress around it. It is not that difficult and the difference in size between the compact and the service pistol is not that great. The longer sight radius (more tolerant of aiming errors) and greater magazine capacity of the full size pistol are well worth any minor wardrobe adjustments.
I live in Ga, I know I dont need a license to own or shoot, I did think it would be needed for IDPA though. From what I have read it is only taking 30 days for licenses here so I will probably end up getting it before the pistol anyway.
One of the ranges here has a "FIRST SHOTS - FIREARMS FUNDAMENTALS" class, weapons and ammo included in the fee, so I might be able to shoot a compact and full size and see what works better. I have no formal training and have only shot friend's handguns a few times, all my experience is with long guns.
Mo_Zam_Beek
08-25-09, 00:27
As far as targets, one of the best is the Ken Reed's Reed Reactor, which is similar to John Hearne's excellent targets but sized for IDPA
Hit's outside the head or 0 down zone don't neutralize the target.
http://www.parmarng.org/freeidaho/AlSkDjFhG/ReedReactiveTarget/ReedReactive1Explain2.jpg
http://www.parmarng.org/freeidaho/AlSkDjFhG/ReedReactiveTarget/ReedReactive4.jpg
I've shot these. They are good and depending how it is sprung it reinforces 'shoot till the target is no longer a threat' as two whacks to the steel doesn't necessarily drop it. Gaming it is hitting the steel and seeing it begin to drop and then moving on to the next target. 'More real' is hitting it in the steel until it is anchored to the bottom, then topping off, and leaving that point of cover on your way to the next target / point of cover.
Let's be honest though, for shear fun there is nothing like a Texas Star.
Last thought - If one has some issues with IDPA they may want to look into IPSC. IPSC is a straight up game and IMHO has some really fun aspects to it. The stages are not supposed to real or even close. The round counts are big and stage management or thinking about the most efficient way to shoot the stage is critical. Gun handling is at a premium; and IMHO it is more complex game than IDPA as a result of everything. The bullshit that goes with that game is the problem. From the cleated shoes and race gear, to the range lawyers arguing over every last little thing, to the folks that won't help tape and brass b/c they are so competitive that they are 'saving themselves' for their next stage. Don't get me wrong, you see this in IDPA but not to the same degree.
Good luck
dookie1481
08-25-09, 03:23
IMHO, I see nothing wrong with how you've modded your M&P and think it should be fine for SSP. After all, 20 or 30 lpi checkering is allowed on 1911's.
Unfortunately, for the sake of match admin IMHO, IDPA HQ disagrees with me! :rolleyes:
That's ****ing ridiculous. I'm going to end up getting a grip reduction for my G19 due to my midget hands, so I will have to compete in ESP, right? Not that I will be competitive initially, but it seems like a stupid rule.
Jay
dookie1481
08-25-09, 03:26
I live in Ga, I know I dont need a license to own or shoot, I did think it would be needed for IDPA though. From what I have read it is only taking 30 days for licenses here so I will probably end up getting it before the pistol anyway.
One of the ranges here has a "FIRST SHOTS - FIREARMS FUNDAMENTALS" class, weapons and ammo included in the fee, so I might be able to shoot a compact and full size and see what works better. I have no formal training and have only shot friend's handguns a few times, all my experience is with long guns.
As I stated in another thread, I'm pretty much a midget (5'5", 160) and I easily conceal (unless I'm hanging out with cops) a full-size M&P 9mm.
Jay
I guess a full size makes more sense, I wont be carrying in public, at least not until get some training and plenty of range time. I still want to shoot them both first.
dookie1481
08-25-09, 03:59
I guess a full size makes more sense, I wont be carrying in public, at least not until get some training and plenty of range time. I still want to shoot them both first.
Well the full size will have myriad advantages WRT "shootability". The compact will be slightly more concealable, but not much more so.
Jay
Alpha Sierra
08-25-09, 06:37
I live in Ga, I know I dont need a license to own or shoot, I did think it would be needed for IDPA though.
Nope. While on the range you are a guest (or member) of a private club. You are therefore not in public and don't need a license to carry or to carry concealed.
Same as in your home or your business. CCW w/o a license is legal too.
mike benedict
08-26-09, 07:35
I live in Ga, I know I dont need a license to own or shoot, I did think it would be needed for IDPA though. From what I have read it is only taking 30 days for licenses here so I will probably end up getting it before the pistol anyway. .
A CCW license is certainly not needed for IDPA
To follow up on this topic. Shot a match the other day. Good news is, I was top of the CDP division. Bad news is, there were only 5 out of 40+ people! I can recall at least half the guns at matches being CDP. Cost of ammo seems to have improved, but it's still not always easy to find.
Tempted myself to go the 9mm/SSP route for the $$$ savings alone, but I love the 1911 platform and "flying ashtray" rnds. :cool:
There used to be a monthly match at a N. Dallas range called "Texas Tactical". It's was run by cops, but civies also shot it. A handfull of local PD - all competitive shooters - would set it up on Friday evenings for the Saturday AM match using the IPSC props.
No walk-throughs ever - in fact many of the stages were 100% surprise stages. (The first time you saw the stage was when you walked through a gate.) Getting tunnel vision was not at all unusual. No one could even tape targets, set steel, etc., unless they had already shot the stage.
Using cover was required if available - and it generally was available.
Reloads were from behind cover only - no running /w an unloaded pistol, but partially loaded mags could be dropped on the ground - unlike IDPA.
Targets were either 100% dead = 1 A or 1 B, or 2 Cs, or 1 C+1 D if shooting Major, but not 3 Ds, or scored as a miss. 10 Points for a dead target, or -10 for a miss. (Hits scored 10, 7, 3 for Major caliber and 10, 7, 2 for Minor caliber.)
Holster was actual duty gear or concealable.
I always thought it was more "practical" and much more fun than the current games.
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