View Full Version : Stoeger’s New Double Defense Shotgun
http://www.stoegerindustries.com/firearms/stoeger_double_defense.php
What's everyone's thoughts on these? Saw one at my local store today. I have an 870P, just lookin' at something cheap to have as a second.
Buy another 870. This thing looks like an April Fool's joke.
http://www.stoegerindustries.com/firearms/images/double_defense_large_blue_12.jpg
Thomas M-4
08-26-09, 23:19
LMAO thats funny :D
Put rails on any damn thing to sell it:rolleyes:
I guess putting an Aimpoint on something still can't guarantee to make it "tactical".
Oh I agree about the rails, think its overkill too. The top rail is not attached as it ships, its in the box to be added by the customer. I admit to actually liking the way it looks, guess its the Old West geek in me.
It needs a bayonet lug...
The bayonet lug was omitted for the lucrative California market.
MarshallDodge
08-27-09, 11:27
I have a double barrel that I play games with. They have a cool factor but that's where it ends. Maybe it would look good next to a Taurus Judge? :p
My recommendation would be to find a nice used Mossberg 590 or Rem 870.
geminidglocker
08-27-09, 11:34
Now that is a "Bubba Gun" if I ever saw one. Still laughing!:D It is a joke, right???:confused:
Gutshot John
08-27-09, 11:37
I disagree this might make a nice choice, especially for those unable or unwilling to spend a lot of time money on a more complicated platform. I know a few who've used/advocated the standard Stoeger coach guns as defensive guns and they are probably responding to a market demand.
The simplicity of function, and a modicum of practice and it might make an effective home-defense weapon. It's pretty quick to reload a break-open gun.
No moving action means it's shorter and quicker handling than either a pump or semi in close quarters.
While it's not for everyone, I wouldn't poo-poo the idea either.
geminidglocker
08-27-09, 11:41
I'll continue to "Poo-Poo" the idea. That thing is stupid. Period.
Gutshot John
08-27-09, 11:51
I'll continue to "Poo-Poo" the idea. That thing is stupid. Period.
The learned gentleman is certainly entitled to his opinion. For most, if not everyone, here it's probably not a valid choice. People however forget that most shooters aren't like contributors here.
For the non-hobbyist, who doesn't see the value in reaching your skill level, it might be a reasonable choice for a defensive gun.
Gutshot John
08-27-09, 12:15
I do concede there is a "bubba" quality about it. Of course I also grew up taping penlights to my Dad's Marlin 39 to shoot rats under our house.
No argument from me that a good double gun could be a viable (less than ideal, but viable) choice for HD shotgun for someone uninterested in anything more.
But I highly doubt that the people who fall into that category are also going to be interested in adding an Aimpoint and a flashlight that's too far out to reach.
I like the fiber front sight, and adding a short piece of rail in front of the fore end where a light could be mounted (and operated) could be worthwhile. I like the black furniture even (I almost said synthetic, but it says black hardwood!). But the full length rail and Aimpoint on top are just....overkill.
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f392/LOKNLOD/Venn.jpg
This is the kinda shit I suggest on TOS to make fun of the special ed forum (shotgun forum) members as a ****ING JOKE.
There ARE indeed goobers who would buy this. I have no doubt.
MisterWilson
08-27-09, 18:34
I'm not going to lie, I kinda want one.
I wonder what would happen if you showed up to a SASS match with it though...
When I read the title, I was secretly hoping they had made a double barrel pump action shotgun like Moe had on The Simpsons.
I can't see much good use for it(nighttime raccoon hunting?), but I have to admit it's kind of neat from a novelty perspective. Bet it would look good with a tact'ed out marlin 1894, and some laser grips on a ruger blackhawk.
As already said, for that money they would be better off with a Remington 870 or a .38 revolver if they are really simpleminded. They are actually much better off with a revolver because most side-by-side shotguns have a safety that automatically engages itself when you close the barrels. So if you are talking about a gun for someone who might take it shooting once and then leave it laying around for the rest of their life unless they need it. In which case under stress they might forget to disengage the safety.
If they want a shotgun for home defense, they should invest more time and training and get a decent pump action. 2 shots and then having to reload is not much when you consider the posibility of multiple assailants, misses, and people who might require more than one shot, and a combination of all of those possibilities.
As pointed out by that excellent diagram, someone who clings to a double barrel shotgun for its simplicity is not likely to embace a gun mounted light or red dot sight.
Gutshot John
08-28-09, 00:10
As already said, for that money they would be better off with a Remington 870 or a .38 revolver if they are really simpleminded.
Actually even experienced shooters have been known to short-stroke an 870 and even a revolver requires significant training to be effective. Reloading a revolver under stress is hardly an idiot-proof ordeal.
They are actually much better off with a revolver because most side-by-side shotguns have a safety that automatically engages itself when you close the barrels. So if you are talking about a gun for someone who might take it shooting once and then leave it laying around for the rest of their life unless they need it. In which case under stress they might forget to disengage the safety.
Any number of failures under stress can occur for any number of shooters with a wide variety of firearms. There is no end to that line of thought. Ultimately you need "some" training/practice. I can teach someone to load, aim and shoot a side-by-side in a fraction of the time of an 870 or revolver. A handgun by its nature is quite difficult to use...even a revolver.
If they want a shotgun for home defense, they should invest more time and training and get a decent pump action. 2 shots and then having to reload is not much when you consider the posibility of multiple assailants, misses, and people who might require more than one shot, and a combination of all of those possibilities.
It beats nothing and again if training is the issue, I'd recommend dozens of other firearms before either a side-by-side or a pump. Have you ever tried to move inside a structure with a full-length 870? It ain't exactly a "handy". You can miss with an 870 and far more easily with revolver. You can certainly run out of ammo with either.
As pointed out by that excellent diagram, someone who clings to a double barrel shotgun for its simplicity is not likely to embace a gun mounted light or red dot sight.
I don't think we can say that the diagram is scientific, even still it's kind of missing the point. People have been rigging lights under shotgun barrels for decades before anyone thought of mounting a rail there. Even still you may be right, in which case there is no market for this gun. That said, I can't imagine Stoeger would go through all the trouble if they didn't think there was a market for it.
Actually even experienced shooters have been known to short-stroke an 870 and even a revolver requires significant training to be effective. Reloading a revolver under stress is not hardly an idiot-proof ordeal.
Any number of failures under stress can occur for any number of shooters with a wide variety of firearms. There is no end to that line of thought. Ultimately you need "some" training/practice. I can teach someone to load, aim and shoot a side-by-side in a fraction of the time of an 870 or revolver. A handgun by its nature is quite difficult to use...even a revolver.
It beats nothing and again if training is the issue, I'd recommend dozens of other firearms before either a side-by-side or a pump. Have you ever tried to move inside a structure with a full-length 870? It ain't exactly a "handy". You can miss with an 870 and far more easily with revolver. You can certainly run out of ammo with either.
Agreed about the shortstroking a pumpgun. I suggested it as a better weapon than a double, not a simpler one. I think in this case a revolver is a better weapon than a double because it is simpler to operate (no worry about forgetting to disengage a safety), less recoil, less bulk to move through a structure if that becomes necessary (like to get a kid's room and bring them to yours, etc).
I don't think we can say that the diagram is scientific, even still it's kind of missing the point. People have been rigging lights under shotgun barrels for decades before anyone thought of mounting a rail there. Even still you may be right, in which case there is no market for this gun. That said, I can't imagine Stoeger would go through all the trouble if they didn't think there was a market for it.
There's a goober market for a lot of things. That doesn't make them any less goobers.
Gutshot John
08-28-09, 01:06
Agreed about the shortstroking a pumpgun. I suggested it as a better weapon than a double, not a simpler one.
Right, which is exactly the reason why an unskilled shooter, unwilling to put the amount of time you and I would consider proper, might prefer a simpler weapon than a better one. If we're looking for the "better" weapon, there are arguably better weapons than an 870. For myself, I use a Glock 17.
I think in this case a revolver is a better weapon than a double because it is simpler to operate (no worry about forgetting to disengage a safety), less recoil, less bulk to move through a structure if that becomes necessary (like to get a kid's room and bring them to yours, etc).
I'm not sure I'd agree that a revolver is simpler to operate than a break-open. It certainly isn't simpler to make effective hits. If bulk is an issue, than the break-open design is a bit less bulky than an 870 that has a full-length action. A break-open is two barrels and a stock...no action.
There's a goober market for a lot of things. That doesn't make them any less goobers.
You made the point that anyone who wants a side-by-side is unlikely to see the value in a weapon mounted light. I made the point that those same people have been mounting lights to side-by-side shotguns since before I was born.
Lots of goobers own ARs as well. Buying a side-by-side doesn't make you a goober anymore than owning an AR excludes you from that label.
Well I thought that maybe this was a joke, but after looking at the Stoeger website. I see that I was mistaken.
That said, I would definitely concede that a 12 Gauge Double Barrel Shotgun COULD be used for defense or anti-personnel use (many have been put into the dirt with a double gun). However, because it could be used for such purposes does not necessarily mean it should be in this day and age.
How ironic, I was in a Sporting Goods Store yesterday and one of the guns in the case was a Stoeger Double Barrel (side by side) Home Defense Shotgun sans the rails/ synthetic stoke. I looked at the gun and it appeared to be well made. Stoeger shotguns are typically manufactured by a Turkish company and the quality is high. The particular gun I examined was well made and solid. The price was $300 before tax and DROS. While I would never purchase one, I could see that it might appeal to some.
However, as I see it. If a 12GA Double gun will cost $300-$500, then why not just buy a Mossberg 500 or a Remington 870. I recently had a friend ask what he should purchase for a Home Defense Shotgun (I suggested a Remington 870 Police trade-in because he did not want to spend over $300/ this type of shotgun was for sale at Bud's Guns for $230). A family member suggested for him to buy such a gun as the Stoeger. I suggested he purchase a pump shotgun for two principal reasons.
First, the pump shotgun typically holds at least 4-5 shells in the magazine. The added capacity could become an asset if multiple assailants are involved. Particularly since it has become common place in this type of scenario for 2-3, sometimes 4 individual suspects to be participating in the crime.
Second, I have personally fired many weapons in my lifetime. I can think of no long gun more reliable than a pump shotgun. Pump gun, point, and shoot.
Yes, a pump can be short-stroked. But with dilligent practice, this problem can be made into a non-issue.
In conclusion, although a 12GA Double Barrel Shotgun can be employed for Self-Defense it just seems there are better choices for a shotgun.
SkiDevil
P.S. I have owned several pumpguns and currently use a Remington 870. As a matter of fact, if I know that trouble is headed my way in a built-up urban area it is the first gun that I reach for. A shotgun, properly employed, is a devastating and formidable weapon.
Gutshot John
08-28-09, 10:55
I think we all can agree that as a personal choice we would choose something different, something we obviously think is a "better choice".
I think we can also agree that our personal choices aren't always the best choices for others.
I think we can also agree that our personal choices aren't always the best choices for others.
Yes, Sir. You are right about that.
I think we all can agree that as a personal choice we would choose something different, something we obviously think is a "better choice".
I think we can also agree that our personal choices aren't always the best choices for others.
While I can see the utility of a double for defensive use in localities that preclude private ownership of magazine-fed repeaters, your contention that operation of a double is simpler and therefore easier to manipulate for someone who isn't going to devote any time to practice is just absurd. Loading a double under stress is actually quite difficult, requiring a great deal of manual dexterity, as anyone who has seen a novice (or been that novice) shoot at a SASS event can attest. The amount of time required to become proficient in rapid loading of a double is certainly greater than the time required to learn how to minimize/eliminate short-stroking with a pump. There is also the issue of reloading at night without being able to see the chambers, something that even with practice I've found to be more difficult than charging a pump's magazine at night.
When used police pumps can be had for less, this choice just doesn't make sense at all, regardless of the training priorities (or lack thereof) of the purchaser.
Gutshot John
08-30-09, 20:44
While I can see the utility of a double for defensive use in localities that preclude private ownership of magazine-fed repeaters, your contention that operation of a double is simpler and therefore easier to manipulate for someone who isn't going to devote any time to practice is just absurd.
I disagree, oh well.
Loading a double under stress is actually quite difficult, requiring a great deal of manual dexterity, as anyone who has seen a novice (or been that novice) shoot at a SASS event can attest.
Loading/functioning a pump action under stress is actually quite difficult, requiring a great deal of manual dexterity as anyone who has seen (or been) a novice at any three gun match can attest.
Cuts both ways? So?
The amount of time required to become proficient in rapid loading of a double is certainly greater than the time required to learn how to minimize/eliminate short-stroking with a pump.
Uhm no, sorry but you're flat wrong. Break open, empties eject, fit two rounds into two holes, close breech. Pull trigger.
Faster to do than to say. Far faster and easier than feeding individual rounds into a tube mag.
So?
There is also the issue of reloading at night without being able to see the chambers, something that even with practice I've found to be more difficult than charging a pump's magazine at night.
No more difficult than a pump. If you can't see two big holes, what makes you think you can see a loading port? So?
When used police pumps can be had for less, this choice just doesn't make sense at all, regardless of the training priorities (or lack thereof) of the purchaser.
If I accepted your reasoning that operating a pump was easier than operating than a break-open. Obviously I find such reasoning is "absurd" (though thats a poor word choice) given that every weakness you've mentioned above is equally shared by a pump. Sorry but a pump gun isn't simpler than a break-open. Never will be. I wouldn't recommend a pump for someone who told me they weren't going to put in the necessary time to master it. A break-open requires far less time to master. It's as simple as that.
Again this isn't my choice, and I'm sure those with experience would chose a weapon that they like better. If I was given a choice between the two, I'd go with the pump, but I've been shooting pump guns since I was a kid. I'm not defending it as a first choice, or even the best choice for most, only as the right choice for some people. If you find that "absurd" I'm disinclined to care.
Sorry, but for $100 less I'll take the non-tacticool model
http://www.stoegerindustries.com/firearms/stoeger_coach_gun_single_triggers.php
Gutshot John
08-31-09, 17:02
:rolleyes:
Sigh, ok.
If you say so but that's pretty lame to lob rhetorical bombs and then get all passive-aggressive when someone doesn't kiss your ass.
First I never said a double-barrel was appropriate for someone who is not going to do "any" training as you claimed, only minimal training. A double barrel requires "less" training than a pump and was simpler for those unwilling to put in more than "minimal" training. (firing off a box of shells when they first buy and never touch it again).
Second a double-barrel is not an "absurd" choice by any stretch of the imagination. That there are videos online that demonstrates its use in the defensive/offensive shotgun role should indicate that it's hardly "absurd. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhgwHQCJwWw
Third every weakness you mentioned in a side-by-side could be equally applied to a pump. No weapons choice is without trade-offs and if someone was going to put in the time and effort to master a pump, I could think of several weapons I'd say they should consider first. The difference is that the weaknesses are simpler to remediate in a side-by-side than a pump. I'm not sure why that's a controversial or "absurd" statement.
Fourth, we are gun people, we pride ourselves on taking the time to master our weapons. While this is preferred it also represents a minority of gunowners. I don't subscribe to the view that if a person isn't willing to put in the same amount of time and effort into firearms as I am, than they should NOT be allowed to own.
For many this might be the only gun they ever want and simply will keep it locked up for the day they will probably never need it. While I hope they would take the time to practice with it, at least occasionally, for those that never do pick it up until they need it, it is significantly easier to make it go bang than a pump.
If it's not what you would choose? Fine I'm not suggesting you do, I wouldn't either, but it's not an entirely stupid choice either.
I'm holding out for a FF rail system for this. I don't want to pull any long range shots if I weight the barrel down with lights, PEQs, and APNVS type stuff. I'm going to be the bad ass this Dove Season.:cool:
And hopefully an offering of this useless turd could be made even less lethal .410.
What distance do you guys zero your Bird Shot home defense?
Thomas M-4
08-31-09, 19:01
I'm holding out for a FF rail system for this. I don't want to pull any long range shots if I weight the barrel down with lights, PEQs, and APNVS type stuff. I'm going to be the bad ass this Dove Season.:cool:
And hopefully an offering of this useless turd could be made even less lethal .410.
What distance do you guys zero your Bird Shot home defense?
You forgot the bayonet lug :rolleyes: just in case you have to put down one of those wounded doves can be dangerous man :D
Alaskapopo
09-01-09, 06:26
I disagree this might make a nice choice, especially for those unable or unwilling to spend a lot of time money on a more complicated platform. I know a few who've used/advocated the standard Stoeger coach guns as defensive guns and they are probably responding to a market demand.
The simplicity of function, and a modicum of practice and it might make an effective home-defense weapon. It's pretty quick to reload a break-open gun.
No moving action means it's shorter and quicker handling than either a pump or semi in close quarters.
While it's not for everyone, I wouldn't poo-poo the idea either.
Are you serious? Its a double barrel that means 2 rounds and your done. That means your dead if the encounter needs more than a couple shells. Sorry but this is a no go.
Quick to reload again you are joking. Try reloading one of these after being charged with adrenalin. If you need to reload it it means you had to fire 2 shots already, the average home owner is not going to be able to reload this thing under stress unless he or she is a cowboy action shooter with a lot of practice. Stick with a pump or an auto for social uses and leave the doubles for birds and playing Cowboys and Indians.
The average person who is not that skilled is far better off with a pump or an auto. At least then they get 5 to 8 rounds before having to reload. I have to question the judgement of anyone who would recommend a double barrel shotgun as a defensive weapon in this day and age. Its the same as recommending a single action revolver.
Pat
Gutshot John
09-01-09, 08:42
Are you serious? Its a double barrel that means 2 rounds and your done. That means your dead if the encounter needs more than a couple shells. Sorry but this is a no go.
I am serious and EVERY gun runs out of ammo. If ammo is your concern than a pump is still not adequate. Most people don't own "tacticool" shotguns. Most people with a pump will buy or have a sporting gun. That's 5 rounds (TOPS) assuming they don't have a plug allowing them to load only three rounds.
Uhm no, running out of ammo doesn't mean "you're dead". Guns run dry, it's a fact of life.
Quick to reload again you are joking. Try reloading one of these after being charged with adrenalin. If you need to reload it it means you had to fire 2 shots already, the average home owner is not going to be able to reload this thing under stress unless he or she is a cowboy action shooter with a lot of practice. Stick with a pump or an auto for social uses and leave the doubles for birds and playing Cowboys and Indians.
Sorry but you don't know what you're talking about. The "average home owner" is going to have a far more difficult time reloading a pump/auto than a double-barrel.
Even EXPERIENCED shooters short-stroke a pump under time pressure, never mind a gun fight. What do you think is going to happen to the inexperienced shooter? What's the difference between an empty gun and one that has malfunctioned? You can reload one. The other is as useful as a paperweight without remediation.
A double-action is MUCH quicker than a pump to reload. Sorry but it's true. Cops have been speed loading two-rounds into revolvers for years.
The average person who is not that skilled is far better off with a pump or an auto. At least then they get 5 to 8 rounds before having to reload. I have to question the judgement of anyone who would recommend a double barrel shotgun as a defensive weapon in this day and age. Its the same as recommending a single action revolver.
Pat
5-8 rounds? Assuming it's a tactical gun...see above.
Seriously why don't you check out the video I posted. Thunder Ranch seems to think it even a single-barrel break can be a decent choice, so if you want to question my judgment, tell me why you don't question theirs? More importantly what do you know more that they don't? I have to question the judgment of anyone who dismisses any weapon out of ignorance. In fact I'd probably feel very comfortable facing them in a gunfight armed with a double-barrel.
Lastly why don't you take the time to read what was written? I didn't say it was the best choice, or even the only choice. I certainly didn't say it was the best choice for anyone here. I simply said it was a legitimate choice for SOME people. Why is it "all or nothing"?
Read and UNDERSTAND before you post.
I am serious and EVERY gun runs out of ammo. If ammo is your concern than a pump is still not adequate. Most people don't own "tacticool" shotguns. Most people with a pump will buy or have a sporting gun. That's 5 rounds (TOPS) assuming they don't have a plug allowing them to load only three rounds.
Uhm no, running out of ammo doesn't mean "you're dead". Guns run dry, it's a fact of life.
So you see no difference between a gun tha holds 2 rounds and a gun that holds 6? Using your logic the army would never have bothered going from a 20 round mag to a 30 round mag for the M-16 because "Guns run dry, it's a fact of life." Using your logic the army had no reason to go from the M1 Garand with an 8 round block clip to an M-14 with a 20 round mag because "Guns run dry, it's a fact of life." Using your logic all Police departments wasted their time going from 6 shot revolvers to automatics that held 2 - 3 times the number of rounds because "Guns run dry, it's a fact of life."
Sorry but you don't know what you're talking about. The "average home owner" is going to have a far more difficult time reloading a pump/auto than a double-barrel.
But a pump shotgun can be had with an extended mag to allow it to hold a minimum of 6-7 rounds before reloading. You've created this illusion that the homeowner who previously could not work a pump gun without shortstroking is now able to reload a double barrel while under fire or close range attack, and remember to disengage the double's safety which automatically engages EACH TIME you close the breech.
Seriously why don't you check out the video I posted. Thunder Ranch seems to think it even a single-barrel break can be a decent choice, so if you want to question my judgment, tell me why you don't question theirs? More importantly what do you know more that they don't? I have to question the judgment of anyone who dismisses any weapon out of ignorance. In fact I'd probably feel very comfortable facing them in a gunfight armed with a double-barrel.
No one is shooting at Clint or rushing him in that Thunder Ranch video. Recommending a single shot shotgun for home defense for anyone who can afford better is full-retard.
Massad Ayoob writes on single shot shotguns and doubles form his book Stressfire on p. 44.: "Single shot shotguns can only fire one shot at a time, and do not have a magazine or reservoir of additional shots. Since an estimated 40% of armed encounters involve more than one armed opponent, a single shot weapon leaves the user doomer from the start nearly half the time. In addition, one of the best trained American Police departments reports hits with only 58% of shots fired with their shotguns in action, further reducing the survival potential of someone armed with a single shot shotgun."
Apply that to a double barrelled shotgun and you are not much better equipped for multiple assailints, misses, attackers who require more than one round and a combination of the above.
Ayoob also talks about a chief who wanted to replace the pump guns in the cruisers with double barrels: "I explained that two-shot guns for defense only made sense for people with two-digit IQs."
Gutshot, you disproved your own argument by posting that video. Clint quite CLEARLY states that competence with a single or double takes training, which is precisely the opposite of what you've been claiming all along.
BTW, you need to cool it. I don't expect my "ass to be kissed" simply because I can see and commented on the absurdity of your argument, that you so quickly resorted to invective speaks volumes about you. I can see that I was correct in editing my post to delete my response and leave you to it. Though I try to avoid the use of logical fallacies, you may want to consider why you are a minority of one in this thread.
Redmanfms,
Yup, and we have a person or two in the handgun section who believe that they can carry a handgun without a round in the chamber and will always have time to rack a round into the chamber before being attacked or while being attacked.
I thought that only happened at other forums. :confused:
Redmanfms,
Yup, and we have a person or two in the handgun section who believe that they can carry a handgun without a round in the chamber and will always have time to rack a round into the chamber before being attacked or while being attacked.
I thought that only happened at other forums. :confused:
I actually edited my post to respond to Gutshot after watching that video he posted, but I concur.
Maybe he'll go back and actually watch and listen to Clint.
Alaskapopo
09-01-09, 14:00
I am serious and EVERY gun runs out of ammo. If ammo is your concern than a pump is still not adequate. Most people don't own "tacticool" shotguns. Most people with a pump will buy or have a sporting gun. That's 5 rounds (TOPS) assuming they don't have a plug allowing them to load only three rounds.
Uhm no, running out of ammo doesn't mean "you're dead". Guns run dry, it's a fact of life.
Sorry but you don't know what you're talking about. The "average home owner" is going to have a far more difficult time reloading a pump/auto than a double-barrel.
Even EXPERIENCED shooters short-stroke a pump under time pressure, never mind a gun fight. What do you think is going to happen to the inexperienced shooter? What's the difference between an empty gun and one that has malfunctioned? You can reload one. The other is as useful as a paperweight without remediation.
A double-action is MUCH quicker than a pump to reload. Sorry but it's true. Cops have been speed loading two-rounds into revolvers for years.
5-8 rounds? Assuming it's a tactical gun...see above.
Seriously why don't you check out the video I posted. Thunder Ranch seems to think it even a single-barrel break can be a decent choice, so if you want to question my judgment, tell me why you don't question theirs? More importantly what do you know more that they don't? I have to question the judgment of anyone who dismisses any weapon out of ignorance. In fact I'd probably feel very comfortable facing them in a gunfight armed with a double-barrel.
Lastly why don't you take the time to read what was written? I didn't say it was the best choice, or even the only choice. I certainly didn't say it was the best choice for anyone here. I simply said it was a legitimate choice for SOME people. Why is it "all or nothing"?
Read and UNDERSTAND before you post.
I read your post but understanding it is impossible unless one is slightly off in the head. A single barrel or a double barrel shotgun are simple stupid choices for defense unless they are the only guns available. Frankly I question a lot of stuff that comes out of Thunder Rance. Clint is a good instructor but he is not a God. He recommends ball ammo which is almost as crazy as what you are suggesting with using a double barrel shotgun.
Also experienced shooters don't short stroke. I am responsible for training 10 fellow officers with firearms and I have not seen a short stroke malfunction with any of them in the last 4 years. That includes the ones with the weakest firearms skills. The short stroking problem is greatly overstated and far less common that you would have us believe. However the average home owner is simple not going to have time to reload a double under stress unless they are accomplished bird hunters or cowboy action shooters that are very familiar with that system. I have a double that I use for clays its fun but no way would I use it for self defense unless I had to. Also 2 rounds is a trained in most schools as a minimum standard response. So your 2 rounds is good for just one bad guy. Then your out. If you have a standard 870 with a 4 round mags you have 4 to 5 rounds at the start before you run dry.
Also cops have not speedloaded into revolvers without speed loaders in decades and the technique was not all that good when it was used. Autos are dominate now for a reason. Those who use revolvers use speed loaders or moon clips and not dump pouches now. I think part of the problem here is you are living in the past. Why not recommend a flint lock for defense.
Your recommendation of a double barrel for defense shows that you don't know what you are talking about.
Pat
Gutshot John
09-01-09, 14:05
Since this thread has become more about proving whether I'm an idiot or insane more than arguing the merits or shortcomings of a particular choice I'll bow out.
Believe what you wish, buy what you want, however don't mistake your pedantic condescension for wisdom.
Alaskapopo
09-01-09, 14:13
Since this thread has become more about proving whether I'm an idiot or insane more than arguing the merits or shortcomings of a particular choice I'll bow out.
Believe what you wish, buy what you want, however don't mistake your pedantic condescension for wisdom.
I don't think your an idiot. I am arguing strongly against your position that a double barrel is a acceptable defense gun. I did not mean to insult you personally. For that I apologize.
Pat
prestonoconnor
09-01-09, 15:36
I have a savage/stevens 311 double for the wife. It is easy for her to load and fire. It is stored empty with 2 buckshot rubberbanded to the pistol grip and also has a buttcuff of buck. I have an 870 with a surefire forend.
Well this thread is done... If anyone wishes to start a new thread on side by side shotguns for home defense, thats fine, but this one has run its course...
B
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